At what point are we going to say it's the manager?

The way some people here talk about United, you'd think the club's had multiple relegations in the last decade. The last league finishes are 3rd, 6th, 2nd, and 3rd. The squad is not enough good to compete for the major trophies (PL, CL) but it's not a dumpster fire.
 
Zen86 said:
Nobody is saying it’s hopeless. But the point is nicely summarised by yourself in the bolded.

The same bunch of “clowns” hiring managers are the same bunch of clowns making decisions in every other aspect of the club. They can’t even just sell the club without a big, drawn out fiasco.
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Don't get me wrong, if Utd were currently in 3rd or 4th spot and pundits/fans were bemoaning the fact we weren't challenging for the title then I'd be using all the same arguments as you to defend the manager.

In fact, I have started threads previously going back to Jose and OGS, defending them, talking about chaos at Board level, poor recruitment, lack of autonomy etc...

The problem for EtH in my view is two-fold...

1) He's not dealing with Ed Woodward and has a far greater degree of autonomy RE : players in and players out than Jose and OGS ever had. He's seen off Ronaldo and DDG on free transfers, he's frozen out Sancho and Varane. All of the signings have his influence written all over them. He can't say he hasn't been backed or supported.

2) His results haven't even been as good as Jose's or OGS' results. The media effectively did for those two by whipping the fans into title-frenzy after the two 2nd place finishes. The reality is, in an era when we have a cheat code team facing 115 charges winning the title year-in, year-out, 2nd might be as good as a title-win. Jose said as much. I defended him because I exactly know what he meant. Ole finished 2nd and only lost a Europa League final on penalties. I defended him because I knew the challenges he faced.

EtH is not being asked to win a title. He's being asked to show that he has a plan, show signs of progression in that plan on the pitch and not keep being embarrassed by Brighton, Brentford and Bournemouth. He's failing on all three fronts - likeable bloke though he undoubtedly is.
 
Scandi Red said:
How can anyone who has followed United for the last 10 years claim that our struggles are almost exclusively the fault of the manager? Of course the manager must take a good part of the blame, but he's just one piece of the puzzle.
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I don’t think anyone is ?
 
How many managers are we going to go through before we realise it’s the people above them?
 
400m spent, "problem" players like Ronaldo and Sancho gotten rid of, and we've gone sideways in 18 months AT BEST. Still getting shown up by the likes of Brighton, Palace, Bournemouth. 1 point picked up from top 10 away and now even our home form is a joke.

ETH ran out of excuses long ago and should've been sacked yesterday.
 
It's just so hard to tell with all that's wrong with the club. I'd be inclined to wait until Jim gets his people involved and allow the (hopefully capable people he puts in place, Blanc & Mitchell?) to be the judge.

It's hard to tell the cause of a fire when the house is still ablaze.
 
Why is so crazy to think that you can't hire five bad managers in a row? What have they accomplished since then? United seem to be the only team where the owners can be used as a running excuse regardless of what you see on the pitch.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
The way some people here talk about United, you'd think the club's had multiple relegations in the last decade. The last league finishes are 3rd, 6th, 2nd, and 3rd. The squad is not enough good to compete for the major trophies (PL, CL) but it's not a dumpster fire.
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But it's coming after winning 13 out of 21 leagues previously, after never being worse than 3rd for two decades. If Real Madrid finished 4th even one season and got knocked out of the CL group stage, there would be crisis stations and white hankies, much worse than has been at United.
 
MackRobinson said:
Why is so crazy to think that you can't hire five bad managers in a row? What have they accomplished since then? United seem to be the only team where the owners can be used as a running excuse regardless of what you see on the pitch.
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Exactly, look at Liverpool. They went through countless managers before Klopp, they didn’t hold on to Rodgers and tell the board to let him be ruthless, they took the opportunity to get a better manager and if one becomes available which they will we need to do the same.
 
The entire setup is wrong!

We can focus on any chain in the lop and pick fault.

This season has been the perfect storm with everything going wrong in all directions.
 
Dec9003 said:
Exactly, look at Liverpool. They went through countless managers before Klopp, they didn’t hold on to Rodgers and tell the board to let him be ruthless, they took the opportunity to get a better manager and if one becomes available which they will we need to do the same.
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The owners are bad, but the way people talk about them, you think they have the club in administration and aren't allowing transfers. If we can admit that Klopp or Pep would do much better in the current setup then we have to admit the quality of the manager can be improved.
 
KeanoMagicHat said:
But it's coming after winning 13 out of 21 leagues previously, after never being worse than 3rd for two decades. If Real Madrid finished 4th even one season and got knocked out of the CL group stage, there would be crisis stations and white hankies, much worse than has been at United.
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Don't get me wrong, I think United fans have plenty to be upset about.

I just think there's a big leap from 'you can't compete for a major title with this squad' to 'you can't compete for three games in a row with this squad.'
 
acnumber9 said:
Do they need to be world beaters to not lose 3-0 at home to Bournemouth? Do they need to be world beaters to not finish bottom of a Champions League group containing Copenhagen? They’re not good enough to win the league, including a large number of his own signings, but they’re more than good enough to not be in the state we’re currently in. The players aren’t choosing to play without a midfield.
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Combination of both. Tactically we are terrible, but we also have a mix of newer players that aren’t good enough and veterans that are mentally weak.
 
There is blame for all parties (Glazers, players and manager) but the biggest portion should be on the Glazers. They have mismanaged the club for so long and we are in a terrible state.

Ultimately the players are the ones on the pitch and the ones who need to perform. Ten Hag also need to take responsibility as for now he is making some questionable decisions on team selection and in game management.
 
Our club is the perfect shit show! We have an ownership who have never cared about the club and just want to bleed the club dry. We have a board of people who facilitate that and nothing else. The few football people who remain on the board have little or no say. People forget when SAF was running the club he had some really good chairmen who looked at things from football & Business perspective and made decisions that benefited both. We now have a playing staff who are bang average and an academy and scouting system that has been in decline for years. The culture of the club is rotten now and it infests any new players bringing them down to mediocrity and the fans blame the manager. The fans are part of problem too because we all seen this freefall to mediocrity yet we all bought the new jerseys, go to games and bankrolled the shit show!! The protests while meaning well have been a shambles! And the lunacy of fans comparing the job ETH has done to De zerbi at Brighton or Iraola at Bournemouth have no clue what they are on about. Those players at those clubs while on decent money are hungry and see these clubs as a stepping stone to a big club. The players at UTD think they have made it., are on crazy wages and sponsorship and followed by people who tell them that. There is no Silver bullet to UTD's problems until the culture changes from top down. Owners who see success as fundamental to profits. A board who see that by investing in everything from the ground up will generate hungry players that can play for the club. And a fanbase who dont just whine and bitch but actually protest when they see we are being run into ground and that includes boycotting sponsors, not buying merch and OT being half empty for games !!
 
Valencia Shin Crosses said:
Combination of both. Tactically we are terrible, but we also have a mix of newer players that aren’t good enough and veterans that are mentally weak.
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He is responsible for those newer players being here. It’s also become fairly clear his man management is abysmal. None of this absolves players of their responsibility but he’s the manager. He can’t take credit for winning and not take blame for losing. It’s no surprise our form plummeted when Casemiro and Rashford’s did.
 
Lentwood said:
Don't get me wrong, if Utd were currently in 3rd or 4th spot and pundits/fans were bemoaning the fact we weren't challenging for the title then I'd be using all the same arguments as you to defend the manager.

In fact, I have started threads previously going back to Jose and OGS, defending them, talking about chaos at Board level, poor recruitment, lack of autonomy etc...

The problem for EtH in my view is two-fold...

1) He's not dealing with Ed Woodward and has a far greater degree of autonomy RE : players in and players out than Jose and OGS ever had. He's seen off Ronaldo and DDG on free transfers, he's frozen out Sancho and Varane. All of the signings have his influence written all over them. He can't say he hasn't been backed or supported.

2) His results haven't even been as good as Jose's or OGS' results. The media effectively did for those two by whipping the fans into title-frenzy after the two 2nd place finishes. The reality is, in an era when we have a cheat code team facing 115 charges winning the title year-in, year-out, 2nd might be as good as a title-win. Jose said as much. I defended him because I exactly know what he meant. Ole finished 2nd and only lost a Europa League final on penalties. I defended him because I knew the challenges he faced.

EtH is not being asked to win a title. He's being asked to show that he has a plan, show signs of progression in that plan on the pitch and not keep being embarrassed by Brighton, Brentford and Bournemouth. He's failing on all three fronts - likeable bloke though he undoubtedly is.
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I’m not defending him. He’s got his flaws and he’s made plenty of mistakes, as they all did. All of our managers have deserved to go when they did, because that’s how culpability in football generally goes. But winning is a club effort, and we are very, very poor behind the scenes. That’s what a disinterested ownership that doesn’t actually care gets you.

And it will be the same with the next one. We’re not going to land an Alex Ferguson who will own and transform every aspect of the club, that person doesn’t exist anymore. Managers are coaches, and the next one will have to make do with the same disinterested supporting cast.
 
He has his faults, and he might not be the answer long term. But to start the blame with him is not warranted in my book. There are players in this team and have overstayed their welcome, and there are owners who have drained the money and the winning mentality out of this club. If the football structure doesnt change, and money doesnt come in to revamp the squad drastically, no manager can get us back at the top. Changing the manager would be doing exactly what we've done for 10 years, so why would the outcome be any different.
 
acnumber9 said:
He is responsible for those newer players being here. It’s also become fairly clear his man management is abysmal. None of this absolves players of their responsibility but he’s the manager. He can’t take credit for winning and not take blame for losing. It’s no surprise our form plummeted when Casemiro and Rashford’s did.
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I agree completely. It’s why I’m in the camp of being full on fire sale at this point. I could deal with a couple hundred of rocky seasons with a full on rebuild of new promising young players and manager under Ratcliffe coming in. Anything to break the cycle with the same faces and BS of the past decade at this point.
 
When will we learn? How managers need to be sacked before ownership takes responsibility? This place is a graveyard for managers and players to come and die. Is Ten Hag responsible?? Absolutely and probably should go soon but nothing will change and we will discuss the same thing in a year or 2 with the next manager.
 
This Manager got 3rd place last season. A cup another cup final and imo should have won Europa league...now he's losing games hand over fist...
He is partly responsible for what's happening..
 
I'm still not sure if ETH should be sacked or not (and what's saving him at the moment is the fact there is no obvious available replacement waiting in the wings), but what I do know is that he should have no say in any United signings for the foreseeable future.

The amounts spent on Onana and Antony combined, players ETH knew inside out and back to front from Ajax, would be enough to get some managers the sack.

You could argue that a properly run football club with a top class DOF would not have sanctioned those signings, true. But it still points to an appalling lack of judgement of players on the part of Ten Hag.
 
Valencia Shin Crosses said:
I agree completely. It’s why I’m in the camp of being full on fire sale at this point. I could deal with a couple hundred of rocky seasons with a full on rebuild of new promising young players and manager under Ratcliffe coming in. Anything to break the cycle with the same faces and BS of the past decade at this point.
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The fact we need to replace so many is part of the reason the manager needs to go. He’s a terrible judge of talent.
 
The old saying is that it’s cheaper to sack the manager than players. We must be close to disproving it. New manager new players. I don’t know enough about football to say that ten hag is the right or wrong man but surely the problems are above the manager and in certain players who would have had 4 or 5 managers in their time here
 
"It's the players" isn't an excuse and actually makes the manager look even worse. Let's not forget ETH's predecessor wanted to give him a blunt briefing on the state of the squad, but instead ETH decided to ignore him and give the players yet another clean slate.
 
The Oracle said:
Tactics, formations, playing players out of position, terrible signings, falling out with senior players...

...making substitutions too late, overplaying players, doesn't inspire the team during matches.

Just not good enough.
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Exactly!

I have read posts about who else is at fault. But I don't recall any posts about what ETH is good at. Not in the past, at Ajax. Today, here with us. What is he good at? It seems he has failed in all aspects of management.
 
Given we've had multiple managers all with the same rubbish players, board & staff and ALL saying the same thing about the state of the club (including ex players) I don't think we should continue pointing fingers at the manager.

Some things are on Ten Hag, but given this is not a new problem and has been evident for years putting it solely on him is unfair. These players want cuddled and told they are great. Their ego is too big and the club structure keeps allowing it to happen.

Nothing will change, until there are drastic changes above.
 
Big Ben Foster said:
"It's the players" isn't an excuse and actually makes the manager look even worse. Let's not forget ETH's predecessor wanted to give him a blunt briefing on the state of the squad, but instead ETH decided to ignore him and give the players yet another clean slate.
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Yeah there’s truth in that, but surely any manager will want to appraise players himself. It’s been well mentioned in this forum about how hard it is to get rid of players at Utd and Antony Martial is the dictionary definition of that
 
100 said:
It's....everything.

Players aren't good enough.
Manager isn't good enough.
Ultimately the people that oversee what's going on, and form a structure by which players/managers are employed, aren't good enough. And they're the ones that are proving difficult to shift.
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/thread
 
jasT1981 said:
Given we've had multiple managers all with the same rubbish players, board & staff and ALL saying the same thing about the state of the club (including ex players) I don't think we should continue pointing fingers at the manager.

Some things are on Ten Hag, but given this is not a new problem and has been evident for years putting it solely on him is unfair. These players want cuddled and told they are great. Their ego is too big and the club structure keeps allowing it to happen.

Nothing will change, until there are drastic changes above.
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What is ETH good at?
 
KeanoMagicHat said:
But it's coming after winning 13 out of 21 leagues previously, after never being worse than 3rd for two decades. If Real Madrid finished 4th even one season and got knocked out of the CL group stage, there would be crisis stations and white hankies, much worse than has been at United.
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Ten Hag would had been sacked already in Real Madrid so I get the frustration when the performances aren't improving and the team isn't competing for the major trophies.
 
Acheron said:
Ten Hag would had been sacked already in Real Madrid so I get the frustration when the performances aren't improving and the team isn't competing for the major trophies.
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He would have been sacked already at most big clubs in Europe. It's a long-term legacy of Ferguson's unique story of escaping the sack and setting up a dynasty, and then Ferguson saying you must back the manager when he left, that United are very patient with managers. But every case is different, there is no guarantee it will get any better with patience.
 
in over his head , but dont let for one minute think these parasites called the glazers arent responsible - any other club the place would have been burned to the ground by now , instead we have merchandise flying out the door
 
KeanoMagicHat said:
He would have been sacked already at most big clubs in Europe. It's a long-term legacy of Ferguson's unique story of escaping the sack and setting up a dynasty, and then Ferguson saying you must back the manager when he left, that United are very patient with managers. But every case is different, there is no guarantee it will get any better with patience.
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It's got feck all to do with Ferguson's story.

We've not given a single manager post-Fergie even three full seasons, and we're less than one and a half seasons into Ten Hag's tenure and he looks like very much like he'll be getting the boot this month.

Moyes didn't manage one full season. van Gaal got two, but was booted for failing to qualify for the Champions League, despite having won us the FA Cup and qualified for the CL in his first season. Mourinho and Solskjaer both got two, and were both sacked less than halfway through their third, despite having won the EFL Cup and Europa League, then managing a 2nd place finish, and managing the first successive top four finishes (3rd and 2nd) since Ferguson retired, respectively. Ten Hag finished 3rd and won us the EFL Cup, and despite how shite we've been this season, has still managed to win enough points to have us sat 6th, still within touching distance of the CL places.

You could probably count on the fingers of one hand the number of fans that think any of the previous managers should have been given more time, and you'd struggle to find many with any strong opposition to the suggestion that Ten Hag gets sacked now.

The issue with the fans isn't there there's loads of them thinking every manager could be Ferguson with enough time, it's that there's loads of completely deluded fans who hold the idea that, 10 years on from Ferguson retiring, United are in a remotely comparable state to clubs like Real Madrid.

One has enjoyed two EFL Cup wins, an FA Cup win, and a Europa League win in that time, with their best league finishes being two in a distant 2nd and two in 3rd, and the best they've managed in the Champions League being two appearances in the quarter final. The other has won the Champions League five times, three league titles, and two Copa del Reys in the same time frame.

Of course Real Madrid would sack a manager when they're sat in 6th, more than a few games into the season, because they're a far better team than Manchester United, and have only been in that situation once in the past 10 years. United have basically been in this position in 8 or 9 of the last 10 seasons. Sometimes it's got better, sometimes it hasn't.

However, if we shit ourselves and hit the reset button every time we have a rough patch, we're going to continue shitting ourselves and hitting that reset button again and again over the next 10 years, just as we have over the past 10. There's a massive middle-ground between giving someone a bit of time to get over a hump, and giving them six years just because. No one argues for the latter.
 
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