Ask The Opposition 2013/14: Everton (Premier League - Away)
- Thread starter Damien
- Start date
I'm not sure why Martinez's loan signings are being used as a stick to beat him with.
God forbid managers bring in players they don't have a realistic chance of signing permanently on loan instead. Scum of the earth.
God forbid managers bring in players they don't have a realistic chance of signing permanently on loan instead. Scum of the earth.
What does that even mean? Supporters on forums are not normal or normal supporters become abnormal on forums?
Both
Supporters on forums are most definitely abnormal :-D
Ungrateful bunch. We'll bring them back to earth on Sunday.
It's not that he wasn't doing his job right. It's just for them to progress, they needed to part ways with him. He was keeping his team at the level they were supposed to be at. He was doing his job. That's hardly a great accomplishment, it's just par for the job. It's expected. Just like it's expected that we challenge for the title, as that's where our wage budget and financial power and fan base dictates that we should be. Will he get some legend status for simply doing the job? No way. Will the fans love him because of that? Nope. For that, you need to go above and beyond, which is when you'll get the love of the fans and it'll be seen as doing a great job. Martinez for example is doing a great job with Everton this season, and he's got them playing in a different way to how Moyes did. An exciting way, positive minded way.
What other managers actually manage what? Keeping their club at the level they should be at? A good many actually. How many get their teams playing good football and punching above their weight? Shouldn't those be the managers we think about, not a manager who keeps a midtable team at midtable, playing boring football?
Which category do you fall in?
You were talking in the context of Moyes at Everton, no point changing the focus with stuff like 'this isn't the type of manager we should be looking at'.
And yes, keeping the club consistently at above the level (not massively, but still above) their transfers spend and wages dictated for so long is a great achievement in today's fickle world of football.
Anyway I'm going to stay out of this argument now, the best point anyone's had so far is that it's way to early to judge.
I'm an exception.
What did he do for them? You have to take the view that Everton are some small time Oldham or Wigan to assume that they aren't exactly the kind of team who could be consistently pushing at the door of the "top tier" of the Premier League. Moyes was consistent in achieving what Everton fans would think was their expectation. Someone has to finish fifth and sixth every year, no reason why it wouldn't be a club exactly like Everton.
Everton fans were obviously supportive of their teams achievements during the Moyes era, but I know a lot of blues, and they were never entirely happy with Moyes style of play - the criticism you see here is pretty much exactly what they were saying at the time.
I feel like i'll need to take a week off from the Caf if we lose after reading that/replies to it. 
I feel like i'll need to take a week off from the Caf if we lose after reading that/replies to it.
You're one of the normal/okay ones mate
Shamwow, stop being such a knob. What did he do for them? He won nothing and had them knocking at the door of top four, making it one year when Liverpool took their eye of the ball while winning the fcuking Champions league.
He never could win a big match for them, never won a final, bot beat in numerous semi-finals.
You have to take the position that Everton are a total outsider like Swansea or something to really elevate his achievement, and they aren't. Look at what they achieved in the mid to late 80's during a period when Liverpool were in their pomp, and you realise that Everton are not a small time, club and they are exactly the kind of team who should be knocking on the door.
Seriously mate, I can't even be arsed arguing with such retarded shite as what you are writing at the moment. I'll just stick with
Stop calling me names...
- Saved them from relegation
- Stabilised them
- Consistent finishes at the top end of what they would realistically expect
- Got them into the Europe
I like the bullet points, it makes it look like each one of this minor "achievements" were different and somehow unique!
But yes! Wow, what a superstar! Won nothing, did okay, were definitely not the best team, but also were not the worst. Next stop - manage the biggest football team on the planet!
(p.s you suggested I was retarded, so don't be so sensitive. If you are going to dish it out, learn to take it!)
Of the clubs currently in the Premiership, Everton's average net spend per season between 2003/4 and 2013/14 (i.e. the Moyes era) is the *lowest* of any: http://transferleague.co.uk/league-tables/transfer-league-table-2003-to-date.html
In fact, they recouped more than they spent.
In 2012/13, their wage bill was the 10th highest, lower than Sunderland's, and about the same as Fulham's: http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2013/apr/18/premier-league-club-accounts-debt
In that period, Moyes finished 4th once, 5th twice, 6th twice, and 7th twice.
Some people say he was a mid-table manager who took a mid-table team into mid-table. But that seems like utter nonsense to me. Finishing in the top 6 on 5 different occasions is not 'mid-table', and he regularly had Everton in positions quite a bit higher than their transfer/wage budget would suggest they were entitled to finish in.
He also sustained this level consistently over a number of years, something which Martinez - as well as he's done so far - still has to prove he can do.
I told you they are a bunch of cnuts
Agreed.
Something from the newbie thread:
In response to BigDunc9, i agree that one of Moyes' strong points was that and with us it was crucial at times.
Looking at Martinez's history with Wigan he picked up McCarthy, Diame, Gomez, Moses, Alcaraz, Maloney, Kone for decent prices and all were great players for them (Moses, McCarthy, Alcaraz and Diame are all good PL players, with McCarthy being the stand-out and one of the best CMs in the league), so i do think he has an eye for them, it will be different picking bargains for an Everton side in comparison to Wigan and it will be a question of whether he can step up. He did want Stones at Wigan though before he joined us.
Looking at Martinez's history with Wigan he picked up McCarthy, Diame, Gomez, Moses, Alcaraz, Maloney, Kone for decent prices and all were great players for them (Moses, McCarthy, Alcaraz and Diame are all good PL players, with McCarthy being the stand-out and one of the best CMs in the league), so i do think he has an eye for them, it will be different picking bargains for an Everton side in comparison to Wigan and it will be a question of whether he can step up. He did want Stones at Wigan though before he joined us.
Right. Pot, kettle, black!
Yep, I agree. McCarthy and Stones in particular are interesting as both look top/future top players for a good price, and though he didn't get Stones, he was a player Martinez wanted at Wigan.
Don't take it so personally. I just think people talk a lot differently on the echo chamber that is your average football club fan forum. And you can't exactly argue that people don't act like prats less in real life than they do on the internet.
I was not taking it personally but that was a senseless remark. You can dismiss almost anything on the internet with that thinking. Basically if it does not suit one's agenda it is called out as being made by fans who are not normal.
Anyway, I think it will be interesting to see Martinez next term. If he does not get Lukaku and Barry again, he might struggle. But if he can get a good striker and get Barry permanently, I think they can improve on this season.
Aye. Silly of them. I wanted McCarthy here instead of Fellaini.
Okay, the long and short of it is that the Everton fans believe he had taken them as far as he could have. I believe that he had taken them as far as they could have been taken. You can complain about the aesthetics of his football but he had them finishing pretty high up the table almost every season on minimal budgets. For all the hoopla around them this season, I can still see them finishing sixth or seventh, which is where they generally finished under Moyes. So Everton fans, be happy about Martinez and the style of football he has you playing but don't try to play down what David Moyes has achieved at the club.
It's still true.
Regardless, I genuinely hope Martinez does well, nice guy, plays good football, excellent fashion sense. You can't not like him. Everton... meh.
Really can't not like that guy. I tried to hate him for a while when the Everton fans started to get on Moyes' back, but it's just not possible.
Utterly bizarre level of optimism from a club that never wins anything.
I thought that. Some real delusion there.
Let's bring them down to earth on Sunday!
I said what you said was retarded which was after you called me a twat. Then you called me a cnut.
Back to the actual point, they are all distinct challenges and achievements. Just because you started posting sarcastically doesn't make it any less true.
Anyway, here's a question. Why are people like you completely incapable of sticking to the actual point of debate? Just because I quite clearly showed that you were talking absolute Grade-A bollocks when you said Moyes never did anything for Everton, you instantly move onto "he's not good enough for United" as a counterargument. Something completely irrelevant to the point and not something I necessarily disagree with. Nice one.
Alright so we are all agreed, Moyes did really well at Everton but has done shite at United.
So what went wrong? Why couldn't he keep us in the Top 4 if he's such a Messiah? He took Everton from a no mark to top 6 in one season but he can't keep the Champions in the Top 4. The net spend at Everton was the lowest in the league, yet he's spunked £65M on a player who he should know as well as anyone yet he can't get the best out of and another who was one of the best players in the league but he played him out of position and only played him in the correct position due to injuries. He's potentially going to spend another £100M+ to see if he can 'try' to get the Champions in the Top 4, but he managed to get Everton in the Top 4 spending a fraction of that amount.
He's either forgot everything he learned at Everton on that holiday in June, or completely out of his depth and shouldn't be anywhere near an elite team like United.
During all that time at Everton, when a host of top jobs became available, he was never, ever, in the frame. Considering how often the Spuds job came up, I'm amazed he never had a go at it. Neither did he move to his beloved Bundeslega, which would have been a fantastic opportunity to broaden his experience.
He was in his comfort zone at Everton and now he's out of it, he's little boy lost.
So what went wrong? Why couldn't he keep us in the Top 4 if he's such a Messiah? He took Everton from a no mark to top 6 in one season but he can't keep the Champions in the Top 4. The net spend at Everton was the lowest in the league, yet he's spunked £65M on a player who he should know as well as anyone yet he can't get the best out of and another who was one of the best players in the league but he played him out of position and only played him in the correct position due to injuries. He's potentially going to spend another £100M+ to see if he can 'try' to get the Champions in the Top 4, but he managed to get Everton in the Top 4 spending a fraction of that amount.
He's either forgot everything he learned at Everton on that holiday in June, or completely out of his depth and shouldn't be anywhere near an elite team like United.
During all that time at Everton, when a host of top jobs became available, he was never, ever, in the frame. Considering how often the Spuds job came up, I'm amazed he never had a go at it. Neither did he move to his beloved Bundeslega, which would have been a fantastic opportunity to broaden his experience.
He was in his comfort zone at Everton and now he's out of it, he's little boy lost.
They are such short term ungrateful prats. 10 years of dedicated service vs 2 misjudged comments. Idiots. Scousers gotta scouse I suppose.
To be fair, their comments have pretty much been consistent since he left. It's not like they showed Moyes a lot of love and expected him to succeed with United. Most of the comments I read predicted he would fail miserably with us. If you read some of their old threads when he was still their manager, their complaints about the man pretty much echo the Cafe's. David Moyes will never change.
It's hard to argue with this. It's certainly looking that way from this season.
Hopefully he'll learn from the experience though. He's clearly got some talent to get to where he is and to get Everton to where they were/are. Football is a crazy thing.
I have always wondered why Moyes(if he is such a genius) stayed at Everton so long. You would think that a "brilliant football mind" like his would have been approached by the big clubs. You think Martinez would last a long time at Everton if he was successful? NO. Big clubs would be fighting for his services.