Arsenal 2023/24 - Born to be runner up

AlexiV said:
Fachts
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Yeah, I did go full Rafa Benitez for a minute there. I just legitimately have no idea what he’s going on about.

Have we started this season as well as we did last season? No. The first half of last season was the best in our entire history and one of the best of all time from any team. Ever. Of course it’s a statistical outlier. That doesn’t mean you completely disregard it as a data point - particularly as we’re one of the youngest squads and the vast majority of the players who achieved that level of consistency are still at the club.

You’d think my argument is that Arsenal are world-beaters from the way he’s talking, as opposed to saying we’re legitimate challengers. Funnily enough, I’m having a parallel discussion with @the_cliff which is pretty much the complete opposite - they seem to think I should be dissatisfied with trophyless seasons from here on out as we’ve now established ourselves as challengers and expectations should rise accordingly.
 
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Daydreamer said:
I think you’d have to ask Liverpool fans if they were happy with their team’s performance at the time. My brother is a a Liverpool fan and he was pleased with their efforts that season… so there was at least one.

I’m not sure what you’re looking for here; I thought I gave a fairly detailed response. This feels a little like the posts at the end of last season where United fans were saying Arsenal fans would swap places with them because they United won a trophy, Arsenal didn’t and both teams qualified for the CL. I wouldn't take that swap if offered and was basically told I was lying - which I found kind of funny.

I was happy with my team last year and we finished 2nd to officially the best team on the planet (who may well have cheated to become so). I was very unhappy with my team in 2016 when we finished 2nd to Leicester as we had far more resources than them and seriously underperformed.

TLDR - context matters.
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I think you've misunderstood me. I agree with you regarding the bolded btw. My questioning was off the basis of what you'd consider a good season tbh. There's some pressure that seems to be on Arteta at the minute and my first post was basically giving the reason he's under pressure. You may have a different opinion but a lot of Arsenal fans are starting to question Arteta whether he's the man that can take them to win a title. I feel the reason he's already under some pressure despite still being in a decent position in the league was due to your performances last season. If you scraped 4th last season the expectations would be different and Arteta wouldn't be under as much pressure after only 3-4 bad results but because of your performances last season expectation has changed.
 
the_cliff said:
I think you've misunderstood me. I agree with you regarding the bolded btw. My questioning was off the basis of what you'd consider a good season tbh. There's some pressure that seems to be on Arteta at the minute and my first post was basically giving the reason he's under pressure. You may have a different opinion but a lot of Arsenal fans are starting to question Arteta whether he's the man that can take them to win a title. I feel the reason he's already under some pressure despite still being in a decent position in the league was due to your performances last season. If you scraped 4th last season the expectations would be different and Arteta wouldn't be under as much pressure after only 3-4 bad results but because of your performances last season expectation has changed.
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Ah, fair enough.

I’d say I tend towards patience with Managers, particularly if the performances give reason for hope. I wanted Wenger to stay. I think Emery’s time at Arsenal would have been very different had we bought him a prime Zaha rather than breaking our transfer record for Pepe (a decision so bad the club fired our Sanhelli and set up an internal investigation for corruption).

I believe in Arteta (and Edu) too. I don’t think there is too much shame in having a light trophy cabinet during this period of City’s domination, particularly if they are proven to have cheated to do it.

I know not every fan feels that way and those with the opposite viewpoint tend to make the most noise. But I have a hunch there’s probably quite a few who feel the same way, it’s just not a particularly newsworthy hot take to say “I want my team to maximise their potential with the resources available”.
 
Daydreamer said:
Yeah, I did go full Rafa Benitez for a minute there. I just legitimately have no idea what he’s going on about.
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It's actually incredibly straightforward if you weren't posturing and feigning faux-naïveté, he's just pointing out that the first half of last season appears more as an outlier in Arteta's career at Arsenal than the norm. It's a fair argument that you haven't answered to with your arrogant responses. In fairness, there's not much to respond to, it's just his opinion (which currently seems to be supported by results, but we'll see how your second half of the season pans out).
 
Daydreamer said:
You’d think my argument is that Arsenal are world-beaters from the way he’s talking, as opposed to saying we’re legitimate challengers.
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I don't think you are challengers, Arteta just doesn't have what it takes to go all the way. Would of been better off with Wenger still at the helm but that is another discussion.
 
I still have this pleasant feeling that Arsenal missed a huge chance in not appointing Vieira back then. Arteta has learned how to set up a possession dominant system, but he has never struck me as hardened enough to wrestle a league title away from a dominant Pep or Klopp team.
 
OldTrevil said:
I still have this pleasant feeling that Arsenal missed a huge chance in not appointing Vieira back then. Arteta has learned how to set up a possession dominant system, but he has never struck me as hardened enough to wrestle a league title away from a dominant Pep or Klopp team.
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Whereas Vieira has?
 
TheReligion said:
Mailsport

If true though that’s pretty embarrassing
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Smart actually.

After his "I'm ashamed to play in PL" whining, Odegaard got away with some slick basketball moves at Anfield.

Plus Saka's been diving a lot and this puts a doubt in the refs' mind.
 
Rooney in Paris said:
Whereas Vieira has?
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I've had this sense that, given a talented squad, Vieira is more likely to create a dogged team with a chip on its shoulder, ready to run though brick walls. Mainly from the football journey he's come through that was full of adversity, the level he reached and the type of person he is from the little I've heard: a nice guy but very determined and dogmatic in the way he wants to play. In a way he stucks me like a potentially less pragmatic Zidane.
 
OldTrevil said:
I've had this sense that, given a talented squad, Vieira is more likely to create a dogged team with a chip on its shoulder, ready to run though brick walls. Mainly from the football journey he's come through that was full of adversity, the level he reached and the type of person he is from the little I've heard: a nice guy but very determined and dogmatic in the way he wants to play. In a way he stucks me like a potentially less pragmatic Zidane.
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Could say the same about Rooney though.

Can only really judge them on their managerial experience rather than how they were in their playing career. Vieira did a solid job at Palace I thought considering they are content to stay in the league but hardly showed any credentials that suggests he's a top manager. Can't really remember much from his time prior to Palace - was it Nice and NYCFC?

Even so, it's some claim to say they should have hired him over Arteta.
 
SambaBoy said:
Could say the same about Rooney though.

Can only really judge them on their managerial experience rather than how they were in their playing career. Vieira did a solid job at Palace I thought considering they are content to stay in the league but hardly showed any credentials that suggests he's a top manager. Can't really remember much from his time prior to Palace - was it Nice and NYCFC?

Even so, it's some claim to say they should have hired him over Arteta.
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He had a good period with Nice before it went wrong and he was very bad in NYC. Same story at Palace.Only a few months in at Strasbourg (part of the Chelsea empire) and already some talks of him getting sacked at the end of the season.
There's absolutely nothing suggesting Vieira could have been a better appointment than Arteta.
 
WeePat said:
Who are the first and second most fouled players then, and why haven't those clubs also gone crying to PGMOL?
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In 2023, Arsenal’s winger was the league’s third-most fouled player, being on the receiving end of 87 fouls. Only Jordan Ayew (117) of Crystal Palace and Newcastle’s Bruno Guimaraes (92) were fouled more.
The matter was brought up as part of a wider conversation earlier this season with the league’s refereeing body — dialogue which happens between all clubs and the body.

They probably "cried" about it too but making it seems like it's only Arsenal gets more clicks.



Mourinho, Ferguson, Klopp, Guardiola, Arteta: embarassing crying soft cocks ;)
 
erikcred said:
Yes, but only one of them is an embarassing crying soft cock without a league title.
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Great point erikc, not sure what it has to do with player safety but keep going !
 
awop said:
Great point erikc, not sure what it has to do with player safety but keep going !
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Nothing. Same as what Arteta is saying.

He's just trying to ensure fewer yellows for obvious dives from Saka. Going to need them last min pens to stay a title challenger. Especially with City and Liverpool now on the move.

Not to mention the fact that Saka commits far more fouls than players like Ronaldo, Hazard or Salah do. So a yellow for a dive could easily be a sending off in some games.
 
erikcred said:
Nothing. Same as what Arteta is saying.

He's just trying to ensure fewer yellows for obvious dives from Saka. Going to need them last min pens to stay a title challenger. Especially with City and Liverpool now on the move.

Not to mention the fact that Saka commits far more fouls than players like Ronaldo, Hazard or Salah do. So a yellow for a dive could easily be a sending off in some games.
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Banger after banger after banger. So many good points from you today erikc !
 
awop said:
In 2023, Arsenal’s winger was the league’s third-most fouled player, being on the receiving end of 87 fouls. Only Jordan Ayew (117) of Crystal Palace and Newcastle’s Bruno Guimaraes (92) were fouled more.
The matter was brought up as part of a wider conversation earlier this season with the league’s refereeing body — dialogue which happens between all clubs and the body.

They probably "cried" about it too but making it seems like it's only Arsenal gets more clicks.



Mourinho, Ferguson, Klopp, Guardiola, Arteta: embarassing crying soft cocks ;)
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You do realise there’s a difference going in the media to bring attention to something then going to PGMOL and putting in a more formal complaint?
 
awop said:
Banger after banger after banger. So many good points from you today erikc !
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Thanks! I keep telling people there are reasonable Arsenal fans. They just won't believe me. I'm sticking up for you though. :D
 
OldTrevil said:
I still have this pleasant feeling that Arsenal missed a huge chance in not appointing Vieira back then. Arteta has learned how to set up a possession dominant system, but he has never struck me as hardened enough to wrestle a league title away from a dominant Pep or Klopp team.
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They don't seem to use that possession very well compared to their competition.
 
TheReligion said:
You do realise there’s a difference going in the media to bring attention to something then going to PGMOL and putting in a more formal complaint?
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Bringing up an issue during a meeting with the refereeing body behind closed doors is not the same as sending a formal complaint to the league. Are you saying the club shouldn't have done it and make Arteta bring it up during a press conference or post-match itw like his glorious predecessors ?
It went pretty well last time, you might be right.
 
awop said:
Bringing up an issue during a meeting with the refereeing body behind closed doors is not the same as sending a formal complaint to the league. Are you saying the club shouldn't have done it and make Arteta bring it up during a press conference or post-match itw like his glorious predecessors ?
It went pretty well last time, you might be right.
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I’m saying they are different ways of doing things so your one side fits all stance is incorrect in my opinion.
 
TheReligion said:
You do realise there’s a difference going in the media to bring attention to something then going to PGMOL and putting in a more formal complaint?
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it wasn’t a formal complaint, it was a subject apparently brought up in a routine PGMOL meeting where lots of subjects were brought up and discussed, and it was apparently earlier in the season, so it’s obviously been leaked to try and cause more headlines and as usual it’s been picked up and run with by the gullible and guys like Sky Sports and Talksport are totally ignoring context as usual and using it to stir debate.

And Arteta isnt crying about it for those that say that, he actually says this about Saka earlier last year.

The Spaniard said at the time: “He needs to learn when to take certain balls, what to do with that ball, how to use his body, when to jump.

“There are a lot of things we can train but obviously it is very difficult to understand what the opponent is going to do.

“Wingers and talented players get kicked and fouled and get the demand to win games and that is the chance he has, that is his role in the team.”
 
GoonerBear said:
it wasn’t a formal complaint, it was a subject apparently brought up in a routine PGMOL meeting where lots of subjects were brought up and discussed, and it was apparently earlier in the season, so it’s obviously been leaked to try and cause more headlines and as usual it’s been picked up and run with by the gullible and guys like Sky Sports and Talksport are totally ignoring context as usual and using it to stir debate.

And Arteta isnt crying about it for those that say that, he actually says this about Saka earlier last year.

The Spaniard said at the time: “He needs to learn when to take certain balls, what to do with that ball, how to use his body, when to jump.

“There are a lot of things we can train but obviously it is very difficult to understand what the opponent is going to do.

“Wingers and talented players get kicked and fouled and get the demand to win games and that is the chance he has, that is his role in the team.”
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Sure but the point was a comparison between coaches is daft as the circumstances are all different and the poster asked who was the last team to go directly to PMGOL about it.
 
TheReligion said:
Sure but the point was a comparison between coaches is daft as the circumstances are all different and the poster asked who was the last team to go directly to PMGOL about it.
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I quoted you mate but it was more directed at others, it was just because you had used the formal complaint phrase I could directly respond to that.
 
GoonerBear said:
I quoted you mate but it was more directed at others, it was just because you had used the formal complaint phrase I could directly respond to that.
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It is a fair comment!

Anyway let’s get back to calling Arsenal soft, moaning cnuts. One thing we know is factually correct :D
 
Arsenal have to be not only the biggest bottlers but they now hold the title for biggest moaners.

Saka is also a diving cheat, surprisingly didn’t get booked for an obvious dive in the last game.
 
Daydreamer said:
I think you’d have to ask Liverpool fans if they were happy with their team’s performance at the time. My brother is a a Liverpool fan and he was pleased with their efforts that season… so there was at least one.

I’m not sure what you’re looking for here; I thought I gave a fairly detailed response. This feels a little like the posts at the end of last season where United fans were saying Arsenal fans would swap places with them because they United won a trophy, Arsenal didn’t and both teams qualified for the CL. I wouldn't take that swap if offered and was basically told I was lying - which I found kind of funny.

I was happy with my team last year and we finished 2nd to officially the best team on the planet (who may well have cheated to become so). I was very unhappy with my team in 2016 when we finished 2nd to Leicester as we had far more resources than them and seriously underperformed.

TLDR - context matters.
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You mention context but how many injuries did that 2016 Arsenal team have? Wenger had to pick different players each game, plus we were in the champions league and FA Cup without spending any money that summer. To me, finishing 2nd that year was unbelievable.

But I know other fans see it different
 
Looks like another trophyless season.. Are they still in the carabao cup? I've seen they were beaten by Westham.

No trophy for Arteta again this season.
 
Still a real weakness in that team. You can feel it in key moments.
 
They lost when they didn’t score in first half. When Arteta took out the only good central midfielder they had he made sure Arsenal would surrender this game.
 
Licha-Vidic said:
Looks like another trophyless season.. Are they still in the carabao cup? I've seen they were beaten by Westham.

No trophy for Arteta again this season.
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Still in the CL.

I also wouldn’t completely count them out of the league yet, they have a pretty decent fixture list, only hard away games on paper are City, Brighton, Spurs and us (and we have been wildly inconsistent at home). As it stands though hard to see them hit 45-48 pts out of the remaining 54 so it would be a Leicester ish total if they are to win it.
 
The thing about Arsenal is, they always try to walk it in.
 
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