Argentina NT | WC Discussion

Terrible performance. Haven't watched much of Di Maria over last 2-3 years but that was a shocking performance, similar to the ones he put in at United.

Thought Lautaro Martinez lack of movement really affected them, there was time when De Paul/Paredes/Messi had the ball in the 8/10 positions and with SA's high back line, a well timed run could have got him in behind, but he seemed to come feet all the time or not make decent runs apart from the one where he scored and ruled offisde. Full-backs were very poor too.
 
Argentine midfield is just reminiscent of McFred. All physical but unable to protect, unable to attack and unable to progress the ball quickly and incisively under any kind of pressure.
 
Their average age against Saudi Arabia was 30.2. Which is pretty crazy, to be honest. And it showed. Slow and old. They need to prepare for the post-Messi age and overhaul their squad for the next World Cup, because I think they are done this time around. Di Maria was really bad. I'm surprised to keep seeing him start. That midfield is abysmal. Romero and a 34-year-old Otamendi at the back is also far from ideal. It's just not a World Cup winning team.
 
Ronaldo's ego said:
They’ve gone from joint favourites to washed up in the space of a couple of hours.
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Because people have still not learnt that a streak at the CONMEBOL doesn't translate. Whilst England loses to Germany, etc. Argentina only has to fear Brazil. Colombia and Uruguay are weaker than they were in the past, so a 3 year unbeaten streak is possible, especially with Messi in the team.

Most times at world cups, as much as people like to say otherwise, two things actually determine the winners and finalist.
1. The quality of their spine
2. the draw.

Argenitina has a very average midfield. People are looking at France losing Pogba and Kante, without realizing Rabiot is better than both Paredes and Depaul. In fact, he has probably been Juventus' best player this season. Otamendi is a 34 year old playing a highline ( they should clearly be playing Martinez, but that's the decision their coach decided to go with). Their full backs aren't that strong either to cover for their lack of creativity through the middle or the age of Otamendi. Compare this with Brazil, France, Germany, Portugal or even England and it becomes quite clear that a lot of overhyping has been done due to the status of Messi moreso than any quality Argentina has had.

Some pundits have gone off the result Argentina had against a weak Italy side that couldn't even qualify for the world cup on the basis of them being European champions despite the huge decline due to their defensive departures and attacking injuries. I'm not saying that Argentina given the right circumstances can't go far, but the idea that they could actually be favoured against Brazil, France, Portugal or Germany despite these major flaws was always slightly ridiculous.
 
Still time for them to bounce back but yeah that was poor today, couldn't handle the pressing and intensity of the Saudis at times and alway seem to have a mentality issue in games like these.

Least Lisandro should start now.
 
It wasn't that long ago that Spain lost their opening match and went on to win the tournament. I wouldn't count Argentina out just yet.
 
Todd said:
It wasn't that long ago that Spain lost their opening match and went on to win the tournament. I wouldn't count Argentina out just yet.
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Agreed. Saudi did a good job on them but there is a bit of an overreaction here. Saudi created 2 half chances and buried both, whilst riding their fortune on the tight offsides and bad Argentina finishing. Argentina still 1.7ish odds to qualify from the group so expectation is still for them to turn it around. Still 4th favourites overall as well.
 
redcucumber said:
Is Romero world class?! Not sure about that at all.
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I might be in the minority but I think he is. Unfortunately he is injured too often and doesn't look ready for the WC.

The loss of Lo Celso seems massive right now, his ball carrying and being an extra passing option for Messi is crucial. Papu Gomez was horrendous. Looks finished at this level.
 
They missed the trick in not taking Garnacho with them. Lisandro, Enzo and Mac Allister surely have to start from now on.
 
How much do we think the Saudis paid Argentina for loosing :lol:
 
Can they still call up Garnancho though, or is the deadline already past?
 
The overreaction to todays performance is getting a bit out of hand. On another day, those close offsides went on their favour and they are 4-0 up at half time and everyone is saying they are going to win the entire thing.
They were absolutely awful today, especially 2nd half however Saudi pretty much created no chances bar the goals and both were extremely good finishes. It was about as big of freak/upset as you can get. Argentina have been very good for the past couple of years, strong defensively and good going forward, one game doesn’t change all that, especially against low level opposition.

I will still be very surprised if they do not go through and improve as the competition goes on. Every player was bad today, they can’t be that bad again.
 
Apparently they did the same in the 90’s and still ended up in the final. A big wake up call but still pretty confident they will get through.
 
LInkash said:
Against a top team. Argentina lost against literally the worst team in the tournament.
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Wouldn't call Switzerland a top team but yeah, losing to Saudi-Arabia might feel more alarming. Credit to the Saudi team though!
 
VorZakone said:
Spain also lost 1st game in 2010.
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Ah cheers. Tbh it bound to happen, they were on track to beat Italy unbeaten record and had one of the easiest opening games, of course that means they will lose.


LInkash said:
Against a top team. Argentina lost against literally the worst team in the tournament.
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The Saudis are shite but we’re Switzerland in 2010 a top team ?
 
tjb said:
Most times at world cups, as much as people like to say otherwise, two things actually determine the winners and finalist.
1. The quality of their spine
2. the draw.
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Yeah, I looked back at teams that made the final and the major takeaway was that you need 2-3 world class players in the spine and then just to hope your streaky wide players have a good couple of weeks and also old CBs are alright. Led me to put some money on the Dutch because Van Dijk and De Jong is about all you can hope for from those spots and I also think Van Dijk's recent decline from top CB in the world to being in the top tier with a bunch of guys may not matter for this tournament and may be a club thing.

If Godin was in better form or just one of Gimenez or Araujo was fully healthy, I'd add Uruguay because Coates-Valverde-Bentancur-Darwin is a solid spine, so if they can sneak into the knockouts and one of Gimenez or Araujo is able to stay healthy they have the sort of XI that seems to sometimes sneak into a final.
 
BarcaSpurs said:


Agreed. Saudi did a good job on them but there is a bit of an overreaction here. Saudi created 2 half chances and buried both, whilst riding their fortune on the tight offsides and bad Argentina finishing. Argentina still 1.7ish odds to qualify from the group so expectation is still for them to turn it around. Still 4th favourites overall as well.
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I think its a bit disingenuous to claim 'The Saudi's rode their luck' with their perfect execution of the offside trap all game long. Argentina infact were at faul for not replacing Lautaro at center forward over 90 minutes who utterly failed to come to grips with the trap. I doubt Argentina will find it that hard again tot break a defensive line this tournament
 
Spiersey said:
The overreaction to todays performance is getting a bit out of hand. On another day, those close offsides went on their favour and they are 4-0 up at half time and everyone is saying they are going to win the entire thing.
They were absolutely awful today, especially 2nd half however Saudi pretty much created no chances bar the goals and both were extremely good finishes. It was about as big of freak/upset as you can get. Argentina have been very good for the past couple of years, strong defensively and good going forward, one game doesn’t change all that, especially against low level opposition.

I will still be very surprised if they do not go through and improve as the competition goes on. Every player was bad today, they can’t be that bad again.
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That's fair. If we look at recent World Cups, in 2006 France scraped out of the group stages and reached the final, in 2010 Spain lost their first game to Switzerland before going on to win, while in 2018 France scored a meagre 3 goals in the group stages, before going on to win. A lot depends on if they finish second rather than first, which makes their path to a final more challenging.
 
With Poland and Mexico drawing, they have got off a little lighter than had one of them got a win. Those 2 teams are bad, as poor as Argentina were today, they have enough quality to raise their game and beat both of those teams. Interesting group though.
 
justsomebloke said:
The 78 team didn't either. And the 86 team was pretty much one superstar plus a lot of solid, as opposed to great, players. Much like this one.

On the other hand, quite a lot of the Argentinian teams who crashed out of tournaments had that star quality through much of the lineup.

So me, I think this is looking like a seriously dangerous contender.
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The 78 team bought the world cup with that impossible 6-0 victory over Peru, of course nothing is proven but Argentina was a dictatorship back then so I would not be surprised money was involved.
In 86 it wouldn’t surprise me either if money was involved in the quarter finals vs England and in the semi finals vs Belgium.
This is no offside for Belgium at 2m10
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
I think its a bit disingenuous to claim 'The Saudi's rode their luck' with their perfect execution of the offside trap all game long. Argentina infact were at faul for not replacing Lautaro at center forward over 90 minutes who utterly failed to come to grips with the trap. I doubt Argentina will find it that hard again tot break a defensive line this tournament
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I mean the Lautaro offside that was by an inch of his sleeve etc, it was a high risk strategy and the gamble paid off for them. Saying they rode their luck a little bit isn't meant as a criticism, it's normal to need a bit of fortune to get an upset such as this.
 
This loss has to be the most shocking loss ever? I was hoping Serbia would stun Brazil, but Saudis I think did the shocker so Serbia doesn't have to. :D
 
Telsim said:
Their average age against Saudi Arabia was 30.2. Which is pretty crazy, to be honest. And it showed. Slow and old. They need to prepare for the post-Messi age and overhaul their squad for the next World Cup, because I think they are done this time around. Di Maria was really bad. I'm surprised to keep seeing him start. That midfield is abysmal. Romero and a 34-year-old Otamendi at the back is also far from ideal. It's just not a World Cup winning team.
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They actually did that post 2018. Didn't call up Di Maria for a while and Messi was rested for many of their friendlies while they tried out loads of new players.

Think winning the Copa America meant the old guard just got one more chance at the World cup. For next game would expect the likes of Alvarez to start in attack and midfield to be re-jigged.

Mexico won't be easy. They can sit in, Ochoa was warming up nicely for his annual brick wall World cup match and both teams know each other so well from endless Copa American and previous World cup meetings. Mexico also have Gerardo Martino in charge which is another interesting dynamic.

Much more chance of beating Poland.
 
Sweet Square said:
Apparently they did the same in the 90’s and still ended up in the final. A big wake up call but still pretty confident they will get through.
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Correct. They have had some dodgy first round results in the World Cup and then ended up going far in the tournament. We'll see with this one.
 
BarcaSpurs said:
They should still get out of the group but Saudi showed that they can't cope with heavy pressing and intensity. No pace in the team, the only outlet was Di Maria who isn't extremely fast these days.
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If only they have a pacey young 18 year old waiting to be called up.
 
Sweet Square said:
The Saudis are shite but we’re Switzerland in 2010 a top team ?
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The Swiss were 24th of the FIFA ranking coming into that World Cup... The goal they scored against Spain remained the only goal they scored in that edition. They got another point drawing 0-0 with Honduras (ranked 38th back then) And of course they didn't make it out of the group. So, No, Switzerland were not a top team in 2010...

https://en.fifaranking.net/ranking/?d=2010-05-26


In 2008, they went out 4th in the Euro GS (despite hosting the thing). And in 2012, they failed to make it to the Euros. They didn't even reach the playoff (failed behind Montenegro (2nd) and England(1st)).
 
Argentina should have hired a European coach. Same for Brazil. This has been clear for many years now, that the coaching standards in S. America are way below those in Europe. So unless they could have hired Simeone, they should have gone European.

It is bloody ridiculous seeing good South American teams getting shafted in World Cup cause of coaches who would struggle getting jobs in second leagues of top European countries. I mean, fecking Lionel Scaloni, who has not had a manager job before is their manager. And he is probably better than some of the dross they had since Pekerman.
 
tjb said:
Because people have still not learnt that a streak at the CONMEBOL doesn't translate. Whilst England loses to Germany, etc. Argentina only has to fear Brazil. Colombia and Uruguay are weaker than they were in the past, so a 3 year unbeaten streak is possible, especially with Messi in the team.

Most times at world cups, as much as people like to say otherwise, two things actually determine the winners and finalist.
1. The quality of their spine
2. the draw.

Argenitina has a very average midfield. People are looking at France losing Pogba and Kante, without realizing Rabiot is better than both Paredes and Depaul. In fact, he has probably been Juventus' best player this season. Otamendi is a 34 year old playing a highline ( they should clearly be playing Martinez, but that's the decision their coach decided to go with). Their full backs aren't that strong either to cover for their lack of creativity through the middle or the age of Otamendi. Compare this with Brazil, France, Germany, Portugal or even England and it becomes quite clear that a lot of overhyping has been done due to the status of Messi moreso than any quality Argentina has had.

Some pundits have gone off the result Argentina had against a weak Italy side that couldn't even qualify for the world cup on the basis of them being European champions despite the huge decline due to their defensive departures and attacking injuries. I'm not saying that Argentina given the right circumstances can't go far, but the idea that they could actually be favoured against Brazil, France, Portugal or Germany despite these major flaws was always slightly ridiculous.
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Probably better to not base your entire thesis on one game or you could end up with a lot of egg on your face. This is the kind of post that should be made if and when they actually get knocked out.
 
Todd said:
It wasn't that long ago that Spain lost their opening match and went on to win the tournament. I wouldn't count Argentina out just yet.
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That is literally the only time it has ever happened though. A few other teams have reached the final after losing their opening fixture however.
 
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