After all we are one of the richest clubs in the world, there's no question we are a global giant, you never see Madrid, Barcelona or Munich having a sustained period where not only are they nowhere near challenging for the league but they are regularly missing out on the Champions League. We've broken the world transfer record and still we aren't anywhere near where we need to be. It's gotten to the stage where neutral fans actually think a Liverpool side that finished seventh or eighth last year are genuinely better than us.
Are we the worst run elite club in the world? If not us then who?
- Thread starter Red Ryan
- Start date
AC Milan.
I get what you mean, it's a terrible run we're on that started under SAF. I don't think it's how we're run though, we've just had some shocking transfer windows.
Ye but the 3 teams you mention have little to no competition domestically so its not a level comparison - see Serie A for some similar situations
I genuinely think the politics of our ex players are getting in the way. People like Scholes/Giggs/Neville all harp on about "united having no identity".
The Scousers are certainly bonkers but they all pull in the same direction. I wish our club had that.
The Scousers are certainly bonkers but they all pull in the same direction. I wish our club had that.
You said it.
Fergie leaving left a huge power vacuum because he had such an anomalous amount of power at the club.
Since he stepped down I think there have been numerous power-struggles within the club (some involving SAF himself), and I believe most of the bad decisions made in that time are down to that.
Since he stepped down I think there have been numerous power-struggles within the club (some involving SAF himself), and I believe most of the bad decisions made in that time are down to that.
To say Sir Alex's retirement was handled poorly would be an understatement. Not only did they replace him poorly they let Gill go in the same summer. They should have fought to get someone a level below Pep and Jose after they couldn't get those two. I feel like everything that's happening now is a product of that summer. The Glazers and the board must have really underestimated what Sir Alex was doing. Look at how long City have been courting Pep, it just shows they had a plan of what they want to do. We are in the here and now hopefully Jose will take us back to greatness.
It really can't be put down to shocking windows. The vast majority of this forum was over the moon at the business we did over the past few seasons. Only have to look at our opponents tonight to see its not always about buying world class players to play quality football.
I think our biggest problem is the sea change in style we've had of late. Sir Alex to LVG to Mourinho. Huge change in style every time which will take time for the squad to get used to.
Yes but we've had to deal with being without one of the greatest managers ever who was in charge for 26 years. Difficult and unique situation.
Actually I would say they are no longer considered an elite club but that would be more down to money problems and not being able to invest, something we really can't claim, it hasn't helped they have went down the line of appointing one unqualified club legend after another as manager with disastrous results. There's a lesson there...
Good post. This is a big reason too. It seems everyone was just sitting back enjoying SAF handle everything and his departure has shocked us to the core. Letting Gill go at the same time played a huge role too as Woodward needed time to settle down. He's doing a great job now imo so it's upto Mourinho to deliver at his end.
It's all to do with the transfer dealings. It doesn't matter how happy we were at the time too many signings have proved to be underwhelming for various reasons. It started under SAF.
Big clubs change managers all the time. Their results though remain broadly the same.
Hard to answer that question given we don't actually know that much about what happens behind the scenes. The signings we've made over the last few summers, the freedom offered to our managers and the business we've transacted since may (Mourinho, Ibra, Mkhitarian, Pogba) suggests we're not as badly run as many thought. And our commercial success also shows that were superbly run in that aspect.
Where we fail: no team that spends as big as us plays as poorly. We spend huge money nearly every summer but we're still fixing our problems rather than reaching new heights. Hopefully this changes with Jose but so far it hasn't.
Where we fail: no team that spends as big as us plays as poorly. We spend huge money nearly every summer but we're still fixing our problems rather than reaching new heights. Hopefully this changes with Jose but so far it hasn't.
I think Real Madrid is the worst run elite club in the world.
We're just finding our feet after losing one of the best managers ever and at the same time losing a chief executive who knew his onions. We've now got one of the best managers in the world leading us and the trust we have put into our relatively young CEO is starting to pay off as he uses his smarts and finds his feet.
We'll come good.
We'll come good.
Oh please all those clubs mentioned went through dark times, granted it might not have looked as bad as us currently due to never failing to get in the CL but even that is due to the league they're from and not enough team to take advantages of their mini slumps.
We've been through a bad 3 years period but doesn't mean we're done. And very premature to tall about this season while we're still very early in it.
Barca went through a bad period before Pep took over. Bayern were in danger of missing out CL football before some late quick fix and just a few year ago weren't among the giant favorite in CL. Real went years without winning anything significant and were getting regularly knocked out fairly early in CL.
We've been through a bad 3 years period but doesn't mean we're done. And very premature to tall about this season while we're still very early in it.
Barca went through a bad period before Pep took over. Bayern were in danger of missing out CL football before some late quick fix and just a few year ago weren't among the giant favorite in CL. Real went years without winning anything significant and were getting regularly knocked out fairly early in CL.
If money could solve all issues, we'd be among the best placed clubs in the world. Just signing good players is no guarantee of success unless you shop at the Neymar, Suarez level of the market which we don't. If you have managers with such different ideas of how football is to be played, players will take time and moreover, players bought to play under 1 system won't do as well in the polar opposite one.
I've noticed a big change in the atmosphere at OT over the last 8-10 years, even during Fergie's time. What happens on the pitch is reflected in the crowd, if we play dire football like we did under LVG then you'll get frustration and groans from the crowd. It comes hand in hand with our commercial success too, the casual fans, the corporate fans, the tourists with half and half scarves all bring money in at the cost of a passionate local fan who could be in that seat.
There's no doubt that Ferguson's long reign at the club meant that we rested on our laurels to some extent. He helped mask problems and he achieved what few, if any manager can do, which is to not allow playing standards to fall or our competitiveness to waiver during austerity enforced by owners. Look at our recruitment during Ferguson's final 5 or 6 seasons at the club. There was no uproar, because there wasn't anything to be deeply troubled about - we were still winning, still competing. The Glazer Out campaign never really gathered significant momentum, because on-the-pitch, we were still progressing.
Our commercial capabilities suggest that we are incredibly well run on that front. And the other problems don't run so deep that they can't be rectified by Woodward and Co.
I for one am incredibly encouraged by everything Woodward has said and is saying - because it suggests that he won't rest until Manchester United are considered, without dispute, the biggest football club in the world. And in Mourinho, for the first time in years, we have a manager whose ambitions match that of the club.
Our commercial capabilities suggest that we are incredibly well run on that front. And the other problems don't run so deep that they can't be rectified by Woodward and Co.
I for one am incredibly encouraged by everything Woodward has said and is saying - because it suggests that he won't rest until Manchester United are considered, without dispute, the biggest football club in the world. And in Mourinho, for the first time in years, we have a manager whose ambitions match that of the club.
Yep. With the changes we faced in our structure and the loss of that stability we had for over 20 year with Saf as our manager, things were always going to be rough. Perhaps not as bad as the past 3 years but still tough.
We've had to reset and go on again which won't be a problem for us after a while given we have the resources and pulls to get things in order once again.
Yup. Fair play, the feckers sure did have a proper long term plan in place. Heck they had the chaps who were close colleagues of pep here pulling the strings at the club for years before be arrived.
If the money we'd spent was done correctly we would be amongst the best placed clubs in the world. No doubt. Instead we've bought Rojo, Falcao, Jones, Young,Darmian, Schweinsteiger etc etc.
Like I said managers change all the time, it doesn't stop the success at the other elite clubs.
Inter Milan, maybe?
What the hell? Let's not give LFC too much credit here. They've stumbled upon a good manager, after literally decades of being an omni-shambles. With a good manager in charge and a team that's playing well, it's easy to all pull in the same direction. Without that, it's inevitable that there will be lots of differences of opinions about the direction the club is going. Which is exactly what's been happening at Anfield since before most of redcafe were born. A promising start to this season doesn't change that.
Some of the blame has to go to SAF, he really did leave us with some "value" players.
Coupled with legends who were past it =disaster.
Coupled with legends who were past it =disaster.
well, exactly
So we're not either?
I think you hit the nail on the head here, with two sentences.
I'd also say that this kind of situation would have been hard to avoid completely, in any case. That's just something you guys will have to get through.
No, I mean that's case in point that they have been terribly mismanaged.
That's the point. LVGs idea of a correct player is vastly different to Mourinhos given how different their approach to football is. That's just for buying these players, getting the ones still here performing to a good level in an entirely different system is the biggest task. The ones who were here have all struggled too so it's not as if we've just had new players that haven't delivered. Could count on one hand the number of man Utd players that have performed at a level fit for one of the biggest clubs in the world. On one finger if I'm honest as no one bar de Gea makes the grade.
I'm not a neutral and I think they are better than us. I hope tonight can be the start of proving me wrong.
I'd say our transition post SAF was done amateurish.
We lost both Gill and SAF very close to one another and we didn't really have the necessary infrastructure in place to accommodate losing someone as influential as SAF. Nevermind Gill as well.
Woodward was also fairly new to the football exec role and that's probably showed over a few transfer windows - even though we've generally backed our managers, we've also bought very sporadically, often more misses than hits, with little "bigger picture" strategies in sight, IMO.
Succession planning was poor. And we're still reeling from it.
Commercially, we're far from the worst run elite club. In fact, we're one of the best. But our football decisions could have been done better, especially the crucial part of getting SAF's successor right. Let's hope Mourinho steadies the ship now.
We lost both Gill and SAF very close to one another and we didn't really have the necessary infrastructure in place to accommodate losing someone as influential as SAF. Nevermind Gill as well.
Woodward was also fairly new to the football exec role and that's probably showed over a few transfer windows - even though we've generally backed our managers, we've also bought very sporadically, often more misses than hits, with little "bigger picture" strategies in sight, IMO.
Succession planning was poor. And we're still reeling from it.
Commercially, we're far from the worst run elite club. In fact, we're one of the best. But our football decisions could have been done better, especially the crucial part of getting SAF's successor right. Let's hope Mourinho steadies the ship now.
Couldn't agree more.
I can't believe some people are trying to use Liverpool as an example of a club well run just because they've had a good start after 7 games.
It's like people are forgetting 26 years have happened. And they still have everything to prove.
Barca 15 years ago were no sunshine state. 4th, 4th and 6th in 01, 02, 03. Had some financial issue as well I think. Players such as Pique and Fabregas were sold to the PL from La Masia.
And there are obvious examples (like Leeds) of much much worse run clubs than us, to the extent that they lost their status as an elite club.
In the present moment, I'd say a lot of Man United looks very well run. Most is in the green, notably except the first team.
From the outside though, it is difficult to really tell. If we don't achieve any success the next 5 years, this post may look very stupid in retrospect.
And there are obvious examples (like Leeds) of much much worse run clubs than us, to the extent that they lost their status as an elite club.
In the present moment, I'd say a lot of Man United looks very well run. Most is in the green, notably except the first team.
From the outside though, it is difficult to really tell. If we don't achieve any success the next 5 years, this post may look very stupid in retrospect.
We are shit in Europe as well.
Yeah, as if de Gea, Rafael, Smalling, Jones, Kagawa, Welbeck, Chicharito, weren't young players who could kick on to become top class, bar Jones, Rafael, Welbeck, everyone has with Welbeck even being decent. Over a period of 2 months, Carrick, Rooney, Robin van Persie must all have turned to shit and Moyes was one click away of being able to sign Herrera/Thiago/Strootman and other additions if required. Moyes and LvG have just made a mess.
I was using the Liverpool analogy as they have been utter shite recently apart from the first few games of this season, we beat them twice without breaking a sweat last season, but all of a sudden we are worse than them? How far have we actually fallen is what I'm asking...
We're not badly run now, but the incompetence SAF and Gill showed was staggering. Fergie may have "earned" the right to pick his retirement date, but he should've been far more aware about the clubs future without him. There should have been a substantial period of time when the club knew of his plans, and Gill should have managed the crossover period for at least a year.
As a result of all that it all went to shit, technically speaking. I think the club is moving in the right direction though, and it's up to Mourinho to provide the "big club" performances now.
As a result of all that it all went to shit, technically speaking. I think the club is moving in the right direction though, and it's up to Mourinho to provide the "big club" performances now.
It doesn't matter who the manager is, lots of the players we've signed over the last six years just aren't good enough. Or they've been constantly injured or they just didn't want to be here.
I don't see how anyone can look at the players we've signed since about 2010 and still be wondering why we're not competing with Madrid, Bayern etc. It's a terrible list.