Are trophies a measure of progress?

Winning trophies by playing poorly over the course of a season is just papering over the cracks, that is not a sign of progression.

If Arsenal started winning trophies, that would be a sign of progression because they have been getting better season after season.
 
Trophies are absolutely a measure of success and winning the FA cup is why Ten Hag still has a job at Manchester United F.C.

If Mourinho had won the Premier League, he may have stayed with us. If Solskjaer had won the Europa League OR the FA cup, it would be a -lot- harder for the fair weather fans on Redcafe to spend 200 pages berating him (though they'd still have done it).

So if Ten Hag wins the FA cup, Europa League or whatever, once again in retrospect it's difficult to be unhappy, because that usually means (as with last season) you've beaten some great teams, and it does prove that you -can- win important games of football.

Whether INEOS hierarchy will accept that is another thing. Omar Berrada literally came out and said the other day that he wants the tools in place to challenge every single year, properly challenge, for Premier League's and Champions League's. That may mean that they need to look at the manager too, if the players can't be motivated or set up to do that.
 
It is a measure of success. An 8th placed league finish is a measure of failure. When the two or conflated, one clearly outweighs the other.

It also works the other way around. If we had won the league, it would be a measure of success. If we had gone out in the group stage of the CL, it would be a measure of failure. When the two are conflated, one would hugely outweigh the other, and we’d be considered a success, although it would be noted that we need to do better in Europe.

Ultimately, our cup wins are a tick, our embarrassing league form is a cross, and the cross is a lot bigger than the tick.
 
Trophies are no doubt important and it is silly to claim that FA Cup we won beating full form City comfortably is a small matter.

That said, I agree with Ole that the only true sign of progress for Man United is the sustained league position. Finishing outside of top 4 is not acceptable, Ten Hag got a pass one time because of injuries but if he thinks he can fail finishing top 4 again and survive because of some trophy, he is insane
 
Yes to a degree.

Ogs reign was propped up by an ungodly amount of penalties. ETH not so much.

Most of Utds problems are to do with squad composition, player attitudes imo.
 
Ferguson said something in his first autobiography about winning the FA Cup in 1990 that trophies were a nice bonus but the true health of a club was seen in consistent league positions. It’s true, you can’t keep having the season United had last year again and again. League is the bread and butter. If you watch your team every week, it’s hard to stomach losing close to 20 games a season and the depression that brings vs one day of glory in a FA Cup final.
 
A league trophy and CL trophy, yes.

A domestic cup, no.
 
Mb194dc said:
Yes to a degree.

Ogs reign was propped up by an ungodly amount of penalties. ETH not so much.

Most of Utds problems are to do with squad composition, player attitudes imo.
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It wasn’t ‘propped up’, the vast majority of those were clear penalties won by Martial, who was probably the best central striker dribbler in the league at the time, running at defenders, as was Rashford. Naturally a fast aggressively attacking team will win more penalties than a team that is more passive. Why are Man City always among the top for most penalties won? Because they have quick and/or tricky forwards.
 
Trophies are part of a measure of progress but clearly not the full picture. In a season where you have a record low PL finish and performance and win the FA Cup, you’d say it was a mixed bag, at best. The cup is only 6 games, three of them were against Wigan, Newport and Coventry - whom we scraped by on penalties. The other three Forest, Liverpool at home, and City. So really we only won two games that we might not have expected to win. Can you measure progress over the victory in two games?
 
Depends how you define progress!

In terms of winning trophies we have progressed…..in terms of league position we have regressed.

League position is the true reflection of where the team stands in comparison to other teams. It becomes more meaningful the more matches played and so right now after three games 14th isn’t that meaningful but 8th last season compared to 3rd season before indicates regression.
 
Everything is a measure of progress. From trophies to match performances to training sessions to player behaviour.

This topic is really about whether our two cup wins mean that Ten Hag has done a good job or not. Personally, I remember how happy I was on those two days far more than I remember how I felt after a loss
 
I don't think they're really a measure of strong progress, but it shows we have the capability to perform at the highest level and a manager can get players up for big games. It's a very good trait to have, but you need to have consistency as well if you want long term success.

That being said, reverse it and if Arteta doesn't win anything this year or next, people start asking questions. I think Ole's point suited him as much as Ten Hag's does. It's no surprise they both are focussing on the positives they brought to United in their tenures.
 
HTG said:
One of many indicators that need context.
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As it often is, the most boring and noncommittal answer (and I'm not trying to cause offense!) is the right answer.
 
KeanoMagicHat said:
It wasn’t ‘propped up’, the vast majority of those were clear penalties won by Martial, who was probably the best central striker dribbler in the league at the time, running at defenders, as was Rashford. Naturally a fast aggressively attacking team will win more penalties than a team that is more passive. Why are Man City always among the top for most penalties won? Because they have quick and/or tricky forwards.
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For City sheer weight of numbers helps too. Always right up in the top two when it comes to most touches in the box.

Like you said though, tricky dribblers or direct runners are another big way of getting them. Particualrly lethal if you play on the counter attack or transition football like Ole did at the same time as teams are stretched and they end up making more last ditch challenges or attempted tackles that they really shouldn't be making due to panicking at the back.
 
I'm assuming by progress you mean "the team improving". In which case, no.

At least not until you've essentially topped out league performances at "regular title challenges", at which point then you can start looking at the ability to compete on multiple fronts.
 
stefan92 said:
In a way it is. Do you think Spurs would have won those cups United have won under EtH? You need some kind of winning mentality to pull off a cup win with such bad performances along the road.

Nonetheless you need both - the mental strength to win when it matters most and the foundation to consistently be in a position to pull it off. While EtH seems to have done well in the first part, he failed at the latter.
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No, I don't think Spurs would have won them. But I also don't think EtH would be able to win them with Spurs.

The way we pulled off the FA Cup win was impressive and something I hoped we could build upon or progress from. But then we didn't or haven't (so far).

I don't disagree with your thoughts but I feel like our cup wins are more the peaks of a climb than plateaus that give us the chance to catch a breath before our climb continues. But maybe I'm just too focused on Utd and EtH.
 
Gums said:
I don't disagree with your thoughts but I feel like our cup wins are more the peaks of a climb than plateaus that give us the chance to catch a breath before our climb continues.
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It's a nice picture and I fully agree with it. But I think all titles are like climbing a peak - it always has to be done, but you can simplify the climb by starting from a higher plateau (=your actual level of football). Some teams are better at going on a climb (look at Chelsea's CL wins), while others stumble while trying to get up the smallest hill (look at any time anybody thought Spurs had a shot at some silverware).

So to come back to United, it feels like the climbs to cup wins currently are to steep to be able to do it reliably.
 
hasanejaz88 said:
For me, league position is a much better indicator of progress than winning a cup. I remember people constantly bringing up how the experience of winning a cup can help us take the next step but nothing has really changed despite us winning a fair few cups since 2013.

We've won more titles than Arsenal since Mikel joined but no one in their right mind would say we've progressed more than them.
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Progressed towards what though? Winning stuff is the goal of football. Now in terms of 'progress' towards winning the league or champions league then yeah we are further behind. That's what league tables are for. But winning other trophies is progress and completion of their own goals. They don't need to be indicative of anything more than we won that cup that year.
 
Domestic cup is not a sign of progression considering that even Coventry was in semi-finals. But if we were 2nd or at least 3rd place in league with not many points behind (max 8) I'd say it is the progress.
So anyone who says winning cups is a sign of progress, would you take the cup every year but being 6-8th position in league with no European football?
I think only tenHagists are deluded to think this FA was the progress.
 
There's no denying that the trophy defence is getting tiresome but in fairness, these things are remembered in history far more than league position.

League position can also be somewhat false, especially if you plummet to 6th or 7th in the next few seasons and need the dreaded 'rebuild'. The 2nd place finish under Jose was underwhelming and we clearly weren't the second best team in the league. I'd argue our finishes under Ole really weren't that impressive either, especially with the football on display half the time. Again though, not much good if you fail miserably a few seasons down the line and need a rebuild. That isn't progress.
 
Rozay said:
It is a measure of success. An 8th placed league finish is a measure of failure. When the two or conflated, one clearly outweighs the other.

It also works the other way around. If we had won the league, it would be a measure of success. If we had gone out in the group stage of the CL, it would be a measure of failure. When the two are conflated, one would hugely outweigh the other, and we’d be considered a success, although it would be noted that we need to do better in Europe.

Ultimately, our cup wins are a tick, our embarrassing league form is a cross, and the cross is a lot bigger than the tick.
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Even league positions can obfuscate things. After all, we finished 3rd in ETH's first season and it didn't feel like significant progress had been made. It felt like a decent starting point to build off of.

People want clear measures of progress or the lack thereof and the problem is we have a multi-trophy sport where different statistics show different things. Winning the league cup just means you won the league cup.
 
I think the recent discussions show managers can't win when fans have turned on them. Solskjaer was ridiculed beyond belief despite his comments obviously needing context - for saying league position is a good measure of progress. Now ten hag gets the same ridicule for pointing to trophies hes won.

So much of the stuff managers gets criticised for his ridiculous, especially when you consider most are just filling air time with media obligations
 
I'd say league position is a much better measurement.
It's a sustained period of form and accounts for peaks and dips in performance.

Even the champions league can be entered easily by some teams who get a free pass into the competition every year and then a lucky run can see them play lesser opponents with dips in their form, until you get a few tough matches later on, that can still be dependent on a sporadic injury crisis and drop in opponents form.
 
sparx99 said:
Even league positions can obfuscate things. After all, we finished 3rd in ETH's first season and it didn't feel like significant progress had been made. It felt like a decent starting point to build off of.

People want clear measures of progress or the lack thereof and the problem is we have a multi-trophy sport where different statistics show different things. Winning the league cup just means you won the league cup.
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It felt like significant progress only if you went back to the season before. If you went back any further, we were finishing 2nd and 3rd anyway. You're right when it felt like a decent starting point for Ten Hag though.

You obviously need a larger sample size than simply one season to the next, otherwise you're constantly going to be in a cycle of progress-regression.
 
At Man Utd you need both. Simple as that. You eventually have to show that you can compete for the league and you can’t go trophyless forever either.
League position is the most important for me though, we need to be good enough to finish top 4 at the very least basically every year.
 
Big Andy said:
"Trophies aren't a measure of progress" - "YOU'RE feckING SHIT, WE WANT TROPHIES YOU cnut

"I won two trophies" - "YOU'RE feckING SHIT, TROPHIES DON'T MEAN ANYTHING YOU cnut"

Basically, anything that can be used against a United manager will be, as fans are, in the main, reactionary cnuts with no idea. Me included.
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100% this. When Ole finished second and got to two cup finals we were told he hadn’t won anything. Now with Ten Hag it’s the opposite. Frankly the media obsession with United is boring at this point. Focus on another club.
 
Josep Dowling said:
100% this. When Ole finished second and got to two cup finals we were told he hadn’t won anything. Now with Ten Hag it’s the opposite. Frankly the media obsession with United is boring at this point. Focus on another club.
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It’s what happens when you’re the biggest club in the world unfortunately. If it was reversed and city wasn’t winning anything or doing bad not much attention would be happening right now. But if they suddenly stopped winning things then they’d get a bit of attention for a bit because they’ve been so dominant.
 
That line of defence might count for something if he was managing a smaller team. We've won two trophies but winning trophies has never been the be all and end all for me.

You need to supplement it with other things if you're going to succeed at a top club. There's a responsibility to be competitive at all levels, even if you aren't necessarily winning. There's also a responsibility to play football that's somewhat watchable, even if it isn't perfect. Ten Hag has failed on both of those criteria, as did Mourinho when he was parading around with a League Cup and a Europa League.

The domestic league is our bread and butter. If you're finishing 8th or 6th in those and try and pass off a season as a success because you've won a trophy in another competition, you're delusional. We sacked Louis van Gaal when he missed out on top 4 by goal difference and he won an FA Cup that season. I didn't like the way the news broke on the day of the cup final but it was ultimately the correct decision. If you're incapable of competing with your domestic rivals, what is the point of being here?
 
SER19 said:
I think the recent discussions show managers can't win when fans have turned on them. Solskjaer was ridiculed beyond belief despite his comments obviously needing context - for saying league position is a good measure of progress. Now ten hag gets the same ridicule for pointing to trophies hes won.

So much of the stuff managers gets criticised for his ridiculous, especially when you consider most are just filling air time with media obligations
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Ole was ridiculed for a bunch of reasons but that quote you're talking about was because he said something like trophies can be an ego thing. This was in the middle of our longest trophy drought in decades. What ETH has shown is United fans aren't satisfied ( rightly so) with the odd trophy and top 4. We want to be the best at home and abroad and that is the standard all future United managers will ultimately get judged on. ETH has gotten special leeway not afforded his predecessors because he came in when we were at a super low point and got some tangible results. Even last year before the cup final his credit had run out for a lot of fans. After winning it against City, three games into the next season and that FA cup credit is also disappearing fast. Elite level sports is about what you are doing now, not the past. No one cares about last season, it's all what have you done for me lately and that's the way it should be( with reasonable context of course)
 
Rozay said:
It is a measure of success. An 8th placed league finish is a measure of failure. When the two or conflated, one clearly outweighs the other.

It also works the other way around. If we had won the league, it would be a measure of success. If we had gone out in the group stage of the CL, it would be a measure of failure. When the two are conflated, one would hugely outweigh the other, and we’d be considered a success, although it would be noted that we need to do better in Europe.

Ultimately, our cup wins are a tick, our embarrassing league form is a cross, and the cross is a lot bigger than the tick.
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Good summary
 
It depends. If you win a cup and get relegated nobody would say you've progressed. You can extrapolate from there, until it becomes a more difficult trade off between league position/performances etc and winning a cup. If you're climbing the league season by season and then start winning cups, it can be a sign of progress.
 
Josep Dowling said:
100% this. When Ole finished second and got to two cup finals we were told he hadn’t won anything. Now with Ten Hag it’s the opposite. Frankly the media obsession with United is boring at this point. Focus on another club.
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two cup finals? Can only remember one. EtH got to three, Jose got to three, Ole got one and LvG one is how i remember it.
 
League position is a better marker for progress. There’s a lot of luck involved in winning the cups as it’s very dependent on your draw etc. The FA cup win last year was a good win but it doesn’t mask our poor league finish.
 
Winning that first trophy for a coach is either a blessing where they go on to greater things if the squad is strong or it just papers over the cracks if they are inept.
 
altodevil said:
Meaningless as a measure of progress, in my opinion.
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That's a much more reasoned argument.

People writing off trophies as a waste of time is always annoying, usually followed by loving it when it's their own club!
 
Sky1981 said:
Last season i was laughed for saying Arsenal had a better season than us.
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Competing for the league late on always has to be better than a cup and 8th place.

A cup and say 3rd place and you have much more of an argument.
 
The league and to a lesser degree the CL are the main indicators of progress for clubs of Uniteds stature. Winning those requires teams to perform to a high level consistently. Based on that we're not only failing to progress, we're regressing under Ten Hag
 
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