They will always justify it with "Everyone is doing it" or "There is no other way to break up the big 6". Humans are amazing at denying unpleasant truths.
Are there any City fans that accept it’s tainted?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Jamie (@Vault Dweller) get the depressing job of reviewing United's 3-0 loss at Old Trafford to Liverpool. They discuss what went wrong, Casemiro's day to forget, and the pressure now on Erik Ten Hag. They also take some time to give McTominay a proper farewell, and give their overall thoughts on the Summer Transfer Window.
Why would they care?
The same fans that are feeling it’s tainted today, will not forget to mention how sweet this victory felt years down the line.
We already celebrate criminality as being smart. If rules were followed major corporations and governments across the world will be punished regularly. Top criminals(lawyers and accountants) should’ve all been treated to appropriate jail time of robbers and dealers but nowe call them a success.
The same fans that are feeling it’s tainted today, will not forget to mention how sweet this victory felt years down the line.
We already celebrate criminality as being smart. If rules were followed major corporations and governments across the world will be punished regularly. Top criminals(lawyers and accountants) should’ve all been treated to appropriate jail time of robbers and dealers but nowe call them a success.
It's the cheating that's the problem, mate. Are you unaware of the serious financial irregularities and cosy sponsorships from companies all owned by the same people who own the feckin club?
Of course you're not, so stop playing dumb.
Every British football fan in their 30s and 40s grew up knowing nothing other than Manchester United dominance. It's why so many find joy in our misfortunes since Fergie retired.
For many, they also grew up (falsely) hearing about how United bought their success, and this has been passed down to today's younger fans. Any protests there may have been about Chelsea's sudden spending power in the media quickly went quiet, just as they did when City won the lottery, and just as they have now Newcastle have limitless spending power.
Ultimately, many fans of other clubs were just happy to see teams not Manchester United winning, because as far as they were concerned, we bought our success, so what does it matter if another team buys theirs. You only have to look at City and Newcastle to also see how they're all (not so) secretly hopeful that their club will be the next bought by a multi-billionaire.
The vast majority of football fans, ours included, do not care about the source of their owner's wealth, nor the human rights records or political stances of their countrymen.
The tide will soon turn with City and people will grow tired of their dominance.
This.
Aside from Blackburn's one and done we were pulling the ladder up from beneath us until Chelsea arrived, only occasionally matched by the shrewdness of Arsenal. It's weird how this is seen as accepted for football clubs, but the same fans are in outrage when the rich do the same out there in the world.
As strange as it may sound the PL owe a share of its popularity to Roman and (sadly) the Glazers.
To be honest stuff like this is just embarrassing. I think rather than "admitting" anything, I think what most of them are doing is laughing at the cringeworthy outrage.
We need to get on with it. The elephant in the room is the fact that we've spent colossal sums ourselves, and if that had been aligned with the sort of decision making City have had, then there's no doubt in my mind we'd be competing at the sharp end of competitions. It's pretty hollow to be moaning about what they've done and how when we throw outrageous sums of money around in what is a clownfest of a sport economically and in terms of governance. The same lack of oversight is what got us leveraged to feck and bought out by Americans, and them taken over by a state. Different outcomes but the same broken mess, the only difference really is luck and being in the right place at the right time.
It strikes me we're hating the players rather than the game. If it had governance which was about improving the sport and protecting the average fan then we wouldn't be in this situation, but instead we're sat around blaming the symptom rather than the cause. You've got no chance with the way the PL, UEFA, FIFA run this sport.
We need to get on with it. The elephant in the room is the fact that we've spent colossal sums ourselves, and if that had been aligned with the sort of decision making City have had, then there's no doubt in my mind we'd be competing at the sharp end of competitions. It's pretty hollow to be moaning about what they've done and how when we throw outrageous sums of money around in what is a clownfest of a sport economically and in terms of governance. The same lack of oversight is what got us leveraged to feck and bought out by Americans, and them taken over by a state. Different outcomes but the same broken mess, the only difference really is luck and being in the right place at the right time.
It strikes me we're hating the players rather than the game. If it had governance which was about improving the sport and protecting the average fan then we wouldn't be in this situation, but instead we're sat around blaming the symptom rather than the cause. You've got no chance with the way the PL, UEFA, FIFA run this sport.
This.
It's one of the reasons why, even on here when I read comments, that I always say the world isn't a perfect place, so there's no point getting worked up or taking any of it seriously.
@cheekybackheel I've had similar anecdotal conversations about City lately. Brilliant ones in your post there, but some Liverpool season ticket holders have been saying "feck them both" which is honestly about as high praise as I'd ever imagine because normally it would have been only United they'd have it in for, so the hate for the blue side is finally getting to even the scousers
Some neutrals I knew wanted United to win on Saturday which is probably the first time I've heard a neutral genuinely to want us winning since the 90's. It's unheard of.
I've also had that from Liverpool fans I bump into on the school run! Both staunch Liverpool too, was like a walk of shame when they beat us a few months ago, got some right stick, but over City it's a completely different attitude, same as you, they wanted United to win the FA Cup.
I grew up when Liverpool were winning everything (late 70's/80's) so I've no love for them, but like a few others have mentioned, that also comes from a level of respect that what they won, they won fair and square, they never cheated. I also get that impression from them about Fergies reign, they may have hated it, but they respected it.
The day Fergie passes away I at least know the Scousers will hold a proper minutes silence at Anfield and a good clap, but I can't say the same thing about Citys fans. I could just see them dancing with their backs to the pitch.
Never thought I would say it but maybe this whole issue of City cheating is one where Man Utd and Liverpool fans actually come together.
No one likes a cheat.
People keep saying "tainted" but it is a wrong word to decribe it.
Imo, tainted is when you win something by obvious cheating or with refs help (Barca CL 2009).
City is guilty or not guilty by the law. If they will be found not guilty, it is legit treble. Yes, they "bought" it with insane spending but it is still legit.
If they will be found guilty (i hope) then they will lose all these titles.
BUT, if verdict says that they are guilty (even for one single case) and they keep titles THEN it is tainted and it will be huge football travesty.
Imo, tainted is when you win something by obvious cheating or with refs help (Barca CL 2009).
City is guilty or not guilty by the law. If they will be found not guilty, it is legit treble. Yes, they "bought" it with insane spending but it is still legit.
If they will be found guilty (i hope) then they will lose all these titles.
BUT, if verdict says that they are guilty (even for one single case) and they keep titles THEN it is tainted and it will be huge football travesty.
They were found guilty by UEFA so by your definition it's already tainted
I don't really care if they "cheated" by circumventing FFP since European football as it is makes a mockery out of fairness anyway. Doesn't really matter to me which club has the unfair advantage. It's the top teams that are complaining now but they had no issues with the system advantaging them when they were the ones profitting from it. They may have bought the title but when we're being honest, that's probably the case of all European titles won in the last decades to varying extents.
There's so much that can be criticized about City, though. I wish there were far more reports about the human rights abuses committed by the owners of the club or what they are actually trying to achieve with this whole sportswashing thing, how they try to influence European politics, etc. It is kind of telling that stuff that should be less important gets so much more media attention. People seem to be bothered more by the fact City abolished the dominance of traditional clubs through a monetary advantage than the fact that family members of the owner can go unpunished after raping a business partner, burning him alive and running him over with a car and that's sad.
That is something I would want Guardiola to be asked about.
There's so much that can be criticized about City, though. I wish there were far more reports about the human rights abuses committed by the owners of the club or what they are actually trying to achieve with this whole sportswashing thing, how they try to influence European politics, etc. It is kind of telling that stuff that should be less important gets so much more media attention. People seem to be bothered more by the fact City abolished the dominance of traditional clubs through a monetary advantage than the fact that family members of the owner can go unpunished after raping a business partner, burning him alive and running him over with a car and that's sad.
That is something I would want Guardiola to be asked about.
This isn't the middle ages so anyone who prefers a Kangaroo Court, when the charges are so serious and complicated, is going to have a long wait.
That's what it's all about at the end of the day. Getting one over on our rivals. Proper small time mentality. No wonder people are whoring themselves out to Qatar like some cheap hooker.
We have the option of just not following the club if that happens
As much as I dislike city and owners etc, most of the city fans that post here I don't grudge the success. Most of the guys here have been following the club for a long long time and are great to interact with. I wouldn't want them to feel anything negative.
I hope pep and the owners do feel that way though.
I hope pep and the owners do feel that way though.
Will the fans who are rooting for Qatar owenership accept all of our trophies won will be tainted too if they take over?
There isnt a scenario in which you dont get tossed in with Newcastle and Man City if you are Qatari owned. No having your cake and eating it too im afraid.
Yup. It will be interesting I must say. I mean it already happened with the world cup, people who were angry at Qatar world cup turning a blind eye on potential Qatar ownership of United.
30 threads on the front page of the 'Football Forum' of a Manchester United internet space and nearly half of them are about or related to Manchester City. This website is broken.
Depends if we start breaking FFP rules.
Yes, but what about state ownership per se.
If we break the rules and are slapped with 115 charges then yeah, sure. But still United have done it all before having a mega rich owner. We won all the trophies and attracted all the players just by being the biggest club in the world. There isn’t a single City player, manager or coach that would be anywhere near city if it wasn’t for the money. City are in reality no bigger than Wigan or Reading.
I don’t think they’ll be the ones arguing City’s success is tainted to be fair, they just want trophies and don’t really care how that happens or if they’re lumped in with other state owned clubs.
That's all true but we wont be able to mock City for their state ownership anymore, we'll be in the same basket as them and Newcastle.
Yeah, but there will be a number of people who will just change their opinion over night.
The way I see it, yes they massively cheated the FFP rules early on in the new owners' time. They used all sorts of chicanery to inject money into the club and broke some rules - they should very likely be punished for that. But, the problem we have is that in reality in the last few years they have really run the club extremely well, while we and others have spaffed money away, so it is really hard to say 'it is tainted' without acknowledging that to some extent.
This is where it's at for me away from the money they have the best infrastructure in world football. They have key people in all the right places and it filters down to their success on the field. The best manager is a plus. Until a club matches that level of awareness in the hierarchy it will be hard to keep up. Money is a big factor with City but United have spent similar amounts over a long period in accumulation but the structure is what's failing the team's success.
I know Murtough has shown promise but realistically the jury is still out with him and Arnold, whereas they've accommodated Begiristain from the success at Barcelona and everything's fallen into place.
City fans have this narrative that everything is stacked against them. And that they have to overcome adversity.
This is nonsense, this is not a David versus Goliath story. City is the Goliath, and everybody else in the David.
Without the sports washing, City would be relegation fodder, probably in the championship. Everybody knows it. The world knows it. Which is why nobody will ever give them any kind of respect, because it is a fake and meaningless status quo.
If someone works hard all their life and buys a Ferrari, you would respect them more that someone who was given one as a present. The person driving around in their free Ferrari, cannot pretend that they are a success or that they deserve respect, for doing nothing.
That is how the world works.
This is nonsense, this is not a David versus Goliath story. City is the Goliath, and everybody else in the David.
Without the sports washing, City would be relegation fodder, probably in the championship. Everybody knows it. The world knows it. Which is why nobody will ever give them any kind of respect, because it is a fake and meaningless status quo.
If someone works hard all their life and buys a Ferrari, you would respect them more that someone who was given one as a present. The person driving around in their free Ferrari, cannot pretend that they are a success or that they deserve respect, for doing nothing.
That is how the world works.
If you don't follow the rules of the sport then it is cheating, simple.
Plus many payments have been shown to be "off the books" by City e.g. Mancini getting a payout in the UAE or Peps brother owning Girona FC with City's owners. So I don't accept that any club has spent as much as City have over the last decade or so. I mean, according to City's accountants they have the biggest turnover of any club, yet barely any fans, and most of the "sponsors" in that time have been linked to the owners.
You have to be blind not to see it. Or wilfully dumb.
More than you believe
Yes, unfortunately.
Their success is tainted because of the cheating not because of who the owners are
Not really. It's both.
I do not think they care, I know that I wouldn’t care if I was in their position. There is absolutely no way a non historically big club can join the big clubs except of financial doping. They did what everyone in their position would have done.
Really, really good point here. My argument with city fans begins with asking "would it be fair for the German government to buy and run Manchester United". It's equally ridiculous to the situation we have at Manchester City. The usual whataboitisms get levied - Berlusconi at AC Milan, Franco at Madrid - and the problem is that it's completely correct. Government entities, states, and politicians as a whole should NOT be fit persons to run football clubs because of the reasons you mention here (undue influence etc) and their various conflicts of interest.
Not withstanding another tangential point - if I was a person working in such states, would I be happy knowing my government was funding Erling Haaland instead of (say) a working health system and benefits, roads, projects in my country of origin. Felt the same about Abramovich spending what was essentially laundered Russian petrodollars in order to win trophies - the British government and premier league were complicit in that, essentially simply rubbing their hands at the investment without ever caring where it came from.
City being state owned is bad for the league, it's rendered the league uncompetitive in my opinion but that's a different argument. If that was the only issue there'd be a lot of sour grapes for them having won the lottery etc. but there wouldn't really be much other genuine criticism.
Then there's the second part of this which is who that state are, the undoubted sports washing angle to the ownership which you can literally see working in this very forum. That's again another argument but one I don't think people can really justify as being good in any way.
However, even ignoring the above, the issue is very simply for the criticism of the team, Pep and the club (after all they can't really affect the ownership) is that they have cheated to become what they are today.
Especially when the big associations like to argue that "sport should be apolitical" when it comes to wearing rainbow armlets but happily accept completely politcally motivated ownerships and/or tournament hostings as long as the paycheck is big enough.
Yeah, exactly.
If United end up owned by the Qatari state, any future silverware will be tainted to some degree as well. You’ll never again have the pure dopamine rush of winning things like under Fergie and knowing that you not only climbed the mountain but did it the right way, establishing a standard all others would look up to and want to emulate. It’ll feel good to win in the moment but deep down you’ll know it’s not the same.
I don’t understand why people want that. A club like City is much easier to understand as they were nothing beforehand. A club like United needs sportwashing less than any other club in the world.
That is your point of view though, many fans of other clubs complained about how money is the problem and were not happy how football is dominated by a few clubs because of it.
I am not sure I agree, other clubs have spent similar amounts but City have spent it better. Liverpool have spent a lot less but were keeping up with City for a time.
At the moment City just have everything going well for them, it won't last, things will change. Losing Pep will be a big blow for them whenever it happens.