Are the players not good enough or not professional enough?

Ten Hag finished 3rd with a lot of the same players only 2 seasons ago (+ a very in form Rashford)
I don't understand how the lot of them have dropped off so badly
 
The number one issue currently is that we have players who don't want to compete for headers at set pieces. If we don't have de ligt and Maguire then we are basically at the mercy of the other team putting their routine into practice. Casemiro would help. Some are absolute liabilities. I would not be surprised if they are targeted. The ball would be played towards whoever is being marked by them.
 
Overrated talent wise, and not good enough mentality wise.

Doesn't help we overpay the majority of them too.
 
Skills said:
And other fans don't?

Why didn't Liverpool fans turn their club into a toxic shit hole for their players through the 90s, 2000s and 2010s like ours have for the last decade?
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Lack of social media then meant that those critical fans voices didn’t travel.

With social media, a fan option from a 12 year old 30k miles away from OT can carry as much weight than that of a fan who travels home and away.

I dont agree our fan base is toxic. And even if it is, is that an excuse for the 10 years of mediocrity?
 
There simply not good enough, we have some exciting players coming through like Diallo and Garnacho but there no where near good enough if you want to finish top four and inconsistent. I'm not sure if Hojlund will ever be good enough, seems to have little acceleration and takes an hour to shift the ball at his feet. With Ole we had a forward line of Sancho, Rashford, Greenwood, Cavani and which is miles ahead of where we are now in all honesty.

The only players that I see are good enough at the minute are Bruno and Mazraoui in all honesty where the likes of Diallo, Garancho, Hojlund should be playing in cup games or coming on in the 60th when a game is won.

Rest of the squad is just bang average. I can see Rashford going to Arsenal where he will probably bang in 20+ goals as a striker. Our squad is just crap and I think we are the worst at crossing the ball in the league and our our link up play is astrocious.
 
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The most worrying ones are the ones that don’t give a feck because it potentially rubs off elsewhere in the squad, especially on the younger players who we absolutely don’t want them to be around. They’re the ones we need out ASAP.

The players who aren’t good enough have the potential to still try if given the right encouragement by Amorim.

I’d also add a ‘sick note’ category in there with the likes of Shaw and Mount, and historically Martial, Schweinsteiger and Varane. We seem to ignore injury records for some players or players suddenly become injury prone when they come here, and the Glazer/Woodward approach of keeping their contract at a decent length ‘to preserve value’ was beyond stupid.
 
To me it just looks like most of our players lack drive, they coast looking for someone else to stand up and make the difference. The first change I would make is to change the captain, the captain needs to be the example for the others to follow, the captain needs to be tireless, positive and professional. He should be able to empower those around him. This definitely isn't Bruno who is too negative.
 
We are performing as a mid-table team because most of our players are of mid-table quality.
 
ABTEK said:
The current team was assembled in a relatively short period of time. The players who have been around longer unfortunately came through similar structural issues that their predecessors faced. There's been a terrible cycle going on for most of the post-SAF era - each season our team has been characterized by a lack of cohesion, identity, physicality, and perseverance in unfavorable situations.

It's easier to add two or three above-average players like Gakpo to an already well-oiled machine like Liverpool than to add a prime Ronaldo to a dysfunctional team like ours.

The problem requires a long-term fix: building the team with the right profile of players while creating cohesion and identity. I trust the current coaching staff is capable of achieving that based on early signs.
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This is true, but, also, Wilcox and Vivell know how to build inside that “cohesive framework” you need.

United need to revamp the salary structure and come to terms with what they are building and how long it will take. From the moment our new owners took over Chelsea they started drilling “project 2030” into everyone associated with the club. That doesn’t mean we are vastly ahead of schedule. You can win earlier. It means that have a step by step 7 year plan not only to have one of the top teams in the world, but to elevate the identity and brand of the club so that it is one of the top overall clubs in the world.

They have everything planned, down to the timeline for the marketing team for ticket tales to the new stadium engaging.

Does Ineos have a plan for even.. say… Bruno? Say it takes 2 or 3 windows to clear out some players and be at a level to compete for top 4. Let’s say it takes a few tweaks from that point and another season or two to compete for a title while also playing CL football. Just as you kick into gear Bruno will be hitting 33, 34 years old.

It seems weird to build something “new” around a primary player and captain that won’t be around when it’s ready to really compete. Add to that the fact he’s one of the people that throws your whole pay structure out of whack.

Thats one of the reasons we were only targeting people in a certain age range.

They should have a coordinated plan for all of this. That plan, if possible, should convince the Glazers that enough spending outside of PSR for facilities, stadium, etc is required that it might be in their best interests to step aside so the core of what Man United is can shine through (at a sizeable profit to them, of course).
 
SouthernRedDev said:
To me it just looks like most of our players lack drive, they coast looking for someone else to stand up and make the difference. The first change I would make is to change the captain, the captain needs to be the example for the others to follow, the captain needs to be tireless, positive and professional. He should be able to empower those around him. This definitely isn't Bruno who is too negative.
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This is it, literally! Start with a captain. Current not many in this side are capt material, perhaps De-ligt at a push. Too many passive mental midgets in this side. Expect some more drubbings this season.
 
The ones that are good enough aren't professional enough.

The ones that are professional enough aren't good enough.
 
Not good enough and overrated.

A lot of the time we don't like to admit to ourselves that players we like are perhaps, maybe, possibly, not as good as we think they are.

There's a lot of them in our squad and if you were to name them on this forum, you'd get piled on!
 
Skills said:
The whole thing around attributing everything to players professionalism is specific to the Man Utd fanbase. Manchester United's fanbase hate footballers - it's a weird thing, but the collective fanbase just doesn't like footballers.

I don't believe other clubs have more or less professional players than us, but as a club we fester a terrible environment around them. We've seldom made any effort whatsoever in the last 10 years since Fergies' retired to protect our players - we've thrown them to the wolves at any given opportunity.
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I think it's a symptom of the cult worship many fans have of the managers position. Many find it hard to criticise the manager (understandably given fergie was an ever present for a generation) and they've invested a lot into believing the current boss (who ever that's been at the time ) is the one to lead us back to the promised land. And so if it's not his fault that we're struggling then it must be those pesky, lazy, unprofessional trouble making players.

You only have to look back to the Moyes era for evidence of this phenomena, one of the most professional squads in world football with vast experience and a deep rooted winning culture were blamed by many for Moyes failings. And accused of all the same things virtually every squad since has been accused of since then when a manager starts struggling.
 
SouthernRedDev said:
To me it just looks like most of our players lack drive, they coast looking for someone else to stand up and make the difference. The first change I would make is to change the captain, the captain needs to be the example for the others to follow, the captain needs to be tireless, positive and professional. He should be able to empower those around him. This definitely isn't Bruno who is too negative.
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Agree re drive, though Bruno has at least that fire in him which few of our players do.

For me it’s incredibly simple, I think us fans lose sight of the reality of professional football and assume all these guys are hardwired to be perfect when the reality is all it takes is one bad egg in a changing room and suddenly others start to mess around, try 1% less than before and it will snowball. United really let things snowball and now the clean up will take time.
 
We’re desperate for some leaders amongst men in the team. I can’t think of one at the moment. All our great sides were full of them. They don’t even need to be the most talented players. Just lead by example, demand the highest of standards of effort and drive and inspire our talented younger players. We need to find a core of these making one of them the captain. Bruno is not captain material of this great club.
 
Silverman said:
It's something that can be hard to put your finger on.
You hear lots of people berating the players but it can be for different reasons.
Some say that they just aren't good enough while others say they are throwing managers under the bus by not wanting to work hard and apply themselves properly.
Its said that "these are the same players that got previous managers sacked". However, apart from Ten Hag, this squad is vastly different to even the one Solskjaer left let alone Van Gaal and Mourinho etc.
Has the people in charge of recruitment made a hames of the set up or are the players we signed just being infected by the rot that is seeping through Old Trafford?
I know there are players that will have to be replaced for various reasons such as Lindelof, Evans, Eriksen, Casemiro and Rashford for example.
However, are we also saying that players such as Onana, Martinez, Dalot, DeLigt, Antony, Mainoo, Mount, Garnacho, Hojlund and Zirkzee have to be replaced as they aren't good enough or they aren't professional enough?
The only players that can hold their head high are Amad, Ugarte and Mazraoui imo.

We were linked to Cody Gakpo and Ryan Gravenberch in the past few years. They are both playing brilliantly at Liverpool but you just know they would be a shadow of that player had they joined us.

What is the actual problem?
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The problem has been a self reinforcing cycle of owners, executives, managers, and players.

Frankly, the players should be at the bottom of any list attempting to diagnose post 2013 United since they don’t buy or manage themselves. It requires consistent mismanagement from owners and executives to plunge a club from top of the table into mid table obscurity.
 
The attitude is not there. There's also nobody in squad to hold others accountable for not putting in a shift. Best we have is Bruno having a whinge, he won't be going Roy Keane on someone like Rashford, and start swinging punches for walking around instead of putting a tackle in.

Also, most of them are mid.
 
MiceOnMeth said:
Ten Hag finished 3rd with a lot of the same players only 2 seasons ago (+ a very in form Rashford)
I don't understand how the lot of them have dropped off so badly
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Casimero , Eriksen and Varane were all on their last legs and pulled out solid seasons. Rashford hit a purple patch , but overall we never looked totally convincing that season. Had some scrappy wins and had a couple of shocking results. The rebuild has been needed since Ralfs open heart surgery comment. We have had some terrible windows which has set us back
 
Skills said:
The whole thing around attributing everything to players professionalism is specific to the Man Utd fanbase. Manchester United's fanbase hate footballers - it's a weird thing, but the collective fanbase just doesn't like footballers.

I don't believe other clubs have more or less professional players than us, but as a club we fester a terrible environment around them. We've seldom made any effort whatsoever in the last 10 years since Fergies' retired to protect our players - we've thrown them to the wolves at any given opportunity.
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If players perform they will be respected and liked, but when they give up or cant be bothered, as has been the case with several players over the last few years since Sir Alex retired, why should they expect anything else? Jimmy Murphy famously instilled in players the need for them to go out and do their best because supporters who have spent the week grafting in poorly paid jobs want not only to be entertained but they expect to see them try at the very least. Similar words were expressed by Sir Matt, Tommy Docherty, Ron Atkinson and of course Sir Alex and those sentiments are still relevant today but seem to be lost on most of those who have played for United the last 8 years or so.
 
ShoePolish said:
The attitude is not there. There's also nobody in squad to hold others accountable for not putting in a shift. Best we have is Bruno having a whinge, he won't be going Roy Keane on someone like Rashford, and start swinging punches for walking around instead of putting a tackle in.

Also, most of them are mid.
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I agree, few in our current squad posess the attitude and attributes required to be top players; for most of them accountability and responsibility are foreign concepts while whining and whinging are the norms.
 
I often whinge about application and attitude of the players.

Stepping back and reflecting, I can see a combination of morale, pressure and anxiety in their performances. That comes with playing for Manchester United. It gets worse with each defeat and harder to break the cycle.

We can talk about mentality and compare today’s players to players of old. But not one of those players had to play in this sort of situation. They also weren’t living in this age of toxic social media. Dealing with the mainstream press is one thing. This is a completely different one.

They are not bad players. Most of them we’ve either raved about their signings. Or waxed lyrical about their talent when they break into the first team.

Every one of those players is suffering. Just like we are as supporters.

For anyone who has dealt with anxiety, you will know how sapping it is. It touches your very fibre. You feel it not just in your mind, but in your nerves, lungs, muscles. This is what we are seeing on the pitch.

I’m sure the management team do their best to have them feeling great for the start of each game. Sometimes they are successful. We’ve seen this with good starts. 5/10/15 mins. But it can just take one small thing to break that. And it’s infectious. The result against City could have been a turning point. But then mistakes against Bournemouth set them straight back to square one.

We can bleat about the amount of money they’re on. That they’re playing for Manchester United. That they should be able to deal with this. But they’re still human.

I’m sure that they are trying. And trying hard.

In an ideal world, all the fans would realise this. Instead of piling on social media to berate this player and that, they would offer words of support and encouragement.

Even more important, the match going supporters would encourage and cajole and loudly, vocally support. This would help enormously. But, they are only human as well. The anxiety around this club is pervasive.

I’m as bad as anybody. I can’t chastise anyone for groaning at a mistake. Or saying this player or that player are terrible. Because I’ve done it. I’ve felt it.

But from this point on, I’m going to try and stop.

Because we really are in a crisis. This team of players, whether we currently like them or not, are our team. And they need support.

We want them to perform when circumstances are really, really tough. The toughest I have ever known in my lifetime.

Maybe we should look at ourselves?
 
I know people here say toxic to refer to our fanbase, but have they seen the fanbase of Real, Inter or Barca?

No team would accept players not even fighting for headers in corners. Unfortunately, our fans have not made it clear to our players the last 10 years, that they need to be accountable. Heavy booing instead of clapping would not be a bad start.

I m not talking about threats, abuse in social media (or physical violence, as Ajax fans did last year), but we need a way to show them that they are not celebrated here anymore and they will be regarded as shit players in our history.
 
led_scholes said:
Unfortunately, our fans have not made it clear to our players the last 10 years, that they need to be accountable. Heavy booing instead of clapping would not be a bad start.
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I couldn’t disagree more strongly with this.

With respect, Real, Barca and Inter play in different cultures, and still near the top of their leagues in European contention. They are not suffering the way we are right now.

Negativity breeds negativity.
 
StuCol said:
I couldn’t disagree more strongly with this.

With respect, Real, Barca and Inter play in different cultures, and still near the top of their leagues in European contention. They are not suffering the way we are right now.

Negativity breeds negativity.
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Whats different about their cultures? Cultures where winning is the priority you mean?

Also everything about United is negative regardless of fans at OT clapping for this bunch of useless failures, so negativity breading negativity is a redundant thing to say
 
StuCol said:
I often whinge about application and attitude of the players.

Stepping back and reflecting, I can see a combination of morale, pressure and anxiety in their performances. That comes with playing for Manchester United. It gets worse with each defeat and harder to break the cycle.

We can talk about mentality and compare today’s players to players of old. But not one of those players had to play in this sort of situation. They also weren’t living in this age of toxic social media. Dealing with the mainstream press is one thing. This is a completely different one.

They are not bad players. Most of them we’ve either raved about their signings. Or waxed lyrical about their talent when they break into the first team.

Every one of those players is suffering. Just like we are as supporters.

For anyone who has dealt with anxiety, you will know how sapping it is. It touches your very fibre. You feel it not just in your mind, but in your nerves, lungs, muscles. This is what we are seeing on the pitch.

I’m sure the management team do their best to have them feeling great for the start of each game. Sometimes they are successful. We’ve seen this with good starts. 5/10/15 mins. But it can just take one small thing to break that. And it’s infectious. The result against City could have been a turning point. But then mistakes against Bournemouth set them straight back to square one.

We can bleat about the amount of money they’re on. That they’re playing for Manchester United. That they should be able to deal with this. But they’re still human.

I’m sure that they are trying. And trying hard.

In an ideal world, all the fans would realise this. Instead of piling on social media to berate this player and that, they would offer words of support and encouragement.

Even more important, the match going supporters would encourage and cajole and loudly, vocally support. This would help enormously. But, they are only human as well. The anxiety around this club is pervasive.

I’m as bad as anybody. I can’t chastise anyone for groaning at a mistake. Or saying this player or that player are terrible. Because I’ve done it. I’ve felt it.

But from this point on, I’m going to try and stop.

Because we really are in a crisis. This team of players, whether we currently like them or not, are our team. And they need support.

We want them to perform when circumstances are really, really tough. The toughest I have ever known in my lifetime.

Maybe we should look at ourselves?
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"Pressure?" "Anxiety?"These are things I associate with people struggling to make even the most meagre of livings in order to feed their families; or with police or military personell in situations where their next actions could cost lives, you know the sort of thing, real "pressure" as opposed to being paid small fortunes to kick an inflated ball around a football pitch.
Yes there have always been players who turn to drink, Jimmy Greaves and George Best being two of the most famous in their day, but like these, most players who drank did so through boredom or the need to be seen as "one of the lads" and pressure only came when they could no longer perform on the pitch to accepted and their own standards. And Im sure there have been and are now players who do not possess the mental strength to cope with life in general, but, especially in this modern era, no player has to force himself to play when he's unfit, mentally or physically, and those with real problems can retire with plenty of cash in the bank.
But lack of desire, lack of spirit, lethargy and poor attitudes on the football pitch are, in most cases, not down to "mental health" but laziness and self entitlement.
A dear friend of mine, a devoted Chelsea supporter, and life long Club Member, remembers when, stuck in the old Division 2 and staring oblivion in the face, the club struggled to pay their players as Stamford Bridge crumbled around them; the players would often help get the pitch ready or do other tasks just to keep the club going until they were finally rescued by Abramovich. Unlike too many of our players, these Chelsea players, not all, Im sure, had the desire and attitude needed to help get their club out of crisis rather than bleating about their misfortunes.
Without a doubt there are players today who play football not just because of the money but because the game is in their blood, they love and live for football.....its just a shame that Manchester United has very few such players today.
 
MiceOnMeth said:
Ten Hag finished 3rd with a lot of the same players only 2 seasons ago (+ a very in form Rashford)
I don't understand how the lot of them have dropped off so badly
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Cause they can and would only play one style of football that require little work and football iq. The moment they are forced to play outside their comfort zone they crumble
 
The struggling started when we rely on the likes of Rashford and Hojlund to score goals. Prior to this, we looked Ok.

No team can dominate the game with the attacking array of current United.
 
Poor mentality
Poor decision making
Not good enough
No leaders
legs have gone
Lazy/paid too much so no motivation

Multiple are more than one of the above

I hate using them as an example but look at the mentality of the Liverpool players which is part of the culture instilled by Klopp and has continued. They are working hard even when theyre leading games. Ours stroll around and only seem to wake up if we go behind. We shoot ourselves in the foot so many times by potentially going a goal up or getting a goal back, before then a stupid error leads to us going back to square one

I think there's a lot of players hiding, so many of our 99 side would be rousing the team if we were struggling, none of this bunch do, no one takes any accountability or leads by example, the most we get is Bruno arm waving and whining

All that money, wasted, and now we are in an FFP situation so can't even start to rectify it. It needs a fifa style clear out, which of course can't happen and who will want most of these, bar the few we actually want to keep such as Amad.

It really irritates me they can put in shit performance after shit performance but probably don't care as they will still pick up their massive wages. Isn't that part of the culture at Liverpool where there's a wage structure and everyone no matter how good you are, fits into it.

I feel very very few of them get the club, I watched a documentary on the 99 treble side and they all got it. Very very few of this lot do, and if they do, usually they fall into one of the categories I listed at the start of this post.

there's too few who would fall into the willing and able category

Most are either willing but not able, not willing but able, and there's a fair few who are not willing and not able
 
Some of the players are for sure not good enough, and we need to sell them and replace them:

These players have to be sold:
- Zirkzee: He has only had a half year in United and is young, but he is just not good enough and one of ETH`s weird dutch signings.
- Malacia: Another one of ETH`s weird dutch signings, who is not good enough. We lack left backs, but still need to sell Malacia.
- Casemiro: Is only good at set pieces. Needs to play at a lower level.
- Eriksen: I love him, but he is done. Clever, good passes - but so slow you can almost walk pass him.

These players can be sold:
- Rashford: He is not done at top level, but I can not see a way back for him under Amorim.
- Evans: Too slow, but ok back-up.
- Antony: His wage is just crazy and he offers too little. But small signs of improvment.

These players can not be sold:
- Garnacho: Young talent, who is not in great form. But the talent is there.
- Amad: The only positive development under Amorim so far and so fast and creative. Great attitude.
- Mainoo: Great talent.
- Yoro: Great talent.
- Maguire: One of our best preforming players right now.
- De Ligt
- Mazraoui

The rest:
Sell them if the price is really, really good (Saudi-good).
 
The squad lacks people who are winners. Aside from Casemiro, who has won anything of note? Casemiro is only there for a big payday as he gets closer to the end of his playing time.

Winners don't let standards slip like they have ever since we appointed David Moyes who said his goal was to finish top 4 with a team that just came off competing for the league. There is a reason why Liverpool (as much as we hate them) are cruising now and Arsenal can't seem to close the league out in the last few months. Winners win, plain and simple.
 
The reality is that our players are just not good enough.
Too many of them are used to lose. Absolutely none of them has a winning mentality.
The club is mostly responsible, keeping year after years the likes of lindelof, Phil jones, luke shaw, maguire, fred, dalot, and so on is an abberation.
The paradoxe is ,and its hard to say, we have developped a loosing mentality and this is keeping up by the players in the club.
 
Most of us are extremely happy that the club hired Amorim, as he seems about the best manager we've possibly could have got.
In the face of the recent bad results and still rather dysfunctional performances, those fans who aren't completely moronic have insisted that the manager needs time. Having come in midseason, etc.
Not even counting the circumstances, he needs time, period.

But why are we instead piling on the players? That's not what patience entails. It must cut both ways. It can't be "oh, we are losing games despite having a good new manager, that must mean the players are all shit".
No. It doesn't mean that. If the manager needs time to work with the team, the team needs time to work with the manager. The players deserve patience too, the whole team does.

Only after time will we see who is up to it and who isn't.
 
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