[Rossa]

If that was one whole year at the age of 32, it's hard to think anything except it's signs of decline.

Darmian is crap and don't understand the point of pointing to him here. He's getting slaughtered whenever he plays for his poor attacking.

It isn't hard if you stop thinking that players at the age of 30 are ready to be tossed out. 6/10 players in the shortlist for Ballon d'Or 2017 was around 30 or more. Valencia has proven time and time again that he is one of the fittest players in the squad. If he played with an injury, like it seemed to me that he did for a while, then it's no wonder he played below his best, as I fully agree that he did. There will be some decline of course, but it's so over the top here. We can't sign 29 year old players because they are too old. It's absolute rubbish. Marcelo is 30 and looks twice as sprightly as a 23 year old Shaw, as does Valencia.

Valencia is far from our biggest concern. Our right wing on the other hand.

 

[Rossa]

This.

I think people should get to grips over the fact that Valencia doesnt take on his man because of the way United are set up under Mourinho and the instructions Valencia has been given. He is following them and its why he keeps on playing and we have chosen to buy a young player to groom for his position instead of a replacement.

I can fully understand that fans want United to play with offensive fullbacks that takes on their opponents and gets in crosses from the touchline. What I dont quite understand is the projection of that opinion on Mourinho. And arguments like we need to buy new players to achieve this, etc, when its quite obviously not something that is important to Mourinho. And it never has been in any of his teams. It will not change with new players.

United as of now is using our FBs first and foremost to stretch the play and to circulate the play to find space between the lines (in front of the penalty area) or the space between FB and CB. When one sees Valencia stop for a a few seconds and wiggle right and wiggle left, he is doing that to invite pressure from the opponents midfield, preferrably to tie up two players and then quickly circulate the ball to Matic or whomever. He doesnt act like this because he sucks or that he does not dare to take on his opponents. Its obviously what he is supposed to do.

Mourinho and most other managers today does not play a crossing game. Its a low percentage way of attacking. You could even argue that crossing the ball against an established defense might be the most prone way to give up possession. Or even risk a transition or a turnover which Mourinho hates as well as many other managers.

People should let up on Valencia. He is easily top-three of the RBs in the PL. He would not do worse than Walker (they are very similar players) in the City team given the same freedom there.

Thank you and welcome!

Good post - agree!

 

[Rossa]

You have just referenced 2 of the best players in the world, who have played at the very highest level.

Valencia is a failed winger, who has never been anywhere near a world class player. He’s done ok as a full back, and would be fine as a squad option, but he’s nowhere near good eounny to be our staring FB.

I’ve never seen a player stifle our attack like turn back Tony does.

Failed winger or converted winger? Two completely different propositions that. I think he was referenced by many, including Pep (whom people are drooling about) as the best rw in the world at one point. Not sure how he stifles our attack more than our complete lack of a right attack. He has to carry that side by himself - no wonder he is reluctant to give up possession.

 

[sherrinford]

Valencia was not a failed winger in any sense, and went on to be a great full back. Last season he wasn’t at the same level as he was prior to that, but there were only a few little signs of decline - a couple of moments switching off defensively, and a few hurried and aimless clearances.

The principle reason for his lesser form was his complete and utter isolation on the flank. Anyone still willing Valencia to dribble at and take on the opposing left back is being very unfair and unrealistic. He is no longer a winger who excels getting to the bye-line one-on-one. That is not his game. And anyone arguing that that’s what we need from our right back is talking fantasy - full backs don’t, and never did, typically dribble and beat players in attack.

 

[el3mel]

It isn't hard if you stop thinking that players at the age of 30 are ready to be tossed out. 6/10 players in the shortlist for Ballon d'Or 2017 was around 30 or more. Valencia has proven time and time again that he is one of the fittest players in the squad. If he played with an injury, like it seemed to me that he did for a while, then it's no wonder he played below his best, as I fully agree that he did. There will be some decline of course, but it's so over the top here. We can't sign 29 year old players because they are too old. It's absolute rubbish. Marcelo is 30 and looks twice as sprightly as a 23 year old Shaw, as does Valencia.

Valencia is far from our biggest concern. Our right wing on the other hand.

He's 33 not 30, and has been showing signs of decline in his play for a whole year now. He doesn't even run anymore.

He's one of our biggest concerns going forward imo but let's agree to disagree.

 

[keener]

I think he's literally the least of our concerns. Yes, we need a long term project backing him up due to his age.

 

[breakout67]

I think he's literally the least of our concerns. Yes, we need a long term project backing him up due to his age.

I believe its the obsession with playing 'fluid' football and for some reason some have pegged fullbacks as attacking players.

Man City use their wide attackers to stretch the pitch as they stay high and wide. Their fullbacks either tuck in to become a centre back, or step up into midfield. Walker makes an attacking run every once in a while and busts a gut to get back into position after he does.

 

[Johan07]

I believe its the obsession with playing 'fluid' football and for some reason some have pegged fullbacks as attacking players.

Man City use their wide attackers to stretch the pitch as they stay high and wide. Their fullbacks either tuck in to become a centre back, or step up into midfield. Walker makes an attacking run every once in a while and busts a gut to get back into position after he does.

Yeah, I agree with that analysis.

United and City doesnt use their FBs so differently as public perception will have it. Mourinho does exactly the same with the tuck in to centre back from the FBs. When Valencia for example is on the ball and in front or level with the CMs; Young or Shaw (after being shouted at by Mourinho) will tuck in to the CBs making it a three at the back with two DMs in front. These five players will then stay behind the ball.

Neither United or City uses the fullbacks as an attacking plan if one by that means getting the fullback down to the touchline and cross the ball (against an established defense). Besides that there is little similarity in the teams offensive setup. The observation how high and wide City plays their wingers is correct and a good example, it reminds a lot of how Barca uses their wingers in the circulation phase.

 

[keener]

I'm all for playing attacking fluid football, using width of the pitch, using backs to overlap which creates even more space for our attackers. To do so, the #1 characteristic is work-rate for those backs working the entire field and knowing when to go and when to stay back a bit.

Valencia's strength in defending and his willingness to work forward AND back are, in my opinion, the fundamental characteristics to this type of back. He's not a skilled winger like Marcelo but he's stronger in defense than any of those other right backs in the league. He's very difficult to get around due to his pace and physicality which forces teams to put in crosses from Young's side or try to play down the middle.

I can see that we all see different things while watching the same game... and I suppose that's what makes the world turn.

 

[worldinmotion66]

I think he's literally the least of our concerns. Yes, we need a long term project backing him up due to his age.

Criminally underrated by his own supporters.

I think only Pogba is as good at receiving the ball under pressure and keeping it. He's got the dogged fighting spirit that only a handful of our players possess. He's as strong as an ox, and he's fiercely loyal to our club.

Love him. El Capitan.

 

[Red_Ramirez]

Under appreciated. He is our Mr.Reliable. He has earnt his spot in the team and deserves respect.

Over the last three seasons he has been, good (15/16), Excellent (16/17) and good (17/18)

If that isnt consistent I dont know what is.

Like someone mentioned already the only concern is a quality long term back-up to eventually take his place due to age.

Last season he played almost every game carrying a knock or injury.

 

[Smores]

I'm all for playing attacking fluid football, using width of the pitch, using backs to overlap which creates even more space for our attackers. To do so, the #1 characteristic is work-rate for those backs working the entire field and knowing when to go and when to stay back a bit.

Valencia's strength in defending and his willingness to work forward AND back are, in my opinion, the fundamental characteristics to this type of back. He's not a skilled winger like Marcelo but he's stronger in defense than any of those other right backs in the league. He's very difficult to get around due to his pace and physicality which forces teams to put in crosses from Young's side or try to play down the middle.

I can see that we all see different things while watching the same game... and I suppose that's what makes the world turn.

There's absolutely zero reason for him to go beyond the midfield though as he'll ruin 9/10 attacks where he's on the ball. If we were able to use him as a completely defensive deep fullback then fine.

I don't agree with the above analysis at all, it's not expecting them to be attacking players but supporting ones and that is what we've always done with our fullbacks

 

[11101]

I'm all for playing attacking fluid football, using width of the pitch, using backs to overlap which creates even more space for our attackers. To do so, the #1 characteristic is work-rate for those backs working the entire field and knowing when to go and when to stay back a bit.

Valencia's strength in defending and his willingness to work forward AND back are, in my opinion, the fundamental characteristics to this type of back. He's not a skilled winger like Marcelo but he's stronger in defense than any of those other right backs in the league. He's very difficult to get around due to his pace and physicality which forces teams to put in crosses from Young's side or try to play down the middle.

I can see that we all see different things while watching the same game... and I suppose that's what makes the world turn.

He almost never runs beyond his man which renders his willingness to move up the pitch pretty useless.

He is also pretty poor positionally and is frequently playing people on side.

He's not the biggest problem we have but it's time for an upgrade.

 

[Red_Ramirez]

He almost never runs beyond his man which renders his willingness to move up the pitch pretty useless.

He is also pretty poor positionally and is frequently playing people on side.

He's not the biggest problem we have but it's time for an upgrade.

He's never been a problem ffs

 

[VeevaVee]

Under appreciated. He is our Mr.Reliable. He has earnt his spot in the team and deserves respect.

Over the last three seasons he has been, good (15/16), Excellent (16/17) and good (17/18)

If that isnt consistent I dont know what is.

Like someone mentioned already the only concern is a quality long term back-up to eventually take his place due to age.

Last season he played almost every game carrying a knock or injury.

Mr Reliable with no contribution though. Fullbacks that contribute to the attack well make such a difference to teams. Look at City, Liverpool, Chelsea, even Palace now look very dangerous when Wan-Bissaka was in the opposition half.
Valencia just doesn't contribute enough.

 

[Johan07]

Mr Reliable with no contribution though. Fullbacks that contribute to the attack well make such a difference to teams. Look at City, Liverpool, Chelsea, even Palace now look very dangerous when Wan-Bissaka was in the opposition half.
Valencia just doesn't contribute enough.

Why are you comparing United to City, Liverpool and Chelsea? And how the fullbacks act in the respective teams? They play completely different systems from us. Its like comparing Lukaku to Aguero. Its an irrelevant comparison because of how different the teams play.

Put Valencia in Citys team instead of Kyle Walker and he will do the same if not even a better job. They are very similar players and there is not much between them skillwise if anything.

Put Kyle Walker under Mourinho and he will be acting like Valencia does.

 

[VeevaVee]

Why are you comparing United to City, Liverpool and Chelsea? And how the fullbacks act in the respective teams? They play completely different systems from us. Its like comparing Lukaku to Aguero. Its an irrelevant comparison because of how different the teams play.

Put Valencia in Citys team instead of Kyle Walker and he will do the same if not even a better job. They are very similar players and there is not much between them skillwise if anything.

Put Kyle Walker under Mourinho and he will be acting like Valencia does.

Valencia's crosses hitting shins constantly isn't down to tactics.
Someone who can cross like Mendy would be incredibly useful to us.

 

[groovyalbert]

Why are you comparing United to City, Liverpool and Chelsea? And how the fullbacks act in the respective teams? They play completely different systems from us. Its like comparing Lukaku to Aguero. Its an irrelevant comparison because of how different the teams play.

Put Valencia in Citys team instead of Kyle Walker and he will do the same if not even a better job. They are very similar players and there is not much between them skillwise if anything.

Put Kyle Walker under Mourinho and he will be acting like Valencia does.

You can also add Spurs to that list, and if you're looking overseas you can add Real Madrid, Juve and PSG. Basically, to be successful in the modern era you need genuine attacking output from your fall-backs. Classical wingers have all but gone, with most teams playing inverted forwards in those positions. We have the inverted wingers without the support in attack from our wingbacks. That's our biggest concern. All our play has to be directed through the middle of the pitch, which is far too easy to defend against without options out wide. It's also why we seriously struggle against high-presses. Add a decent ball-playing centre-half and genuine attacking threat in fallback positions and we'd improve massively over night. If only we had been aware of this at the beginning of the summer transfer window...

 

[MUFC OK]

Valencia's crosses hitting shins constantly isn't down to tactics.
Someone who can cross like Mendy would be incredibly useful to us.

Dalot looks to have a wicked delivery, don't expect he'll do much in his first season though.

 

[Johan07]

Valencia's crosses hitting shins constantly isn't down to tactics.
Someone who can cross like Mendy would be incredibly useful to us.

It actually definately is down to tactics IMO.

United under Mourinho is not looking to play a crossing game from our FBs. Mourinho is trying to exploit the area in front of the penalty area and between the CBs and FBs of the opposition team. When playing against an established defense.

If one sees Valencia or our FBs trying to cross the ball against an established defense its because they have been forced to do so by the pressing of our opponents. Its a last resort. Exactly like Mourinho tries to get the opposition to cross the ball from outside when we are defending. Its the best way to create a transition offensively.

Why? Because crossing a ball against an established defense in todays football is such a low-percentage way of scoring/creating a goal scoring opportunity. What it does constititute is a high-percentage chance to give up possession or even more a turnover/transition.

I will guarantee you that Valencia and our FBs are instructed to if they do need to cross the ball against an established defense they need to hit it low and hard towards the first post. I dont really think Mourinho cares if it clears the first man or not. If it does you could even argue that its better if it does since we will propably retain possession by way of a corner, throw-in or that we recover possession.

This is not rocket science, most teams play like this today if they arent coached by Moyes or Pulis. For apparent reasons.

I just dont get why Valencia keeps getting shit for playing like he is instructed to. Why did he play the most minutes of any United player last year if he isnt? Just saying.

 

[Johan07]

You can also add Spurs to that list, and if you're looking overseas you can add Real Madrid, Juve and PSG. Basically, to be successful in the modern era you need genuine attacking output from your fall-backs. Classical wingers have all but gone, with most teams playing inverted forwards in those positions. We have the inverted wingers without the support in attack from our wingbacks. That's our biggest concern. All our play has to be directed through the middle of the pitch, which is far too easy to defend against without options out wide. It's also why we seriously struggle against high-presses. Add a decent ball-playing centre-half and genuine attacking threat in fallback positions and we'd improve massively over night. If only we had been aware of this at the beginning of the summer transfer window...

I completely agree.

Except I dont think we would play differently with a new "ballplaying "CB and an "attacking FB". I sincerely believe Mourinho thinks its to big of a risk to play like this. And that the way we are playing now is the best way to success. Guess this discussion is like the chicken and the egg; what comes first? The tactics or the players at ones disposal?

IMO its the first. And I dont think Mourinho will change. Ever. Regardless of the players at his disposal. I would be really happy to be proven wrong though. Really would.

 

[Sylar]

There was one point he got the ball, had so much space to run into. Decided not to until the crowd groaned, then ran forward, then lost the ball, and actually walked back. It was sad to watch.

 

[GledTheRed]

I die inside watching Antonio play.

 

[VivaObertan]

He wasn't match fit tonight at all. Ran his heart out for about 70 minutes but was seriously gassing for the final 15-20.

 

[Ludens the Red]

It's becoming painful watching him at right back. Especially as we have no threat from the right of our midfield, we've essentially handicapped the right hand side of our team. People used to say it was Mourinho not letting him go forward but how come Luke Shaw has been doing it since coming into the team this season? How come he makes runs? tries to get forward and tries to put crosses in?
I don't now much about Dalot but when he comes back, he should just be thrown in there.

 

[stepic]

he should have been out of the team 2 seasons ago. the fact he's still our starting RB is mental.

 

[Fracture90]

Same as Matić, don't think he had enough fitness nor recovery for last night's game.

 

[Red_Ramirez]

he should have been out of the team 2 seasons ago. the fact he's still our starting RB is mental.

He was excellent 18 monts ago. Get a grip

 

[Red_Ramirez]

Like others have mentioned already. His lack of pre season and match fitness told at the end.

Full of beans till the the 70 minute mark. Same for Matic

 

[MadDogg]

Started the game well for the first half an hour, slowly deteriorated after that.

 

[TMDaines]

This lad is gonna get a fecking testimonial as club captain. feck me, there’s going to be a few empty seats. Plays with absolute fear.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

Really is atrocious these days. Kills all fluidity in our play.

 

[FootyGirl88]

Dalot will be fit soon ❤

 

[Alabaster Codify7]

I hope Dalot has phased him into squad player status by Xmas.

 

[stepic]

He was excellent 18 monts ago. Get a grip

he really wasn't. the modern fullback is such a critical position and Valencia has never been WC there.

 

[Robbo*]

Ag

he really wasn't. the modern fullback is such a critical position and Valencia has never been WC there.

agreed, he's been horrendous for three years and detracts from team performances by himself somehow. When you watch him live you get a better perspective of how poor he is. I think on TV his all-action nature can disguise his other sins.

 

[stepic]

agreed, he's been horrendous for three years and detracts from team performances by himself somehow. When you watch him live you get a better perspective of how poor he is. I think on TV his all-action nature can disguise his other sins.

it makes it worse given we don't have a proper right winger, so a lot of the width and attack on the right side falls to Valencia, who is so one dimensional it hurts. why every manager fails to see it is beyond me. probably because we keep hiring non-attacking, non-modern managers.

 

[el3mel]

Actually thought he started well but became worse as the game went on.

He should b phased out and replaced but he wasn't a problem last night imo.

 

[Janson]

I think he is still one of our most important players, especially defensively.

 

[haram]

I think he is still one of our most important players, especially defensively.

He is important because the alternative at the moment is Darmian.