Hahahah you what
because I can put a bias to a side and look at a challenge for what it is, I now think every challenge against a United player isn’t a foul.What lunacy is this.
Anthony Taylor
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Hahahah you what
because I can put a bias to a side and look at a challenge for what it is, I now think every challenge against a United player isn’t a foul.What lunacy is this.
What are we even arguing about at this point? I think it probably was just about a red card and it wasn't even Anthony Taylor who made that decision - he gave a yellow.
If it was his bias/attempt to cheat, why wouldn't he have just sent Casemiro off straight away?
For me it's as simple as this - the current crop of referees are very poor, none of them understand the game, they only understand the rules (at best). They are not helped by confusing directives from higher-ups (who also dont understand the game).
If it was his bias/attempt to cheat, why wouldn't he have just sent Casemiro off straight away?
For me it's as simple as this - the current crop of referees are very poor, none of them understand the game, they only understand the rules (at best). They are not helped by confusing directives from higher-ups (who also dont understand the game).
Logic in here will get you nowhere!
Whats the source of this info?
Ok. Wow. Interesting. Nice research.
This whole thing has just made me not that bothered for the rest of the season. How can it be that powers outside of our control can control our fate from here on out? Lets be honest we are slowly being pulled into a top 4 race where we should be in cruise control.
The dodgy pen that Sociedad got at the start of the season which eventually forced us into the playoffs are just another example of why this game has truly lost its way.
I'm sick to death of the officiating, every week (and its not just us) there is a dodgy call or decision. Its crazy.
The dodgy pen that Sociedad got at the start of the season which eventually forced us into the playoffs are just another example of why this game has truly lost its way.
I'm sick to death of the officiating, every week (and its not just us) there is a dodgy call or decision. Its crazy.
You forgot the betis goal that’s another stonewall handball.
I compiled it by going through each fixture he officiated on transfermarkt and putting it together in a spreadsheet.
I agree , the yellow wasn't a clear and obvious error, So why has VAR in this instance intervened? This is the inconsistency that ETH has been going on about, Marrriner fecks up in his game, then truth be told pulls himself out if the shit by making sure he doesn't feck up again in his eyes. PGMOL would have looked at him and put him in the Championship for next week.
The Handball was reviewed by same guy who stated it hit his Chest first?? We've all seen the pics in slow mo etc etc . It's does not, then they say his arm is on floor etc. It's a fecking mess but when it happens to UTD it's fair game all round . Garnacho tackle ffs guys out injured the guy Casimero supposedly nearly snapped his leg he's fine by all reports. Work that one out ..
Agree, Webb apparently instructed officials to use VAR sparingly , so the Yellow as sufficient until VAR, this is when it does not work or needed. Where is the refs Error????
VAR is definitely used sparingly when it comes to reviewing potential United penalties.
Andre Marriner: 'Oh look, Rashford's gone down. Who wants a coffee??'
Andre Marriner: 'Oh look, Rashford's gone down. Who wants a coffee??'
Not helped by Rashford's outrageous dive against Southampton.
However, I do actually agree! It's so inconsistent.
Have you seen the closeups? His foot was clipped by the GK’s knee which tripped him after he clipped his other ankle
VAR has not solved the biggest problem in terms of refereeing, which is inconsistency!
Every referee, whether in charge of the game or watching from the VAR cubicle, will occasionally interpret things differently, and so unless the same referee takes every game and does the VAR as well then, arguments will always follow.
There is also nearly always some bias in the way referees perform, we like to think this is perhaps unintentional, but often statistics will show some refs do tend to favour the home team and i.e. 'home bias' is often quoted, whether its in the past, at such as Old Trafford, Stamford Bridge, or Anfield. Or now as Arsenal are doing well and Man City there are examples you could point to that indicate some kind of bias (albeit unintentional) at The Emirates and Etihad.
VAR by and large has helped decision-making in most cases, although making the existing laws , such as ''offside' by something as tiny as a players toes, etc. look ridiculous. However its not the panacea we were led to believe because its still operated by humans, what they look at, how they look at it, and how they interpret is still not able to give an absolute decision (unless e.g. a ball is totally over a line etc.). Lets face it if it did, we wouldn't need Gary and his crew would we??
For me however, as a United fan, their are two refs Taylor and Mariner who I worry about in terms of bias against United, its completely subjective of course, but on Sunday we had one on the pitch and one in the VAR box
Every referee, whether in charge of the game or watching from the VAR cubicle, will occasionally interpret things differently, and so unless the same referee takes every game and does the VAR as well then, arguments will always follow.
There is also nearly always some bias in the way referees perform, we like to think this is perhaps unintentional, but often statistics will show some refs do tend to favour the home team and i.e. 'home bias' is often quoted, whether its in the past, at such as Old Trafford, Stamford Bridge, or Anfield. Or now as Arsenal are doing well and Man City there are examples you could point to that indicate some kind of bias (albeit unintentional) at The Emirates and Etihad.
VAR by and large has helped decision-making in most cases, although making the existing laws , such as ''offside' by something as tiny as a players toes, etc. look ridiculous. However its not the panacea we were led to believe because its still operated by humans, what they look at, how they look at it, and how they interpret is still not able to give an absolute decision (unless e.g. a ball is totally over a line etc.). Lets face it if it did, we wouldn't need Gary and his crew would we??
For me however, as a United fan, their are two refs Taylor and Mariner who I worry about in terms of bias against United, its completely subjective of course, but on Sunday we had one on the pitch and one in the VAR box
Is the team allowed to walk off and boycott a match in protest when he officiates our next match? Should do it
However shit a referee Taylor is, and probable closet City fan, Andre Marriner is the real culprit here as he is most gameweeks. Abomination of an official.
In a similar vain to the table @RedSky produced I wanted to see how Anthony Taylor compared to his experienced counterparts in the league.
Following a similar criteria:
There's not enough information to draw conclusions but it is Interesting how we are booked more than our opposition for each ref.
Following a similar criteria:
- Data is from Tansfermarkt and pertains to only Premier League matches.
- Only current Premier League Teams are considered.
- Data cut off point as 20 league matches and above.
- Values are rounded to one decimal point (Differential was calculated post rounding which isn't good practice but I wanted to illustrate a rough idea).
- N/A sections don't meet all of the above criteria.
There's not enough information to draw conclusions but it is Interesting how we are booked more than our opposition for each ref.
I haven't in fairness. But it looked like he tripped himself up at best, dive at worst, in real time so I can get why we weren't awarded the penalty.
The blatant handball on the other hand was a fecking shocker of a decision.
Twisted logic.
Casemiro gets the zoom and slowmo to escalate his yellow to red card but VAR had no interest in slowmo and zoom to see if Rashford should have had a penalty.
What are you talking about? How does that relate to the point i made?
That’s exactly where VAR should step in. It didn’t look like he was touched in real time, so ref doesn’t give it. Fair enough so far. VAR then has video evidence that he was clipped, contrary to what the ref on the pitch believes and just says “nah not gonna show it to him! I will however show him that the contact that he saw and gave a yellow card for may have been slightly more than what he thought. “
Problem is not Taylor. Problem is far more widespread.
We have for some strange reason been geting wierd decisions against us for some time now. Not just this year. We need our club to make a statement and put this into the light. We need our manager to bring it up every press conferance. Show cases and start asking questions. Start by asking, how come same sitations as ours only means negative outcome when it comes to our team? Start demanding cams and mics on referees and in VAR room.
All a byproduct of opening up too many judgment calls to VAR. VAR eliminates mistakes in offside calls, fouls in or out of the penalty box, and whether or not a ball stayed in play. For things like fouls and handballs, there were wrong decisions before VAR, and there are still wrong decisions despite VAR, so wtf is the point in that?
That's the conclusion I'm coming to, too.
Previously, we had referees calling things as they saw it on the pitch. Often they got it right, sometimes they got it wrong and a few times they got stuff very badly wrong.
Now, with VAR there to "help" the referee, we have referees who don't call it as they see it because they think that VAR will sort it out. Added to that, we have a deliberately high bar for VAR interventions, so refs don't call things as they see them and then they aren't corrected, despite evidence showing that it was most likely the wrong decision that they took on the pitch. And then we have another layer of subjectivity where one ref, who on Saturday didn't deem studs up a yellow card, suddenly decided that studs on legs being given yellow is an egregious error.
I still feel like video evidence can help teams feel less aggrieved with very poor refereeing decisions, but giving the decision on when to intervene to another ref, and artificially manipulating that referee's decision making by forcing a non-defined "clear and obvious" bar upon them just adds another layer of subjectivity to it.
If I were in charge, I'd remove the referee in the bus and just place a video technician in there. I'd then trial a challenge system where a team's captain or manager can choose to challenge any call where they feel the ref's made a mistake, up to two times per game. Instead of applying the clear and obvious bar, the ref that made the initial call would be the only one to see the replays and would only have to change his mind upon seeing the incident replayed for him. If the referee changes his mind, then you keep the challenge. If a team wants to waste their challenges on a throw-in in the 26th minute and a corner in the 54th minute, well, tough titties if you're out of challenges when the opposition scores a "hand of god" goal against you.
This would also remove the pressure of the ref on the pitch knowing that once he's sent to the screen, everyone watching in the stadium and on the telly knows that the referee in the room has told him he's made a clear and obvious mistake. This obviously puts pressure on the referee to reverse the decision once he's sent to the monitor. If a challenge forces the ref to make a run for the video, then the outcome isn't as nailed on.
This./
People are giving the guy far too much credit, he’s simply a bad referee that’s overwhelmed by officiating his local team.
The time has come for accountability, it would be far easier to stomach if the on pitch & VAR officials had to justify their decisions. They aren’t good enough to manipulate things to the level they’re being accused.
Flash news: We now have VAR in PL.
On the topic of the content from that MEN article,
They can keep Taylor away from united games for the rest of the reason if they want but its not going to change anything.
Issue goes much deeper. The standard of officials is awful, is it any wonder they often get overlooked for the bigger assignments with Fifa & UEFA.
Then we've VAR, same as the refs absolutely no consistency. You'll see the same tackle maybe 2 or 3 times a weekend and 1 VAR might pull it while the others won't
Howard Webb was waffling a few weeks ago about wanting higher standards since he came into the job, if anything the standards have dropped further in recent months
They can keep Taylor away from united games for the rest of the reason if they want but its not going to change anything.
Issue goes much deeper. The standard of officials is awful, is it any wonder they often get overlooked for the bigger assignments with Fifa & UEFA.
Then we've VAR, same as the refs absolutely no consistency. You'll see the same tackle maybe 2 or 3 times a weekend and 1 VAR might pull it while the others won't
Howard Webb was waffling a few weeks ago about wanting higher standards since he came into the job, if anything the standards have dropped further in recent months
Casemiro was a yellow, VAR had a long old look and Mariner fecked it. Rashford’s didn’t look anywhere near a penalty, VAR didn’t have a look - which I’m pretty sure is standard procedure if the ref plays on (clear and obvious).
VAR isn’t always right or always wrong, it’s highly inconsistent. Which is why it’s fecking shit.
Point was this is includes matches before the current manager and Liverpool, a team who probably spends more time in the box, receives penalties from Taylor at a lowe rate
The problem with officiating in the PL is systemic. Why? Hard to say but it may be that the mental pressure is too great for these referees to bear. The intensity on the pitch, the post match reaction, the global pot light on this particular league…it’s on a different from any other league. These people are broken before they even walk on the pitch.
A radical suggestion: allow more women to referee PL matches. Not just assisting the referee on the touch line…actual refereeing. It’s no panacea, but what I see are too many men with massive egos botching the job, match after match after match.
A radical suggestion: allow more women to referee PL matches. Not just assisting the referee on the touch line…actual refereeing. It’s no panacea, but what I see are too many men with massive egos botching the job, match after match after match.
On the same day we had two blatant pens not given to our womens team by a female ref so being a bad ref isn't really gender specific.
That’s just batshit crazy. How can we be amongst the highest bookings and have the highest differential with so many refs? It’s the ones they aren’t giving which are the problem. Bookings/lack of bookings influence games massively. I did some further digging on the Anthony Taylor games :-In a similar vain to the table @RedSky produced I wanted to see how Anthony Taylor compared to his experienced counterparts in the league.
Following a similar criteria:
- Data is from Tansfermarkt and pertains to only Premier League matches.
- Only current Premier League Teams are considered.
- Data cut off point as 20 league matches and above.
- Values are rounded to one decimal point (Differential was calculated post rounding which isn't good practice but I wanted to illustrate a rough idea).
- N/A sections don't meet all of the above criteria.
There's not enough information to draw conclusions but it is Interesting how we are booked more than our opposition for each ref.
The total sample size is44 games
bookings
——————-
bookings for 89
against 50
————————-
Games with most yellows 25
(13 wins 3 draws 9 defeats 52% win rate)
———————————————————-
Games with equal or less yellows 19
(19 games 15 wins 4 defeats. 79% win rate)
Now other factors will come into play also such as opposition etc but these 19 games do include 11 away games. 3 games v city away and 2 games v Chelsea (1 home and 1 away)
It’s an interesting drop off in win % however you look at it.
After thinking about the whole thing, I probably have a bizarre take on this.
I actually feel a little bit for Taylor as he made the correct initial decision for the incident he did see (Casemiro), and received poor support from Marriner on the ones he missed. If I was him I would be furious with Marriner as he’s been hung out to dry by him. Giving him the worst angle on Cas’ tackle when he shouldn’t of intervened as it was not a clear and obvious error, and not reviewing the incidents such as Marcus’ pen, the handball, etc…
Taylor didn’t really do much wrong in the grand scheme of things.
I actually feel a little bit for Taylor as he made the correct initial decision for the incident he did see (Casemiro), and received poor support from Marriner on the ones he missed. If I was him I would be furious with Marriner as he’s been hung out to dry by him. Giving him the worst angle on Cas’ tackle when he shouldn’t of intervened as it was not a clear and obvious error, and not reviewing the incidents such as Marcus’ pen, the handball, etc…
Taylor didn’t really do much wrong in the grand scheme of things.
He’s as bad as the rest of them by not giving us the on field decisions we deserve. I can’t think of the last benefit we got that was overturned by VAR simply because we don’t get those decisions in the first place.
Great post and somewhat concerning. Should find a way to get this to Luckhurst.In a similar vain to the table @RedSky produced I wanted to see how Anthony Taylor compared to his experienced counterparts in the league.
Following a similar criteria:
- Data is from Tansfermarkt and pertains to only Premier League matches.
- Only current Premier League Teams are considered.
- Data cut off point as 20 league matches and above.
- Values are rounded to one decimal point (Differential was calculated post rounding which isn't good practice but I wanted to illustrate a rough idea).
- N/A sections don't meet all of the above criteria.
There's not enough information to draw conclusions but it is Interesting how we are booked more than our opposition for each ref.
Bad refereeing is definitely not gender-specific, or specific to any category of humanity we could ever think of. And I will restate my claim that bringing in more women as referees is no panacea, but at the very least we appear to be removing half the population from ever refereeing a PL match, and if the objective is to employ only the best and brightest as referees we're doing ourselves a disservice by appearing to not allow women to referee PL matches.
If things were going well with refereeing in the PL, you don't fix what aint broken. But it clearly is broken, so a fix of some kind is in order. And FFS it is 2023 now...soon to be 2024!
Refereeing is a demanding job, mentally and physically, but surely no one today argues that women are categorically not up to that job. What I see are too many egomaniacs like Marriner and Taylor hanging on season after season when, at least presumably, there are others -- male and female -- who are able to do that job.
In the name of prudence let's start with allowing women to referee Championship matches to prove their mettle before going to the PL.
When you add up the hundreds of decisions a referee makes in any given match -- including throw-ins, goal kicks and time added -- I suspect you're right. But he did get the handball not called decision wrong. We have to give greater weight to the big decisions than we do relatively trivial decisions such as throw-ins and goal kicks.
But that was again a failure on the Marriner side of things, not so much Taylor.
To be fair it’s not just us who have fallen foul to poor decisions. The amount of awful refereeing and VAR decisions I’ve seen in other games has been horrendous this season.
In a similar vain to the table @RedSky produced I wanted to see how Anthony Taylor compared to his experienced counterparts in the league.
Following a similar criteria:
- Data is from Tansfermarkt and pertains to only Premier League matches.
- Only current Premier League Teams are considered.
- Data cut off point as 20 league matches and above.
- Values are rounded to one decimal point (Differential was calculated post rounding which isn't good practice but I wanted to illustrate a rough idea).
- N/A sections don't meet all of the above criteria.
There's not enough information to draw conclusions but it is Interesting how we are booked more than our opposition for each ref.
I think there's a pretty clear conclusion to draw there with regard to Taylor.
Us being booked more than opposition by a small degree I can live with/compute, since we're usually in the top half of the card table, and it could be down to having a lot of players who commit yellow card fouls quite often or wine at the ref a lot. I mean we've had Fellaini, Shaw, Fernandes, Herrera, Young, Maguire, etc. who all pretty much ask for a booking half the time. It's still an odd stat but it's not anything to be overly suspicious about.
Taylor though, not only is he the only ref to book United players literally twice as often as their opponents, but he's the only ref to book ANY team anywhere near twice as often as their opponents. The only reasonable conclusion to that is that he is biased against a specific team and the only part of that which isn't conclusive is why. Although that's irrelevant as there is no answer to why that wouldn't make him unfit to be a referee that doesn't involve coming up with obvious nonsense.
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