Anthony Martial | Sevilla loan watch

pawanraj said:
No you don't. You trade good, driven players for better, more driven players. And tbh, the difference between players in a title winning team and those in a 6th place team is less technical ability and more mentality.
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There isn't a single conventional belief in management that tells you to aim flip a long term asset for a short term asset unless in a state of desperation or short of choice. We should have moved Martial for a middle to longer term prospect not Perisic. No one is losing sleep over Perisic.
pawanraj said:
What has ANY of our managers in the last decade "built", pray tell?
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The very strawman I addressed is in that very quote so let me reiterate. Ole being shite doesn't vindicate Jose.

pawanraj said:
As much as I am not a fan of Jose - his thought process, at least, was clear. He wanted a culture in the team, of self-motivated and talented players. With Aldeweireld, he was getting an experienced, driven individual that can serve as an example for young players. Ditto with Perisic. He was trying to build a winning culture at the club - the importance of this must not be overlooked, especially in an organization that is otherwise content with top-4, and is prone to coddling its players.

If Jose recognized that Martial might go the Balotelli route of wasting his bags of talent - he is within his rights to move him on. That's the job of the manager. While not 19, Perisic was 26-27 when Jose wanted him - not some old fart. Oh, and we ultimately did stump up 80m for Maguire while denying Jose's request when we could've got him for half that.
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You know damn well it wasn't "half that". The veto price was 60m which was also a fleece from Leicester. Maguire isn't a United CB and Jose was about to blow money. Martial failing also doesn't vindicate Jose who has himself gone on to fail at multiple clubs. If you want to retroactively justify anything from 5 years ago based on today's failure then congratulate the club not listening to him. No wonder Jose's career trajectory since then has closely mirrored Martial's, maybe even worse.

pawanraj said:
That is subjective, isn't it? However, with the benefit of hindsight, chances are high that Perisic would've been more productive over 5 years for us, than Martial has been. So very likely it would've been a good trade.
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It's all subjective. Here's some more subjectivity. Perisic would have done little more. We're not talking about a world class player here. While Martial still had value it shouldn't have been perisic he got swapped for and we were right to part ways with Jose. Just because Martial deserves to be sold doesn't vindicate that Perisic deal.
 
Selling/trading Martial back then would've been impossible as he's said to be Joel Glazer's favourite player and a few times over the years it was reported there's strong belief at OT for Martial to be a top player.
 
redshaw said:
Selling/trading Martial back then would've been impossible as he's said to be Joel Glazer's favourite player and a few times over the years it was reported there's strong belief at OT for Martial to be a top player.
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Pele wasn’t it he referred to him as, fecking Glazers can’t get the simplest of things right.
 
Hughes35 said:
What's a balon d'or clause got to do with anything?
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Nothing. It’s in Harry Maguire’s deal too.

What kind of stupid question was that. Clearly it was an indication of his talent.

Do you even know who Antony Martial was back then?
 
Mainoldo said:
Nothing. It’s in Harry Maguire’s deal too.

What kind of stupid question was that. Clearly it was an indication of his talent.

Do you even know who Antony Martial was back then?
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You seem like quite an angry man.

Adding a clause like that to an 18 year olds contract is just future proofing things..... It's similar to when Barca put buy out clause at 500 Million in to average players contracts.......... If you think the ballon d'or clause was because we genuinely thought he would win it, our scouting is even worse than I imagined and it kind of proves my point.
 
Doesn’t seem to have clicked at Seville.Not sure if they will want to sign him this summer…
 
Hughes35 said:
You seem like quite an angry man.

Adding a clause like that to an 18 year olds contract is just future proofing things..... It's similar to when Barca put buy out clause at 500 Million in to average players contracts.......... If you think the ballon d'or clause was because we genuinely thought he would win it, our scouting is even worse than I imagined and it kind of proves my point.
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Na I just talk with emotion. But I always say it’s never personal no matter how I come across.

Also come on now, that’s not a good example as it’s a law to put a release clause in and it’s not heard of to do what we did.

Antony Martial was one of the brightest young talents in world football at 18 similarly to how people would look at Camavinga now (as an example).
 
Greck said:
There isn't a single conventional belief in management that tells you to aim flip a long term asset for a short term asset unless in a state of desperation or short of choice. We should have moved Martial for a middle to longer term prospect not Perisic. No one is losing sleep over Perisic.
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Perisic was 28 that summer. Hardly over the hill.
 
Real Name said:
Mourinho was right on him. And not only him.
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Mourinho was right about him, Shaw and Rashford. Trouble is - his signings weren't any better. Instead of fixing our problems - he added to them. So yes, he was right and he was also a crap manager.
 
FreakyJim said:
Mourinho was right about him, Shaw and Rashford. Trouble is - his signings weren't any better. Instead of fixing our problems - he added to them. So yes, he was right and he was also a crap manager.
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Did I say he wasnt. I get the feeling you cant say anything about the guy without people jumping on it and pointing out for 100th time he was a crap manager.
 
Nikelesh Reddy said:
Doesn’t seem to have clicked at Seville.Not sure if they will want to sign him this summer…
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They couldn't afford to even if they wanted him, his wages would create massive problems for them..
Best we can hope for is he learns the grass isn't always greener and puts in more professionalism into his footballing development.
 
Nikelesh Reddy said:
Doesn’t seem to have clicked at Seville.Not sure if they will want to sign him this summer…
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Understatement. He won't click anywhere that asks him to put a shift in. Sevilla were never going to sign him anyway, they definitely can't afford his wages and they won't stump up a fee. I wouldn't even be surprised if they sent him back early.

Maybe something good will come from this loan? Maybe he'll realise it's not United's coaching staff or players that are making him look bad. Might be the wakeup he needs, because let's face it, the only place he goes from here is down and his wages get slashed massively.
 
Sevilla were never buying him in a million years, that was clear from the start. It was just a short term financial punt from them in the hope he could push them to their targets, but with the knowledge they wouldn't be committed long term to the economics of it. He's a horrendous player to have on our books. What can you do with a lad on huge money that doesn't seem to want to play football.
 
Greck said:
There isn't a single conventional belief in management that tells you to aim flip a long term asset for a short term asset unless in a state of desperation or short of choice. We should have moved Martial for a middle to longer term prospect not Perisic. No one is losing sleep over Perisic.
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Perisic - had he come - would have come @ 27 years old? Not an old man. About 5 years of playing time is half of most players' playing career in football. It's not a "short-term" for football. Second, we brought Martial in for "potential". He wasn't a ready-article. So the question here is about exchanging a "potential asset" for a "ready player with productive 5 years". It's not a ready long-term asset vs a ready short-term asset that you're making it out to be.

Greck said:
The very strawman I addressed is in that very quote so let me reiterate. Ole being shite doesn't vindicate Jose.
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Not just about Ole. About ALL our managers over the last decade. Nobody has "built" anything. As for vindication - what vindication are we talking about exactly? Nobody is hiding their dislike of Jose's playing style or methods. However, he has been more right than wrong about the non-technical aspects of the game for most players he coached - be it Martial, Pogba, Shaw, Rashford, etc. This is reflected in Rangnick's team selection as well. So I think it is important to be clear what it is that we are crediting Jose for and what we aren't. Ole's failure or even Jose's failures have no bearing on the fact that Jose's idea about Martial's mentality were correct.

Greck said:
You know damn well it wasn't "half that". The veto price was 60m which was also a fleece from Leicester. Maguire isn't a United CB and Jose was about to blow money.
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Depending on which publication you believe - Jose pulled the plug on Maguire because he didn't want the club to spend more than 50m on Maguire. I guess we will never know for sure who had inputs on signing him.

Greck said:
Martial failing also doesn't vindicate Jose who has himself gone on to fail at multiple clubs. If you want to retroactively justify anything from 5 years ago based on today's failure then congratulate the club not listening to him. No wonder Jose's career trajectory since then has closely mirrored Martial's, maybe even worse.
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Again, I think we may be conflating two different things here. My only point is that Jose had identified Martial's mental weaknesses a while ago. That he hasn't had the best time post Utd doesn't invalidate that.

Greck said:
It's all subjective. Here's some more subjectivity. Perisic would have done little more. We're not talking about a world class player here. While Martial still had value it shouldn't have been perisic he got swapped for and we were right to part ways with Jose. Just because Martial deserves to be sold doesn't vindicate that Perisic deal.
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This is subjective - so you have your opinion re Perisic, and I have mine. Let's leave it at that.
 
Greck said:
This is barely a consolation. You trade young players for young players. Shortsightedness like this is why it was so obvious Jose only cared about his short term prospects. Willian, Maguire, Alderweireld, just what exactly was Jose building? Ole being worse doesn't somehow vindicate him.

Plus just because these players have no future at the club doesn't mean we should have had Perisic. Our entire left side was actually really solid. Players like Martial, Rashford and Shaw being shite and expired today doesn't mean we needed Perisic the last 3 to 4 years. We were good, we just missed the window on when to sell them. Same with Cavani. He should have been released but his being shite today doesn't retroactively erase the value we got from him last season.

Basically, moving Martial might not have been a bad idea but his turning shite didn't somehow make Perisic the right asset to flip him for. Not getting Perisic won't be keeping anyone up at night.
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Who said it was a consolation? It's the opposite of that.

Mourinho would have the right player to compliment Lukaku, that's the point. He knew Martial hadn't the minerals.
It's this fascination the board has with looking at players as assets rather than assessing their playing performance that has destroyed the soul of the club.
 
Perisic then went on to have great Euro (or was it WC?) that season. I thought at that time, wow.. what a smack on the face.

But then, I don't know what happened, he ended up on loan at Bayern (pretty useful player as Bayern had Treble season, I think).
 
crossy1686 said:
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You couldn't make it up really. Always somebody else's fault with this player. The sooner we're rid the better, but it's going to be a chore to see the back of him. What a shame it is to think back to that player that burst onto the scene in his first couple of games.
 
USREDEVIL said:
We should apologize for having sent him to Sevilla. At least put a warning sticker on him before: "Warning, will not give a shit."
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No chance. If we are not anywhere close to winning the league title, we will try our darnedest to ensure Sevilla will not either... :devil:
 
ForeverRed1 said:
How we going to sell this guy now?
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We aren't. This was his shot to show what he could do, and he just isn't up for it. Due to Woodward insistence on giving everyone bloated contracts, he's going to have to be a bit player until he is gone.
 
bond19821982 said:
He was the one who wanted to go there. Could have just played here with us. We really needed one more body after the incident with Mason.
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He left before Mason. I think he stays if Greenwood's situation happens early in the window.
 
It's pretty amazing that our players struggle with basic stuff like running ffs.
 
Mourinho didn’t fancy him, Deschamps didn’t fancy him, Rangnick didn’t fancy him and now lopetegui doesn’t fancy him. Four different managers with four distinct styles and he doesn’t fit under any one of them. The sense of entitlement and lack of self awareness is something else with him. Never ever I have seen him fighting for his place. Always sulks and downs tools at the drop of a hat. One of the most passive and laziest player to ever play for our club with no fight and desire in him and he still has a cult following here known as Martial FC. It’s not just the players like him are the problem at this club it’s the fans who adore players like him are the culprits too. Then they moan and talk about standards.
 
I thought he'd fail at Sevilla, but it's gone even worse than I expected. Bloke doesn't enjoy football. Should just take the easy route and go to MLS or China.
 
After this debut goal v Liverpool, it's amazing to think the trajectories of the two clubs. One is challenging for the quadruple, the other is in disarray, with nothing to fight for and trophyless for 5 years.

Martial is just symbolic of our club right now!
 
The state of our club is that our loanees are so shit that they blame everyone else for the situation they put themselves in :lol:

Lucky that ten hag is already bald because he's going to go mental with these whinging losers.
 
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