Anthony Martial and Willian swap?

Status
Not open for further replies.
roonster09 said:
How do you know that? He took Napoli who were 20 plus points behind Juventus to single digit and that too after losing their best player. Like I said, watch or read about the coach instead of just checking honours list. Funnily enough, this is the only defense for Jose fans for everything.
Click to expand...

I know that because he hasn't even won a tiddly winks cup and like Poch, tries to evade the fact that winning domestic cups is irrelevant. Again, skirt the point.

Again bottling argument. Sigh. Frank de Boer, Rodgers, Martinez, Di Matteo is the way to go then, they are all proper winners.
Click to expand...

Rodgers and De Boer won in weak leagues. Concede that isn't the barometer compared to Europe's top leagues. Already said Di Matteo was an outlier. And yes, if Martinez can win a domestic cup, why can't Poch or Sarri? Simple point. They may be better managers than Martinez on account of their career trajectory and squad building abilities, but they don't know how to win.

Let them win something like Tuchel or Jardim and then we can see.

Again how is it 28 years when he was banker in 1999? :lol: This is tiresome, you have no clue on what went on, just use the numbers and spout bs. He got a break very late in his career and he is doing very good job in making full use of it.
Click to expand...

Who's denying he is doing a good job? Just not enough for a top club.

Of course, but thank fully you don't too otherwise you might end up hiring Lippi looking at his honours list in Wiki page.
Click to expand...

I'd say we can atleast sack Lippi quickly as he would accept the offer for peanuts. But with Poch or Sarri, even sacking them might be a tedious affair.:lol:
 
roonster09 said:
Who cares though. He didn't win domestic cup so Martinez > Sarri, at least by @Kapardin logic.

Thats the only way to judge, at least a domestic trophy.
Click to expand...

By that logic, many lower league managers who have worked wonders to get teams promoted can manage top clubs. Sarri is judged for his work with Napoli, not for earning teams promotion early on in his career.
 
The no trophies = not good enough thing is lame and quite embarassing.
If managers are only appointed to big teams based on trophies, then only a handful of managers will just keep swapping the top jobs.
Some managers are just lucky to get jobs where it is easier to win trophies early in their carreer.
This is Sarri's CV:
.
.
Pescara
Arezzo
Avellino
Hellas Verona
Perugia
Alessandria
Sorento
Empoli
Napoli
.
.
Bar Napoli, all of them are teams you shouldn't really expect to win trophies.
Napoli is the only remotely semi-big team he's managed and he took them to a higher level by getting them close enough to even challenge Juve's dominance. There's no evidence to show he won't win the big gigs if appointed to a team with higher resources than Napoli. He might even win trophies at Napoli if given more years, this is just his third season afterall.
Maybe we should just focus on Martial - Willian swap....
 
Kapardin said:
By that logic, many lower league managers who have worked wonders to get teams promoted can manage top clubs. Sarri is judged for his work with Napoli, not for earning teams promotion early on in his career.
Click to expand...

No, Sarri is judged on what he did during his entire career which is taking struggling teams and improving them but also taking a top Serie A team improving them and managing to be the only italian team consistently close to Juventus.
 
JPRouve said:
No, Sarri is judged on what he did during his entire career which is taking struggling teams and improving them but also taking a top Serie A team improving them and managing to be the only italian team consistently close to Juventus.
Click to expand...

Precisely. So he is a good manager who is yet to prove he can be a top manager.

Of course, he may win with Napoli. But as long as he or Poch haven't won anything, They are not risks clubs like United or Chelsea can afford. Winning gives you experience to cope with pressure for one thing.
 
Kapardin said:
I know that because he hasn't even won a tiddly winks cup and like Poch, tries to evade the fact that winning domestic cups is irrelevant. Again, skirt the point.
Click to expand...

So again ignoring the managers who won feck all and started to win when they joined biggest clubs. Logic eh?

Rodgers and De Boer won in weak leagues. Concede that isn't the barometer compared to Europe's top leagues. Already said Di Matteo was an outlier. And yes, if Martinez can win a domestic cup, why can't Poch or Sarri? Simple point. They may be better managers than Martinez on account of their career trajectory and squad building abilities, but they don't know how to win.

Let them win something like Tuchel or Jardim and then we can see.
Click to expand...

:lol: As if any domestic cup will make clubs change their opinion on managers.

So Blanc should be then as he won league titles one of the biggest leagues.

Who's denying he is doing a good job? Just not enough for a top club.
Click to expand...

So finally stopped using "28 years". That's at least an improvement. I have already gave examples of so many coaches who won nothing but started to win when they land big jobs. They land big jobs not based on winning tin pot small cup, it's because management are convinced about their ability.
 
Kapardin said:
Precisely. So he is a good manager who is yet to prove he can be a top manager.

Of course, he may win with Napoli. But as long as he or Poch haven't won anything, They are not risks clubs like United or Chelsea can afford. Winning gives you experience to cope with pressure for one thing.
Click to expand...

That's not how things work and it has already been explained to you. When you are competing with Juventus, you are unlikely to win anything, they are richer and already have far more than Napoli can dream about. Just a reminder, Juventus are one of the 100 points teams.
 
Kapardin said:
By that logic, many lower league managers who have worked wonders to get teams promoted can manage top clubs. Sarri is judged for his work with Napoli, not for earning teams promotion early on in his career.
Click to expand...

He is judged on his entire career which shows how he improves his team. When he took bigger club than the previous one, he continued his good work. Same at Napoli, he took them from 5th and made then one of the best in Italy. Their points accumulation since he took over shows how good a job he has done.

If you check Jose's career, it's the same. He didn't land Porto job because he was good translator or arranged the cones better than other coaches, it's because of his performance in smaller club and how he improved their league performance. He won feck all but still got the second or third biggest job in Portugal.
 
I think it'd be a mistake for the club.

I like Willian, but he should be signed outright if Jose wants him. Rashford out on loan, Martial, Sanchez and Willian playing the majority of games up front.
 
roonster09 said:
So again ignoring the managers who won feck all and started to win when they joined biggest clubs. Logic eh?
Click to expand...

Ignored nothing. Answered the shit on Allegri earlier as well. You simply haven't answered the fact why Poch cannot win an FA Cup yet.


:lol: As if any domestic cup will make clubs change their opinion on managers.

So Blanc should be then as he won league titles one of the biggest leagues.
Click to expand...

Erm, as I said before, Poch and Sarri are good at building teams. If they won something with their built teams, that makes them eligible for a club like Chelsea or United. PSG on the other hand is a different case obviously than Napoli or Spurs. Already said that Poch, Sarri or the kitman can win leagues with them.

Bayern, PSG, etc are jobs where even third tier managers can win leagues. However, the point I am making is clubs in the position of ourselves cannot give these managers jobs and expect them to win things.

So finally stopped using "28 years". That's at least an improvement. I have already gave examples of so many coaches who won nothing but started to win when they land big jobs. They land big jobs not based on winning tin pot small cup, it's because management are convinced about their ability.
Click to expand...

Doesn't matter when you continue to ignore the simple argument - neither of them have proven they are suited for a club bigger than where they are at. Unless its' Bayern or PSG where they can win leagues, but even there the expectation now is CL title, which they likely won't win.

roonster09 said:
He is judged on his entire career which shows how he improves his team. When he took bigger club than the previous one, he continued his good work. Same at Napoli, he took them from 5th and made then one of the best in Italy. Their points accumulation since he took over shows how good a job he has done.
Click to expand...

Yes, nobody denies he is a good coach. But now that he has a good squad at his disposal, let him win something with said squad and then we can talk.

He did all the hard work and was even a point or so ahead of Juve to bottle it. Similarly, was it so hard for Poch to beat us in the FA Cup or progress against Genk (or Gent, don't remember).

If you check Jose's career, it's the same. He didn't land Porto job because he was good translator or arranged the cones better than other coaches, it's because of his performance in smaller club and how he improved their league performance. He won feck all but still got the second or third biggest job in Portugal.
Click to expand...

True. Jose was not considered for the Chelsea or other jobs quickly (let's say Chelsea became a big club only in 2004, so I am saying "other jobs" as well). He had to win something at Porto before that, in a weaker league.
 
JPRouve said:
That's not how things work and it has already been explained to you. When you are competing with Juventus, you are unlikely to win anything, they are richer and already have far more than Napoli can dream about. Just a reminder, Juventus are one of the 100 points teams.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Juventus are more powerful than any club and won double 3 years in a row and will win it for the 4th time in 4 years (if they beat Milan today) and somehow this guy think Sarri is a bottler as he didn't win any trophy.
 
Kapardin said:
Ignored nothing. Answered the shit on Allegri earlier as well. You simply haven't answered the fact why Poch cannot win an FA Cup yet.

Erm, as I said before, Poch and Sarri are good at building teams. If they won something with their built teams, that makes them eligible for a club like Chelsea or United. PSG on the other hand is a different case obviously than Napoli or Spurs. Already said that Poch, Sarri or the kitman can win leagues with them.

Bayern, PSG, etc are jobs where even third tier managers can win leagues. However, the point I am making is clubs in the position of ourselves cannot give these managers jobs and expect them to win things.

Doesn't matter when you continue to ignore the simple argument - neither of them have proven they are suited for a club bigger than where they are at. Unless its' Bayern or PSG where they can win leagues, but even there the expectation now is CL title, which they likely won't win.
Click to expand...

Meh I'm done. You don't understand why a coach can't win when there are more powerful teams and you still can't see how good a coach is because honours list is empty in Wiki page.
 
roonster09 said:
Meh I'm done. You don't understand why a coach can't win when there are more powerful teams and you still can't see how good a coach is because honours list is empty in Wiki page.
Click to expand...

Neither can you differentiate true winners and nearly men and only go by points math. Sarri and Poch are good coaches, that is something I didn't deny. Leave it at that.
 
Kapardin said:
Neither can you differentiate true winners and nearly men and only go by points math. Sarri and Poch are good coaches, that is something I didn't deny. Leave it at that.
Click to expand...

:lol:
 
Kapardin said:
Green smiley is just like the "" you used for Jose.;)
Click to expand...

True winner, so if Sarri becomes Chelsea manager and wins FA cup or league cup, will he become true winner or just winner?
 
roonster09 said:
True winner, so if Sarri becomes Chelsea manager and wins FA cup or league cup, will he become true winner or just winner?
Click to expand...

If he gets the Top 4 with Chelsea and wins the league and FA Cup, of course he is a winner and should be given the chance to mount a challenge for PL or CL.

Your fixation on Sarri is bordering on obsession. Ignoring again the fact that I said they do a good job building teams, and need to prove they can win something on top of building teams (a quality they possess) to give them a chance for the big prizes. Not just win the league cup and get relegated.
 
Kapardin said:
If he gets the Top 4 with Chelsea and wins the league and FA Cup, of course he is a winner and should be given the chance to mount a challenge for PL or CL.

Your fixation on Sarri is bordering on obsession. Ignoring again the fact that I said they do a good job building teams, and need to prove they can win something on top of building teams (a quality they possess) to give them a chance for the big prizes. Not just win the league cup and get relegated.
Click to expand...

Yeah, nothing to do with Jose fans being defensive when someone praises other coach or say some coach who won nothing is good enough candidate for top club. I haven't seen any other fans apart form Jose fans who are so much obsessed with honours list in Wiki page when it comes to rating coaches.

Winning on top of building teams? Do you have any idea about Serie A and how strong Juventus is? In the last 4 years, only Bayern, Madrid and Barca have stopped them, they have won everything there is to win. This is what Sarri is up against, with much inferior team and that team that lost their best player and league's best striker to Juventus.

Btw I was laughing at "True winner". The fact that they are winners is the reason why they are managing some of the biggest clubs. Winning tin pot trophy won't certify anything, they have passed all the hurdles to reach that stage, that itself says they are true winners.
 
RedNed77 said:
Didn't Bayern pick up Robben & Ribery at similar points in their careers? They've absolutely smashed it for them for years beyond what most would have thought.
Click to expand...

No they didn't, however the second point would be name other top class wide players who are performing at 33+ you'll likely find the number isn't very high
 
roonster09 said:
Yeah, nothing to do with Jose fans being defensive when someone praises other coach or say some coach who won nothing is good enough candidate for top club. I haven't seen any other fans apart form Jose fans who are so much obsessed with honours list in Wiki page when it comes to rating coaches.
Click to expand...

And where have I said I am a Jose fan. Last thing I remember, I said I was on the fence regarding Jose's upcoming 3rd season.

If someone says Jose, a genuine trophy winning manager is better than Sarri, he is a Jose fan? Bizarre. And that was in response to you ignoring his work with Porto, vs Barca with Inter and again vs Barca with Real.

Winning on top of building teams? Do you have any idea about Serie A and how strong Juventus is? In the last 4 years, only Bayern, Madrid and Barca have stopped them, they have won everything there is to win. This is what Sarri is up against, with much inferior team and that team that lost their best player and league's best striker to Juventus.
Click to expand...

True. Credit to Sarri for building a team like Spurs that can "put the pressure on". Now, he was a point or two ahead of this Juventus side. Is it that hard to win the last few games and not bottle to Juve? Ok, forget the league. Not that hard to win a Coppa with that Napoli squad is it?

So much underestimation of the mentality it takes to win. Juve are a better squad but when you have done 90% of the work, then you can finish the 10%.

Of course, it is still a tall order which is why I said wait and see next season if he atleast wins a domestic cup while keeping Napoli up there in the league.

Btw I was laughing at "True winner". The fact that they are winners is the reason why they are managing some of the biggest clubs. Winning tin pot trophy won't certify anything, they have passed all the hurdles to reach that stage, that itself says they are true winners.
Click to expand...

Even Allardyce is a winner for keeping Sunderland up that season. Yes, managers are winners in different ways. But at Poch's or Sarri's level, winning requires a trophy to show in their CV for being truly considered among the elite.
 
Kapardin said:
And where have I said I am a Jose fan. Last thing I remember, I said I was on the fence regarding Jose's upcoming 3rd season.

If someone says Jose, a genuine trophy winning manager is better than Sarri, he is a Jose fan? Bizarre. And that was in response to you ignoring his work with Porto, vs Barca with Inter and again vs Barca with Real.



True. Credit to Sarri for building a team like Spurs that can "put the pressure on". Now, he was a point or two ahead of this Juventus side. Is it that hard to win the last few games and not bottle to Juve? Ok, forget the league. Not that hard to win a Coppa with that Napoli squad is it?

So much underestimation of the mentality it takes to win. Juve are a better squad but when you have done 90% of the work, then you can finish the 10%.

Of course, it is still a tall order which is why I said wait and see next season if he atleast wins a domestic cup while keeping Napoli up there in the league.



Even Allardyce is a winner for keeping Sunderland up that season. Yes, managers are winners in different ways. But at Poch's or Sarri's level, winning requires a trophy to show in their CV for being truly considered among the elite.
Click to expand...

Oh dear, everything is flying way over your head.

Good day, cheers.
 
Perhaps Mourinho want to return Chelsea some long due favour after messing them up big time with Salah and De Bruyne transfer?
 
as much as i like Willian as a player i dont want to lose a player like Martial for him, would however add more balance to the squad, again another 29 year old who would need replaced in a couple of seasons or we will be left with when Jose goes.
 
If he does this then i'm done with Mourinho.

Short sighted as feck, just wants another soldier that does everything he wants without complaint.

Martial at 1 of our rivals would fecking suck balls.
 
Willian himself would be a great addition but in a same sense as Matic, great player, who already reached his peak and will need replacing soon but maybe Jose could make him into a RB a lá Valencia:-)
 
If this happens i can see Martial taking Chelsea's striker position and pushing on becoming one of premier leagues best strikers, i dont for the life of me undertsand why hes only gotten one start at striker for us this season against Everton, we also played one of our most pleasing games on the eye that day too.
 
Greck said:
On the contrary you're the one being overly defensive for Jose as usual, hence why the point has flown over your head. The point here is we should strike a balance between veterans and younger players because we can't afford to replace so many key players within a short period. The market is too crazy for that.
Click to expand...

The point is there is a balance. That’s why he has signed Lukaku, Pogba, Bailly and Lindelof already. Maybe you are too negative to see that. How is that what happened at Inter?
 
I like Willian. I'd be happy to sign him, but never in a straight swap for Martial. I'd take Willian and cash for Martial but it would take quite a bit. Actually I'd rather sell him out of the league and buy an outright RW (Willian or otherwise). I'd be happier with Willian in the squad because we are under pressure to succeed now and Martial is not ready to be a winner. And with the lack of hunger and drive he shows, he may never be ready even though he is talented.
 
Devil may care said:
The one where he's already scored as many PL goals in half as many games as Willian, he's a better dribbler, a better passer and has the ability to produce some magic. Willian is a solid winger who works very hard, kinda like Lingard, I know you will probably scoff at the comparison as well but this season Lingard has been the better player, has produced more and unlike Willian wont be 30 when the season starts, Mourinho's love of Lingard over Rashford and Martial is down to him having the same kind of dog soldier mentality and work ethic as Willian, where as Martial and Rashford have looked fed up with their lot at times. I'm not going to get into another Mourinho debate but if he must get rid of Martial I'd like to see us aim higher, and more long term than a run of the mill wide man like Willian who'll be 30 and has never even scored double figures in the PL.
Click to expand...

They are not even close. Martial and Lingard will stay on the bench in any team where there is Willian. Willian will give you heart, soul, pace, the right balance of attacking intent and defensive initiative, plus he dribbles well, packs a shot, moves brilliantly off the ball, and is the ultimate team player.
I understand the potential and age bits but I am talking about right now. Willian is a superior footballer particularly from a mental perspective which is one area many modern day fans underrate.

Nevertheless, I won't support the swap if it excludes money. I will let Martial go if Willian comes with cash.
 
GM K said:
They are not even close. Martial and Lingard will stay on the bench in any team where there is Willian. Willian will give you heart, soul, pace, the right balance of attacking intent and defensive initiative, plus he dribbles well, packs a shot, moves brilliantly off the ball, and is the ultimate team player.
I understand the potential and age bits but I am talking about right now. Willian is a superior footballer particularly from a mental perspective which is one area many modern day fans underrate.

Nevertheless, I won't support the swap if it excludes money. I will let Martial go if Willian comes with cash.
Click to expand...

I disagree completely, Willian has very little output, being a dog soldier when you're a winger is not good enough, he's a solid winger but nothing more, there is a reason Conte has phased him out, for all the corny warrior stuff he's just not that productive, which is the core job of an attacker. I wouldn't support any deal that sees Martial go period, but certainly not to another PL club as he'll thrive under a progressive manager like a Sarri or Luis Enrique, and I don't support bringing in a 30 year old workhorse who barely scores or creates, this side is so devoid of flair and invention, Willian would be another nail in that particular coffin..
 
Devil may care said:
I disagree completely, Willian has very little output, being a dog soldier when you're a winger is not good enough, he's a solid winger but nothing more, there is a reason Conte has phased him out, for all the corny warrior stuff he's just not that productive, which is the core job of an attacker. I wouldn't support any deal that sees Martial go period, but certainly not to another PL club as he'll thrive under a progressive manager like a Sarri or Luis Enrique, and I don't support bringing in a 30 year old workhorse who barely scores or creates, this side is so devoid of flair and invention, Willian would be another nail in that particular coffin..
Click to expand...
Will probably take over from Valencia as an useless RB in a year or so especially if we end up buying a weaker RB.
 
GM K said:
They are not even close. Martial and Lingard will stay on the bench in any team where there is Willian. Willian will give you heart, soul, pace, the right balance of attacking intent and defensive initiative, plus he dribbles well, packs a shot, moves brilliantly off the ball, and is the ultimate team player.
I understand the potential and age bits but I am talking about right now. Willian is a superior footballer particularly from a mental perspective which is one area many modern day fans underrate.

Nevertheless, I won't support the swap if it excludes money. I will let Martial go if Willian comes with cash.
Click to expand...
So why aren't our highly paid coaches not helping talents like Martial to improve that "mental perspective"? What's the point of coaches, academy etc if you want ready made talents all the time? Why are similar and previously inconsistent young talents like Sterling tearing up the league under better coaches?
 
redIndianDevil said:
So why aren't our highly paid coaches not helping talents like Martial to improve that "mental perspective"? What's the point of coaches, academy etc if you want ready made talents all the time? Why are similar and previously inconsistent young talents like Sterling tearing up the league under better coaches?
Click to expand...

Sterling is miles ahead of Martial in ability though. I agree with you that there were some mental issues with him leaving Liverpool but that was more like "give me what I want, I deserve it" which is attitude players need. Martial is like "lemme call my cousin so he can leak what I want"
 
Status
Not open for further replies.