Another article about our failing youth set up....

pacifictheme

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http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2015/oct/24/manchester-city-united-youth-policy

Not really sure how much i can post, but the gist is about how great City's set up is compared to ours. Its a real worry as far as i'm concerned.

Our two most successful periods came from teams with strong English, local cores. Players who really cared. The amount of benfits you get from youth team players breaking through can't be valued financially, but the way we've let City take the initiative is very worrying.
 
nokillingmoths said:
http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2015/oct/24/manchester-city-united-youth-policy

Not really sure how much i can post, but the gist is about how great City's set up is compared to ours. Its a real worry as far as i'm concerned.

Our two most successful periods came from teams with strong English, local cores. Players who really cared. The amount of benfits you get from youth team players breaking through can't be valued financially, but the way we've let City take the initiative is very worrying.
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It will be when I start seeing the evidence on the pitch, who is there in their current set up that has come through this famed academy?

There is no doubt its annoying but what can United do? We are competing not against City, but against the Abu Dhabi United Group one of the richest setups in the world, hardly surprising they are building great facilities etc, it's just what money buys you.

I'd love to know what sort of underhand tactics are been played out with the recruitment of some of these youth players as well,.
 
C'est Moi Cantona said:
It will be when I start seeing the evidence on the pitch, who is there in their current set up that has come through this famed academy?

There is no doubt its annoying but what can United do? We are competing not against City, but against the Abu Dhabi United Group one of the richest setups in the world, hardly surprising they are building great facilities etc, it's just what money buys you.

I'd love to know what sort of underhand tactics are been played out with the recruitment of some of these youth players as well,.
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Evidence on the pitch takes time. Surely we don't want to wait till the problem becomes that evident before acknowledging it?

I don't see money as an excuse here. We have plenty of our own. Looks like a case where we have ignored the youth setup for shorter goals.

Regarding the last bit, I heard it's about City giving the families a home, money etc, giving the kids high quality education etc. Nothing illegal. I think our intended complain was about playing them in youth matches as they would then aggressively start pursuing our kids that did well.
 
It was always going to be many years before City's first team will start reaping the rewards from the huge investment in their youth setup, but when you read the article in full, it does paint a very bleak picture for United.
The facilities are just world class - there is no other way of describing it.
Their youth teams are dominating at every level, many sides to the tune of double digit goals against other teams.
The biggest embarrassment I found reading the article is the amount of United players that have their own boys playing and training for City's youth set up. That alone should tell you everything you need about the quality of the set up.
 
I don't think our youth set up is as bad as suggested. But clearly, it's not as good as it could be. We desperately need a Director of Football. It's too much to expect the manager to implement all these things whilst trying to win with the first team.
Personally, after LVG retires, I would employ him on a temporary basis to restructure our setup. Think he would do a great job with that, whilst the new manager works exclusively with the first team in the first instance.
Then in the meantime, the club should look for a permanent appointment for the role to continue the process.
 
Varun said:
Evidence on the pitch takes time. Surely we don't want to wait till the problem becomes that evident before acknowledging it?

I don't see money as an excuse here. We have plenty of our own. Looks like a case where we have ignored the youth setup for shorter goals.

Regarding the last bit, I heard it's about City giving the families a home, money etc, giving the kids high quality education etc. Nothing illegal. I think our intended complain was about playing them in youth matches as they would then aggressively start pursuing our kids that did well.
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I have seen no evidence on the pitch at all, they raved about that Lopes guy for ages then off he goes last summer, Chelsea always look to have a great youth team but no one ever comes out of it, it's all about giving them a proper chance, and City will need to start doing that soon or it'll put players off going even to their futuristic setup.

Just look at Southampton they are a mid ranking club on the South coast, yet have brought through so many decent/top players in the last decade because they gave them a chance, if City replicate their success they'll be doing very well, but I just don't see it myself because its hard to introduce youth players into a team that has to win all the time.

Of course money comes into it, City basically had a blank cheque book to build this set up, not from their revenue but from a third part source, no other club can do this in such a short period of time.
 
Truth be told I think the future is going to buying players a little further down the line development wise, rather than promoting them from the reserves and watching them make all their mistakes in a United shirt whilst they're learning their trade. The money in the game nowadays mean the stake is too high to give players the inertia to grow whilst costing the team points. We've already seen Januzaj packed off to improve his decision making and who knows if he'll return. Hell we've even seen with Memphis how brutal the league can be if you don't hit the ground running - you'll soon be warming the bench.

I can see 20-25 Jones, Martial, Smalling, Memphis, Shaw, Rooney etc for every one youth player that becomes a valuable first team regular.

This is why I don't see a problem with the academy; we have the finances to use almost every other club in the world as our feeder clubs - why have one great academy when we essentially have hundreds?

City's academy is more likely going to produce a host of decent-good players who'll play for lower PL teams at best as they'll never get the chance to cost City points.
 
finneh said:
Truth be told I think the future is going to buying players a little further down the line development wise, rather than promoting them from the reserves and watching them make all their mistakes in a United shirt whilst they're learning their trade. The money in the game nowadays mean the stake is too high to give players the inertia to grow whilst costing the team points. We've already seen Januzaj packed off to improve his decision making and who knows if he'll return. Hell we've even seen with Memphis how brutal the league can be if you don't hit the ground running - you'll soon be warming the bench.

I can see 20-25 Jones, Martial, Smalling, Memphis, Shaw, Rooney etc for every one youth player that becomes a valuable first team regular.

This is why I don't see a problem with the academy; we have the finances to use almost every other club in the world as our feeder clubs - why have one great academy when we essentially have hundreds?

City's academy is more likely going to produce a host of decent-good players who'll play for lower PL teams at best as they'll never get the chance to cost City points.
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I agree with this - and also its down to City (and Chelsea), why we had to change our approach in the first place. They were the ones throwing money at peak age players, which meant that to compete, the top clubs then had to adopt a model of spending for success rather than producing their own youth. If it wasn't for them ruing football this situation wouldn't have happened in the first place.

Their youth set-up is nothing but a PR ploy from the Sheik
 
It's negligence of the highest order that we still haven't replaced Brian McClair or appointed to oversee youth setup. I don't care about City, but basic things like this plus the fact that we've failed to properly recruit in this department makes me feel that the gist of the article is true.
 
It's what unlimited money buys you. At no point do City need to care about how much they're spending on youth wages and facilities versus what they'll actually get out of them. For United, it's always going to be a cost-benefit analysis. And if City drive up the costs through competition too high, we'll have to look elsewhere for our players. Developing academy players is supposed to cost less than buying ready-made ones, it's why clubs bother in the first place.
 
Why we need a thread about an article that basically recycle information we all have discussed on here months ago?It's getting boring.
 
The club has been neglecting the youth academy long before City burst into scene. We haven't produced a home grown world class player (ie from age 13 up to the top) since the class of 92. It doesn't help the fact that we're using the academy as a way to give our former players a job rather than employ the very best.
 
Varun said:
Regarding the last bit, I heard it's about City giving the families a home, money etc, giving the kids high quality education etc. Nothing illegal. I think our intended complain was about playing them in youth matches as they would then aggressively start pursuing our kids that did well.
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I'm not a laywer so I wouldn't decide on it being illegal or not I'm sure the rule didn't allow that.Other clubs including us also do that for their best kids (not as young as City did and not to poach kids from other English academies though).Basically there's a way to circumvent being caught out.
 
Not read the article but got first hand experience in this area.

The facilities and overall package City offer to youth players is not matched anywhere in the country. The facility is the best in the world, simple as that. It makes St. Georges Park look like my back garden!! They also offer the family of the kids a house and secure education.

When I used to coach at Utd the academy coaching program hadn't changed in a long time and was extremely dated and at City this is not the case at all. Coaching at United is very much an image thing for a lot of the staff I have met, City staff actually care & want to succeed rather than wanting to just 'be there' - I know several ex United coaches (fans too) who have jumped ship due to the culture at United.

The overall environment at City is more attractive to the player but also is without doubt the better environment to develop a player.

I know where I'd advise any player to go if I had to.
 
There are more ex Manchester United youth players in the whole footballing league's than any other club in the top flight. We consistently pump out high quality youngsters, most of which are not up to the very high standards of Manchester United football club, but are more than good enough to play in any one of the leagues in England.

This argument that City are street's ahead has absolutely no basis at all.
 
DeafMUFC said:
Not read the article but got first hand experience in this area.

The facilities and overall package City offer to youth players is not matched anywhere in the country. The facility is the best in the world, simple as that. It makes St. Georges Park look like my back garden!! They also offer the family of the kids a house and secure education.

When I used to coach at Utd the academy coaching program hadn't changed in a long time and was extremely dated and at City this is not the case at all. Coaching at United is very much an image thing for a lot of the staff I have met, City staff actually care & want to succeed rather than wanting to just 'be there' - I know several ex United coaches (fans too) who have jumped ship due to the culture at United.

The overall environment at City is more attractive to the player but also is without doubt the better environment to develop a player.

I know where I'd advise any player to go if I had to.
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this
 
Sad truth is the fans don't care about this, everyone thinks the game has changed and you have to buy 1.5bn worth of players like city have to compete.

Loads of people have said on here that class of 92 and barcelona's team were flukes, City certainly don't think so and we'll probably pay the price for that shakey thought process in years to come
 
crossy1686 said:
There are more ex Manchester United youth players in the whole footballing league's than any other club in the top flight. We consistently pump out high quality youngsters, most of which are not up to the very high standards of Manchester United football club, but are more than good enough to play in any one of the leagues in England.

This argument that City are street's ahead has absolutely no basis at all.
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I agree, we recoup some or all of the investment in these kids by selling them on. A lot of them will go on to have good careers in football somewhere, just not for us. There will be the odd one who will be good enough for us. That is how most of the big teams academies work, not just ours. It will be interesting once next seasons TV money kicks in how many of the clubs who give kids a chance are suddenly buying in the ready made article.
 
To say it doesn't matter and we can just throw money at buying players is just wrong.
The Class of 92 were all pretty much local lads who came through our academy, and without them, who's to say what success or longevity Fergie would have had. The Class of 92 (a bunch of local lads) will never happen again at United whilst City have this current youth setup and it goes un-challenged.
I think it's very short sighted by United fans to dismiss this huge step City have taken. If you live in Manchester, then you would have probably seen the set up and it looks so impressive. Scarily impressive for a youth setup - Some PL and Championship clubs would be envious for their first team.
 
It's so f'ing stupid. 10-12-14 yrs old are almost always dependant on being physically advanced. So, if you are deemed good/best at that age its almost always due to you being physically dominant. That being said, that has absolutely nothing to do with if you are being better in 10 years.if one should be judged on youth it should always be 16+. Fosu Mensah,Goss etc are not "behind" Citys equivalent
 
We've always based our traditions on bringing through our own and that's what we continue to do, albeit at a slower rate nowadays, as we have to buy ready made first team players to challenge for honours.

I'm sure this is a matter which will get sorted in the near future, LvG and Woody will have sat down and spoke about it. Iirc was it RvN that said, we'd see what LvG has truly done with the club once he's left? I think the youth set up will be one of those things.

Also, we all know kids want to go to the club who's winning PL, has the greatest stars and who will be coached by great ex players. Well, what if Giggs gets the managers job, brings in the likes of G Neville, Scholes, Butt etc, then we'll have the likes of Carrick and Schweinsteiger hanging up their boots, we could offer them coaching roles too and hopefully Rio.
 
Oh, btw. Mcnair,Wilson,Pereira,Goss are all closer to the first team than any City youth
 
pascell said:
We've always based our traditions on bringing through our own and that's what we continue to do, albeit at a slower rate nowadays, as we have to buy ready made first team players to challenge for honours.

I'm sure this is a matter which will get sorted in the near future, LvG and Woody will have sat down and spoke about it. Iirc was it RvN that said, we'd see what LvG has truly done with the club once he's left? I think the youth set up will be one of those things.

Also, we all know kids want to go to the club who's winning PL, has the greatest stars and who will be coached by great ex players. Well, what if Giggs gets the managers job, brings in the likes of G Neville, Scholes, Butt etc, then we'll have the likes of Carrick and Schweinsteiger hanging up their boots, we could offer them coaching roles too and hopefully Rio.
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I agree with you that LVG and Woody would have this on the agenda. The problem is I don't believe LVG has sufficient time to implement things because of the pressure with getting results for the first team - hence my earlier suggestion that Louis stay on temporarily after his contract has ended, and implement a thorough restructure of our system.

Where I disagree, is having C092 in charge of anything like that. They can come in now and then for a visit, but they are too influenced by the old ways, and we need someone objective and forward thinking to be in charge. The trick is to always stay ahead of the competition, and you cannot do that with people who are inflexible and set in their ways. Moreover, they would be loathe to change anything for fear of offending SAF who will not want any acknowledgement of the fact that he may have let things slip a bit.
 
Happytom82 said:
It's so f'ing stupid. 10-12-14 yrs old are almost always dependant on being physically advanced. So, if you are deemed good/best at that age its almost always due to you being physically dominant. That being said, that has absolutely nothing to do with if you are being better in 10 years.if one should be judged on youth it should always be 16+. Fosu Mensah,Goss etc are not "behind" Citys equivalent
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This isnt true anymore and it all depends on those doing the selecting and what guidelines they are given. High end coaching of young kids recognises that kids develop at different rates, not just physically but also maturity and emotionally. Also what is recognised is the effect growth spurts have on physical, emotional and maturity levels.
 
Bring a director of football.
 
Stack said:
This isnt true anymore
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Please, then tell me why Serbia, Mali and Senegal were three of four semi-finalists in thisyears fifa u-20 world cup. Is it because they will be a force to be reckoned with in the coming years?. And that is u-20. u17 is even more telling with Sweden, Nigeria and Mexico as the top three teams in the last world cup. So it's not true anymore. Yeah.
 
Happytom82 said:
Please, then tell me why Serbia, Mali and Senegal were three of four semi-finalists in thisyears fifa u-20 world cup. Is it because they will be a force to be reckoned with in the coming years?. And that is u-20. u17 is even more telling with Sweden, Nigeria and Mexico as the top three teams in the last world cup. So it's not true anymore. Yeah.
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For Mali the young players were pretty good technically particularly Adama Traoré.
 
JPRouve said:
For Mali the young players were pretty good technically particularly Adama Traoré.
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Yeah, but Adama Traore does not make my point invalid. Mali will never,ever be a top 8 team even in the world cup. But in the youth wc they can, why is that? That has absolutely nothing to do with Mali having state-of-the-art youth facilities. It has to do with physicality(for a large part).
 
I'd rather have the image of being the finishing club of world class talent than being the producer of
great talent.
All this nonsense about failing to produce when we have ridiculous young players in Shaw / Martial / Pereira / Adnan/ De Gea.
Look at the best English players around. Which would we sign for our first 11? Stones? Who else?
Out first 11 is one of the youngest first 11 in the league.
 
Happytom82 said:
Yeah, but Adama Traore does not make my point invalid. Mali will never,ever be a top 8 team even in the world cup. But in the youth wc they can, why is that? That has absolutely nothing to do with Mali having state-of-the-art youth facilities. It has to do with physicality(for a large part).
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At that age, one special player makes enough difference, there is no conclusions to make from the results.
 
cyberman said:
I'd rather have the image of being the finishing club of world class talent than being the producer of
great talent.
All this nonsense about failing to produce when we have ridiculous young players in Shaw / Martial / Pereira / Adnan/ De Gea.
Look at the best English players around. Which would we sign for our first 11? Stones? Who else?
Out first 11 is one of the youngest first 11 in the league.
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I would prefer to see us develop a couple of world class players and a bunch of solid starters or squad players. That will allow us to spend our money more efficiently. A good Academy is good for the continuity and the finances of a football club.
 
crossy1686 said:
There are more ex Manchester United youth players in the whole footballing league's than any other club in the top flight. We consistently pump out high quality youngsters, most of which are not up to the very high standards of Manchester United football club, but are more than good enough to play in any one of the leagues in England.

This argument that City are street's ahead has absolutely no basis at all.
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This.

We still make plenty of decent young footballers, it's just been a long time since our academy reared golden generation.
 
JPRouve said:
I would prefer to see us develop a couple of world class players and a bunch of solid starters or squad players. That will allow us to spend our money more efficiently. A good Academy is good for the continuity and the finances of a football club.
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This. To see 3 or 4 academy grads in the first team every week and also contributing would be great.
 
And btw, the germans commented on both Mali and Nigeria to be extremely physically in their matches against them. So there's that.
 
JPRouve said:
I would prefer to see us develop a couple of world class players and a bunch of solid starters or squad players. That will allow us to spend our money more efficiently. A good Academy is good for the continuity and the finances of a football club.
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Isn't that what we do? The future of youth football isn't a Welbeck coming through all age groups, it's signing Pogba and Pique at 15 and developing them within the ethos the club
Look at Madrid / Bayern / Barca. How many youth products are presently in their starting 11? You have Messi and Iniesta but they came through a decade ago. Same goes for Lahm. Madrid have nobody.
Muller?
Again all this English talent were missig out in. What English international would get into our side? Where are these player we're missing out on that have gone on to have fantastic careers?
 
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