Ah yes because I was certainly clamoring for Diallo to come into the side after his time at Rangers in his first loan. Great logic there! fecking nitwit. The poster I replied to asked what metrics I looked at besides just watching both players to determine why I thought Amad is the better option, so I provided them.
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Ah yes because I was certainly clamoring for Diallo to come into the side after his time at Rangers in his first loan. Great logic there! fecking nitwit. The poster I replied to asked what metrics I looked at besides just watching both players to determine why I thought Amad is the better option, so I provided them.
Interesting read, if Amad can translate his form from this season to the premier league then he’ll provide most of Antony’s best traits combined with more creativity. I do expect Antony to improve next season, I think he’s looked a lot more threatening in general over the last couple months than he did earlier in the season. I also expect Ten Hag to bleed Amad in slowly so it may be the season after next before he starts really competing for a first team spot.Long post incoming so bare with me, but outside of watching both extensively with my own eyes, here's what the numbers say.
Antony
His xG is high mainly because he shoots a ton, as he's in the 95th percentile of all AM's/wingers for shots attempted per 90. But goalscoring/shoddy finishing isn't my main issue with Antony, as many young wingers are very hit or miss in front of goal (even though he shoots too often).
Amad
Amad has been more productive this year so it's no surprise he looks a bit better on the surface with these numbers. The nice part is that he's already outperforming his xG, which is impressive for a young player with as many goals as he has this year let alone someone that isn't even a striker. But I don't expect either player to be (hopefully) relied upon as a main source of goals next year for us, so let's dig deeper and see what really sets the two apart.
Antony
Those passing stats are shocking, especially from a player that isn't very creative either. At the very least you'd want to seem him circulating the ball more to our main creators, but this shows that he's a bit of a black hole which matches up what we see in game.
Amad Diallo
Well that's a big difference. Amad not only shows a more willing tendency to pass and combine with others (as well as being more successful at it via %), but he's notably far more progressive in his passes than Antony. He more than doubles him in passes into the final third and general progressive passes are over 1 full pass more per 90. Neither player is uber creative in fashioning actual scoring chances, but Amad shows far more ability to find other players with forward passes while keeping the tempo high. This is vital, as we need more technical ability in our team and the ability to accurately pass forward, while seemingly a simple skill, is often lacking within our side. You don't need every player in the side to be a Bruno-like wizard at creating and assisting, but you certainly need all of them to have the confidence to play passes in tight spaces to find gaps against the more well drilled or higher pressing sides.
Antony
Amad Diallo
Finally we get to dribbling/possession stats on ball. Antony is actually very tough to dispossess, which matches what we all see each match day. For all his faults, he does manage to wriggle out of difficult situations while keeping the ball and does so clearly better than Amad at this time. However, you can also see that Amad gets on the ball far more in general, especially in the middle third of the pitch, and while he isn't Garnacho running at his man he's more willing and successful in taking on his man than Antony currently.
So to sum up: All of this reinforces the fact that while Amad is young and inexperienced, and obviously playing in an easier league, he's undoubtably more comfortable/talented both in front of goal and in the build up of attacking play. Which shows when you watch both, as Amad seems to just have more to his game while Antony is a one dimensional "shoot first" type winger that isn't efficient with his shots at all. In reality his best qualities for us currently are that he works very hard in tracking back and doesn't lose possession needlessly. While I appreciate those things, that doesn't scream "huge prospect that we need to keep as an automatic starter and give endless chances to". I'd feel differently about Antony if he had the take-on ability of Garnacho or some uber-young raw winger, as at least then you'd see a path for him to one day put it together with improved decision making/end product, but he doesn't. If he can't improve his overall play aside from shooting he's not going to make it here, or worse: we'll persist far too long while shunting a promising prospect to the side just because ETH/the club feels the need to "give him more time" because he cost 80m. And I don't think this is a one off, as many raised similar concerns about Antony even while he was at Ajax. He was never a Memphis type that just tonked a weak league, and his underlying metrics have always been quite average compared to the hype he had even before we signed him.
I mean credit to you for taking the time to look at stats but the bolded is a big reach.
Mowbray is clearly a big fan of Amad and from the highlights I've seen coupled with the things he said of him, it's quite obvious they rate him highly and want to feed him the ball as often as possible. Amad is thriving in this atmosphere as he's the big fish in a much lower quality league, which is a plus for him that he's stepping up the plate. However, to then extrapolate that form and use that as a basis to then compare the two is very premature.
All I'll say is bring Amad back and send Shola Shoretire to Mowbray - Its a win-win situation for everybody
Amad looked very much the same player against Fulham earlier this season so i do think that comparisons can be made.
Long post incoming so bare with me, but outside of watching both extensively with my own eyes, here's what the numbers say.
Antony
His xG is high mainly because he shoots a ton, as he's in the 95th percentile of all AM's/wingers for shots attempted per 90. But goalscoring/shoddy finishing isn't my main issue with Antony, as many young wingers are very hit or miss in front of goal (even though he shoots too often).
Amad
Amad has been more productive this year so it's no surprise he looks a bit better on the surface with these numbers. The nice part is that he's already outperforming his xG, which is impressive for a young player with as many goals as he has this year let alone someone that isn't even a striker. But I don't expect either player to be (hopefully) relied upon as a main source of goals next year for us, so let's dig deeper and see what really sets the two apart.
Amad's non pentalty goals is 0.35 per 90 mins, Antony scores at 0.23 per 90 mins. It's a minimal difference considering the quality of the leagues they are playing in.
Antony has better expected assists and expected goals. Antony has better npxg+xag than Amad too, which is a big thing considering Antony gets lot of shit for his productivity and he is playing in significantly superior league.
Antony
Those passing stats are shocking, especially from a player that isn't very creative either. At the very least you'd want to seem him circulating the ball more to our main creators, but this shows that he's a bit of a black hole which matches up what we see in game.
Amad Diallo
Well that's a big difference. Amad not only shows a more willing tendency to pass and combine with others (as well as being more successful at it via %), but he's notably far more progressive in his passes than Antony. He more than doubles him in passes into the final third and general progressive passes are over 1 full pass more per 90. Neither player is uber creative in fashioning actual scoring chances, but Amad shows far more ability to find other players with forward passes while keeping the tempo high. This is vital, as we need more technical ability in our team and the ability to accurately pass forward, while seemingly a simple skill, is often lacking within our side. You don't need every player in the side to be a Bruno-like wizard at creating and assisting, but you certainly need all of them to have the confidence to play passes in tight spaces to find gaps against the more well drilled or higher pressing sides.
This is the best part of the stats, you can just play with however you want. So Amad completes 8 more passes per 90 mins, which means Antony is a blackhole and Amad is a creative genius who keeps the move going.
Amad plays couple of progressive passes more and Antony scores better at Progress carriers and also at receiving progressive pass, which is important too. This means Antony works his socks off without ball to be an option for the player in possession. It is also proved by eye test, he is the player who is at end of the things more often than not.
Both of them plays similar number of short passes and at similar success rate. You have drawn a big conclusion based on 3 more passes and this will be significantly less for Amad when he plays for ManUtd as there are better plays who will be on the ball more. At Sunderland he is the point of attack for the team, at Manutd he won't be. So all the difference of 3 short passes and 8 passes in total won't matter.
Amad has double the passes into final third than Antony but Antony has at least 50% more passes into penalty area than Amad and 300% more crosses than Amad into final third. People complain that Antony doesn't cross (for nonexisting attacking player anyways), wonder how they feel about player who plays 1/3rd the crosses that Antony plays.
Antony also rate better at key passes and expected assists.
Antony
Amad Diallo
Finally we get to dribbling/possession stats on ball. Antony is actually very tough to dispossess, which matches what we all see each match day. For all his faults, he does manage to wriggle out of difficult situations while keeping the ball and does so clearly better than Amad at this time. However, you can also see that Amad gets on the ball far more in general, especially in the middle third of the pitch, and while he isn't Garnacho running at his man he's more willing and successful in taking on his man than Antony currently.
What it also shows is Antony is much more willing defender, helping his FB and then helps the defense in progressing the ball from defensive third, which is showed in touches in defensive third and in defensive penalty area. Also it shows how hard Antony works that he has more touches in defensive third and also in attacking third.
Also one more interesting point is, Antony has more touches in attacking third and completes dribbles at almost same rate and also tackled way less than Amad.
Also looks like Antony's dribbling is more purposeful, even though he completes less dribbles than Amad, he has more progressive dribbles and more dribbles that enters final third than Amad.
So to sum up: All of this reinforces the fact that while Amad is young and inexperienced, and obviously playing in an easier league, he's undoubtably more comfortable/talented both in front of goal and in the build up of attacking play. Which shows when you watch both, as Amad seems to just have more to his game while Antony is a one dimensional "shoot first" type winger that isn't efficient with his shots at all. In reality his best qualities for us currently are that he works very hard in tracking back and doesn't lose possession needlessly. While I appreciate those things, that doesn't scream "huge prospect that we need to keep as an automatic starter and give endless chances to". I'd feel differently about Antony if he had the take-on ability of Garnacho or some uber-young raw winger, as at least then you'd see a path for him to one day put it together with improved decision making/end product, but he doesn't. If he can't improve his overall play aside from shooting he's not going to make it here, or worse: we'll persist far too long while shunting a promising prospect to the side just because ETH/the club feels the need to "give him more time" because he cost 80m. And I don't think this is a one off, as many raised similar concerns about Antony even while he was at Ajax. He was never a Memphis type that just tonked a weak league, and his underlying metrics have always been quite average compared to the hype he had even before we signed him.
To sum it up, Amad might go on to become exceptional player and much better than Antony but his season in Championship doesn't prove any of that, at least his numbers. We have seen so many players who made step from championship and struggled to even hit 50% of the goals/assists they were hitting in Championship. Antony for all his "one dimensional shoot first' player has better key passes, expected assists than the playmaking Wizard Amad. Also carries the ball with much more purpose which is something stats show too.
It's amazing how same stats can be used to paint a completely different picture and conclude whatever you want to.
This is no way an attempt to downplay Amad, he is having brilliant season, this is just how stats (selective ones) can be used to draw any picture you want to.
It’s a good post but you really can’t draw conclusions from that data. If Amad comes back here and gets some games, great - that’s when this sort of comparison will be more relevant.Long post incoming so bare with me, but outside of watching both extensively with my own eyes, here's what the numbers say.
Antony
His xG is high mainly because he shoots a ton, as he's in the 95th percentile of all AM's/wingers for shots attempted per 90. But goalscoring/shoddy finishing isn't my main issue with Antony, as many young wingers are very hit or miss in front of goal (even though he shoots too often).
Amad
Amad has been more productive this year so it's no surprise he looks a bit better on the surface with these numbers. The nice part is that he's already outperforming his xG, which is impressive for a young player with as many goals as he has this year let alone someone that isn't even a striker. But I don't expect either player to be (hopefully) relied upon as a main source of goals next year for us, so let's dig deeper and see what really sets the two apart.
Antony
Those passing stats are shocking, especially from a player that isn't very creative either. At the very least you'd want to seem him circulating the ball more to our main creators, but this shows that he's a bit of a black hole which matches up what we see in game.
Amad Diallo
Well that's a big difference. Amad not only shows a more willing tendency to pass and combine with others (as well as being more successful at it via %), but he's notably far more progressive in his passes than Antony. He more than doubles him in passes into the final third and general progressive passes are over 1 full pass more per 90. Neither player is uber creative in fashioning actual scoring chances, but Amad shows far more ability to find other players with forward passes while keeping the tempo high. This is vital, as we need more technical ability in our team and the ability to accurately pass forward, while seemingly a simple skill, is often lacking within our side. You don't need every player in the side to be a Bruno-like wizard at creating and assisting, but you certainly need all of them to have the confidence to play passes in tight spaces to find gaps against the more well drilled or higher pressing sides.
Antony
Amad Diallo
Finally we get to dribbling/possession stats on ball. Antony is actually very tough to dispossess, which matches what we all see each match day. For all his faults, he does manage to wriggle out of difficult situations while keeping the ball and does so clearly better than Amad at this time. However, you can also see that Amad gets on the ball far more in general, especially in the middle third of the pitch, and while he isn't Garnacho running at his man he's more willing and successful in taking on his man than Antony currently.
So to sum up: All of this reinforces the fact that while Amad is young and inexperienced, and obviously playing in an easier league, he's undoubtably more comfortable/talented both in front of goal and in the build up of attacking play. Which shows when you watch both, as Amad seems to just have more to his game while Antony is a one dimensional "shoot first" type winger that isn't efficient with his shots at all. In reality his best qualities for us currently are that he works very hard in tracking back and doesn't lose possession needlessly. While I appreciate those things, that doesn't scream "huge prospect that we need to keep as an automatic starter and give endless chances to". I'd feel differently about Antony if he had the take-on ability of Garnacho or some uber-young raw winger, as at least then you'd see a path for him to one day put it together with improved decision making/end product, but he doesn't. If he can't improve his overall play aside from shooting he's not going to make it here, or worse: we'll persist far too long while shunting a promising prospect to the side just because ETH/the club feels the need to "give him more time" because he cost 80m. And I don't think this is a one off, as many raised similar concerns about Antony even while he was at Ajax. He was never a Memphis type that just tonked a weak league, and his underlying metrics have always been quite average compared to the hype he had even before we signed him.
I saw quite a bit of Odegaard in his last season at Eredivise. I think Odegaard were quite similar to Amad today at that point, but, unfortunatly, better.
Nominated for PFA Fans' Player of the Year in the Championship. You can vote for him here.
Only if he doesn't score tonight.
Only if he does.
Do you have any direct Wearside reason why you want him to score, as opposed to indirect reason of him actually being our player..
#ltfc #epl #herewegoDo you have any direct Wearside reason why you want him to score, as opposed to indirect reason of him actually being our player..
Because Luton have a more significant proportion of nasty fans in their fanbase than any UK club I know, and I don't want them anywhere near the Premier League.
Plus, whilst it is a very impressive story, you'll get all of this fairy tale hyperbole peddled by the media every match and I know it will grow tiring very quickly.
Can this boy dribble effectively? What are his attributes? Chances of being in our first team squad next season?
Been anonymous so far with Sunderland 2-0 down and heading out. He dived and play-acted early on so each touch of his is being booed by Luton fans.
Actually the only Sunderland player who's had the guts to keep hold of the ball in a match where the ball is in the air for 75% of time.
He's been quiet but I wouldn't describe it as anonymous. Only Sunderland player that can keep the ball.
Yeap. Not sure what people are expecting from him. 46 PotM and a goal involvement in every match.
Should we agree extension of loan with Sunderland for another season? He'd develop some more and have additional season in Championship. Does he need that or is ready now for Premier League?
If we loan him it must be to a PL club, in my opinion.
He seems done physically in this game now.
I think another year at Sunderland might be the right thing for him, even if they stay in the Championship.
Needs to move more off the ball
Definitely. His biggest weakness to me. That and his defending & pressing. Luckily they're very much coachable attributes.
It's a close one. Amad is only 20, but he's already 20.
I say bring him in and not loan him out again. Yes of course a loan means vastly more minutes in competition, but it's not as though we're overly stacked at RW as it stands today. The names Antony and Sancho roll of the tongue but have either player demonstrated this season that they are vastly superior to Amad? I don't think so. If Amad outplays Antony and/or Sancho and leaps over them on the depth chart, so fukking be it. And if he doesn't and sits too long on the bench we can always find a club to loan him to in the January window. And if we don't think he'll ever have enough to compete with Antony or Sancho for minutes then we might as well start looking to sell him rather than play for a bottom feeding club Everton or Forest.
I say bring him in and not loan him out again. Yes of course a loan means vastly more minutes in competition, but it's not as though we're overly stacked at RW as it stands today. The names Antony and Sancho roll of the tongue but have either player demonstrated this season that they are vastly superior to Amad? I don't think so. If Amad outplays Antony and/or Sancho and leaps over them on the depth chart, so fukking be it. And if he doesn't and sits too long on the bench we can always find a club to loan him to in the January window. And if we don't think he'll ever have enough to compete with Antony or Sancho for minutes then we might as well start looking to sell him rather than play for a bottom feeding club Everton or Forest.
He's struggled to get into the game this second half, and when he does get on the ball he's mostly given it away.
However, shows the confidence the manager has got in him to let him play through it in such a high pressure game.
However, shows the confidence the manager has got in him to let him play through it in such a high pressure game.
Ten Hag will get a look at him over the summer, right? Also a decision on Sancho would influence things. Feels like we need the money from a Sancho sale, and Garnacho and Rashford mean he might be 3rd choice at LW next year, and then his value will drop even further.
He has looked very tired for most of this half and Mowbray would've taken him off if it was a normal game.
. You must be new to football, and have no basis for such an outdated dinosaur opinion.Ever heard of Millwall?
Welcome home.
Pretty relevant comparison, Amad compared to championship players and Antony compared to PL.
Sell Sancho, and let Amad develop as back up to Antony (with Garnacho behind Rashford on the right). Sancho hasn't done anything in two seasons, but still has a resale value.
The key factor in this whole thing.
It's been a marvelous season for Amad. After being in danger of falling away he has revitalised his career this season and shown his obvious quality. It might just be a season too soon but I do believe he'll make it at United. A PL loan is a must though if we decide he needs another year. Too good for the Championship
Was he confronted by a fan after ?
Disappointing night for him tonight but a really good season for him. Don't think he was bad tonight but didn't really make much of an impression, but Sunderland as a team didn't show anything either.
1985 March 13th.
Ever heard of Millwall?
Was targeted by Luton, very much snapping at his heels whenever he got the ball.
Was dominated physically tonight, he will come across plenty of teams who will do likewise in the premiership so only a learning experience for him.
Was dominated physically tonight, he will come across plenty of teams who will do likewise in the premiership so only a learning experience for him.
Have to say it’s amazing what he has done in the championship if what I saw today are his teammates. Number 10 was good a good baller it was clear to see but the rest...
Probably the closest thing to what he will experience in the prem tonight when he is good enough to play there. Luton are so physical
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