No they don't. Liverpool have never topped this league on RAWK because as the season progresses, it converges with the actual league table, and as Liverpool have never won the PL, they haven't won the alternate one either. They've had a couple of funny one-offs, such as the "if the shots that hit the crossbar were goals", "if a team's top scorer's goals were removed" and "if the season ran between January and December" but even on there they've been taken with very large pinches of salt, or ignored completely.
You don't understand what's going on, don't want to admit it, but feel the need to chime in with your unwanted two cents anyway. Bugger off.
Can you please threadban @Chorley1974 from this thread? I mean, what is his point here? Usually, these types of threads (which are at least as long as were in RAWK) has this type of defense from Wummers like him.
It is as least as old as the RAWK table.
Now if you don't like it, close the thread. Instead of telling us how smart you are and how stupid we are from doing this, all you're showing is that you're unable to read.
It is as least as old as the RAWK table.
Now if you don't like it, close the thread. Instead of telling us how smart you are and how stupid we are from doing this, all you're showing is that you're unable to read.
It's mildly interesting but obviously without taking into account all the various intricacies of football like form, suspensions, boost of a new manager, bad refereeing decisions and everything else there's limited insight you can really gain.
Also a par of 90 to win the league seems too high, surely most teams to win the Premier League would be over par in that case.
It's mildly interesting but obviously without taking into account all the various intricacies of football like form, suspensions, boost of a new manager, bad refereeing decisions and everything else there's limited insight you can really gain.
Also a par of 90 to win the league seems too high, surely most teams to win the Premier League would be over par in that case.
Well, obviously it's very rudimentary, but it's not too bad an indicator of how teams are faring.
Form is the real kicker, and trying to work that in is the proper challenge, I think.
Suspensions, injuries and in obviously now the ACoN potentially taking key players out of teams is another factor, but then you'd also need to chart player performances and their statistical importance to a team.
Refereeing is another factor, and possibly the most difficult to judge because there are so many contentious decisions that I'm not sure you could be particularly objective with it.
As for "new manager boosts", I'm not sure that exists. We remember managers who make a flying start because the team they took over were obviously doing poorly, hence them getting the job in the first place, but there are plenty of instances where that simply doesn't happen.
The guys obviously put time into it and he's not stated it's any more than a guide. It's just giving an idea of where teams are at and whats coming up.
Think some guys are missing the point about 90pts saying its too high. Think of it like a round of golf in that the course is a par 90
No they don't. Liverpool have never topped this league on RAWK because as the season progresses, it converges with the actual league table, and as Liverpool have never won the PL, they haven't won the alternate one either. They've had a couple of funny one-offs, such as the "if the shots that hit the crossbar were goals", "if a team's top scorer's goals were removed" and "if the season ran between January and December" but even on there they've been taken with very large pinches of salt, or ignored completely.
You don't understand what's going on, don't want to admit it, but feel the need to chime in with your unwanted two cents anyway. Bugger off.
What I really like about this chart is that is is truly in sync with the PL this season for the first time. We are definitely on course for 90 points. City and Arsenal are massively underachieving as per their fixtures played compared to us and Pool. Spurs have been winning difficult games and now have an easier run of fixtures to maintain their spot in this Alternate league table and go higher on the real table. Also United have been beating easier teams in the last 4 games which they were anyways expected to win to challenge for the top 4 position. If Utd drop points vs Pool at home, that's top 4 gone for me.
It's worth bearing in mind that for the RAWK version - if you win a difficult game and another team loses an 'easy' game that a 5 point swings occurs in the figures.
In the real life table you will only gain 3pts from this happening.
So what is a theoretical 10 point gap can actually disappear in 2 consecutive actual losses - pretend tables are subject to more dynamic change, maybe..
By the end of the season, the tables are the same. Also, the tables are isomorphic (i.e knowing one table and the list of fixtures, you can always get the other one).
The alternative table is just an another way of looking at the same thing.
It's worth bearing in mind that for the RAWK version - if you win a difficult game and another team loses an 'easy' game that a 5 point swings occurs in the figures.
In the real life table you will only gain 3pts from this happening.
So what is a theoretical 10 point gap can actually disappear in 2 consecutive actual losses - pretend tables are subject to more dynamic change, maybe..
Which actually makes sense. The table takes into account the difficulty of the matches. Losing against Chelsea away or Sunderland at home is not exactly the same despite that you get 0 points from those matches. If the first happens, then you still have to play Sunderland at home and likely win so you get 3 points from those 2 matches. However if you lose against Sunderland at home, then you still have to play against Chelsea away and likely lose so get 0 points from those 2 matches.
The easiest way of interpreting alternative table is the difference on the expectation of points to real points. Of course, the rules for the expectations of points are very simplistic.
@Alex99 Interesting stuff.
The comments about the difficulties to include form of a team into the maths for this table made me think of incorporating ELO values. The site www.clubelo.com (NAYY) calculates for hundreds of clubs ELO points similar to what you know from FIFA's ELO lists. The guy running the site updates it after every league match day and after every Champions League and Europa League match. Changes to ELO points reflect change of form.
So I've taken what some of you guys have said on board, and although I wasn't really a fan of it, I've come round to the idea of a top 6, particularly for this season. As such, I've sort of created an alternative, alternative league.
Additionally, I wasn't a fan of Leicester being amongst the top sides, and Chelsea, United and Liverpool amongst the middle ones, so I took a leaf out of UEFA's book and created a sort of coefficient score over the previous 5 domestic seasons, with more weight being given to more recent seasons. As a result, the new tiers ended up as follows (Southampton classed as 'Top' for the Top sides and Sunderland as 'Bottom' for the Bottom sides):
Top: City, Arsenal, Spurs, United, Chelsea & Liverpool (Southampton)
Middle: Southampton, Everton, Stoke, West Ham, Swansea, Leicester, West Brom & Sunderland
Par for this version will be 82 points, with the expectation remaining that a team wins all home matches, wins all away matches against Bottom sides, draws all away matches against Middle sides, and allows for defeats away to all Top sides.
I've also set it up in a way that should allow me to create a graph detailing the progression throughout the season, and where teams have lost or gained ground.
I'll run this one alongside the other one to see what the differences are, although there won't be any graphs for the other one due to the way I initially set it up.
Top 6 after 19 games (I haven't input GW20's results in yet) is as follows:
If we take Chelsea as the base point, this is how the teams compare to the other format:
Liverpool: Still 2nd but 1 point further behind Chelsea.
Spurs: Moved up to 3rd from 4th, but 1 point further behind Chelsea. Gap between them and Liverpool remains the same. Now 3 points ahead of Arsenal rather than Level.
City: Moved up to 4th from 5th, and 2 points closer to Chelsea, and 3 points closer to Spurs and Liverpool. Now 2 points ahead of Arsenal rather than 4 behind.
Arsenal: Moved down from 3rd to 5th, and 4 points further away from Chelsea. Now 3 points behind Spurs rather than level, and a further 3 points behind Liverpool. Also now 2 points behind City rather than 4 points ahead.
United: Remain in 6th, but are 1 point closer to Chelsea, 5 points closer to Arsenal, 2 points closer to Spurs and Liverpool, but are 1 point further behind City.
Potential tables once the rest of GW20's fixtures are completed:
Chelsea: +8 to +5
Liverpool: +2
Spurs: 0 to -3
City: -1
Arsenal: -3 to -6
United: -7
Chelsea: 3 to 0
Liverpool: -4
Arsenal: -4 to -7
Spurs: -4 to -7
City: -8
United: -13
Bump. @Alex99 can you please update your table, and also add RAWK-like diagrams.
Here is the RAWK version:
Like in real table, we are really close to Arsenal and City. As I said last week, Spurs are doing better than people are giving them credit, they are winning difficult matches in a row, and the only negative result they have had in a long time is their match at Old Trafford (and even that is not a very bad result).
Also, 6 teams are currently above the UCL line. Nothing to be surprised, but really, it is looking clear that not even 75 points will be enough to get a place in UCL next season.
Looking at the next run of fixtures, here are the potential points tallies by the end of Game Week 30 with where points can be won/lost displayed for each team (this is only for the better, top 6/par version):
vs Burnley (A): 0 to -3
vs Swansea (H): 0 to -3
vs West Ham (A): 2 to -1
vs Watford (H): 0 to -3
vs Stoke (A): 2 to -1
vs Palace (H): 0 to -3
Total: 4 to -14
Chelsea's games before the run-in should be pretty straightforward. They'll be looking to pick up maximum points, especially as they'll be up against City, United, Everton and Southampton in their final 8. West Ham and Stoke away, and possibly a resurgent Swansea at home the potential stumbling blocks.
vs Liverpool (A): 3 to 0
vs Stoke (H): 0 to -3
vs Everton (H): 0 to -3
vs Palace (A): 0 to -3
vs Southampton (H): 0 to -3
vs Burnley (A): 0 to -3
Total: 3 to -15
Spurs' next 6 sees them as favourites in all but 1 game, but Everton and Southampton at home have the potential to be difficult, and Liverpool are always up for it against one of the top sides so possibly a few points dropped. Arsenal and United still to visit, and away trips to relegation battlers Hull, Swansea and Leicester could make for a tough run-in too.
vs Bournemouth (A): 0 to -3
vs United (H): 0 to -3
vs Sunderland (A): 0 to -3
vs Stoke (H): 0 to -3
vs Liverpool (H): 0 to -3
vs Arsenal (A): 3 to 0
Total: 3 to -15
Similar to Spurs in that they'll find themselves favourites in the majority but have a few tough games. The away trip to Arsenal the standout, but the visits of United and Liverpool won't be easy, and there's always the risk of getting Moysed at Sunderland. Chelsea and Southampton away make up the toughest fixtures of their run-in, with Hull being a dark-horse to take some points if things keep up.
vs Spurs (H): 0 to -3
vs Leicester (A): 2 to -1
vs Arsenal (H): 0 to -3
vs Burnley (H): 0 to -3
vs City (A): 3 to 0
vs Everton (H): 0 to -3
Total: 5 to -13
You'd expect the visits of Spurs, Arsenal and Everton, and the trip to City to be the real tough fixtures here, but the way they're playing, Leicester and Burnley might pose more of a threat. Could be make or break for Liverpool's top 4 hopes in the next 6 games with a run like that. Their run-in is fairly straightforward (on paper), with the visit of Southampton and trip to West Ham being the toughest fixtures.
vs Hull (H): 0 to -3
vs Southampton (A): 3 to 0
vs Liverpool (A): 3 to 0
vs Leicester (H): 0 to -3
vs West Brom (A): 2 to -1
vs City (H): 0 to -3
Total: 8 to -10
Tough run for Arsenal but if they can come through it you'd expect their top 4 spot to be secure. Southampton and West Brom trips a bit generous with the expected results mind. Run-in includes a trip to Spurs and the visits of United and Everton so they won't want to drop too many in the tough home games here.
vs Watford (H): 0 to -3
vs City (A): 3 to 0
vs Bournemouth (H): 0 to -3
vs Southampton (A): 3 to 0
vs Middlesbrough (A): 0 to -3
vs West Brom (H): 0 to -3
Total: 6 to -12
Simple enough run for United. As with Arsenal, the trip to Southampton is a bit generous with the expected result, and other than the trip to City you'd expect United to be getting close to maximum points from that run if they want to keep their top 4 hopes alive. With Everton and Chelsea coming to Manchester and two trips to North London in their final 8 they'll need to pick up some momentum if they're to make the CL spots.
Fecking hell
Are we on course for the alternative treble?
edit: it really is amazing, when you think about it - we hit the post as much as Spurs, yet they don'y have any additional points and we have 11? I guess they were lucky with their opponents and hit a lot of woodwork in an already won games, but still
