Not sure how those changes affect the sweeper, actually over the last years we've seen more teams with 3 at the back with one of the three playing an important role in the buildup than in at least 10 years before 2005. Jonathan Wilson wrote about the return of the sweeper in 2009 because more teams used a third man for defensive duties who switched between defense and midfield. Beckenbauer would be outstanding in that role in the modern game.
All-time Fantasy Draft - Thisistheone v Fergus'son
- Thread starter Brwned
- Start date
Not sure how those changes affect the sweeper, actually over the last years we've seen more teams with 3 at the back with one of the three playing an important role in the buildup than in at least 10 years before 2005. Jonathan Wilson wrote about the return of the sweeper in 2009 because more teams used a third man for defensive duties who switched between defense and midfield. Beckenbauer would be outstanding in that role in the modern game.
Have a good one mate.
You put Beckenbauer in as a sweeper against a team featuring Maradona, and he is going to be worrying about him, regardless of who's in midfield. He's going to be taking the ball off Maradona, or picking it up when someone else manages to get in one of those 'half-tackles' which Maradona and Messi both so often manage to run through, and then feeding it forwards, not striding out with quite as much adventure as usual. Otherwise you leave those CBs to Maradona and Charlton's mercy. That's why Beckenbauer is potentially a really good call in this contest. And it's also why you might need an Alonso sort, to pick up the areas of Beckenbauer's game which are inevitably going to be a bit more limited than normal.
Just to be clear, when I talked earlier about the high-energy/calm and composed dichotomy, it's got nothing to do with ability on and off the ball. Like you, Fergus' Son, I only have a limited knowledge of Ocwirk, but I get the impression he was more Xavi than Xabi, if you see what I mean.
Just giving this a quick bump as I probably won't be on until a bit later now.
Christ, this is very difficult to work out.
I agree with some points that have been made:
With two forwards I like the sweeping behind them, with one it is wasteful to have Beckenbauer so far back. I would probably have him sweeping behind the DMs, not the CBs, and charging forward from there.
As it is, I see the game playing out with Thisistheone dominating and Fergus'son sitting back and hitting on the break through his wingbacks. I'm not seeing Didi influencing the game in any shape or form. The advanced average positions Charlton and Coluna are assigned would then be fairly accurate in practice.
Can Fergus'son's defence deal with that? Quite likely IMO. I can't see Thisistheone scoring more than twice despite dominating the game, and probably just the one time. But on the other hand, despite a formidable forward pair, I can't see Fergus'son scoring more than once, if at all.
Looking at the benches. Both Weah and Luis Enrique could make valuable contributions. In fact, I have no idea why Weah isn't playing already. So thisistheone has options if needing goals. Fergus has yet another libero
and a classic left winger, so not much room for manoeuvre.
I was leaning for the game possibly being a draw, but that's decided it for me.
I agree with some points that have been made:
- Thisistheone's formation misrepresents what I would naturally expect his players to do or where they'd be. His brief explanations of what Coluna and Charlton are doing are more in line with my expectation that they would not be "Diego's wingmen/inside forwards"
- Didi does look completely isolated
- Fergus'son has a very defensive setup and is mostly reliant on the wingbacks to provide good enough occasional crosses for Kocsis and Eusebio to score from
With two forwards I like the sweeping behind them, with one it is wasteful to have Beckenbauer so far back. I would probably have him sweeping behind the DMs, not the CBs, and charging forward from there.
As it is, I see the game playing out with Thisistheone dominating and Fergus'son sitting back and hitting on the break through his wingbacks. I'm not seeing Didi influencing the game in any shape or form. The advanced average positions Charlton and Coluna are assigned would then be fairly accurate in practice.
Can Fergus'son's defence deal with that? Quite likely IMO. I can't see Thisistheone scoring more than twice despite dominating the game, and probably just the one time. But on the other hand, despite a formidable forward pair, I can't see Fergus'son scoring more than once, if at all.
Looking at the benches. Both Weah and Luis Enrique could make valuable contributions. In fact, I have no idea why Weah isn't playing already. So thisistheone has options if needing goals. Fergus has yet another libero
and a classic left winger, so not much room for manoeuvre.I was leaning for the game possibly being a draw, but that's decided it for me.
Fergus'son getting back into the game, still long time to go!
All this about Charlton and Coluna on the wing, but the graphic clearly shows them playing narrow, and specifies that the (top class) full backs would play a big part in providing overlapping width. Thisistheone has balance and real quality all over the pitch.
If we're going by the logic that any player with a broad skillset can play right across the pitch in any midfield position then I should've just got Sindelar and Hidegkuti and stuck them in any old position to get them in the team. The vast majority of players in this draft had the skill to play a number of positions but play them outside of their best role and you're limiting them somehow, and up against the quality every team in the draft has you need all of your players to be somewhere close to 100%. I can see Charlton doing fine with the help of Lahm (the weakest player in the match, IMO) but I can't help feeling you're just losing too much with Coluna out there. I personally see Eto'o doing the hard work just as well while providing something different in attack, allowing Weah to come in and really give Fergus' sturdy defence something to worry about. If not than Luis Enrique is absolutely perfect for the role, not quite as good as Coluna but Enrique at 100% is better than Coluna at 50%.
Christ, this is very difficult to work out.
I agree with some points that have been made:
- Thisistheone's formation misrepresents what I would naturally expect his players to do or where they'd be. His brief explanations of what Coluna and Charlton are doing are more in line with my expectation that they would not be "Diego's wingmen/inside forwards"
[*]Didi does look completely isolated
Expanding on Beckenbauer's role. Question: why does the libero have to adopt the sweeping position behind the CBs and occasionally ahead of them (or just charging?) as per the arrow, and not the other way around?I find it odd people always go for that option.
- Fergus'son has a very defensive setup and is mostly reliant on the wingbacks to provide good enough occasional crosses for Kocsis and Eusebio to score from
With two forwards I like the sweeping behind them, with one it is wasteful to have Beckenbauer so far back. I would probably have him sweeping behind the DMs, not the CBs, and charging forward from there.
As it is, I see the game playing out with Thisistheone dominating and Fergus'son sitting back and hitting on the break through his wingbacks. I'm not seeing Didi influencing the game in any shape or form. The advanced average positions Charlton and Coluna are assigned would then be fairly accurate in practice.
Can Fergus'son's defence deal with that? Quite likely IMO. I can't see Thisistheone scoring more than twice despite dominating the game, and probably just the one time. But on the other hand, despite a formidable forward pair, I can't see Fergus'son scoring more than once, if at all.
Looking at the benches. Both Weah and Luis Enrique could make valuable contributions. In fact, I have no idea why Weah isn't playing already. So thisistheone has options if needing goals. Fergus has yet another libero
I was leaning for the game possibly being a draw, but that's decided it for me.
That's just down to the graphic I think.
In the conversion from defense to attack Didi would be linking up with a surging Beckenbauer and both wingbacks. He isn't going to dominate the midfield, but I can definitely see some combinations forming there with the likes of Beckenbaur, Didi, Krol, Ocwirk all who had excellent ball control.
I agree that this seems like a low-scoring affair, but on set pieces you do have to note the aerial threat of Fergus'son's team: Kocsis, Eusébio, Vidic, all notably excellent headers and scorers with the head, and with Didi's delivery
in fairness, Maradona's delivery isn't any worse, but his targets are far less noted for their aerial game IMO (just Blanc).Is there somewhere I can create a formation graphic on the iPad? Not at home and contemplating changes..
Send them to me and I can send you one via PM
No, not just the graphic, it looks like a bunch of people are all-out defending and the moment they get the ball ship it over to Didi, who is adequately taken care of by Alonso/Bremner. He really looks stranded and not adequately supported, and it's not just the graphic.
I agree that this seems like a low-scoring affair, but on set pieces you do have to note the aerial threat of Fergus'son's team: Kocsis, Eusébio, Vidic, all notably excellent headers and scorers with the head, and with Didi's delivery
Problem is I can't see much action through the centre, so don't expect too many set pieces either. Krol/Zanetti don't strike me as players who will make the oppo commit countless fouls. There would be a few corners here and there though.
All of Pirri, Ocwirk, Beckenbauer, Krol and Zanetti will be around Didi when in possession, and Eusebio and Kocsis won't just be waiting for the ball, both are more than capable of combining with Didi too, Kocsis played as an inside forward often. It's strange that people think Didi will be isolated when he is playing in essentially a 5 man midfield, if Pirri and Okwirk are being discounted because they have full backs to cover, then we assume that the full backs and Beckenbauer (as well as my two strikers!!) will have the room to work in tandem with Didi going forward.
I think the threat my attackers will bring is being underestimated, the duo up front is ridiculously good, greatest of all time level, they will be giving the opposition a torrid time, and with my wingbacks flourishing without an immediate counterthreat, and the undoubted capability of Krol, Beckenbauer, Didi Ocwirk and Pirri to find them with the highest quality passing, they'll find enough oppurtunity to cause some real damage.
I think the threat my attackers will bring is being underestimated, the duo up front is ridiculously good, greatest of all time level, they will be giving the opposition a torrid time, and with my wingbacks flourishing without an immediate counterthreat, and the undoubted capability of Krol, Beckenbauer, Didi Ocwirk and Pirri to find them with the highest quality passing, they'll find enough oppurtunity to cause some real damage.
That's exactly it. That's what your own arrows are telling me, that even when you have the ball, those two will stay back to provide cover and it's only the wingbacks and Beckenbauer charging through to help out Didi. So effectively, you go back to the initial problem pointed out: can Didi-Beckenbauer work against a hardworking midfield? It certainly couldn't defensively, attack-wise they may find it hard, particularly as I would expect Coluna to be helping Bremner and Alonso. And if you keep losing possession in those central advances, will Beckenbauer keep coming forward just to find himself stranded and needing to track all the way back?
TBH, I think that was completely unnecessary conservatism as there's not much wide threat to worry about, but those are quite clearly your instructions and when you have a set up that requires so much discipline, I would expect those two to follow your instructions to the letter.
I'm not underestimating them at all. I find it a real shame they are relying almost entirely on service from your wingbacks, IF they beat thisistheone's fullbacks.
Happy to bump this just to get a few things clear.
First up, subs. On comes Weah and Luis Enrique
First up, subs. On comes Weah and Luis Enrique
Saying Luis Enrique would be better there than Coluna is like saying Jesper Blomqvist would be better in our 2008 team on the left over Rooney, as that’s his natural position. No chance. Rooney is much the better player just like Coluna is much better than Luis Enrique (who was fantastic by the way, so that shows how good Coluna was)
Got to laugh at the defence of the sweeper. De Rossi played there for Italy! Yeah, in the opening group game of a Euro’s, in a game his team didn’t win, against a Spanish team without any strikers. Prandelli played a blinder in some ways, guessing Spain would line up without a striker. But if they had a no.9 there is no chance Prandelli or any other manager would use a sweeper.
If anyone seriously believes you can get away with a sweeper in the modern game then please, have a word with Fergie, Guardiola, Mourinho, Heyncks & Wenger as they’re all clearly missing out on something.
Let’s discuss in basic terms what is wrong with a sweeper these days. Gone are the days of Sacchi’s Milan or Tony Adams & Arsenal playing a high line. What is going to stop Bobby Charlton making a run, being miles off-side but not active, Maradona picking out Eto’o or Weah who are miles quicker than Vidic or Billy Costacurta, running through and squaring it for the unmarked Bobby to tap in?
Overly simplistic yes, but it’s true. Teams have to sit deeper now, which is why there is more space between the lines for smaller, more technically gifted players to thrive. But anyway, just to quench Brwned’s peculiar thirst, (hasn’t voted in any other game, yet he’s like a bias ref in this one, giving every decision to Fergus’ son. And somehow getting past EDogen, Is this another Calciopoli scandal?) I’m bringing on Weah & Luis Enrique.
And Lahm is the weakest player? What, against Fergus’son’s wingers? Vidic is the weakest player on the pitch no question. Lahm is having a field day with no direct opposition, with Bremner & Alonso helping and with Charlton ahead of him. My fullbacks are better than Fergus’ son’s imo. Carlos Alberto is clearly ahead of Zanetti who let’s be honest is getting brownie points because he’s stayed at a high level for a long time. He’s limited and there are better right backs who didn’t get picked in this draft.
And last but not least, are we ignoring the fact that I have THE best player on the pitch? You’ve got Maradona in a bracket all of his own then below that we have Beckenbauer & Charlton. (But Beckenbauer is playing a sweeper role? Should be in midfield helping out poor old Didi). My team is definitely the stronger & Diego Maradona is having a significant impact regardless of whether some think that’s “cool” or not.
I've voted in others. The only reason I'm particularly vocal in this thread is because you're misrepresenting one of my favourite players. The only time you'll see him playing on the wing is on those crude formation graphics. He played as an inside forward which is exactly where you're playing him, but then you've got no-one providing him with the width he's grown accustomed to playing alongside Jose Augusto and Simões. It's not like playing Rooney out on the left wing, it's like playing Scholes there. You're losing so much from his game. If you were to play a centre mid/pure #10 out there that everyone knew then you'd be criticised from all over but you're not because few know enough about him to say either way. As for calling Zanetti a limited footballer, wow...that's outrageous and you know it!
Carlos Alberto and even Eto'o would be wider, so there was width for Coluna. Crude formation graphics is exactly what these are in fairness. It's a vague summary of where each player will operate but we all know in reality it's different.
Do you think Rooney was wasted in 2008 out on the left? I don't because - we were successful.
Do you think Rooney was wasted in 2008 out on the left? I don't because - we were successful.
If Eto'o is going to be wider then what's the point in putting him central? What's the point in having an image that doesn't actually represent how you've set up?
He only played out on the left when we went 451 for the big games in Europe, and yes, he was wasted. We played him out there because we had no-one else capable of offering that kind of work-rate and attacking influence - that's not the case with Coluna here because you could've picked a less talented player more suited to the role and he'd be much more effective. Rooney still did a good job though because he's more than capable out there. Coluna's more like Scholes - much less comfortable out there.
He only played out on the left when we went 451 for the big games in Europe, and yes, he was wasted. We played him out there because we had no-one else capable of offering that kind of work-rate and attacking influence - that's not the case with Coluna here because you could've picked a less talented player more suited to the role and he'd be much more effective. Rooney still did a good job though because he's more than capable out there. Coluna's more like Scholes - much less comfortable out there.
Ok Zanetti is not a limited player I'll hold my hands up on that one. But he isn't as good as Carlos Alberto for me.
Certainly I'd agree on that, he's the best fullback on the pitch. Krol's pure class though and Zanetti's comfortably on the next level, and both were excellent all-round footballers which is why we've seen the former excel as a Libero and the latter excel as a centre mid - Lahm's at least one level below.
Well thats the problem with graphics. Players move around! Eto'o is central but he can also make runs out wide like any real life striker. Look how often RvP drifted wide last night.
Footballuser doesn't offer arrows but I could throw a load of them in as well if needed.
Footballuser doesn't offer arrows but I could throw a load of them in as well if needed.
As for Lahm, yes he's a level below the greats but in this match he doesn't have anyone coming up against him really. It's not like he's got Garrincha or Matthews on his case.
Bit harsh on Zanetti who, even now at 58, still compares well with the best full-back has to offer.
I agree with the introduction of Luis Enrique who was the master of self-sacrifice and bringing out the best in more gifted footballers such as Figo and Rivaldo.
I agree with the introduction of Luis Enrique who was the master of self-sacrifice and bringing out the best in more gifted footballers such as Figo and Rivaldo.
Not really related to this thread but it's further praise for Charlton so I'm sure Thisistheone isn't complaining! I came across this post echoing pete's view of Moore and I thought it was interesting:
Also relevant to the Dalglish discussion earlier:
Also relevant to the Dalglish discussion earlier:
But that was a real team, and this is a fantasy draft. The aim here can realistically be for perfection, and sacrificing the game of a player like Coluna (or not sacrificing it, if he is indeed playing more centrally than the graphic suggests, but then having a potentially damaging lack of width on that flank) should certainly count against you.
In the same way, most seem to agree than Fergus Son's use of Beckenbauer is a good counterbalance to Maradona's threat, but that otherwise there are some serious flaws in it.
Zanetti 'Limited' he's possibly the best fullback I've ever seen
he's possibly the best fullback I've ever seenI agree that in this game, Lahm isn't really a problem, he should deal with Zanetti, both will cancel each other out. That's it. Can't see much action on that side of the pitch.
Still, for future games, you should think about playing him as a left back. He's basically another CM when moving forward, he won't provide width at all. His left foot is totally useless. Lahm worked well as a left back with Zé Roberto - a very underrated player, btw. - in midfield, who basically owned the left side of the pitch while Lahm took his place in midfield. It was a strange setup. Lahm's a way better right back, if you want your fullbacks to provide width. Along with that, Lahm's a better defender on the right as well, especially against quick wingers who attack down the line and won't drift into the middle of the pitch. Playing on the left, he always has to tackle with his weak foot. He said it several times himself and was not very happy when he had to move back to the left side for the first half of last season. He wanted to play right back all his life.
I love Lahm, think he's still underrated, even in germany, wonderful player, smart decision making and with a great balance between defense and attack. Still, he's out of his depth in this draft when played as a left back. He's not good enough to help control the midfield against these alltime greats and he's useless providing width. He's by far the weakest link in your team, you really should find a better player for that position, imo.
I would agree with it as well, wouldn't I?
Agree on Zanetti, don't think he deserves being classed as worse than Carlos Alberto either. Not comfortably and without any ifs or buts. (Edit: let alone limited)
That said, he is Fergus'sons primary attacking outlet the way he has set up, and at this level that's not enough.
If I get through, which is looking more likely as the time counts down, I will most definitely look to bring in a better left back.
After the stick I've taken for Coluna, I'll also be looking to play him deeper next time and bring in a different kind of attacking midfielder.
ps. That Zanetti comment is going to haunt me for a while isn't it! Was a stupid comment in fairness.
Well done to Thisistheone but claims of bias in my favour were utter bullshit, if anything it was the other way round!
Brwned layed into me for mis-using one of his favourite players and losing his vote could have been quite harmful when other posters check to see who has backed which horse. Luckily anto came in to save the day for me like a knight in shining armour!
There you go, no bias, certainly not in my favour.
All I can say is that I was glad that most of the managers and people that were keenly interested in the draft voted for my team, I wasn't so successful in attracting the average persons vote though.
Mate, hope you are not referring to me regarding bias. I listed all my concerns when this was still a very competitive game (12-10 I think). Thisistheone acted on some and clearly it helped him storm ahead, while you still have the same formation graphic with those arrows (even when I offered to put one together for you).
Arrows should be used sparingly, there is a temptation to overdo them and tie yourself up in knots. To me, it makes no sense that Ocwirk and Pirri are being asked to cover for the wingbacks, but that's what you did. Had there been no arrows my instinctive assumption would be that they would move forward along with Beckenbauer and support Didi appropriately, but you were specifically indicating that was not the case.
You didn't only not rectify it, you simply ignored it altogether. You won't see me fighting someone's corner in the latter stages of their game, but I certainly will chip in halfway through with my views/advice to both sides. Up to you what you do with that thereafter.