Now there's a surprise
I do agree either Scholes or Xavi should get dropped for Souness though. Letting Matthaus come into his own in midfield would add more than those two alongside each other.
All-time Fantasy Draft - Stobzilla v DanNistelrooy
- Thread starter Brwned
- Start date
Now there's a surprise
I do agree either Scholes or Xavi should get dropped for Souness though. Letting Matthaus come into his own in midfield would add more than those two alongside each other.
Well Scholes and Xavi's possession play would be fantastic foreplay but unleashing Matthaus, particularly up against Toure, would penetrate Dan's defence.
Just realised Savicevic is on - no need to go lopsided at all - a classic 4-2-3-1 would do the trick.
Just realised Savicevic is on - no need to go lopsided at all - a classic 4-2-3-1 would do the trick.
And the time for it is just about now, when Toure has completely run out of gas
Is that with Scholes or Matthaus playing on the apex?
That's what I like about Stobz's side, lots of options. Dan has no realistic Plan B. Plan A is not too shabby though!
Matthaus at the apex: him and Zidane will soon overload Toure.
I know its valentines day Gio but settle down ffs
Just to point it out, Stob has voted for himself while Dan hasn't so Stob is running on a -1 handicap.
Yep, six votes behind, looks a goner as it is.
This has gone quiet
Hungarian forward who could play across the frontline. A Barca legend, the story goes that the Camp Nou was built for the purpose of holding all the people who wanted to go and watch him
Also a drunk, like so many from his days.
Those old players are way too romanticised for my liking. The way people who were alive talk about them is the same way many many people talk about Beckham. But with him you hear more. It's only the positives you hear about the old players and it skews the picture. I don't trust it.
A lot of players seemed to have 0.8-0.9 goal ratio as well. The defense simply wasn't as good 30, 40 or 50 years ago as it was in the 90's or right now.
So really if you have a lot of players that are chosen purely on reputation you won't win any favors with me in the voting. Chances are I haven't seen them play. I also have a sneaky feeling that you lean towards those kind of teams more. That seems to be your pattern of voting. You're a romantic, aren't you anto?
I would hold up my hands I defend those players a fair bit and at times I've voted (very late and with the game a dead-rubber) to narrow unfair gaps. What little footage of Kubala I've seen indicate he was a cracking player and one that would adapt to the game today, but I wasn't "selling him" to you, just giving you enough to maybe get your interest to find out about him.
I do think Stobzilla had a better midfield, more control of the game and more scope for reshuffling and keeping players fresh. In a tight game that counts.
I agree though that at this stage having Kubala and Happel was asking for trouble, which is why I pointed out Savicevic and Ayala shouldn't be on the bench.
Kubala has a statue outside the Camp Nou for the same reason the Holy Trinity have one outside OT - they would've been legends in any generation. Sir Alex says something like "people question whether they'd be as good today but that's absolute nonsense, they'd be top players in any era" in this documentary:
The whole thing's worth a watch.
The whole thing's worth a watch.
Well done to Dan, I'm glad he went through, good game.
Happel doesn't even look that good on paper. Just some guy playing in Austria. His managerial career completely overshadows his playing career. And he was up against Ronaldo. Possibly the best player to have in your team today when counter attacking, something Dan would have done something off considering the tactics of the two teams.
By all means, Happel shouldn't have started to begin with.
I did find it quite difficult with the pre-TV age players and their profile invariably painted them as some sort of no-chinks-in-their-armour cross between Maradona and Matthaus. At the same time while conditions supporting the development of footballers have improved (training, pitches, balls, nutrition), great players would've been great in any era. And we are only talking about a handful of players from pre-1955: imagine we whittled down the best from the last couple of decades to just a handful of players: the standard pf what you're left with would inevitably be extremely high.
I think there's an argument to say that defending improved up till about the 1980s and since then it's gone slightly downhill. That's borne out to an extent by the average goals-per-game ratio in the big leagues.
Possibly to do with the progressive worsening of diving/other forms of gamesmanship to be fair, in turn making defending considerably harder.
Your inbox quota is full btw
I'm sure changes in rules and officiating have also had their influence on goal scoring. Stricter rules bring on a more cautious approach, hence a more thought out defense. Then we've also got more qualified coaches, both at bringing up youth and managers who are tactically better. It's all progress.
I agree that certainly if you had had these mold of players from the 60's today then they'll be capable as much as what we have now. That's just isn't the case and you can't really take that into context when comparing. You can only base on what you know.
I agree that certainly if you had had these mold of players from the 60's today then they'll be capable as much as what we have now. That's just isn't the case and you can't really take that into context when comparing. You can only base on what you know.
Sorry, that's annoying
I think certain allowances need to be made. Aldo was very keen on Gerson for instance but I discarded him on the basis he wouldn't keep up with the pace of the game today. No, not just the effect of his chain-smoking on running, stamina, etc. The pace the game is played at has changed quite radically, the space and time available to operate in is a fraction of what it used to be.
Now, someone who had the attributes to keep up with that I have no problem with (e.g. Rivelino). Surely, you have to assume they are getting equivalent fitness training regimes, etc. and that they learn the ins and outs of modern balls (otherwise Puskas would have spent all game ballooning it). But I would only disqualify players whose style indicates they wouldn't make the transition even if you assumed their fitness levels and technological advances have been "upgraded".
I know that is hard to gage and everyone will do it differently but if we are going to go down the line that old-school players didn't have the equipment, the fitness, etc. we may as well not run an all-time fantasy game because it is completely pointless.
Sorry, that's annoying
I think certain allowances need to be made. Aldo was very keen on Gerson for instance but I discarded him on the basis he wouldn't keep up with the pace of the game today. No, not just the effect of his chain-smoking on running, stamina, etc. The pace the game is played at has changed quite radically, the space and time available to operate in is a fraction of what it used to be.
Now, someone who had the attributes to keep up with that I have no problem with (e.g. Rivelino). Surely, you have to assume they are getting equivalent fitness training regimes, etc. and that they learn the ins and outs of modern balls (otherwise Puskas would have spent all game ballooning it). But I would only disqualify players whose style indicates they wouldn't make the transition even if you assumed their fitness levels and technological advances have been "upgraded".
I know that is hard to gage and everyone will do it differently but if we are going to go down the line that old-school players didn't have the equipment, the fitness, etc. we may as well not run an all-time fantasy game because it is completely pointless.
I'm just saying that there are so many factors of the unknown to assume that they'd be capable. Let's say these guys wouldn't be allowed to smoke or drink like they did. You think all of them would just say "yea alright boss". I don't. The mental aspect is totally different now. Dealing with media and criticisms. Maradona managed with all his baggage to be so great. Gascoigne didn't. Two immensely talented players that had a lot of baggage and didn't really live up to their potential. Would they have been better off playing 20 years earlier?
The point of this game isn't much beyond than these exact discussions. I was just explaining my point of view and why I vote like I do. I seem to remember you'd want that from people as it would add to the discussion and thus keeping the game more active.
For me personally, I didn't want to participate because it's an all time game and I have these opinions and wouldn't be able to pick a competing team unless it was filled with players from the past 25 years with the odd one sprinkled in between.
Not picking an argument mate, just exchanging views. I'm pretty sure in the semis and final you will mainly see recent players with a sprinkling of old greats.
Either way, nothing wrong with voting on what you know will work. I only gave those pointers on Kubala because he does indeed stand as one of the great players of the late 50s/early 60s and it's worth having him on your radar. That Barca side was quite unlucky that Real were so dominant, and Franco adamant to keep them so.
Either way, nothing wrong with voting on what you know will work. I only gave those pointers on Kubala because he does indeed stand as one of the great players of the late 50s/early 60s and it's worth having him on your radar. That Barca side was quite unlucky that Real were so dominant, and Franco adamant to keep them so.
It must because Kubala escaped the communism and wasn't a part of the great Hungarian team that I don't know who he is. It's easier to follow old international records than it is to follow foreign leagues. The World Cup is a much more documented and the information is more readily available than the league competitions that don't have English as it's native language.
I'd like a thread or something clarifying what went on in the Franco era. I've heard and read different things. Ultimately that Franco wasn't big on football and if he had to choose a club it would be Atletico Madrid's because of it's ties to the military. But he shifted between clubs at his convenience as it was just a propaganda tool really.
What I know is that he used his powers in influencing the Di Stefano transfer. That's about the only thing I know about. Some people like to call him a Real Madrid fan but that he wasn't. They had to change their name and at one point he didn't allow them to use their stadium because of political reasons.
I know you're not a Spaniard but you're an amateur football historian that's a Spanish speaker by birth so you've probably come across more information than most here on the subject, if not then you're able to google it at least if you wanted.
It's mostly guesswork though isn't it?
I'd like a thread or something clarifying what went on in the Franco era. I've heard and read different things. Ultimately that Franco wasn't big on football and if he had to choose a club it would be Atletico Madrid's because of it's ties to the military. But he shifted between clubs at his convenience as it was just a propaganda tool really.
What I know is that he used his powers in influencing the Di Stefano transfer. That's about the only thing I know about. Some people like to call him a Real Madrid fan but that he wasn't. They had to change their name and at one point he didn't allow them to use their stadium because of political reasons.
I know you're not a Spaniard but you're an amateur football historian that's a Spanish speaker by birth so you've probably come across more information than most here on the subject, if not then you're able to google it at least if you wanted.
It's mostly guesswork though isn't it?
I actually came across quite a bit on that. Posted a few snippets on the main thread. Will look it up when I have a PC handy.
Replying to Brwned on Didi v. Di Stéfano
I assumed you hadn't picked him because you were aware. The Madrid Circus can be traced all the way back to then.
The chagrin you see around here regarding sheikhs is the same that has gone on for non-Real fans in Spain ever since Franco decided RM would be the pride of Spain and his regime. There was no way he was having clubs from separatist regions having any glory.
Barca once had the temerity of winning the first leg of a Spanish Cup semifinal 2-1 or 3-1, Franco got on the case and, among other things, the visitors had a pre-game teamtalk by the military warning them to "behave themselves". By the end of the first half at the Bernabeu they had shipped eight.
This is not to say everything was rigged, Franco bought the way to success and even got Bernabeu to set up the European Cup so they could also conquer Europe. Unlimited funds + a dictator's wish to impress the world = the Galáctico syndrome starts.
So there goes Brazil and wins a World Cup and, by all accounts, Didi was the orchestrator of it all: sign him. No one cared where he was going to play or whether he fitted. Sounds familiar?
It is roughly around that time, that the dressing room Circus we know only too well starts. Real had formed a great side and they were very successful, but big stars kept arriving and having to be accommodated. Puskas got Kopa shunted to the wing, then Didi was supposed to be the orchestrator and Di Stéfano as well, or maybe move further up. Half baked stuff. Add to this Argie vs. Brazilian, obviously.
Di Stefano (and the old guard along with him) turned on him, then the fans followed. They disliked the fact Didi didn't get stuck in, the media pointed out he left the pitch with his kit in immaculate condition (to the point that after a while Didi himself chose to pick mud and rub it on his shirt so that his immaculate look didn't make the front pages).
You get the picture. Unfortunately for Didi, Di Stefano didn't make the World Cup in Chile. Didi had set it down as the time when they would meet each other and he would show him who was best. Shame, would have been a great game!
I assumed you hadn't picked him because you were aware. The Madrid Circus can be traced all the way back to then.
The chagrin you see around here regarding sheikhs is the same that has gone on for non-Real fans in Spain ever since Franco decided RM would be the pride of Spain and his regime. There was no way he was having clubs from separatist regions having any glory.
Barca once had the temerity of winning the first leg of a Spanish Cup semifinal 2-1 or 3-1, Franco got on the case and, among other things, the visitors had a pre-game teamtalk by the military warning them to "behave themselves". By the end of the first half at the Bernabeu they had shipped eight.
This is not to say everything was rigged, Franco bought the way to success and even got Bernabeu to set up the European Cup so they could also conquer Europe. Unlimited funds + a dictator's wish to impress the world = the Galáctico syndrome starts.
So there goes Brazil and wins a World Cup and, by all accounts, Didi was the orchestrator of it all: sign him. No one cared where he was going to play or whether he fitted. Sounds familiar?
It is roughly around that time, that the dressing room Circus we know only too well starts. Real had formed a great side and they were very successful, but big stars kept arriving and having to be accommodated. Puskas got Kopa shunted to the wing, then Didi was supposed to be the orchestrator and Di Stéfano as well, or maybe move further up. Half baked stuff. Add to this Argie vs. Brazilian, obviously.
Di Stefano (and the old guard along with him) turned on him, then the fans followed. They disliked the fact Didi didn't get stuck in, the media pointed out he left the pitch with his kit in immaculate condition (to the point that after a while Didi himself chose to pick mud and rub it on his shirt so that his immaculate look didn't make the front pages).
You get the picture. Unfortunately for Didi, Di Stefano didn't make the World Cup in Chile. Didi had set it down as the time when they would meet each other and he would show him who was best. Shame, would have been a great game!
Snow, delved into all that on Page 2 of the Di Stefano thread