All-time Fantasy Draft - Gio v antohan

[Gio]

So you're hammering Nordahl for scoring his goals in an era when there were more goals more game, yet during Erico's pomp (late 1930s) a typical average for the Argentine Primera was 5 goals per game - in effect double current standards.

The 'Vieri on steroids' description remains fair to me: him and Nordahl were both big, left-footed target men, while the Swede packed on an extra stone of muscle and bullied every defence he faced.

 

[antohan]

Fairly meaningless point when Redondo had Karembeu to rely on.

Not really, Karembeu was also there to provide width, Deschamps was mainly there to do the dirty work. It was just enough to keep it competitive, yet here you don't even have Deschamps and portray Davids as the man who will single-handedly recover enough ball for your fancy AMs.

 

[Fergus' son]

Yeah, have to say its very strange that David's alone is tasked with marshalling that midfield. With the quality of opponents out there even the best DMs (Rijkaard, Matthaus, Keane) would probably struggle to fulfill this role, never mind David's who isn't in that class and would have question marks surrounding his positional discipline in that role too. It's actually quite baffling why Gio didn't opt for a more solid midfielder ahead of any of the other four...

Anto gets my vote.

 

[antohan]

So you're hammering Nordahl for scoring his goals in an era when there were more goals more game, yet during Erico's pomp (late 1930s) a typical average for the Argentine Primera was 5 goals per game - in effect double current standards.

No, I establish a basis for assessing his record relative to Serie A strikers. As you agreed, the other top strikers in that Serie A no one has ever heard of, so the only means to assess it is to compare it with goalscoring records of other players we do know about through all-time Serie A scoring stats. At that point, in order for them to be comparable you have to allow for the fact defences shipped out more goals across the board. It's not that difficult.

We can't directly compare Erico to Nordahl as they were different leagues indeed, that's why I compare his record to those of his contemporaries, one of which happens to be on the pitch. Your man Moreno never managed to score even half as many goals as Erico. The top goalscorer in his side didn't manage to score half as many goals as Erico. It follows that Erico was quite something, doesn't it?

The 'Vieri on steroids' description remains fair to me: him and Nordahl were both big, left-footed target men, while the Swede packed on an extra stone of muscle and bullied every defence he faced.

I thought it was a good comparison regarding the type of player. The steroids implied he was better, which I don't think he was.

 

[Snow]

No one having heard of them is not an argument. I have never heard about Enrico or a lot of players here (which is why I'm not voting). You're taking it a bit too far though Anto. Merely stating facts.
Top 10 goalscorers in Argentina, 7 of them are from the same era as Enrico. That tells me that the era was leaking goal. You can't say the same for Nordahl. He's the 2nd highest goal scorer ever with the highest goalscorer having played in the same era as Enrico an almost twice as many games as Nordahl. 3rd on the list is Totti, 4th is Meazza. Sama era as Enrico.

For me it's really hard to take the WW2 era seriously at all. There are a bunch of records that are still standing since then. I also have my doubt on their accuracy. That whole time was a clusterfeck.

 

[Theon]

This score is harsh on Gio, don't think there is much in it at all.

 

[Polaroid]

There's no reality distortion at all. Everything I wrote is out there on the internet, people just won't go out and find out so I put it together.

I didn't just say defenders were rubbish, I pointed out defences across the entire Serie A shipped 50% more goals in his pomp than they did for the next three decades (to any striker, not just Nordahl). I think that is relevant in assessing his record. How is it not relevant?

I'm just providing a basis for accurately assessing a player few will have seen. Was he good? By all means. But Gio's description of "Vieri on steroids" is way off the mark. In fact, if he didn't go for that I probably wouldn't have bothered.

I would not call "poor man's Vieri" an accurate assessment of Nordahl, not remotely near. Nordahl has precisely the attributes that your centrebacks would not enjoy playing against.
Also, it is not true that Gio has no width, not with Rivaldo and Demyaneko on his left flank. His team's width may be less than optimal yes but he is not entirely without.
What swayed my vote to your team was the balance in your midfield relative to Gio's

He could be a DM in a two (e.g. where Effenberg is) or a right back. I think right back is safest, his defensive record is superb and one of the few things there is also footage that can be drawn upon.

He had all the attributes for a modern rightback or wingback, while I think the game has evolved significantly in central midfield. I think it would be very very hard to get away with a central midfielder pre-70s except for a few token ones, let alone pre-war when there wasn't really a midfield per se but more a case of two 5-a-side pitches either side of the halfway line.

Andrade was called the Black Marvel for pretty much being the first not to punt it over but to venture from one to the other with ball at feet, creating havoc, but the way central midfields work today would be completely alien to him.

The reason he could venture across was he was an exceptional dribbler and passer, he had the confidence he could either attack space or take a man on and create a numerical advantage, while having the recovery pace to run back and cover if things went awry. That's precisely what you want from a modern fullback!

He has not played fullback before though. Of course you could argue that you believe he has the right attributes to succeed as a modern fullback but nevertheless you could save yourself the argument by picking up someone like D Santos, Carlos Alberto or Thuram in the later rounds

 

[antohan]

No one having heard of them is not an argument.

I know it isn't, which is why I provide a basis to make his record somewhat comparable to other players to have graced Serie A. Effectively, someone scoring 30 in Nordahl's day is equivalent to someone scoring 18 in the 60s, 70s and 80s, which is still bloody good.

Top 10 goalscorers in Argentina, 7 of them are from the same era as Erico. That tells me that the era was leaking goal.

Undisputed, which is why I don't go around saying Erico was a 1.5 per game striker, but rather, I compare him to his contemporaries. Gio has one of them, he is playing, he is supposed to be the dog's bollocks and coming from one of River's most talked about frontlines, yet Moreno, Labruna and Pedernera jointly just about scored as many as Erico.

One reason those old records still stand and will continue to stand in Argentina is players no longer spend their entire careers there. That's why I also don't go around saying that him being the top goalscorer ever makes him better than Batistuta. Although arguably he was according to those who saw him. Different type of centreforward though so let's not even go there.

You can't say the same for Nordahl. He's the 2nd highest goal scorer ever with the highest goalscorer having played in the same era as Enrico an almost twice as many games as Nordahl. 3rd on the list is Totti, 4th is Meazza.

As I said, part of it is players in the 60s, 70s and 80s played a lot less games, against better defences. If I'm not mistaken, Hamrin, another stats animal from the 50s is 6th in the all-time list. He was a winger.

BTW, I think Totti is first by now, which obviously doesn't make him the best striker in Serie A history. In fact, he wasn't even drafted, nor was Vieri.

I can see the advantage of picking a Swede with similar characteristics to Vieri and an awesome scoring record. Just don't make him out to be Vieri on steroids, because he wasn't.

 

[Danny1982]

Does the winner get to pick a player from the losing side?

 

[antohan]

I would not call "poor man's Vieri" an accurate assessment of Nordahl, not remotely near.

Poor man's was somewhat OTT. Although Vieri managed a 1 in 1 record three different years in two different leagues. He also played in proper international tournaments against quality opposition and got the Silver Ball at the 1998 World Cup playing for a notoriously boring and ultra-defensive side. I rate him higher. I can see why Nordahl would be easier to pick given the nationality constraint, but don't go around selling him as better than Vieri.

Nordahl has precisely the attributes that your centrebacks would not enjoy playing against.

I do trust Rio and Vasovic to hold their own. There's pretty much no width on the right, so no crosses there. From the right possibly, if Gio can get Rivaldo to focus there, and Davids gets enough balls recovered in midfield all by himself for those occasional crosses to be a worry.

You have to remember I have Rijkaard, a Euro and CL winning CB of the "tough" type you apparently are required to have around even with top quality centre-halves. He can deal with Nordahl in corners and other set pieces.

In fact, Vasovic being the total footballer he was, and indeed an occasional sweeper/DM/CM, IF Nordahl were a regular headache they could swap. I just don't think it would be necessary, at all.

He has not played fullback before though. Of course you could argue that you believe he has the right attributes to succeed as a modern fullback but nevertheless you could save yourself the argument by picking up someone like D Santos, Carlos Alberto or Thuram in the later rounds

Seeing as his main defensive responsibility is the left winger, cutting off the supply to the inside left, and covering the centre-half when beaten, I would argue he is much more a modern fullback than some of the ones being fielded for other teams, even before going into attributes.

I do see further down the line people will start crying out for the Santos, Cafú's and Alberto's of this world. But then, I would never play D.Santos ahead of him (nothing much going forward) and the other two, while hugely popular, would not be worth benching a Pelé or Ronaldo for.

 

[antohan]

Does the winner get to pick a player from the losing side?

No, all eliminated players go to a pool and the winners get to pick from it one at a time. After the quarter final round you do pick from the beaten team.

 

[Danny1982]

No, all eliminated players go to a pool and the winners get to pick from it one at a time. After the quarter final round you do pick from the beaten team.

Oh ok, because I figured if you pick up Xavi after this matchup your team will be pretty hard to beat..

 

[antohan]

Oh ok, because I figured if you pick up Xavi after this matchup your team will be pretty hard to beat..

I would happily swap him for Fabregas on the bench. Right now, I prefer the flexibility/fluidity Iniesta provides for my style of play.

As more monster AMs become available Xavi would be the better one to have around though, I agree.

 

[Danny1982]

I would happily swap him for Fabregas on the bench. Right now, I prefer the flexibility/fluidity Iniesta provides for my style of play.

As more monster AMs become available Xavi would be the better one to have around though, I agree.

I was thinking Xavi with Iniesta (together, with Xavi replacing Effenberg), because it's a proven partnership that not many would vote against.

 

[paceme]

They are both Spanish. Not allowed.

 

[paceme]

Anto takes about 2000 words to say 'my players are better'

 

[Gio]

Yeah, have to say its very strange that David's alone is tasked with marshalling that midfield. With the quality of opponents out there even the best DMs (Rijkaard, Matthaus, Keane) would probably struggle to fulfill this role, never mind David's who isn't in that class and would have question marks surrounding his positional discipline in that role too. It's actually quite baffling why Gio didn't opt for a more solid midfielder ahead of any of the other four...

Anto gets my vote.

It appears my appreciation of Davids isn't the same as the Caf's. For me him and Keane are the best box-to-box midfielders since Matthaus. His domination of midfields at Ajax, Juventus, Holland and latterly Barcelona (even when he was past his best) was a consistent feature of European football during his and Keane's era. At the 1998 World Cup, he ran the midfield in the second round against Yugoslavia (scoring an injury time winner), against Argentina in a superb quarter final, and again against Brazil in a semi-final the Dutch lost because of profligacy in front of goal (and the creative brilliance of Rivaldo from the left). At Euro 2000, more of the same at the business end of the tournament.

Alongside him I've got the best pure central midfielder since Matthaus in Xavi. His invariable domination of midfield is taken for granted during the last six years and he has been the hub of perhaps the greatest club and national midfield of all time. The contrast in the collective level of performance when he's not been on the park for Spain for example (a number of humpings in friendlies) has been stark. His energy is legendary and he's invariably the player who covers the most distance on the park. Used to playing alongside Toure, Busquets or Alonso, Davids is a step up in defensive quality and robustness so any concerns about balance are baseless IMO.

The third member of the triumvirate is Michel Platini: the best player on the park and whose prime (3 consecutive Ballon D'Ors) outstrips almost any other player in the draft. What he produced at Euro 1984 has only been matched at a major tournament by Maradona in Mexico during the last 40 years. He's just as capable as a playmaker conjuring from deep as he is off a striker and, frankly, he regularly did both.

I know I'm pissing in the wind here, but there's no way a midfield of that three, alongside the efforts of Rivaldo and Juan Manuel Moreno - both the best in the world at their peaks - would get outplayed or overpowered.

 

[paceme]

Platini will do his share of ball winning tbf, and Xavi is just as relentless a presser as Iniesta.

 

[Moby]

When you mention the 3 consecutive Ballon D'ors, you should also mention that only Europeans were allowed to be nominated for it. Otherwise there is no way that Platini would have 3 and Maradona has none when they played around more or less the same time.

 

[Danny1982]

They are both Spanish. Not allowed.

Oh, didn't know that..

 

[Cantona'sCollar]

Gio has a vastly better back 5 for me, while the rest of the team is fairly even with Antohan's, but for me the winning combination is Platini/Rivaldo, which beats the Henry/Laudrop combo for me, compensating for the said back 5. Not sure really, but voted for Gio. Tightest one for me so far I think.

 

[antohan]

What the hell happened here while I was away?

Platini doing enough defensively to make up for Effenberg's shift? Yeah, right.

Or is it Gio bigging up Davids? Do you genuinely see him recovering enough of the ball to feed the others?

I'm extremely solid across the back, the flanks are safe (what's the point of a Vieri with little chance to cross to him?), the middle of the park is congested and I have four exceptional defenders and midfielders killing off anything Gio could concoct with his central clusterfeck.

Conversely, I have a genuine clear threat through Iniesta-Laudrup-Henry leaving Davids chasing shadows, and Erico to kill the move off.

PLUS Rivelino ready to come on any time, while Gio can only bring on a right back or a left winger. He has no Plan B whatsoever, and Plan A is not going to work.

 

[paceme]

I hope you are not implying that I said Platini will do as much as Effenberg defensively? I doubt any midfield could completely shut down Gio's creators tbh, especially not with the system you're playing. You haven't actually noted how the team is set up to stop Platini and co, you seem to have just banged on about your players being good enough to do it.

 

[paceme]

Not that it matters with the votes the way they are

 

[antohan]

I hope you are not implying that I said Platini will do as much as Effenberg defensively? I doubt any midfield could completely shut down Gio's creators tbh, especially not with the system you're playing. You haven't actually noted how the team is set up to stop Platini and co, you seem to have just banged on about your players being good enough to do it.

No major danger down the flanks. Actually none at all on the left flank, so both fullbacks tuck in making it a pretty impenetrable concrete wall down that centre he is mostly going to try play through. No actual space for Platini/Rivaldo/Moreno to do much while squeezed between that and Rijkaard-Effenberg and Iniesta (mostly on Xavi, mind). Whatever balls get up there I'll recover continuously, can't see much of a threat really.

The transition through Effenberg's through balls, Iniesta linking up with Laudrup or through the fullbacks is pretty clear. Where exactly is Gio's description of how he will stop my guys with the one proper ball winner? He will be knackered, he had a great workrate, but will be exhausted doing it all alone.

 

[antohan]

Not that it matters with the votes the way they are

Well, he's got 6 in a row with no reply. I guess with transfer deadline day on there will be a lot of transfer muppets drooling over the fancy names and not really putting any thinking into whether it works or not.

Screw it, time to bring on Roberto!

 

[Theon]

Who is stopping Platini? If Rijkaard is in the midfield battle with Davids/Xavi, then Platini will have opportunity to drift and find space unmarked. If Rijkaard is sitting deeper and screening the defence then the threat of Platini is countered, but the contest in centre mid is much more even, probably even tilted towards Gio.

 

[paceme]

No major danger down the flanks. Actually none at all on the left flank, so both fullbacks tuck in making it a pretty impenetrable concrete wall down that centre he is mostly going to try play through. No actual space for Platini/Rivaldo/Moreno to do much while squeezed between that and Rijkaard-Effenberg and Iniesta (mostly on Xavi, mind). Whatever balls get up there I'll recover continuously, can't see much of a threat really.

The transition through Effenberg's through balls, Iniesta linking up with Laudrup or through the fullbacks is pretty clear. Where exactly is Gio's description of how he will stop my guys with the one proper ball winner? He will be knackered, he had a great workrate, but will be exhausted doing it all alone.

He hasn't given one really. I was picking up on your perceived confidence and found it somewhat annoying. You could equally say that you have little width, if you try and fix this by bombing both full backs forward then what are you going to do to resist the counter which will surely come with passers like Xavi and Rivaldo? But I could say the same about Gio's team tbh!

 

[Gio]

anything Gio could concoct with his central clusterfeck.

This is a myth. Your midfield and attack was set out narrower than mine. How my midfield five - all in their natural positions and naturally going to link up well - is a clusterfeck whereas your set-up is a free-flowing exhibition just doesn't fit well with me.

It's difficult to see where your attacking threat will come from. Kohler has the ability to nullify Henry - he did it with the likes of Van Basten often enough - and Neil Franklin is one of England's three greatest centre-halves ("the best I ever played with or against", said Tom Finney. "Blistering pace" said Stanley Matthews) so will provide plenty of cover should either him or Laudrup get a sniff. Gentile can support as well if he gets bored dealing with Rivelino.

As previously said, I'm not convinced you've got the physicality to deal with Nordahl. Feel free to move Rijkaard back, but then you've got Vasovic and Effenberg desperately trying to hold that midfield.

 

[antohan]

Who is stopping Platini? If Rijkaard is in the midfield battle with Davids/Xavi, then Platini will have opportunity to drift and find space unmarked. If Rijkaard is sitting deeper and screening the defence then the threat of Platini is countered, but the contest in centre mid is much more even, probably even tilted towards Gio.

Why the hell would Rijkaard be in a midfield battle with Davids? What for? Davids is chasing Iniesta, Laudrup and Rivelino for god's sake. And he is all alone bar Xavi. How on earth is that a better defensive setup than Rijkaard-Effenberg and a much superior back four encroaching on three rather central creators completely starved of the ball?????

 

[antohan]

He hasn't given one really. I was picking up on your perceived confidence and found it somewhat annoying. You could equally say that you have little width, if you try and fix this by bombing both full backs forward then what are you going to do to resist the counter which will surely come with passers like Xavi and Rivaldo? But I could say the same about Gio's team tbh!

Rivelino, Iniesta and Laudrup are extremely comfortable anywhere across the frontline. Facchetti faces no real threat from a fullback like Gentile, so he can happily bomb forward. Andrade will likely not bomb forward but put in early passes/crosses from deep.

I grew up as an Argentinian kid, but with a Brazilian as my idol. His name? Rivelino. Everyone talked about Pelé, and I take my hat off, great player, but I didn't care what Pelé was doing, my eyes were all for Rivelino on the other side of the pitch. His left foot, his elegance, his rebelliousness... He was everything I wanted to be as a player. His dribbling was flawless, his passes perfect, and his shots unstoppable. And he did everything with his left foot. It didn’t matter if his right foot was only good to stand on, because there was nothing he couldn’t do with his left. To me it was beautiful.

From more than hundred goals that I scored I'm sure that over 50 were assisted by Michael. To play with him was extremely easy. We found each other by intuition on the field and found common football language. Look at Ivan Zamorano. Laudrup went there (Real) and Zamorano is a goalscorer. Sometimes I envy Ivan for the passes he receives. Passes on foot after you accelerated. Few people understand football like the Danish player. He can only be comprised with Maradona, Schuster or Roberto Baggio. They make things easy and find the right solutions. For them is simple, for the opponent - unthinkable. Phenomenal!

 

[antohan]

As previously said, I'm not convinced you've got the physicality to deal with Nordahl. Feel free to move Rijkaard back, but then you've got Vasovic and Effenberg desperately trying to hold that midfield.

Gotta go again, but as I said earlier, he will deal with him in any set pieces and I'm not majorly concerned about crosses with your men and my fullbacks.

 

[Theon]

Why the hell would Rijkaard be in a midfield battle with Davids? What for? Davids is chasing Iniesta, Laudrup and Rivelino for god's sake. And he is all alone bar Xavi. How on earth is that a better defensive setup than Rijkaard-Effenberg and a much superior back four encroaching on three rather central creators completely starved of the ball?????

Calm yourself down.

If Rikaard is deeper with Platini then I have no idea how you think Gio's central midfield will be dominated. Davids/Xavi is far better than Effenberg/Iniesta.

No, Davids isn't chasing Rivelino who is playing on the left wing ffs. Gentile has him adequately covered, leaving Davids to focus on the midfield.

Quite ridiculous that you try and portray Davids as being preoccupied with Rivelino, but not Effenberg with Rivaldo..

 

[Gio]

a much superior back four

Again I'm not seeing this. The strongest centre-half is Kohler, although Ferdinand isn't that far behind, but he's got a comparable player - both stylistically and in terms of quality - in Franklin. Facchetti, yes an excellent full-back who moved forward to good effect. But he's dealing with Moreno, the best player in the world during the 1940s. What's most important is the balance in the back four and I've got that in spades - 2 aggressive lead defenders in Kohler and Gentile, 2 slicker, ball-playing defenders in Demyanenko and Franklin. Whereas I'd be more concerned with the duplication of qualities and weaknesses of Ferdinand and Vasovic.

 

[NM]

I love how aggressive antohan gets in these threads. Have Theon and Antohan ever had a draft game?

 

[Cutch]

I think i'd have to take the week off work if i was ever to play Anto. It must be exhausting

 

[Fergus' son]

It appears my appreciation of Davids isn't the same as the Caf's. For me him and Keane are the best box-to-box midfielders since Matthaus. His domination of midfields at Ajax, Juventus, Holland and latterly Barcelona (even when he was past his best) was a consistent feature of European football during his and Keane's era. At the 1998 World Cup, he ran the midfield in the second round against Yugoslavia (scoring an injury time winner), against Argentina in a superb quarter final, and again against Brazil in a semi-final the Dutch lost because of profligacy in front of goal (and the creative brilliance of Rivaldo from the left). At Euro 2000, more of the same at the business end of the tournament.

Alongside him I've got the best pure central midfielder since Matthaus in Xavi. His invariable domination of midfield is taken for granted during the last six years and he has been the hub of perhaps the greatest club and national midfield of all time. The contrast in the collective level of performance when he's not been on the park for Spain for example (a number of humpings in friendlies) has been stark. His energy is legendary and he's invariably the player who covers the most distance on the park. Used to playing alongside Toure, Busquets or Alonso, Davids is a step up in defensive quality and robustness so any concerns about balance are baseless IMO.

The third member of the triumvirate is Michel Platini: the best player on the park and whose prime (3 consecutive Ballon D'Ors) outstrips almost any other player in the draft. What he produced at Euro 1984 has only been matched at a major tournament by Maradona in Mexico during the last 40 years. He's just as capable as a playmaker conjuring from deep as he is off a striker and, frankly, he regularly did both.

I know I'm pissing in the wind here, but there's no way a midfield of that three, alongside the efforts of Rivaldo and Juan Manuel Moreno - both the best in the world at their peaks - would get outplayed or overpowered.

Yeah, I'v never really took in Davids' quality to it fullest for some reason but I think when you describe him as box to box it kind of illustrates my issue with the midfield. He represent the most steel in your midfield yet even he is at his best going forward half the time, perhaps someone with more positional discipline would have been suited. It's a cliche but more of a Makeleke type, who could just sit and allow the other midfielders to dictate the game.

Again, this is only relevant in the context of this game, against this opposition. If a club or nation had yur midfield going into any competition they would be delighted!

Calm yourself down.

If Rikaard is deeper with Platini then I have no idea how you think Gio's central midfield will be dominated. Davids/Xavi is far better than Effenberg/Iniesta.

No, Davids isn't chasing Rivelino who is playing on the left wing ffs. Gentile has him adequately covered, leaving Davids to focus on the midfield.

Quite ridiculous that you try and portray Davids as being preoccupied with Rivelino, but not Effenberg with Rivaldo..

Interesting points, this is close..

 

[antohan]

Calm yourself down.

If Rikaard is deeper with Platini then I have no idea how you think Gio's central midfield will be dominated. Davids/Xavi is far better than Effenberg/Iniesta.

No, Davids isn't chasing Rivelino who is playing on the left wing ffs. Gentile has him adequately covered, leaving Davids to focus on the midfield.

You seem to be completely overlooking the fact both my fullbacks carry an attacking threat while only one of Gio's does.

If Gentile has Rivelino adequately covered, who on earth is onto Facchetti? This is a cracking attacking fullback who was a primary attacking outlet for an all-conquering Inter side, managed to score in double figures one season (1 in 3) and scored 50% more career goals than Davids ever did, in less games.

I assume then the idea is Xavi is actually taking care of Rivelino (good luck with that) and Platini is tracking Iniesta (good luck with that too) while Davids looks after Laudrup (win some, lose some)?

On the other hand, since I have no rightback to worry about at all, Facchetti's onto Moreno, Andrade or Ferdinand onto Rivaldo subject to where he decides to play and Rijkaard onto Platini.

That worst case scenario you depict of Effenberg and Iniesta dealing with Xavi and Davids is fine by me, doesn't sound like imminent danger if all bases are covered in front of them, does it? Xavi is a less tricky player to mark than Iniesta, particularly with his passing options taken good care of, and Effenberg having to deal with Davids is not a game-deciding contest in any shape or form, the guy is not exactly a free-scoring midfielder and anyone he can link up with is taken care of so Effenberg is more than enough, and more often than not will not even bother with him and will be more focused on keeping things tight on Rivaldo.

Is it only me that sees that one recognised midfield ball winner is not enough to stop Iniesta, Rivelino and Laudrup when appropriately supported by players like Facchetti and Andrade on the wings?

 

[Polaroid]

A tighter contest now, which is a more accurate reflection of how close and even these two sides are

 

[Gio]

You seem to be completely overlooking the fact both my fullbacks carry an attacking threat while only one of Gio's does.

Be my guest. You'd better bank on scoring every time you go forward as this set-up looks like the worst gung-ho excesses of Kevin Keegan's Newcastle reign. And when we recover possession - which we're very likely to do given our solid shape, defensive discipline and high-energy pressing - the opportunities for counter-attacking football are immense. There is oceans of space down the flanks and in Xavi, Platini, Rivaldo and Franklin, we've got the passing ability to exploit it.

As for any threat Facchetti poses, Jose Manuel Moreno is quite comfortable dropping back into midfield to support the defensive effort as he did regularly for the great River team of the 1940s. And if Facchetti does want to leave him then I daresay Moreno - one of the greatest footballers of all time, in the same bracket as Maradona and Di Stefano - poses a greater attacking threat.

I'm not buying the "fill your midfield up with rugged ball-winners" idea either. We've got a perfect balance between energetic, defensive vigour in Davids, a pure central midfielder in Xavi, with Platini at the apex of the three, supporting, prodding and prompting as required. How many rugged ball-winners did United's great '99 midfield have, or Barcelona 2008-2013, Spain 2008-2013, Germany 2010-2013? The way to set out a 4-2-3-1 is for one of your 2 central midfielders to excel in putting out fires (Davids) and the other to be a creative, energetic and positionally disciplined presence, exactly like Xavi.