Gio said:
Team Gio
Team Antohan
Team Antohan
antohan said:
antohan said:
All-time Fantasy Draft - Gio v antohan
- Thread starter Brwned
- Start date
Erico vs. Nordahl
There's a world of difference between the two, despite Gio selling Nordahl as the best thing since sliced bread and "Christian Vieri on steroids".
Firstly, he will tell you Erico never played for Paraguay. True, he couldn't, as foreign-based players were banned, and he opted not to play for Argentina despite being offered ridiculous sums to do so. He will also tell you Nordahl scored 43 goals in his 33 caps.
Let's look at that. Firstly, they were all friendly games (+a very rubbish post-war Olympic tourno). In 11 of those games he didn't score at all, which implies he freescored in others. Indeed, he racked up 15 of those goals in four games against Norway, aggregate score 24-5. Another eight goals were scored against Denmark and four against Hungary in 1943 (god knows what those war-time games looked like). He also scored 3 in a 7-0 drubbing of Finland and 4 in a 12-0 drubbing of South Korea. All in all, there's nothing to read into it.
He will also tell you that until recently he was the highest ever goalscorer in Serie A, five-time top scorer, averaging just under one goal per game at his peak.
What you are not told is Serie A used to have 20 teams then (38 games), when for most of the 60s, 70s and 80s it had 16 (30 games). That's one reason you find so many 50s top scorers ever there. Just look at the chaps who contested and sometimes beat him to top scorer: Istvan Nyers, who wouldn't get a look in for Hungary, and John Hansen, some Danish chap with 8 caps.
The other reason is Italian defences were rubbish. Seriously, Herrera only brought in Catenaccio in the 60s. Let's ignore number of games and Nordahl specifically. During his best years there were 3 goals per game, on average in Serie A, while in the 60s, 70s and 80s the average was 2 per game. So if we adjust for that, Nordahl's record is less than two every three games. That is worse than Vieri. He is no Vieri on steroids, not even Vieri, but a poor man's Christian Vieri.
What about Erico? How do we assess his 90 goals in 64 games that landed Independiente two consecutive titles? Well, Gio has the answer again: José Manuel Moreno. He will tell you how that giant of football played in one of the most devastating attacks in history "La Máquina de River".
The great thing is they both come from the same era, same league, facing the same defences. Moreno's top scoring season with La Máquina saw him score 17 goals. Of course, he wasn't only about goals but assists, so let's look at that side's top scorer: Labruna with 23, and then there's also Pedernera with 10. That's 50 goals, assuming they were all scored or assisted by Moreno, which is unlikely as the other two guys from La Máquina were primarily there to assist (e.g. it took Muñoz 11 years at River to reach 40 goals).
Erico scored 47 goals, all by himself, in one single season. Don't have assists stats, but that in itself is as productive as the entire fabled 5-man "La Máquina". Further, in 1938 a ciggie brand ("43") offered prize money to anyone scoring 43 goals. With the league won and Erico already on 43, he drew blanks for two games to collect the prize money.
Unfortunate, as after some feverish recalculations and rebound analysis from River fans, Labruna has been recognised as joint top ever Argentinian League scorer... in twice as many games.
Erico was a beast, absolutely unplayable, and that's why you don't hear anyone saying Gunnar Nordahl was the best, yet you find one who has seen and played along with some of the greatest legends in the game suggesting he was just that:
There's a world of difference between the two, despite Gio selling Nordahl as the best thing since sliced bread and "Christian Vieri on steroids".
Firstly, he will tell you Erico never played for Paraguay. True, he couldn't, as foreign-based players were banned, and he opted not to play for Argentina despite being offered ridiculous sums to do so. He will also tell you Nordahl scored 43 goals in his 33 caps.
Let's look at that. Firstly, they were all friendly games (+a very rubbish post-war Olympic tourno). In 11 of those games he didn't score at all, which implies he freescored in others. Indeed, he racked up 15 of those goals in four games against Norway, aggregate score 24-5. Another eight goals were scored against Denmark and four against Hungary in 1943 (god knows what those war-time games looked like). He also scored 3 in a 7-0 drubbing of Finland and 4 in a 12-0 drubbing of South Korea. All in all, there's nothing to read into it.
He will also tell you that until recently he was the highest ever goalscorer in Serie A, five-time top scorer, averaging just under one goal per game at his peak.
What you are not told is Serie A used to have 20 teams then (38 games), when for most of the 60s, 70s and 80s it had 16 (30 games). That's one reason you find so many 50s top scorers ever there. Just look at the chaps who contested and sometimes beat him to top scorer: Istvan Nyers, who wouldn't get a look in for Hungary, and John Hansen, some Danish chap with 8 caps.
The other reason is Italian defences were rubbish. Seriously, Herrera only brought in Catenaccio in the 60s. Let's ignore number of games and Nordahl specifically. During his best years there were 3 goals per game, on average in Serie A, while in the 60s, 70s and 80s the average was 2 per game. So if we adjust for that, Nordahl's record is less than two every three games. That is worse than Vieri. He is no Vieri on steroids, not even Vieri, but a poor man's Christian Vieri.
What about Erico? How do we assess his 90 goals in 64 games that landed Independiente two consecutive titles? Well, Gio has the answer again: José Manuel Moreno. He will tell you how that giant of football played in one of the most devastating attacks in history "La Máquina de River".
The great thing is they both come from the same era, same league, facing the same defences. Moreno's top scoring season with La Máquina saw him score 17 goals. Of course, he wasn't only about goals but assists, so let's look at that side's top scorer: Labruna with 23, and then there's also Pedernera with 10. That's 50 goals, assuming they were all scored or assisted by Moreno, which is unlikely as the other two guys from La Máquina were primarily there to assist (e.g. it took Muñoz 11 years at River to reach 40 goals).
Erico scored 47 goals, all by himself, in one single season. Don't have assists stats, but that in itself is as productive as the entire fabled 5-man "La Máquina". Further, in 1938 a ciggie brand ("43") offered prize money to anyone scoring 43 goals. With the league won and Erico already on 43, he drew blanks for two games to collect the prize money.
Unfortunate, as after some feverish recalculations and rebound analysis from River fans, Labruna has been recognised as joint top ever Argentinian League scorer... in twice as many games.
Erico was a beast, absolutely unplayable, and that's why you don't hear anyone saying Gunnar Nordahl was the best, yet you find one who has seen and played along with some of the greatest legends in the game suggesting he was just that:
Alfredo Di Stéfano said:
The other chap you probably don't know
JOSÉ LEANDRO ANDRADE
The first international football superstar. Yes, you never heard of him, others think differently:
The Black Marvel, as the French baptised him was the fulcrum for a dominant Uruguay side which picked up two Olympic Golds, the first World Cup and three Copa Américas.
JOSÉ LEANDRO ANDRADE
The first international football superstar. Yes, you never heard of him, others think differently:
- IFFHS Football Player of the Century: 29th
- France Football's World Cup Top-100 1930–1990:10th
The Black Marvel, as the French baptised him was the fulcrum for a dominant Uruguay side which picked up two Olympic Golds, the first World Cup and three Copa Américas.
- 1924 final, against a free-scoring Switzerland. Their star player, Abegglen was the tournament top scorer so far. He operated at inside left, Andrade shut him out: 3-0.
- 1928 final, against eternal rivals Argentina. Top scorer of the tournament Tarasconi, inside left, shut out. 1-1 and 2-1 (no ET or penos then), both Argentine goals came from the other flank.
- 1930 final, again against Argentina, who had the tournos top scorer again (Stábile was a CF though). Andrade was man of the match keeping Uruguay in the game while still 2-1 down with a fantastic covering interception on Stábile and also at 2-2. Both goals scored from the left flank again.
...
Did I make a mistake here?!
Did I make a mistake here?!
I'm not particularly keen on the idea of assistant managers being able to vote, otherwise I may start a recruitment campaign for a Sam Allardyce-esque backroom staff.
Yeah Aldo's vote shouldn't count, same way mine with NM shouldn't.
Why not??? I disagree.
Fair enough, but I've lost count of how many assistants were floating around. In any case Gio, it shouldn't matter.
- You have a bunch of central creative options stuck in a "magic square of death"
(Ferdinand-Vasovic-Rijkaard-Effenberg).
- I'm playing expansive football with a bunch of players who come from a similar footballing ethos (Ajax-Crujff-Barca): Rijkaard, Iniesta, Laudrup, and Henry being in that mould.
- My fullbacks are better.
- My striker is miles better.
- My bench can make a significant impact once legs start tiring...
Because it's unfair? He's effectively voting for himself, same way any other assistant would. Automatically puts Gio 1-0 down.I thought that would've went without saying!
On topic, Effenberg is one of my most hated players!
And what if a manager had an assistant on the sly? How can you say that this team can't have so-and-so vote but not use the same rule across the pond?
That said, I won the 70's draft without an assistant or even casting a vote for myself!
There's also a case for it being Gio's problem that he didn't share the joy of drafting and competing with someone else. But I do agree it can get silly pretty quickly, NM had another assistant as well, didn't he?
Yeah, you still owe me that vote! You promised it in the middle of that bravado while flying ahead, then didn't follow up on it
Yeah but only for the beginning then he dropped out, plus he was a newb so couldn't vote anyway.
I haven't got time to respond to most of the Nordahl v Erico post, much of it bollocks to be fair, but I'll pick out some key points.
The arguments here are exactly the same as you'd hear from any post-1992 muppet shouting "modern football is great, old-school football is shite" - and that's certainly what you're not.
Criticising Nordahl's international goal record because most of the goals came in friendlies? Well that's par for the course in an era when friendlies constituted the bulk of the diet of any international footballer, when friendlies weren't glorified, revenue-generating kickabouts but proper clashes between different countries. Nordahl's international record would look even more impressive had he not been banned on moving to Milan, before which he still found time to win the 1948 Olympics with Sweden (again when it was a proper tournament).
Nordahl was Serie A top scorer 5 times. Only two strikers have beaten that in the history of Europe's big three leagues, Jimmy Greaves and Telmo Zarra. Citing other strikers who scored a few during that time is no different from me downplaying Henry's achievements in the Premiership, by stating he was competing with nobodies like Marcus Stewart, Michael Bridges, James Beattie and Kevin Phillips.
Ultimately Nordahl was a machine - a monster of a striker who would physically dominate your central defenders-cum-sweepers - who prove himself wherever he was tested, be it the Swedish League, Serie A or international football.
The arguments here are exactly the same as you'd hear from any post-1992 muppet shouting "modern football is great, old-school football is shite" - and that's certainly what you're not.
Criticising Nordahl's international goal record because most of the goals came in friendlies? Well that's par for the course in an era when friendlies constituted the bulk of the diet of any international footballer, when friendlies weren't glorified, revenue-generating kickabouts but proper clashes between different countries. Nordahl's international record would look even more impressive had he not been banned on moving to Milan, before which he still found time to win the 1948 Olympics with Sweden (again when it was a proper tournament).
Nordahl was Serie A top scorer 5 times. Only two strikers have beaten that in the history of Europe's big three leagues, Jimmy Greaves and Telmo Zarra. Citing other strikers who scored a few during that time is no different from me downplaying Henry's achievements in the Premiership, by stating he was competing with nobodies like Marcus Stewart, Michael Bridges, James Beattie and Kevin Phillips.
Ultimately Nordahl was a machine - a monster of a striker who would physically dominate your central defenders-cum-sweepers - who prove himself wherever he was tested, be it the Swedish League, Serie A or international football.
I couldn't stand him either, because I didn't enjoy playing against him. But he was a quality player who will be placing some marvellous balls for my attacking players.
Another redeeming feature is he didn't get on at all with that other cnut Matthaus. As club captain he was once called up by Bayern's Board. One of the players had punched Matthaus, so they asked him what he thought was the appropriate action:
"Give him a payrise".
The way I see it panning out:
- My midfield five exert their dominance on the match thanks to their collective passing ability, energy and complementarity. At this elevated level, Effenberg is a passenger that cannot be afforded.
- Nordahl bullies Vasovic and to a lesser extent Ferdinand. No no-nonsense centre-half available to cancel out the Swedish colossus.
- Kohler and Franklin are a perfectly complementary pair. They possess the combination of qualities to nullify Erico. Gentile sorts out Henry like he's done to fair greater players in the past, forcing Henry to dip into a midfield battle alien to his natural game.
That's not the case. I'm providing ample proof that Serie A was not all that in the 50s. Anyone with any knowledge of the history of the game will know the Italian art of defending started with Helenio Herrera, at Inter, in the 60s. It is also true that most players in the next three decades had 8 games less per season, say 80 over their career, that makes it much harder for others to surpass his goalscoring record. It's not muppet stuff, it's common sense once you are aware of it.
He played against tripe, cannon fodder, scoring 5 in a 10-0 drubbing of Norway means sweet FA in my book. I'm not saying he is Heskey, but he is not the Vieri on steroids you describe.
South Korea lost 12-0 against them in the quarters. How good a standard do you reckon that post-war tournament had? Roster: 1. Sweden, 2. Yugoslavia, 3. Denmark
The ones I listed were those who got it when he didn't, or who came within a few goals of beating him to it. I didn't pick the likes of Marcus Stewart or Kevin Phillips, I picked what would have been the Ruud van Nistelrooy to my Henry, and they were rather poor unheard of players who couldn't even make the bench for their countries. In fact, the only other time people ever heard of that John Hansen fellow was freescoring in the same Olympics tournament.
I recruited Aldo as a newb Assistant as well, his vote was never on the cards but then he got promoted. Not my fault or his really, certainly nothing sly/seedy about it.
Yeah of course, never said there was anything sly about it, same with me and NM.
I'm leaning toward Gios side at the moment, only thing to have stopped me voting already is I'm questioning wether David's alone is enough to anchor the midfield...?
I like the construction of Gios defence, whilst looking at it simplistically Ferdinand and Vasovic doesn't make sense.
I was surprised to see Iniesta not on the left and Laudrup not in the middle.
I know little about Erico s can't comment on wether he was better than Nordahl or not but I'm not buying Antohan's attempts to discredit the Swede.
Moreno vs Fachetti could be very interesting, how do the managers see that panning out?
I like the construction of Gios defence, whilst looking at it simplistically Ferdinand and Vasovic doesn't make sense.
I was surprised to see Iniesta not on the left and Laudrup not in the middle.
I know little about Erico s can't comment on wether he was better than Nordahl or not but I'm not buying Antohan's attempts to discredit the Swede.
Moreno vs Fachetti could be very interesting, how do the managers see that panning out?
Italy already had 2 World Cups under their belt before the Second World War: it's not as if the league just got its act together in the 1960/70s. I'll accept a point that quality can fluctuate from era-to-era, but again Mazzolla and Charles were top scorers either side of Nordahl's peak so it's clearly a point you're over-egging to denigrate Nordahl's fantastic record.
Voted.
Effenberg will eat your men alive. He had the attributes and the mentality for it, no idea where you get this passenger nonsense from. He was imperious for Bayern.
Vasovic being a technically refined, tactically astute and pacey defender doesn't make him a pussy. Aerially, he was every bit as good as his fellow Serbian (shorter, yes, but with a great leap and heading ability).
He captained two different sides to three European Cup finals, pussies don't do that.
He scored his side's only goal, against the run of play, in the two they lost, that sounds like courage and determination to me.
He is reknowned as a downright arrogant motherfecker, but one that had every right to be so having led Ajax to their first European Cup.
Erico will rise above them both, the Invisible Trampoline was the best of Romario, Sanchez and Zamorano wrapped into one. In this day and age, the traditional defensive tactic against him (shirt pulling) would result in countless penalties.
He was a good player in his day, but not best-in-the-world quality like Platini, Xavi and Davids. That difference in quality is why we'll exert control of the midfield. Plus the fact there's no strikers masquerading as midfielders in the five.
Quite simply, it isn't. Rijkaard alone is better than him. He consistently got owned by other midfielders in the big occasions and the only significant honours he picked are no more than a footnote on Rijkaard's list of honours. He won't cope, he won't last the game, and Rivelino will exploit that in the second half.
If you make out Vasovic to be a pussy, no it doesn't. Gio quite slyly implies Vasovic is weaker than Rio, when he wasn't. If I had two Ferdinand's, it would still be an excellent pair of defenders. Not ideal, but excellent. But Vasovic was more complete and steely than Ferdinand. There's also Facchetti, Andrade, Rijkaard (himself a multiple-honour winning CB) and Effenberg. Steel is certainly not a problem for me.
Gio also doesn't pick on Ferdinand because he calls his Franklin chap "a Rio Ferdinand equivalent". Well, I'd rather the Ferdinand I know than the supposed one.
Could do, but Iniesta contributes in the middle and links up well with Laudrup to kickstart play. In practice, as I advance with the ball the shape naturally becomes more of a magic square with two upfront once the fullbacks join in. Rijkaard and Effenberg keep things tidy, with Rijkaard able to drop into defence to let Ferdinand or Vasovic cover if needed.
The facts are all out there. I'm not making anything up that cannot be established by looking at wikipedia, I'm just putting it together to save time.
Moreno was not a wide player. Facchetti will help deal with him by tucking in, obviously, but the main issue here is Gio just put together a lot of cooks playing in the exact same area of the pitch.
I'm not denigrating, I'm putting it in perspective. In short, what I'm saying is his international record should be completely ignored as it is no guide to anything and his league record is the equivalent of a 2 in 3 player, which is not bad AT ALL, but is not Vieri on steroids, is roughly under Henry's peak and is nowhere near as good as Erico's.
I admit Erico's record is hard to gage comparatively, but Moreno makes it possible: Erico scored in his best season about 90% as many goals as Moreno's entire fabled 5-man "La Máquina" frontline. In the same league, same defences. Yet Moreno will get no end of bumming while Erico's immense record is ignored.
You are blissfully ignoring the small matter of Rijkaard right next to him while your only certified ballwinner in midfield is Edgar Davids.
Henry won a CL playing exactly where he is for Barcelona.
As stated, he will mainly drift wide or into a second striker role, while it will be Laudrup drifting right or dropping back to build up with Iniesta.
Assistant's vote should not count. Who is to tell that a guy didn't have 3 people helping him and then wins by one or tow votes? That is unfair.
Yeah, you still owe me that vote! You promised it in the middle of that bravado while flying ahead, then didn't follow up on it
It's just business.
More gash, one line in Keano's book and a whole myth is created. Davids did not consistently get owned by other midfielders on the big occasions: he had a reputation for doing the opposite. Look at the number of big games played where Juventus and Holland dominated midifields in the business end of tournaments and it was largely down to his tenacity. The only reason he didn't rack up the international honours is because the Dutch were so hopeless at penalties in 1998 and 2000.
Again I think you're reinventing his skillset to suit the weaknesses in your team.
Again a modern-day lens which you're only applying to my players but not to any of yours.
Moreno was an inside-right who was comfortable on either flank. He's in the exact role he's supposed to be in. Just like Platini. Just like Rivaldo. Anyone doubting Rivaldo's capacity to contribute from the inside-left position just needs to take a look at his time at Barcelona or in the great Brazil team of '98.
The issue though is we don't know how many assistants/collaborators each manager had. In any case, I don't care, let's go with not counting those we know actively participated. I never counted on Aldo being able to vote anyway (newb then) but I certainly would have expected his vote as a neutral. I think it is pretty straightforward that if you reach out for someone to assist you (as I did) it's because you have a shared understanding and appreciation of the game.
All in all, I lose one vote permanently, tough. It has definitely been worth it as we've enjoyed the exchanges.
Redondo 98, Keano 99. Still, no one in their right mind would compare him favourably to Frank Rijkaard.
I don't doubt their abilities, but it's still a case of too many fancy-named cooks drifting into the same central area. Facchetti and Andrade will own the flanks anyway, so happy for them to drift out there if they fancy it.
Will Davids get enough of the ball for them to get in each others' ways? Doubt it.
Both sides are evenly matched, though I may be partial to Anto's side because it has several of my "ex-players" - Laudrup, Henry, Rijkaard, Effenberg
Anto's reality distortion field worked, most voters are buying what he is saying fish, line and hook
Anto's reality distortion field worked, most voters are buying what he is saying fish, line and hook
Both sides are evenly matched, though I may be partial to Anto's side because it has several of my "ex-players" - Laudrup, Henry, Rijkaard, Effenberg
Anto's reality distortion field worked, most voters are buying what he is saying fish, line and hook
There's no reality distortion at all. Everything I wrote is out there on the internet, people just won't go out and find out so I put it together.
I didn't just say defenders were rubbish, I pointed out defences across the entire Serie A shipped 50% more goals in his pomp than they did for the next three decades (to any striker, not just Nordahl). I think that is relevant in assessing his record. How is it not relevant?
I'm just providing a basis for accurately assessing a player few will have seen. Was he good? By all means. But Gio's description of "Vieri on steroids" is way off the mark. In fact, if he didn't go for that I probably wouldn't have bothered.
Anto, why Andrade for right back?
He could be a DM in a two (e.g. where Effenberg is) or a right back. I think right back is safest, his defensive record is superb and one of the few things there is also footage that can be drawn upon.
He had all the attributes for a modern rightback or wingback, while I think the game has evolved significantly in central midfield. I think it would be very very hard to get away with a central midfielder pre-70s except for a few token ones, let alone pre-war when there wasn't really a midfield per se but more a case of two 5-a-side pitches either side of the halfway line.
Andrade was called the Black Marvel for pretty much being the first not to punt it over but to venture from one to the other with ball at feet, creating havoc, but the way central midfields work today would be completely alien to him.
The reason he could venture across was he was an exceptional dribbler and passer, he had the confidence he could either attack space or take a man on and create a numerical advantage, while having the recovery pace to run back and cover if things went awry. That's precisely what you want from a modern fullback!
The 98 CL final was an even affair with Inzaghi and Luliano squandering the best of the chances.
It was, but Redondo ran Real's midfield almost single-handedly, while Davids had Deschamps to rely on. No Deschamps helping out here.
Fairly meaningless point when Redondo had Karembeu to rely on.