All Time Chain Draft - SF1: Tuppet vs diarm

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Carlos-van Hanegem-Nedved and Reuter-Gullit-Kalle are just super. Not an optimal use of Nedved but still works nice.

The role is built for Gullit and he'd appreciate the freedom. Kalle will be relegated out wide but the link up when Gullit drops deep will be fabulous.

van Hanegem and Nedved kinda overlaps a bit, but they are intelligent enough to work it out. The contribution of van Hanegem and Gullit to defence tilts this in Tuppet favour.

Just more options and variety in threats.

Im not convinced by Schuster here. With Scholes there he seems a spare carrier and is not utilised fully.

 

[Tuppet]

I think with players as good as Schuster and Tardelli, you can't just pigeonhole them into a "best position" because they were so good wherever they played. The two roles they are employed in tody are absolutely ideal and give our side massive workrate, balance and technique in midfield.

In a game of this quality, I'll take the multifaceted players over the specialist every time because those players are the exact guys who make the difference in the tightest of games.

Baggio did it in 94, Schuster against Madrid in 82/83, Voller in the World Cup final in 1990, Klinsmann in that crucial match againt Gullit's Holland in that tournament, Scholes against Barcelona or AC Milan and of course Tardelli in the World Cup final of 1982.

My side contains the big game men who can and have stepped up to the plate at key moments in football history.

Well that argument just doesn't cut it against my team. We have plenty of big characters who have make difference in the biggest games in history.

Eto'o - Opened the scoring against Rio and Vidic in Champions league final, against a Manchester United team which was then European champion.

Gullit - Opened the scoring in Euro 1988 final. One of the best player of that tournament, also selected in team of the tournament.

Rummenigge - As German as they come, you'd have to kill him to win against his team. Was the talisman in a great Bayern team and a great servent for national team. Scored in the world cup final in 1980 and if not for a god mode Maradona, he would have been a world cup winner. Fantastic performance in Euro 80 got him to win Ballon D'or and team of the tournament.

Nedved - Instrumental in leading Juventus to 2002-03 champions league final. Scored the winner against Real madrid in semi final.

Van Hanegem - Star of the first Dutch team to win the European cup in 1969-70. Fantastic for Netherlands in 1974 world cup, had a great performance in the final as well.

Three of my defenders are world cup winners, and the fourth one was a runner up. All of them have performed at the highest level, winning crunch matches by themselves.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

The downside for Tuppet is that neither Nedved-van Hanegem nor Gullit-Kalle partnerships are what I call optimal as they tend to operate in similar areas. Will be interesting to see how he works it out.

 

[Tuppet]

As I said at this level the your men vs our men thing is not going to work out, we both have strong characters, great players who have won everything both individually and collectively. Tactics and how these guys are utilized is probably gonna make more of a difference. Like I said I am not convince by the use of Schuster and Tardelli in Diarm's team. I don't think Gary Neville would be able to hold up against Roberto Carlos & Nedved without any support form a right midfielder. And I see my defense being slightly better protected with Makelele playing a purely defensive role. These are the things in my opinion providing edge to our team.

 

[diarm]

As I said at this level the your men vs our men thing is not going to work out, we both have strong characters, great players who have won everything both individually and collectively. Tactics and how these guys are utilized is probably gonna make more of a difference. Like I said I am not convince by the use of Schuster and Tardelli in Diarm's team. I don't think Gary Neville would be able to hold up against Roberto Carlos & Nedved without any support form a right midfielder. And I see my defense being slightly better protected with Makelele playing a purely defensive role. These are the things in my opinion providing edge to our team.

I'm not sure how you're trying to paint Schuster and Tardelli here?

Marco Tardelli partnering Scholes as a box to box, central midfielder could not be more ideal for the great man to have a massive, massive influence on this game. This is a beast of a player, a guy who never stops running, leads by example and matches his ferocity with superb technique. He couldn't be better suited to this set up.

To say Neville will have no support from a right midfielder when both Tardelli and Schuster are in front of him goes completely against the type of players both were. If our opponents are basing their gameplan on having an easy right against those 3 players then they are in for a shock.

 

[Tuppet]

I'm not sure how you're trying to paint Schuster and Tardelli here?

Marco Tardelli partnering Scholes as a box to box, central midfielder could not be more ideal for the great man to have a massive, massive influence on this game. This is a beast of a player, a guy who never stops running, leads by example and matches his ferocity with superb technique. He couldn't be better suited to this set up.

To say Neville will have no support from a right midfielder when both Tardelli and Schuster are in front of him goes completely against the type of players both were. If our opponents are basing their gameplan on having an easy right against those 3 players then they are in for a shock.

I've made my problems with Schuster's role clear, He is waiting on the right side for Scholes passes and he is defending in front of Neville. If you think he is fine there alright, I am not convinced he is being used to his best abilities and we'll let the voters decide.

As for Tardelli, he is a marauding box to box player but not one of the holding type. As far as I remember he almost always played with a more defensive minded midfielder like Furino in Juventus. If he is doing his usual up and down running, a quick counter can really catch him upfield with nothing but Scholes in the midfield defending. He would have to be more disciplined here, he is capable of doing that, but that does not give you the prime Tardelli either. So thats my issue with handling of Schuster and Tardelli, both great players, but I dont think used to the best of their abilities.

 

[diarm]

I've made my problems with Schuster's role clear, He is waiting on the right side for Scholes passes and he is defending in front of Neville. If you think he is fine there alright, I am not convinced he is being used to his best abilities and we'll let the voters decide.

As for Tardelli, he is a marauding box to box player but not one of the holding type. As far as I remember he almost always played with a more defensive minded midfielder like Furino in Juventus. If he is doing his usual up and down running, a quick counter can really catch him upfield with nothing but Scholes in the midfield defending. He would have to be more disciplined here, he is capable of doing that, but that does not give you the prime Tardelli either. So thats my issue with handling of Schuster and Tardelli, both great players, but I dont think used to the best of their abilities.

But I've explained more than once the role Schuster is playing and it has nothing to do with "waiting on the right side for Scholes passes". He's a phenomenal all round midfielder who will be every bit as much an influence if not more than Scholes will be.

As for your points on Tardelli, this idea that every side needs a limited defensive midfielder like Makelele is a very recent thing. Scholes and Keane did just fine for many years and Tardelli is pretty much Roy Keane with an extra few rating points in every attribute. With the quality of my defence and with the all round ability of Tardelli and Schuster, the fact that we aren't relying on a totally defence-minded midfielder is a real strength for me.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Went for Diarm. I think the teams are very even and Tuppet has a great team himself. But the fact that Diarm has created one of the first 4-2-2-2's that has width on both sides and enough passing ability, grit, dribbling and creativity to use the fact that they will have a diamond centrally at times just edges it for me. Schuster being capable of providing the width on the right, Baggio on the left together with Amoros and of course in front of them they have an awesome partnership too.

Very even game though, no complaints at all about how Tuppet has set up here I believe in it and it looks like it would be one hell of a team. But I think Diarm just does something unique here in finding such a good balance with such great players in a midfield diamond aching to a carré magique.

 

[Tuppet]

Not to forget the best wide player on the pitch right now. With Roberto Carlos supplying crosses from all over the left flank, its hard to see the likes of Gullit and Rummenigge not scoring.

With Nedved - Roberto Carlos I can see this happening a lot.

Burning opponents for pace, with Neville a rather slowish full back, this might also happen a few time in the game.

Great crossing is one of his forte, creating many chances for my awesome frontline.

 

[diarm]

With Nedved - Roberto Carlos I can see this happening a lot.

Burning opponents for pace, with Neville a rather slowish full back, this might also happen a few time in the game.

But how often do you remember seeing Neville getting burned like that? I think it's telling that in the match you showed a clip of here, none of Neville, Vidic or Scholes featured.

I've no doubt your attack would work wonders against a defence with Silvestre, Wes Brown and John O'Shea in it. But mine is not that defence.

 

[diarm]

Looking at more relevant clips, this was a lovely match to highlight the threat of Baggio against a defence with Costacurta in it (as well as Maldini, Franco Baresi, Nava and Rijkaard ).



Baggio with the assist, passing past a furiously backpedaling Costacurta on 13 minutes and then making the very same defender look very silly in going on to score the 3rd goal of a comfortable Juventus victory on 64 minutes. Gullit played in the same game actually.

... Costacurta is the no.5 left on his arse at the halfway line!

 

[Tuppet]

Pardon for bad quality, this is Nedved against Gary Neville -

 

[diarm]

The game I posted above was in 1993-94, just before the world cup at which Baggio shone so brightly. In their next game, early in the 1994-95 season, Baggio popped up with the winner again, this time Costacurta loses our man in the 6 yard box for the Divine Ponytail to head home unmarked:

 

[Tuppet]

Looking at more relevant clips, this was a lovely match to highlight the threat of Baggio against a defence with Costacurta in it (as well as Maldini, Franco Baresi, Nava and Rijkaard ).



Baggio with the assist, passing past a furiously backpedaling Costacurta on 13 minutes and then making the very same defender look very silly in going on to score the 3rd goal of a comfortable Juventus victory on 64 minutes. Gullit played in the same game actually.


... Costacurta is the no.5 left on his arse at the halfway line!

Well if we are doing this, than here is Eto'o against Ferdinand and Vidic.

His record agains Vidic is absolutely fantastic btw.

 

[diarm]

Well if we are doing this, than here is Eto'o against Ferdinand and Vidic. His record agains Vidic is absolutely fantastic btw.

It's less good when Rio and Vidic are there together though. And I'll give you one attacker looking good against my centre back when I have two who made Costacurta look a little silly!!!

 

[Tuppet]

It's less good when Rio and Vidic are there together though. And I'll give you one attacker looking good against my centre back when I have two who made Costacurta look a little silly!!!

Its still very good in that he help his team won the champions league final. Also seriously he is the only one who has played against Ferdi - Vidic, so you got me there . But Rummenigge is a few notch higher than him and he is going to give Ferdi - Vidic an absolute torrid time.

 

[diarm]

Its still very good in that he help his team won the champions league final. Also seriously he is the only one who has played against Ferdi - Vidic, so you got me there . But Rummenigge is a few notch higher than him and he is going to give Ferdi - Vidic an absolute torrid time.

Not so sure about that. Good player but I'm not convinced how well himself and Eto'o would line up together. When I think of Rummenigge at his best I remember a strong, fast and athletic central striker and I'm not sure what Eto'o is going to do with that player behind/beside/ontop of him.

At the other end of the field I can picture exactly how Völler and Klinsmann will link up together because I've seen it many, many times. Including in World Cup and European Championship Finals!

 

[diarm]

 

[Tuppet]

Not so sure about that. Good player but I'm not convinced how well himself and Eto'o would line up together. When I think of Rummenigge at his best I remember a strong, fast and athletic central striker and I'm not sure what Eto'o is going to do with that player behind/beside/ontop of him.

At the other end of the field I can picture exactly how Völler and Klinsmann will link up together because I've seen it many, many times. Including in World Cup and European Championship Finals!

Well isn't that pretty much the point of fantasy drafts, to create new and exciting pairings. I get that Voller -Klinsmann is proven pairing but in what aspect would it be superior to Eto'o - Rummenigge. Kalle at his peak was world's finest second striker, one of the most complete forwards who loved to drift to the right and run from deep. I have no doubt that Him and Eto'o would make an excellent pairing base on whatever we have seen of them individually.

 

[diarm]

Well isn't that pretty much the point of fantasy drafts, to create new and exciting pairings. I get that Voller -Klinsmann is proven pairing but in what aspect would it be superior to Eto'o - Rummenigge. Kalle at his peak was world's finest second striker, one of the most complete forwards who loved to drift to the right and run from deep. I have no doubt that Him and Eto'o would make an excellent pairing base on whatever we have seen of them individually.

Really? I would consider him a quite typical Striker and not a second striker at all. The problem is that Eto'o is also a striker and not a second striker. You're not lacking in a second striker as such because Gullit is in quite an advanced role but I just don't see who of Kalle and Eto'o is going to take the more selfless, hardowrking role here and who will be the cutthroat, out and out striker.

In my side we know that Völler will take that centre forward role while Klinsmann will the point of the attack. In yours I can see Rummenigge and Eto'o stepping on each others toes somewhat.

 

[Tuppet]

Really? I would consider him a quite typical Striker and not a second striker at all. The problem is that Eto'o is also a striker and not a second striker. You're not lacking in a second striker as such because Gullit is in quite an advanced role but I just don't see who of Kalle and Eto'o is going to take the more selfless, hardowrking role here and who will be the cutthroat, out and out striker.

In my side we know that Völler will take that centre forward role while Klinsmann will the point of the attack. In yours I can see Rummenigge and Eto'o stepping on each others toes somewhat.

Yeah really. He was a fantastic Inside forward, quite similar in position to Baggio actually. He always used to play with an out and out striker. Had a partnership with Gerd Muller for both Germany and Bayern for some time. He actually played with Klinsmann as well. I repeat him and Eto'o would make a fine partnership.

 

[diarm]

Yeah really. He was a fantastic Inside forward, quite similar in position to Baggio actually. He always used to play with an out and out striker. Had a partnership with Gerd Muller for both Germany and Bayern for some time. He actually played with Klinsmann as well. I repeat him and Eto'o would make a fine partnership.

But Rummenigge didn't make his Germany debut until 1976 while Muller played his last international 2 years previously?

They did spend a few years together at Bayern but Kalle's wasn't the player he went on to become during those years. His goal scoring record was pretty tame up until 79 when Muller left for America. In fact, the very first season without Muller, when he had the strikers position to himself, Rummenigge broke the 20 goal barrier (and 30 goal barrier) for the first time. Something he did fairly consistently from there on in.

 

[Tuppet]

But Rummenigge didn't make his Germany debut until 1976 while Muller played his last international 2 years previously?

They did spend a few years together at Bayern but Kalle's wasn't the player he went on to become during those years. His goal scoring record was pretty tame up until 79 when Muller left for America. In fact, the very first season without Muller, when he had the strikers position to himself, Rummenigge broke the 20 goal barrier (and 30 goal barrier) for the first time. Something he did fairly consistently from there on in.

woops got something mixed up there, Thought Muller was in world cup 78 Sorry about that. But yeah, he was fantastically consistent scorer. He played with Klinsmann in Inter and Germany as well. His completeness meant he was comfortable in either wing, and he was the biggest threat in the same way Rivaldo, Baggio or Cruyff were. He was most definitely not a penalty box striker, even with the fantastic numbers he got and he would be absolutely comfortable with an out and out striker.

 

[Tuppet]

From the Xtratime forum -

"King Kalle" Karl-Heinz Rummenigge is the greatest footballer in the world during the separate period between lately 70’s to early 80’s. He was an athletic all-round forwarder, could play all position in the front line cover winger in both side, second striker and targeted striker, made him as one of the most completed football players the World has ever seen. He always beat opposing defenders with his high speed, physically power and technical abilities. Also, Rummenigge was great in off the ball and finishing. His never-say-die attitude made him a natural captain for his country as 1982 and 1986 FIFA World Cup finalists. He was rated by Kicker Ranking in 3 World-Class seasons plus 5 seasons of International-Class during ten seasons in Bundesliga. According to German footballer of the year voting, he was German forward of the year for three times.

 

[diarm]

Fair enough. Hopefully they would do well for you.

I still feel confident that my proven pair would prove more effective here. Those two were just brilliant together and with Baggio and Schuster behind them, with Scholes and Tardelli in midfield, I just see us scoring goals here. That gif I posted earlier just shows how many attacking options are open to each of our players when they have the ball. There are so many options and so many gifted players who are comfortable on the ball and capable of doing something special with it.

 

[diarm]

Some great bits in this video which show just how comfortable and effective Schuster was on the right hand side of a midfield and of an attack. Much better crosser of a ball than he's given credit for and his ability to cut inside and take on a shot or a disguised through ball would be fantastic for our side.



And this is later in his career. When he is nowhere near as mobile and athletic as he was in the mid 80's.

 

[Tuppet]

Alright I am off to bed. Despite of outcome it is a great game @diarm . I would leave with these videos in the end showcasing the fantastic ability of my attack -

Fantastic video, fantastic goal -


Rummenigge's spectacular strike -


Standard top 10 youtube goal collection of Eto'o -


Pretty good video showcasing Rummenigge's fantastic finishing ability -

 

[Balu]

But Rummenigge didn't make his Germany debut until 1976 while Muller played his last international 2 years previously?

They did spend a few years together at Bayern but Kalle's wasn't the player he went on to become during those years. His goal scoring record was pretty tame up until 79 when Muller left for America. In fact, the very first season without Muller, when he had the strikers position to himself, Rummenigge broke the 20 goal barrier (and 30 goal barrier) for the first time. Something he did fairly consistently from there on in.

Actually, Dieter Hoeneß was the reason behind that. Uli's younger brother joined Bayern in 1979. He was the perfect striker for Rummenigge to play off, strong physical center forward with brilliant hold-up and link-up play, completely selfless (had an excellent scoring record in Europe himself though). He worked himself into the ground and let Rummenigge steal the show. Wonderful partnership. Rummenigge was a truely versatile allround forward who could play all the attacking positions, but he was clearly at his best as an inside forward/2nd striker from the right.

 

[diarm]

Looks like this one is getting away from me a bit.

I'm surprised that those two great partnerships aren't having more impact in a match between two such evenly matched sides.



Especially in defence. I'm not sure people always remember quite how good Rio and Vida were back there and the edge they would have over their counterparts in this game. Both sides have wonderful attackers and that extra defensive understanding and ability would be absolutely vital.

 

[diarm]

@Edgar Allan Pillow

Can you make a quick sub for me please. Let's see if we can mix this up for the last hour or so. I'd like to bring on the wonderful Juan Sebastian Veron for the extra legs and energy he'll bring to the midfield.

Schuster moves back into the libero role in which he excelled at Real Madrid and can provide the platform for Tardelli and Veron to really get forward and threaten alongside Baggio, Völler and Klinsmann.

With Schuster dropping back as needed, Neville and Amoros have greater license to get forward on the over lap and threaten from wide areas.

 

[diarm]

Wow! Every time I make a post, I ship another vote without any input on why the decision was made! Seems a harsh scoreline in what was always going to be a tough and close game. Well done @Tuppet , that's a fine team and best of luck in the final mate!

 

[Balu]

Wow! Every time I make a post, I ship another vote without any input on why the decision was made! Seems a harsh scoreline in what was always going to be a tough and close game. Well done @Tuppet , that's a fine team and best of luck in the final mate!

It's obviously a close call and you've done a tremendous job drafting an excellent team and presenting it so well. It's sometimes not that easy to give a fair explanation in a game like that, at least it isn't for me, which is why I often abstain from voting. Sometimes it's just a gut feeling that one team would work a bit better. I can't pick holes in your team, I just think that Tuppet's team has a clearer tactical set-up, one that seems easier to execute. Part of my reasoning is also that I don't rate a 4222 in general. I've called it a clusterfeck before, a tactical set-up that only exists to shoehorn as many central midfielders as possible in a team. It's no surprise that it's defined by two nationalteams and you rarely see it at club level.

16-11 is a pretty close game in my opinion anyway. It's obvious that many rate your team. It's just 3 or 4 votes, who could go either way, making the difference here.

 

[diarm]

It's obviously a close call and you've done a tremendous job drafting an excellent team and presenting it so well. It's sometimes not that easy to give a fair explanation in a game like that, at least it isn't for me, which is why I often abstain from voting. Sometimes it's just a gut feeling that one team would work a bit better. I can't pick holes in your team, I just think that Tuppet's team has a clearer tactical set-up, one that seems easier to execute. Part of my reasoning is also that I don't rate a 4222 in general. I've called it a clusterfeck before, a tactical set-up that only exists to shoehorn as many central midfielders as possible in a team. It's no surprise that it's defined by two nationalteams and you rarely see it at club level.

16-11 is a pretty close game in my opinion anyway. It's obvious that many rate your team. It's just 3 or 4 votes, who could go either way, making the difference here.

Cheers mate. Yeah I'm not too upset because there's no shame in losing to a fine side like that. Was a really enjoyable draft anyway and I think we all learned a fair amount. Cheers @Edgar Allan Pillow for running a great game.

 

[Gio]

Went for Tuppet. The quality between the two sides is about the same. Diarm has an excellent set-up, but Tuppet is tactically cleaner. The problem with the diamond or 4222 is when you come up against a wing-back like Carlos - you've basically lost the flank.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Sorry @diarm, just woke up. Hard luck mate. You had a great team!

Congrats @Tuppet

 

[Physiocrat]

@Balu or anyone else. Which is the other national team that played 4222 apart from Brazil in 82?

 

[Joga Bonito]

Platini's France

 

[Balu]

@Balu or anyone else. Which is the other national team that played 4222 apart from Brazil in 82?

The French 80's side around Platini was also a 4222ish side, the 'carré magique'. Same thing as Brazil in '82, all the superstars were midfielders, so they shoehorned them in and hoped they'd make it work, which they did better than Brazil.

 

[Physiocrat]

Thanks for that.

 

[sajeev]

I think @diarm had a fantastic and is unlucky to lose by such a margin. However, he had two clear weaknesses in defence - Vidic and Gary Neville.
I know it is a United forum and it is sacrilege not to rate those two, but I think Vidic is a weakness against any high quality player with pace, and he was lucky in the premier league that some of his rashness wasn't punished. As for Neville, he has needed support from his partners in defence and his mistakes have been as highlighted - for example against City in 2001-02 or maybe the season after, when he was shambolic. He has had the shine of others rub off on him. He has rarely if ever been an absolute essential to the team, for example we were better at right-back when Brown covered for him, and he never was as essential in a league win as Rafael was in 2012-13 season as our 2nd-3rd best player. I know it is a very controversial opinion, but here goes