No mention of central defence? I wonder why
All Time Chain Draft - SF: The Stain vs MJJ/crappy
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
- Start date
No mention of central defence? I wonder why
Cos I havent seen enough of scirea to judge wheter he was better than kohler as a pure defender in a four man defense while stam is superior to silva.
I've gone for MJJ/Crappy. On the basis that both defences and midfields are about the same, but one team has a superior attack.
Argh lost my post.
Going for the Stain 2-1 as he has a more sustained goal threat and MJJ's front three isn't creative enough to consistently cause problems for that defense on the counter (the Stain would have more possession overall)
That said I do think Beckham over Robben would make more tactical sense for the Atain- an extra body in midfield making a perfectly balanced midfield four plus a quality route to goal- crosses to Ruud. It would also allow Robson more freedom.
Going for the Stain 2-1 as he has a more sustained goal threat and MJJ's front three isn't creative enough to consistently cause problems for that defense on the counter (the Stain would have more possession overall)
That said I do think Beckham over Robben would make more tactical sense for the Atain- an extra body in midfield making a perfectly balanced midfield four plus a quality route to goal- crosses to Ruud. It would also allow Robson more freedom.
I was desperately trying to shoehorn Beckham somewhere in there too, with what could be a great 4-4-1-1 - Beckham-Schweinsteiger-Robson-Giggs being nothing short of dreamy and with the United personnel in The Stain's team playing its part too. However in the end, The Stain went with the right personnel. Laudrup wasn't that great a goalscoring presence and it will all be overly dependent on RvN to conjure something up, which is one heck of a task, given he is directly up against Kohler. Robson would be a legitimate goalscoring threat too in a more liberal 4-4-2, but it isn't a surefire route as he is up against a steely midfield.
If it had been Baggio or a more goalscoring #10/second-striker behind Ruud then Beckham could have been great imo. As it stands, Robben would be the better choice and Laudrup would much rather play with and thread his passes to a 'runner' in Robben to than a more cultured wide player in Beckham. A real shame that Beckham misses out though.
Last edited:
I think he also have kaka. Kaka -RVN, with Beckham on right would be great imo.
Edit: not to say his current setup is not awesome.
How does he have a more sustained goal threat? Henry has more assists and goals than Giggs, ditto romario and rvn. Figo is more creative than robben who is more of a scorer to which I will agree.
Our midfield is also more physically impressive and has a much higher work rate. He will be out fought in midfield and won't nearly have enough time on the ball to create opportunities for his inferior forwards.
Even SAF doesn't think rvn was world class
Henry still holds the record for the most assist in a season in the PL, his goals,assists stats per game far eclipses gigg's. Figo has the second most assists in la liga history behind messi while robben obviously is a better goal scorer. There is no comparision between both the strikers as RVN and Romario, the former is far more reliant on service and has never been thought of as amongst the best strikers in history.
Good point about Robben's goalscoring ability and Laudrup's lack of goals. The Stain has the right setup.
He'll have more possession and has the keys in the centre to open up your defense. On the counter you'll have chances but he has an awesome defense and only really Figo is a creative outlet. Henry has loads of assists but so does Suarez- it doesn't mean he's hugely creative.
Correct me if I'm wrong,was Gerets more attack minded RB, whose contribution was more at the attacking side than the defensive side?
It does actually, if Henry has more assists and goals than his opposite number here in Giggs it's obvious that he is more creative and clinical. Similarly if saurez has more assists and goals than Rooney, I would say Suarez is more creative.
I don't think he will have more possession, the mid fields are even with him having luadrup as a ten but that's countered by having sammer as a DM. None of his players will have the time to thread through balls through the centre due to my midfield being more physical and stronger defensively. The game is going to be won on the wings and attack. Am not buying for one moment that luadrup will be able to dominate a sammer who has specifically be tasked to neutralize the area between our midfield and defense. His defense is superior but his attack is also easier to stop.
He has only Giggs as a creative outlet who isn't that creative anyway and is up against the best fullback on either side.
Furthermore robben has never been about assists, it's always been about goal scoring for him. Both sides have a winger who is more of a wing forward and a traditional winger. If you compare Henry with robben and Figo with Giggs my duo again comes up on top. Specially if you factor in rvn and romario into the equation.
I'll respond in a bit. Funny how you completely disregard Laudrup who is the most creative player on the park. It's rather 4 attackers against your 3.
Because I have sammer right in that area tasked specially with stopping Laudrup? You can't just say it's four attackers against three while I have five defenders against four. It balances out. Sammer is just as good in his position as Laudrup is in his.
Both Vieira and tigana are better defensively than Robson and shweign too. You won't dominate the midfield and neither will I. As I keep saying the game will be won by either sides front three where there is a clear gap in my favour.
He wasn't a specialist rather well balanced in both defence and attack. Known for his over-lapping runs, man-marking and deep cover. The bravery, courage and heart he offered on the pitch earned him a nickname: “The Lion (of Flanders)”. His beard along with his energetic playing style intimidated his opponents.
He captained the PSV side who won the 87/88 European Cup (CL). Part of the Belgian teams (captain 82'-90') that finished runner up in EURO 80' and 4th in the WC 86.
Thanks @The Stain
I think the match here is won by better attacking threat with other areas are evenly matched.
I think the match here is won by better attacking threat with other areas are evenly matched.
That's fair. Although, my central defence is better.
Not sure how fair it is to compare a winger to a striker, Robben would be more apt but he's still a wing forward. Henry was the focal point of the Arsenal attacks.
Anyway, i looked at Giggs v Henry in terms of assists in the seasons Henry played at Arsenal. Statbunker only has assist stats beginning at the 99/00 season, it's possible they only started counting assists then. That's 8 seasons of assists unaccounted for re Giggs (who has the most assists in PL history).
99-07:
Giggs: 82 assists in 206 starts.
Henry: 80 assists in 235 starts.
Not sure about the far eclipses here.
Robben:
CL: 39 starts 8 sub appearances: 18 goals - 12 assists cl bayern
Bundesliga: 104 starts and 34 subs - 74 goals 39 assists
Yes, he's mainly about goals but you can't tell me Robben isn't creative.
Bastian is an excellent passer and will create from deeper.
Then there is Laudrup. Hard to find assist stats but it's well known he had the most assists most seasons at all his clubs. To say he will be nullified by Sammer is over the top.
Assists and passing:
You know what they say, it's easier to defend than attack. I simply have more creative players and better passers in my team. Both our strikers will put away their chances but i'm certain my team would create more than yours.
But the gap between our strikers is far greater than the gap between our central defenses. Am also not convinced if scirea in a back four with no dm is actually better than Kohler
Which makes it even more impressive that he has so many assists while being the furthest forward tasked with the goal scoring for the team. Compare Henry to Robben and Figo to Giggs if you must, my duo is still better. Both those stats are impressive but again, my players have better stats. You cant just discount the goals either since in this match RVN isnt going to get a lot of opportunities so you are heavily reliant on both of your wingers to score.
And its not over the top in the slightest if you aware of sammer. He is the best libero germany(and probably the world) ever had since beckenbauer. He is more than a match for laudrup and will ensure that the latter doesnt get to enjoy a good game here. I can search for some quotes proclaiming him as the greatest if that will set your mind to ease?
Schweignsteiger will have his hands full in midfield with both tigana and vieira breathing down his and robson neck. As I keep saying the game will be won by either sides front trio and mine is simply superior.
I found these parts funn given that scirea is playing as a libero here I can see you conceding atleast once on the counter given that gerets is man-marking henry and only cole/stam are defending positionally at that time. Would fancy romario against stam every single time.
Figo was also nothing like Ronaldo, the only thing they share is their nationality.
Romario- Fifa World Player of the Year 1994, World Cup Golden Boot winner
Figo- Ballon D'or 2000
Henry- Back to back world footballer of the year runner up.
The records simply speak for themselves, my front three is superior to yours.
Edit- Not to mention that sammer won the Ballon D'or in 96 as well.
Last edited:
Scirea played in a back 4 for both Italy and Juventus. He can bring the ball out of defence to distribute from deep, just like Rio or more recently Pique, as i don't see Romario pressing him. He had excellent ball controll and tactical ability, he isn't going to be caught losing the ball.
Ah so he isnt playing as a libero( The position he is remembered as a GOAT for)? Rather you are just saying he is a defender with good ball playing skills.
12-12 now, the momentum is with us.
He's arguably the most tactically intelligent player on the pitch. If he deems it safe to push forward, of course he will. I have Bastian to cover for him. The reason i said he'll bring it out of defence is, you have no player to press him.
It's a fluid system. Players will cover eachothers positions. We're defending as a unit. This means players behind the ball. We're minimizing the space behind our defence for Henry and Romario to run in to. Cole won't give Figo the time he needs to create for them. Who will open up our defence with a great pass? Henry and Romario are great players but you're asking a lot from them here.
I will win this because of my creativity in midfield.
Scirea did play in a back 4 and for my money, he was more about the build-up play and aiding the midfield as opposed to being like a Passarella/Beckenbauer who were way more adventurous. Also if you are comparing defenders you should compare Scirea against Thiago Silva (ball playing/covering defenders) and Stam against Kohler (the stoppers).
And if your looking for goals from central midfield; Robson alone scored 53 more goals during his club career than Tigana and Vieira theirs combined (wiki).
. Fair enough, in that case Kohler > Stam and scirea > Silva.
Scirea did play in a back 4 and for my money, he was more about the build-up play and aiding the midfield as opposed to being like a Passarella/Beckenbauer who were way more adventurous. Also if you are comparing defenders you should compare Scirea against Thiago Silva (ball playing/covering defenders) and Stam against Kohler (the stoppers).
@The Stain if Robson is being as adventurous as his United days that's going to suit me even more since you have only svhweign defending while I have tigana and sammer.
I hope we can agree on that the gap between Kohler and Stam isn't nearly as big as Scirea and Silva.
Was just pointing out fachhhts. Robson's playing his normal role. Equally good going forward as he was tackling and intercepting the ball. Just an added attacking threat. With the array of midfielders and attackers at my disposal; your team will be pinned back in it's own penalty area defending. That's a long way from my goal. As soon as you regain possession we'll fall back in to our own half.
You're lucky that @Pippa isn't here anymore.
Yeah I will go with that, stam is closer to Kohler than Thiago is to scirea although rvn would hate to face someone like Kohler. Kohler strengths match up very well with rvn weaknesses.
a team with sammer, tigana and Vieira in midfield will never be pinned back in their own penalty box. If you try to play through the middle you will lose the ball and we will counter given that you aren't playing with a dedicated dm. If you pass the ball out wide then you can't retain possession and would have to rely on quick transitions which suits us more. And as mentioned before, you are relying very heavily on rvn to score who in all likelihood is going to have a poor game here.
Two great teams here and a wide open match. Epic game.
I was thinking similar when reading the write ups - Crappy/MJJ have described Sammer as both 'playing his natural libero role' and as a 'dedicated DM'. For me they're two distinct roles, albeit with overlapping responsibilities. As far as a set definition, I don't think there really is one, but I like this small excerpt about the evolution of the role:
Personally I think of a libero as being nominally part of the defensive line, with the best exponents having considerable freedom to step into midfield and even join the attack as Sammer did frequently. DM is a considerably more positionally restricted role IMO.
I was thinking similar when reading the write ups - Crappy/MJJ have described Sammer as both 'playing his natural libero role' and as a 'dedicated DM'. For me they're two distinct roles, albeit with overlapping responsibilities. As far as a set definition, I don't think there really is one, but I like this small excerpt about the evolution of the role:
Personally I think of a libero as being nominally part of the defensive line, with the best exponents having considerable freedom to step into midfield and even join the attack as Sammer did frequently. DM is a considerably more positionally restricted role IMO.
After reading the conversation decided to change my vote.
What changed from gios comment in the morning when you originally voted?
tbh it was your countless comparisons. And Scirea - I found it hard to vote against him originally but when I saw that you don't know what kind of player he was (or don't want to acknowledge it at least) I counted it as a tactical advantage for Stain
And I don't think that Sammer = Laudrup logic works, it's not a math.
Damn you
Sorry, I feel for you, from 13:12 to 14:11Damn you