Riquelme will tear Emerson a new one. I'm pretty sure he's done well 2-3 times against him in internationals
All Time Chain Draft Round 1 EAP vs Skizzo
- Thread starter VivaJanuzaj
- Start date
Riquelme will tear Emerson a new one. I'm pretty sure he's done well 2-3 times against him in internationals
there is a reason why Riquelme never shined at the biggest stage, the modern game is to quick for him and he needs time and space to do his magic and in the modern game you cant walk around the pitch and only rely on your talent, well you can if you are Messi but humans cant. He will be against 3 hard working midfielders who are very good defensively and i think he would struggle.
Saying than, i like what i see from Sivori, the right type of player and if you got it right with the other 2 you are a clear winner in my book.
Best player in the 2006 World Cup by a mile before Pekerman made 1 of the worst decisions of all time in the quarters
Jose Martinez Sanchez (1945 - ) Granada, Real Madrid, Puebla / Spain
Pirri
Regarded as one of the finest Spanish footballers to have played the game. Pirri played for Real Madrid for 15 years, starting as a central midfielder, then dropping back to a sweeper. He captained Madrid for 4 years, and was well known for his leadership skills and his ferocity. Like Del Sol, he possessed fantastic stamina and work rate, constantly contributing to the attacking and defensive phases of play relentlessly. A great passer of the ball, he also chipped in regularly with goals, scoring 123 in his 417 appearances for Madrid.
During his time in Madrid he won TEN La Liga titles, 4 Spanish Cups, and the European Cup.
A tough character with a never-say-die attitude, he played the 1971 final of the European Cup Winner’s Cup with his arm in a sling, and the 1975 Copa del Rey final with fever and a broken jaw.
The Yé-yé team
The Yé-yé team was the name given to the generation of all-Spanish Real Madrid players that dominated Spanish football in the 1960s. The team was captained by the veteran player Francisco Gento who won the European Cup 5 times with Alfredo di Stefano in the 1950s. He would lead a group of younger players that included Pirri. This group of younger players sometimes were considered to be hippies because they wore longer hair than the previous generation. The name "Yé-yé" came from the "Yeah, yeah, yeah" chorus in the Beatles' song "She loves you" after four members of the team posed for Marca dressed in Beatles wigs. "Yé-yé" was also how youngsters were called in Spain in the sixties when the Beatlemania was catching on around the world, as well as a musical style popular in Spain in that decade.
Pirri
Regarded as one of the finest Spanish footballers to have played the game. Pirri played for Real Madrid for 15 years, starting as a central midfielder, then dropping back to a sweeper. He captained Madrid for 4 years, and was well known for his leadership skills and his ferocity. Like Del Sol, he possessed fantastic stamina and work rate, constantly contributing to the attacking and defensive phases of play relentlessly. A great passer of the ball, he also chipped in regularly with goals, scoring 123 in his 417 appearances for Madrid.
During his time in Madrid he won TEN La Liga titles, 4 Spanish Cups, and the European Cup.
A tough character with a never-say-die attitude, he played the 1971 final of the European Cup Winner’s Cup with his arm in a sling, and the 1975 Copa del Rey final with fever and a broken jaw.
The Yé-yé team
The Yé-yé team was the name given to the generation of all-Spanish Real Madrid players that dominated Spanish football in the 1960s. The team was captained by the veteran player Francisco Gento who won the European Cup 5 times with Alfredo di Stefano in the 1950s. He would lead a group of younger players that included Pirri. This group of younger players sometimes were considered to be hippies because they wore longer hair than the previous generation. The name "Yé-yé" came from the "Yeah, yeah, yeah" chorus in the Beatles' song "She loves you" after four members of the team posed for Marca dressed in Beatles wigs. "Yé-yé" was also how youngsters were called in Spain in the sixties when the Beatlemania was catching on around the world, as well as a musical style popular in Spain in that decade.
Luis Del Sol (1935- ) Betis, Real Madrid, Juventus, Roma / Spain
Siete Pulmones (seven lungs)
The great Alfredo di Stefano was a fan of Del Sol, proclaiming that he had the ability to run himself into the ground for the team. Del Sol was an intelligent player, and comfortable playing out wide left, or any position across the midfield. He always knew what he was going to do next, and his intelligence complemented his all action style. He would often drive the team forward from midfield.
He helped Madrid win the European Cup, as well as back to back La Liga titles, in his 2 seasons in Spain. He also added the 1960 Intercontinental Cup to his trophy haul, beating a Penarol side that someone here may be familiar with.
He was capable of getting on the scoresheet, scoring 17 in his first season with Madrid, but his role in our team will be to add work rate, and a strong presence in the middle of the field, freeing up other players to run the game. When he has the chance, he'll look to drive the ball forward with his strong runs and put those lungs to good use.
Siete Pulmones (seven lungs)
The great Alfredo di Stefano was a fan of Del Sol, proclaiming that he had the ability to run himself into the ground for the team. Del Sol was an intelligent player, and comfortable playing out wide left, or any position across the midfield. He always knew what he was going to do next, and his intelligence complemented his all action style. He would often drive the team forward from midfield.
He helped Madrid win the European Cup, as well as back to back La Liga titles, in his 2 seasons in Spain. He also added the 1960 Intercontinental Cup to his trophy haul, beating a Penarol side that someone here may be familiar with.
He was capable of getting on the scoresheet, scoring 17 in his first season with Madrid, but his role in our team will be to add work rate, and a strong presence in the middle of the field, freeing up other players to run the game. When he has the chance, he'll look to drive the ball forward with his strong runs and put those lungs to good use.
@VivaJanuzaj @sjor bepo @crappycraperson
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/chain-draft-main-thread.408307/page-60#post-18089774
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/chain-draft-main-thread.408307/page-60#post-18089869
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/chain-draft-main-thread.408307/page-60#post-18089893
The player profiles are now in this thread, and here's the direct links too just in case.
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/chain-draft-main-thread.408307/page-60#post-18089774
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/chain-draft-main-thread.408307/page-60#post-18089869
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/chain-draft-main-thread.408307/page-60#post-18089893
The player profiles are now in this thread, and here's the direct links too just in case.
@Šjor Bepo tag didn't work in the post above.
Always annoys me. Have no idea how to make that inverted ^ so have to go hunting for a post of his and copy paste the name.
Don't complain if no one writes to you Sjor.
thats one tournament, his career is the total opposite of his reputation. The fact is, he was not that good when you consider everything. The talent is obvious and he was a lovely player to watch but he didnt proved himself at the highest stage for longer period at club level because he isnt suited for modern game. If he was born few decades before im pretty sure we would talk about him as one of the best number 10 in history.
Why tag me? Leave me alone
. Oh and I think I disagree with the dead-ringer thing anyway.
You can tag him without using the inverted ^. Just write @ sjo and the menu to select him shows up.
fair point btw you have my vote @Skizzo so will stop with bashing Riquelme hehe, like what i see and read from this three, specially Sivori and i think its enough to exploit by far the weakest link on the pitch - Mexes. Shame for EAP as his team is also brilliant but Mexes is a shocking pick. Usually you can get away with picking weaker players if you put them in certain systems but i cant think of one system that would be suited to him.
I apologize for that. I usually post that and did so this time without thinking. Took it down immediately after Aldo pointed out, but there's that!
I don't hold it against you...everyone has been doing it for so long it just becomes habit to draft your team and put it up to see what everyone thinks. It just annoyed me more since I found myself down 7 votes to 1 at one point which wouldn't have happened if you had your Totti brainfart
(and tbh, I was still confused how the scoreline was like that anyway!)
The issue with Riquelme was he needed a team to be built around him and the bigger teams weren't ready/willing to do that. Wherever he found an appropriate setup he tore up rivals, regularly.
It is often made out to be a case of any hardworking midfielder shutting him out. Not even Makelele could shut him out for 90, and that's enough for him to make his mark.
00:58
So let's look at the front two a bit more. Obviously Shevchenko and Rummenigge are probably the more familiar names, and their goal scoring records speak for themselves...but how do they measure up to the competition here.
Here's what was written in the OP
Shevchenko hit 127 in 208 (.61 goal average) at Milan and
Rummenigge 162 in 310 at Bayern. (.52 goal average)
compared with
Sivori 135 in 215 (.62 goal average) for Juve along with
Charles 108 in 155 (.69 goal average) which is even more impressive when considering he'd often play some games in defence after he scored!!
Even if we extend that to career average...
Rummenigge - 220 in 424 (.51)
shevchenko - 219 in 446 (.49)
Sivori - 176 in 341 (.51)
charles - 370 in 715 (.51)
So I actually have the more prolific goal scorers, and they're up against the weaker defence overall, and by far the weakest player on the field in Mexes.
Here's what was written in the OP
Not much wrong with that. However, if we look at their peaks here.
Shevchenko hit 127 in 208 (.61 goal average) at Milan and
Rummenigge 162 in 310 at Bayern. (.52 goal average)
compared with
Sivori 135 in 215 (.62 goal average) for Juve along with
Charles 108 in 155 (.69 goal average) which is even more impressive when considering he'd often play some games in defence after he scored!!
Even if we extend that to career average...
Rummenigge - 220 in 424 (.51)
shevchenko - 219 in 446 (.49)
Sivori - 176 in 341 (.51)
charles - 370 in 715 (.51)
So I actually have the more prolific goal scorers, and they're up against the weaker defence overall, and by far the weakest player on the field in Mexes.
As usual Skizzo just keeps harping on Mexes hoping people would ignore his shortcomings everywhere else
One, From what I read Pirri was a Centre Midfielder in the mould of Effenberg or Keane, a good box-to-box player. I certainly don;t think he can pay the pivot for a diamond letting Del Sol and Lucha free. I would reckon it's the same as playing Keane there, can do a decent job, but certainly not even close to peak performance. Emerson is a far better fit there and would be much more influential in this game.
Two, Riquelme for all his talent was a classic case of a player who never reached his potential. He has always been there, never reached anywhere close to his peak in Europe. If we go by talent and you tube passing compliations, he'll be there...But in terms of CAREER PEAK, he's a couple of levels below the rest of attackers on the pitch
Three, I would rate my midfielders ahead of him going by career peaks. Breitner has a incredible scoring ratio for a midfielder and my opponent's team has nothing remotely similar to the one-two punch of Breitnigge. They were devastating duo for Bayern at their peak and even discounting Shevchenko and Totti, a handful by themselves. I have a far superior attack.
Four, for all the harping on my defence, both my full backs are better than his. He has an advantage in Central defensive pairing, but I have a clear advantage in the flanks.
One, From what I read Pirri was a Centre Midfielder in the mould of Effenberg or Keane, a good box-to-box player. I certainly don;t think he can pay the pivot for a diamond letting Del Sol and Lucha free. I would reckon it's the same as playing Keane there, can do a decent job, but certainly not even close to peak performance. Emerson is a far better fit there and would be much more influential in this game.
Two, Riquelme for all his talent was a classic case of a player who never reached his potential. He has always been there, never reached anywhere close to his peak in Europe. If we go by talent and you tube passing compliations, he'll be there...But in terms of CAREER PEAK, he's a couple of levels below the rest of attackers on the pitch
Three, I would rate my midfielders ahead of him going by career peaks. Breitner has a incredible scoring ratio for a midfielder and my opponent's team has nothing remotely similar to the one-two punch of Breitnigge. They were devastating duo for Bayern at their peak and even discounting Shevchenko and Totti, a handful by themselves. I have a far superior attack.
Four, for all the harping on my defence, both my full backs are better than his. He has an advantage in Central defensive pairing, but I have a clear advantage in the flanks.
I don't hold it against you...everyone has been doing it for so long it just becomes habit to draft your team and put it up to see what everyone thinks. It just annoyed me more since I found myself down 7 votes to 1 at one point which wouldn't have happened if you had your Totti brainfart
(and tbh, I was still confused how the scoreline was like that anyway!)
7-1? Never noticed that! It's 9-6 now and you are catching up faster. These early leads count for less as I predict this would go down the wire.
Then stop faffing around in your game and put mine up or I'll vote against you!
Seriously, I need to go to work. I made some bollocks excuse to arrive late but I'm going to struggle to catch much of the start.
It will also help that I will be otherwise distracted and won't be bumming Skizzo's team here
Totti ignored from the equation?
The brilliance of Breitnigge (and their goal exploits) do not count?
Totti's career peak is comfortably above Riquelme and he'll definitely have a significant edge.
Pirri is not a pivot DM and so Emerson will have much better day containing Riquelme than Pirri with Totti.
Apart from central defensive pair, I'm equal or comfortably better everywhere else on the pitch!
I can't believe I'm actually thinking about voting against Breitnigge
As usual Skizzo just keeps harping on Mexes hoping people would ignore his shortcomings everywhere else
One, From what I read Pirri was a Centre Midfielder in the mould of Effenberg or Keane, a good box-to-box player. I certainly don;t think he can pay the pivot for a diamond letting Del Sol and Lucha free. I would reckon it's the same as playing Keane there, can do a decent job, but certainly not even close to peak performance. Emerson is a far better fit there and would be much more influential in this game.
Two, Riquelme for all his talent was a classic case of a player who never reached his potential. He has always been there, never reached anywhere close to his peak in Europe. If we go by talent and you tube passing compliations, he'll be there...But in terms of CAREER PEAK, he's a couple of levels below the rest of attackers on the pitch
Three, I would rate my midfielders ahead of him going by career peaks. Breitner has a incredible scoring ratio for a midfielder and my opponent's team has nothing remotely similar to the one-two punch of Breitnigge. They were devastating duo for Bayern at their peak and even discounting Shevchenko and Totti, a handful by themselves. I have a far superior attack.
Four, for all the harping on my defence, both my full backs are better than his. He has an advantage in Central defensive pairing, but I have a clear advantage in the flanks.
Glad you showed up
Let's go over these shall we
One, Pirri was a ridiculously good player. I'd compare him more to Beckenbauer in dm than Keane. Able to drive forward and link up with the front, or drop back and help defend. The benefit to having him in our team here is that all 3 midfielders are hard working, versatile. If Pirri does step forward, he has Del Sol to cover who has a terrier in the midfield. He can also do a far better job on Totti than Emerson would on Riquelme.
Two, Riquelme, as @antohan posted above, wasn't always in a set up that let him thrive. Here, he's up against Emerson, already a match up in his favour, and he has three players behind him who will do the dirty work, and two hard working players ahead of him who would make the runs and link up. He's quite at home in this set up. I'll copy @Cutch 's video over so we can all enjoy it again
three, Career peaks in what way? Del Sol has won Serie A, La Liga, the European Cup, and the European Championships. Pirri won 10...TEN...league titles with Madrid in his 15 years there, and the European Cup. Luis Enrique won La Liga with two different teams, the Olympics, and the Cup Winners Cup. Their pedigree isn't really in question. They just aren't as familiar names as yours...but its far from a mismatch as you point it out to be. And saying I don't have a one-two punch in my team? Charles and Sivori say hello.
four, brehme is a better full back, I'd say Camacho is better than Sagnol, then Sagnol then Chendo. The difference is that when you attack the flanks with Sagnol, who is left to cover him? Philippe fecking Mexes. The weakest player on the field, left to try and cover with Sivori drifting out wide and Charles in the box.
I wouldn't say I have any shortcomings anywhere on the field. Maybe some unfamiliar players, but certainly no one to the tune of Mexes. A complete liability in an all time draft against world class forwards.
You can't. Mexes may not be in the league, but he is not a defensive liability.
- My strikers equal if not better to his.
- My midfield is definitely better. (Totti > Riquelme | Pirri not a pivot DM, so Emerson will have a better game)
- My full backs will influence the game far more than his.
I felt a little arsey during our game when Crappy and Anto were saying they wished they got one of us instead of their games.
Having seen this last two games though I see what they meant! Massive quality match up here again.
EAP's midfield side is awesome and his fullbacks were made to play in a diamond formation like this.
But I can't get over the quality in Skizzo's front 3. I'm a sucker for Riquelme and behind such a magnificent front pair, against the weaker pair of centre backs, Skizzo takes this one for me.
Having seen this last two games though I see what they meant! Massive quality match up here again.
EAP's midfield side is awesome and his fullbacks were made to play in a diamond formation like this.
But I can't get over the quality in Skizzo's front 3. I'm a sucker for Riquelme and behind such a magnificent front pair, against the weaker pair of centre backs, Skizzo takes this one for me.
It's all true, and as my first post here regarding the match I agreed with all of these(well Riquelme-Totti is arguable depends on style so I won't necessarily agree on it).
But, I always hate when people decide these "matches" based on full backs vs full backs, strikers vs strikers etc, it's the wrong way. The fact that you have better strikers doesn't mean that Skizzo's strikers won't be causing more damage because their not facing your strikers, their facing your CBs, and your strikers are facing his CBs. And It's not player or position vs the player in the same position in the opposing team, it's build vs build and matchups along the pitch. And you might be winning most of them, but he's definitely winning the most important one which is putting the ball in the net. In that region he's above you because he's strikers are more likely to beat your CBs/defensive build.
So again, it's a question of can they do it more times than you in a manner that will give them the win or is your superiority in midfield and front will be enough to dominate him. Honestly I'm not sure yet, but I'm leaning towards Skizzo to be honest, because this one matchup of strikers vs CBs is the one that in reality wins games, and Mexes might be a really big weak link here, big enough to make that difference.
Not ignoring Totti from the equation at all. I was comparing the front two, in which I have a proven partnership. You keep mentioning how you have this one-two punch...so do i, and it's more prolific than yours, and up against the weaker defence.
Totti has scored 243 career goals to Riquelme's 123. Clear edge? Well, no. Totti has been the main man for his team, Riquelme would often get shunted to different positions. Totti has made almost 100 more appearances, but about 85 of his goals were penalties. Again, Riquelme not the liability you try to point out. He'd be quite comfortable pulling the strings and getting by Emerson here.
Pirri is more than comfortable in the position he's in. Totti is hardly a workhorse who's gonna be zipping all over the field anyway. He'll be looking to pull the strings for you, but he'll struggle against one of Spain's greatest ever midfielders...and with that world class defence in front of the best keeper in the draft.
And it doesn't matter if we're equal in most places on the pitch...the fact is that Mexes is a HUGE liability in an all time draft against top tier opponents here.
Thinking about it some more I'm going for Skizzo 2-1.
The main reason is Skizz's defence is a lot better than EAP's and Emerson, who I actually think is very underrated will have his hands full with Riquelme; Pirri will do a better job on Totti than Emerson on Riquelme. Great vid @antohan Makelele sure resorts to fouling a lot against him.
Another minor quibble with EAP is that Shevchenko is better with a proper #9 although it is mitigated by Totti bursting forward too.
If Skizz can get some full-backs who can attack better he could go far indeed.
The main reason is Skizz's defence is a lot better than EAP's and Emerson, who I actually think is very underrated will have his hands full with Riquelme; Pirri will do a better job on Totti than Emerson on Riquelme. Great vid @antohan Makelele sure resorts to fouling a lot against him.
Another minor quibble with EAP is that Shevchenko is better with a proper #9 although it is mitigated by Totti bursting forward too.
If Skizz can get some full-backs who can attack better he could go far indeed.
I was watching a video of Riquelme against Brazil in 2005 or 2006. Every time he was on the ball, a Brazilian player would immediately try and kick him or take him down. Granted, that's how a lot of those games go anyway
but Emerson was guilty of it too. If he gets fouled here, he's great with set pieces when shooting himself or his delivery from indirect set pieces to Charles is a clear route too.
As for the full backs, Chendo is quite defensive, which works somewhat here since Brehme will look to attack...but Camacho was quite good going up and down the wing. Granted, not a Robbie Carlos, but could do a job and get some crosses in.
I think you overrate your midfielders. Both Del Sol and Lucha lean towards attack. Del Sol was even in the attacking 5 of a 2-3-5 during his career with Real Madrid. Pirri is the only real box-to-box midfielder you have and you have stuck him in a pivot DM role. I would definitely disagree Pirri would be anywhere close to his peak in that role. DM in a 4-2-3-1, I can buy, but at base of a diamond...certainly not.
The career stats are just confusing the voters. Riquleme in his 'peak' had a 17 goals from 46 games, certainly not close to Totti (20 from 32 games or 32 from 50 games). He never lived upto his peak and certainly will have lesser impact than Totti here.
You certainly underrate them.
Del Sol started as an outside left, then dropped back to play in central midfield later in his career
He would look to drive forward from midfield, but he would also work hard in there and win the ball back too.
Luis Enrique was a great player in multiple positions, and could certainly play in the role he is here
Both of them are capable of working hard in central midfield...and the added benefit of them both being comfortable wide. When the chance arises, either of them can drift into the space out wide and put crosses in for Charles. Charles being the one in the box scoring the headers against Mexes
Why would career stats confuse voters? What's confusing about stats over an entire career? It's not like im skewing them one way or the other. Riquelme was never a huge goal scorer, he was renowned for his playmaking and creative side...which is what is needed here. That being said, over his career he has a similar goal scoring record if you remove the penalties.
If you just look at Riquleme's league stats he scored 15 in 33 in 2004/5- that ain't bad for a classic #10
Totti often played as a false 9 or a 9.5, especially in his heaviest goalscoring seasons. Riquelme was always a classic 10. In terms of impact you have to consider that Totti is up against Pirri, while Riquelme is up against Emerson.
Just so we are aware how out of his depth Mexes is here...
I've made this point earlier. Pirri was a box-to-box midfielder from every article I've read. Definitely not a fit for the base of the diamond. It's akin to playing Keane or Effenberg at the base of a diamong. Can do a job, but nowhere near their peak. Emerson will have a better time with Riquelme, than Pirri with Totti. Totti has the penchant for drifting all over the final third (and is comfortable out wide too) and Pirri would have a much tougher ask to track him all over.
Secondly, his full backs won't offer much support in going forward as mine. For a diamond, it is a crucial part to making the formation work and DelSol/Lucha will have a tough time holding the middle and providing width.
For me, yeah they are against good defenders, but Sagnol-Breitner-Kalle and Brehme-Effenberg-Totti are far better link up's and will definitely lead to plenty of goals.
Peak was Roma not Milan, so your quotes are not even comparable to his peak.
2006-07 With him and Chivu in Central Defence, The Giallorossi also finished second in Serie A with the third lowest goals conceded total!
No one plays for 10+ years in Italian top league while being a defensive liability.
Not sure why you seem to think he can't play there. I get the "misdirection" of trying to get attention away from Mexes...but Pirri is highly regarded, one of Spain's all time great midfielders, and is more than capable of shutting down Totti here.
By your own admission, Emerson is on Riquelme, so if Enrique on Del Sol drift wide, your own midfielders will have to come wide to cover them. If not, your full backs will need to push up again, leaving the space behind for Sivori and Riquelme to exploit.
Sagnol pushing up would be fine if you had someone there who could cover him...Mexes isn't that player. Not by a long shot. In an all time draft, he's so far out of his depth.