All Time Chain Draft - R1: The Stain vs Šjor Bepo

With all players at their peaks, who would win?

  • Total voters
    29
  • Poll closed .
Šjor Bepo said:
even better for Giggs - Babbel duel :D
As for Gerets, i didnt mean underrating him as i rate him highly but from the little i saw from Gento and from what i read about him, he is one of the best wingers of all time so i dont think Gerets would be able to match him.
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I don't believe I mentioned Gerets.

But you're right, I don't think he'd have much joy against Gento in a pure match-up.
 
Key points:

Netzer is much freer than Kaka as The Stain lacks a player who can sit whereas we have Bastian who has excelled in this role for club and county; Beckham can help out but you don't want Netzer to have an inch of room. He'll find space free and cause havoc. Creating chances for Gento, Armancio and Papin. Amancio and Gento (both Real legends) are great flying wingers who'd cause any pair of full-back problems let alone being supplied by Netzer

On Papin, he will be a thorn in the side of Stam and Koeman- a quick player who can dribble well will expose Koeman. Stam is still there but as the more aggressive defender and the lack of protection in front of the back four Stam will step out leaving Papin on Koeman.

RVN on the other hand can be seen to by Forster more carefully due to Kaka having more problems from Bastian and also Bonhof - note Bonhof and Bastian are required to do less attacking work than Robson and Essien.
 
Physiocrat said:
Key points:

Netzer is much freer than Kaka as The Stain lacks a player who can sit whereas we have Bastian who has excelled in this role for club and county; Beckham can help out but you don't want Netzer to have an inch of room. He'll find space free and cause havoc. Creating chances for Gento, Armancio and Papin. Amancio and Gento (both Real legends) are great flying wingers who'd cause any pair of full-back problems let alone being supplied by Netzer

On Papin, he will be a thorn in the side of Stam and Koeman- a quick player who can dribble well will expose Koeman. Stam is still there but as the more aggressive defender and the lack of protection in front of the back four Stam will step out leaving Papin on Koeman.

RVN on the other hand can be seen to by Forster more carefully due to Kaka having more problems from Bastian and also Bonhof - note Bonhof and Bastian are required to do less attacking work than Robson and Essien.
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You make it sound like i don't have any central midfielders. Or that they are always in the oppositions half. We are defending as a unit. Both Robson and Essien will occupy that area. Anyway, Sjor's pressing starts in his own half so when they win the ball back there is a long way to goal and his best way to goal, the left side, is protected by Beckham, Essien, Stam and Gerets (team practises zonal marking).

Kaká is mostly targeting Metzelder so Bastian isn't near. Lahm needs to mark Beckham or he'll put loads of through balls/crosses in. Both Bastian and Bonhof weren't exactly fast and it'll be difficult for them to keep up with Kaká when he gets dribbling.

Förster was a great man marker but here he is in the middle of a defence containing Babbel and Metzelder. He can't purely focus on RvN. He will have to leave his position to help Babbel when he inevitably gets skinned by Giggs. Give Ruud an inch of space in the box and he will score.

Koeman was a leader who organized defences and he had excellent positional sense so i'm happy with him dealing with Papin. Anyway, this is all 1 v 1 talk. As a whole; my team is more balanced.
 
Metzelder's obviously the weakest player on the park. But as a pure defender he's no worse than Koeman IMO.

In fairness to Koeman, he's very well protected here and complements Stam well.
 
The Stain said:
You make it sound like i don't have any central midfielders. Or that they are always in the oppositions half. We are defending as a unit. Both Robson and Essien will occupy that area. Anyway, Sjor's pressing starts in his own half so when they win the ball back there is a long way to goal and his best way to goal, the left side, is protected by Beckham, Essien, Stam and Gerets
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Unless you're playing your back 4 deep only pressing in your own half does mean there's a long way to goal but also a lot of space. This is precisely your problem with dealing with Netzer. If you setup go sit deep and stifle space it would make sense. The way your set up the intelligence and speed of our front four will carve you open. Gento and Armancio with space to run will be a joy to see unless your Cole or Gerets.

Kaka may well focus on Metzelder but Bastian can help out. Bastian will also be able to start attacks of from deep when Netzer is further forward
 
Gio said:
Metzelder's obviously the weakest player on the park. But as a pure defender he's no worse than Koeman IMO.

In fairness to Koeman, he's very well protected here and complements Stam well.
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Metzelder is the weakest player no doubt. My point is the lack of protection for the Stain's back four which could leave Papin on Koeman much more often than Kaka on Metzelder. In other words, Papin will score
 
Papin is getting underated here so he's some PES stats while I find a good video


Attack: 92
Defence: 38
Balance: 72
Stamina: 78
Top Speed: 83
Acceleration: 78
Response: 90
Agility: 84
Dribble Accuracy: 85
Dribble Speed: 83
Short Pass Accuracy: 84
Short Pass Speed: 79
Long Pass Accuracy: 79
Long Pass Speed: 78
Shot Accuracy: 94
Shot Power: 82
Shot Technique: 95
Free Kick Accuracy: 87
Curling: 89
Header: 87
Jump: 80
Technique: 91
Aggression: 95
Mentality: 76
Keeper Skills: 50
Teamwork: 84

Condition/Fitness: 6
Weak Foot Accuracy: 6
Weak Foot Frequency: 6

SPECIAL ABILITIES:
★ Positioning
★ Scoring
★ 1st touch pass
 
Physiocrat said:
Unless you're playing your back 4 deep only pressing in your own half does mean there's a long way to goal but also a lot of space.
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Physiocrat said:
Gento and Armancio with space to run will be a joy to see unless your Cole or Gerets.
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Makes no sense.

Here's Ruud for comparison:

Attack: 98
Defence: 36
Balance: 87
Stamina: 84
Top Speed: 83
Acceleration: 82
Response: 97
Agility: 78
Dribble Accuracy: 85
Dribble Speed: 83
Short Pass Accuracy: 78
Short Pass Speed: 78
Long Pass Accuracy: 70
Long Pass Speed: 72
Shot Accuracy: 96
Shot Power: 82
Shot Technique: 95
Free Kick Accuracy: 74
Curling: 81
Header: 86
Jump: 81
Technique: 87
Aggression: 97
Mentality: 78
Keeper Skills: 50
Teamwork: 80

Condition/Fitness: 7
Weak Foot Accuracy: 7
Weak Foot Frequency: 5

SPECIAL ABILITIES:
★ Positioning
★ Scoring
★ Post Player
★ Lines

PLAYER INDEX CARDS:
P13 - Goal Poacher
P19 - Fox in the Box
S01 - Marauding
S03 - 1-on-1 Finish
S04 - PK Taker
S05 - 1-touch play
S20 - Flicking Skills

Here's Netzer vs Kaká:

Kaká:

Attack: 87
Defence: 47
Balance: 84
Stamina: 85
Top Speed: 88
Acceleration: 95
Response: 82
Agility: 85
Dribble Accuracy: 93
Dribble Speed: 95
Short Pass Accuracy: 88
Short Pass Speed: 87
Long Pass Accuracy: 83
Long Pass Speed: 83
Shot Accuracy: 85
Shot Power: 84
Shot Technique: 84
Free Kick Accuracy: 75
Curling: 82
Header: 75
Jump: 77
Technique: 93
Aggression: 87
Mentality: 79
Goalkeeper Skills: 50
Team Work: 83

Netzer:

Attack: 83
Defence: 62
Balance: 83
Stamina: 82
Top Speed: 80
Acceleration: 83
Response: 80
Agility: 78
Dribble Accuracy: 87
Dribble Speed: 80
Short Pass Accuracy: 95
Short Pass Speed: 89
Long Pass Accuracy: 98
Long Pass Speed: 88
Shot Accuracy: 79
Shot Power: 86
Shot Technique: 83
Free Kick Accuracy: 87
Curling: 92
Header: 71
Jump: 74
Technique: 93
Aggression: 81
Mentality/Tenacity: 81
Goalkeeper Skills: 50
Team Work: 87

Here's a video of Ruud for good measure (all goals for Utd is 46 mins long so this will have to do):

 
I'm not sure who I'd take over Ruud and Papin. They're pretty similar.
 
I wasn't downplaying Ruud- he was awesome and I'm a big fan. I just want to show how good Papin is.

Your Netzer Kaka comparison is quite handy. Netzer is seriously creative: Short Pass accuracy 95, Long Pass Accuracy 98, free kick 87, curling 92 and technique 93

Also Gento and Amancio will draw lots of fouls which will allow Netzer many opportunities to aim for Forster, Metzelder and Palin in the middle
 
:lol: So we went from the gif overlords in the last game to the FIFA/PES stats fanatics here. At least the stats don't kill my mobile internet connection, I'll give you bonus points for that.
 
Balu said:
:lol: So we went from the gif overlords in the last game to the FIFA/PES stats fanatics here. At least the stats don't kill my mobile internet connection, I'll give you bonus points for that.
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:lol: Blame @antohan !
 
Balu said:
:lol: So we went from the gif overlords in the last game to the FIFA/PES stats fanatics here. At least the stats don't kill my mobile internet connection, I'll give you bonus points for that.
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:lol:
 
In my defence I was doing it all by phone.

However as Gio points out there isn't much in it between Ruud and Papin which the stats bear out
 
Balu said:
:lol: So we went from the gif overlords in the last game to the FIFA/PES stats fanatics here. At least the stats don't kill my mobile internet connection, I'll give you bonus points for that.
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unbelievable
 
Love the balance of Stain's side and he has some cracking players but his lack of a dedicated holding midfielder is the prime (or more like the only) reason why I've voted for Sjor. Needless to say, I think that Robson and Essien would make for a cracking duo and they are fine enough defensively against just about most teams. However, against a top-notch #10 like Netzer, I just think they wouldn't be as well-suited to handle his movement and threat on the ball as opposed to a more withdrawn midfielder. That was ultimately the tipping point for me in an extremely tight match where you have two cracking CB partnerships (apart from Metzelder but you'd expect Forster to pick up Ruud anyway) against a great lone striker, two combative midfields with just the right balance and two complementary wing duos in a tight battle against well-matched FB pairings (perhaps will give Giggs an advantage over Babbel and Gento over Gerets, also taking into consideration that you'd expect Cole to be much better at providing support than Lahm at LB).

Lahm at LB isn't ideal as he won't provide much support offensively, well not as much as he would on the right anyway, but defensively I still expect him to be fine. Just as he was when he was playing as a LB for Germany.

Am open to changing my vote though, given the slim margins of the game but can see Netzer just tipping the balance towards Sjor here.
 
Joga Bonito said:
Love the balance of Stain's side and he has some cracking players but his lack of a dedicated holding midfielder is the prime (or more like the only) reason why I've voted for Sjor. Needless to say, I think that Robson and Essien would make for a cracking duo and they are fine enough defensively against just about most teams. However, against a top-notch #10 like Netzer, I just think they wouldn't be as well-suited to handle his movement and threat on the ball as opposed to a more withdrawn midfielder. That was ultimately the tipping point for me in an extremely tight match where you have two cracking CB partnerships against a great lone striker, two combative midfields with just the right balance and two complementary wing duos in a tight battle against well-matched FB pairings (perhaps will give Giggs an advantage over Babbel and Gento over Gerets, also taking into consideration that you'd expect Cole to be much better at providing support than Lahm at LB).

Lahm at LB isn't ideal as he won't provide much support offensively, well not as much as he would on the right anyway, but defensively I still expect him to be fine. Just as he was when he was playing as a LB for Germany.

Am open to changing my vote though, given the slim margins of the game but can see Netzer just tipping the balance towards Sjor here.
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thats what im talking about, i built a team around Netzer while on the other side Kaka is "just" an option in stains attack(to harsh but i dont know how to express myself, hopefully you guys understand what i mean :D ).
About Lahm, he doesnt need to contribute offensively as Gento doesnt need help from the overlapping fullback.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Essien will cover the right side. Although he has more defensive obligations; Essien will have opportunities to drive forward with the ball for the odd long-shot/one-two.
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From my write up. He is being asked to focus more on defence. Is it really not plausible to think he would carry out my instructions to play more restrictive?

I'm not buying that Essien can't play a more holding role here. Some quotes:

In 2005 Chelsea signed the Ghanaian for £24.4 million from Lyon. Essien assumed the role of holding midfielder in Jose Mourinho’s side. He had inherited the mantle of Claude Makelele, although Essien has a more rounded game.
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http://articles.squarefootball.net/...holding-midfielder-in-the-premier-league.html

"His preferred position is a defensive midfield, a number 6, but he can play as an attacking midfielder"
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/c/chelsea/4157044.stm
 
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Defending:
Stains attacking setup fits perfectly for my defenders. Most of the attacks will go down the wing and thats perfect from my point of view. Metzelder is the weakest player on the pitch there is no question about it but that setup fits him perfectly and he couldnt ask for the better fit striker wise then Ruud. And while he is the weakest player he isnt a bad one like Mexes in some match before. He is a good defender, good fit for his partner and a good fit for opponents attacking philosophy/striker.
Giggs will be against Babbel and they met before, Babbel was on the winning side more often then not and Giggs didnt do much in this games.
Beckham is against Lahm, the perfect man to mark the handsome bastard. One of the most intelligent players around and he will only have to focus on the defensive side of the game.
Kaka doesnt have team built around himself and he will be against the german wall of Bonhof, Netzer and Schweinsteiger! The latter one will mostly keep an eye on him as he will play the holding role.

Attacking:
The biggest question is, who will stop Netzer? There isnt a holding midfielder in stains team and against that type of player you need more protection than you can get from Essien - Robson(both are very good defensively i admit), specially as i have Amancio on the right who will cut in often and combine with Netzer.
Gento is against Gerets and he will have the upper hand there, Stam would probably need to cover for Gerets and that leaves the quick and mobile Papin in the middle 1v1 against Koeman.

Conclusion:
Stain built a side around wingers and that fits my team. I built around Netzer and there is a big question mark on who and how will stop him.
 
Lots of nonsense there, Sjor :). Ruud perfect fit for Metzelder? Built a side around wingers? Etc.. Going to bed now, will respond tomorrow.
 
The Stain said:
Lots of nonsense there, Sjor :). Ruud perfect fit for Metzelder? Built a side around wingers? Etc.. Going to bed now, will respond tomorrow.
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well, if i had to pick a certain type of player that i want to face with this CB pair i would pick Ruud's type, someone who needs service and cant do much alone. If you had Romario/Aguero/Torres or someone who is more mobile i would be in big trouble with Metzelder. Im not saying Metzelder would put Ruud in pocket and Ruud wont do anything but if we are looking for which type of striker fits my CB pair, a finisher that relies on other player service is perfect.
 
Physiocrat said:
Your Netzer Kaka comparison is quite handy. Netzer is seriously creative: Short Pass accuracy 95, Long Pass Accuracy 98,
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For comparison Riquelme has Short pass 97 and long pass 94. Maradona has 95 and 96. Pirlo 93 and 96.

Netzer is one awesome passer
 
The Stain said:
From my write up. He is being asked to focus more on defence. Is it really not plausible to think he would carry out my instructions to play more restrictive?

I'm not buying that Essien can't play a more holding role here. Some quotes:


http://articles.squarefootball.net/...holding-midfielder-in-the-premier-league.html


http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/c/chelsea/4157044.stm
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Don't really think theres an issue here. Essien covers as much ground as any midfielder I've ever seen. He can play his natural all action box to box game here along with Robson and you'll be fine.
 
MJJ said:
:lol: Do it! Do it!
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Doesn't look remotely feasible now. In any case, I like The Stain's team a lot and don't see much (if anything) wrong with it. Sjor's is more of an acquired taste (the footballuser upside down format probably has something to do with that, mind).

Would be a good game this, very close, and either team could win. You only have to go back to how hard we always found playing German teams in the early 00s and Sjor's should be an upgrade on any of them.
 
Cutch said:
Don't really think theres an issue here. Essien covers as much ground as any midfielder I've ever seen. He can play his natural all action box to box game here along with Robson and you'll be fine.
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Yups, for me it's rather bizarre that you would absolutely need a holding midfielder behind him and Robson. Would help, sure, but I'd rather have Kaká than stick a water-carrier to "mind Netzer".

Sometimes you just have to accept what the oppo has and take risks betting on what you have. Take Kaká away and suddenly Ruud looks very lonely up there.
 
antohan said:
Doesn't look remotely feasible now. In any case, I like The Stain's team a lot and don't see much (if anything) wrong with it. Sjor's is more of an acquired taste (the footballuser upside down format probably has something to do with that, mind).

Would be a good game this, very close, and either team could win. You only have to go back to how hard we always found playing German teams in the early 00s and Sjor's should be an upgrade on any of them.
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Am going to go on a very crazy path with my reinforcements if sjor is eliminated /EAP
 
Šjor Bepo said:
well, if i had to pick a certain type of player that i want to face with this CB pair i would pick Ruud's type, someone who needs service and cant do much alone. If you had Romario/Aguero/Torres or someone who is more mobile i would be in big trouble with Metzelder. Im not saying Metzelder would put Ruud in pocket and Ruud wont do anything but if we are looking for which type of striker fits my CB pair, a finisher that relies on other player service is perfect.
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I understand your point, but Ruud created some stunning goals by himself. Good thing Kaká is targeting Metzelder then, lots of pace and accurate dribbling. All my midfielders were good passers, assisters, so service isn't even an issue here.

Can't say i've built a team around someone in particular, i rather just wanted a well balanced side. It caters to Kaká/Ruud though, the obvious route to goal (they both liked roaming so they'll pull your players out of position at times). Having two great wingers gives me options to go wide to. Robson hasn't even been mentioned in this game which is good, i'll save him for the next game. A "mixed attacking style" if you will ;).

MJJ said:
Am going to go on a very crazy path with my reinforcements if sjor is eliminated /EAP
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Sure you want to mention that?
 
@Šjor Bepo

I really like your team, just needed a better defence. Could you have acquired Lizarazu somehow? Was it possible to go Lahm -> Bixente? I know you love Bastian, who doesn't? Maybe he should have been sacrificed.
 
The Stain said:
I understand your point, but Ruud created some stunning goals by himself. Good thing Kaká is targeting Metzelder then, lots of pace and accurate dribbling. All my midfielders were good passers, assisters, so service isn't even an issue here.

Can't say i've built a team around someone in particular, i rather just wanted a well balanced side. It caters to Kaká/Ruud though, the obvious route to goal (they both liked roaming so they'll pull your players out of position at times). Having two great wingers gives me options to go wide to. Robson hasn't even been mentioned in this game which is good, i'll save him for the next game. A "mixed attacking style" if you will ;).

Sure you want to mention that?
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Not a great idea. I often find once you let a player be ignored he is spent for the next game. It's an issue, because you want to focus on the players who are exploiting weaknesses or being painted as weaknesses. E.g. I didn't particularly emphasise Altafini in my game, he was against Tresor after all, not exactly an Achilles heel... but that also means it's even harder to pick up the player's case later.
 
antohan said:
Not a great idea. I often find once you let a player be ignored he is spent for the next game. It's an issue, because you want to focus on the players who are exploiting weaknesses or being painted as weaknesses. E.g. I didn't particularly emphasise Altafini in my game, he was against Tresor after all, not exactly an Achilles heel... but that also means it's even harder to pick up the player's case later.
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Well, i should have gone more on the offensive in this match but didn't really have time. Was defending my team all game which was well played by opposition. Don't think it'll be hard to emphasize Robson's importance going forward, it was sort of taken for granted in this game.
 
The Stain said:
Well, i should have gone more on the offensive in this match but didn't really have time. Was defending my team all game which was well played by opposition. Don't think it'll be hard to emphasize Robson's importance going forward, it was sort of taken for granted in this game.
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Yes, it shouldn't be too hard with Robson obviously. I wasn't referring to the specific case but to the logic of "introducing one player per game". I've tried that before in order not to stretcch myself to thin, but it doesn't work.
 
antohan said:
Yes, it shouldn't be too hard with Robson obviously. I wasn't referring to the specific case but to the logic of "introducing one player per game". I've tried that before in order not to stretcch myself to thin, but it doesn't work.
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Ah, ok. Yeah, i can imagine that strategy is preferable.
 
The Stain said:
@Šjor Bepo

I really like your team, just needed a better defence. Could you have acquired Lizarazu somehow? Was it possible to go Lahm -> Bixente? I know you love Bastian, who doesn't? Maybe he should have been sacrificed.
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Bastian > winning the game :D

great team you built and good luck next, as for me and physio....just another day in the office.
 
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