I'd say he's obviously a sweeper, but doesn't that include being a temporary CB when the situation requires it?
All Time Chain Draft - R1: MJJ/crappy vs Pat_Mustard
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
- Start date
Very hard call for me, I actually think MJJ/Crappy is the best side in the draft if it wasn't for the RB cock-up, but after long consideration I've decided to give Kempes the benefit of the doubt to take advantage of it, especially with a killer like Law in front.
Of course it does. I'm just not sure what's so hard about saying: I don't have a RB but an RCB, an LCB and a sweeper between them. As opposed to a great CB pair where some makeshift RB tucks in momentarily to allow one CB to become a libero. It just looks quite confused and I think these games can go down to the clarity of the gameplan, particularly when creating arrangements which are unfamiliar to what these players usually did.
Exactly. I'd much rather have a less "structured" formation but one that can make sense instead of putting a top player out of position and sending him doing all sorts of stuff he's not accustom to.
That's odd IMO. Because Kempes is exactly the type of attacker you want Thigao Silva to face in this situation. He is not someone who will hug the line and force Silva out wide, he will cut in almost always and allow Silva to tuck in and close out the space for him. Kempes was not a traditional winger and Silva is as good as facing a forward/striker here
Both gaffers have gone for symmetrical team-sheets when the reality and what their players prefer is altogether more lopsided.
Going for MJJ/Crappy 2-1. Sammer end up playing as a libero with Silva as an RCB with no RWB. Henry would excel in that role on the left with Marcelo as a LWB as he'll have a free role in the left-centre channel and can get close to Romario. Someone more combative than Kroos (Gattuso would have been excellent as he can play as an RCM) would have helped but I can see MJJ creating loads of chances and putting them away.
With Pat's setup I'd have preferred at least one attacking full-back to allow the widemen to drift in more. Also I'm not sure how good Gallego and Rosato are.
With Pat's setup I'd have preferred at least one attacking full-back to allow the widemen to drift in more. Also I'm not sure how good Gallego and Rosato are.
Ours is much more in tune with reality. Figo and Henry's positions are very close to what it would be. As is Marcelo's and Silva's. Only thing that requires correction is positions of Kroos and Vieira, with latter being deeper than being shown.
Gallego was Argentina's starting DM in their 1978 WC winning team, and a Copa Libertadores winner with River Plate and a frequent inclusion in their all-time XIs. I watched the 1978 WC Final before drafting him, and have subsequently watched a bit more of him, and he looks a brilliant if low key defensive midfielder to me. He was playing in a fairly demanding set up, with Passarella surging forward from centre back and Ardiles playing basically the same attacking right-sided midfield role that Schuster is here, but he just always seemed to be in the right place and he was a hard-tackling, feisty bastard as well. He was no Pirlo in terms of spreading the ball around, but he looked an astute short passer too who rarely gave the ball away. I'd made several utterly boring gifs that I swiftly lost, but here's a fresh one of him disposessing Neeskens and seeming annoyed afterwards:
Nothing fancy, but illustrates the type of player I think I've drafted - basically a tough-tackling, positionally astute DM proven at the highest level.
Rosato I'm less confident about, as he was already drafted for me when I took over this team and I never got around to watching much significant footage of him. Wiki has the usual platitudes:
and he seems to come into the equation as a candidate for a 2nd or more often 3rd choice Italy XI - still an excellent defender but no Baresi basically. What he's got going for him here is the proven partnership with Schnellinger in possibly Milan's greatest pre-Baresi defence, and a great performance in the 1970 WC semi-final vs Germany against one of the few forwards who can replicate Romario's explosiveness and movement. That match finished 1-1 after normal time, with Schnellinger scoring in the 91st minute for Germany. Rosato was substituted and Muller swiftly scored twice
. Rosato also did this when he was on the pitch:
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Ah fair enough. This is certainly mid-career Schuster and he won't be marauding down the right wing - the idea is more that he can still swing in a great cross or cross-field pass on occasion from a Beckham-esque wide right midfielder area, which I think is a reasonable ask from any version of Schuster.
Sure he can, no probs.
No problem mate. I'm no expert on him and I absolutely believe Romario would cause him problems, but he really does seem an excellent centre back.
Such a properly dirty match that one. There's probably four yellow cards in that single GIF. Loved it.Gallego was Argentina's starting DM in their 1978 WC winning team, and a Copa Libertadores winner with River Plate and a frequent inclusion in their all-time XIs. I watched the 1978 WC Final before drafting him, and have subsequently watched a bit more of him, and he looks a brilliant if low key defensive midfielder to me. He was playing in a fairly demanding set up, with Passarella surging forward from centre back and Ardiles playing basically the same attacking right-sided midfield role that Schuster is here, but he just always seemed to be in the right place and he was a hard-tackling, feisty bastard as well. He was no Pirlo in terms of spreading the ball around, but he looked an astute short passer too who rarely gave the ball away. I'd made several utterly boring gifs that I swiftly lost, but here's a fresh one of him disposessing Neeskens and seeming annoyed afterwards:
Nothing fancy, but illustrates the type of player I think I've drafted - basically a tough-tackling, positionally astute DM proven at the highest level.
It was sordid. An awful match to watch, although the Kempes goals and Gallego generally being a hard bastard made it tolerable for me given that I wanted to draft them. The scoreline isn't likely to be turned around, but the thought of Gallego drop-kicking Kroos into the air continues to amuse me It depends on the situation? He obviously won't be playing with a freedom that a libero would in a five man backline. I could have answered that he is a sweeper but obviously during the stretches of play when Thiago will go wide he will drop back and play as a centre back. Thus he has more responsibility than a normal sweeper would.
I'm seeing this one a bit differently today than I was yesterday. Last night I was leaning towards MJJ/Crappy but today, that midfield of Gallego, Schuster, Chalrton is just screaming quality at me. I also think Simonsen and Kempes would be really effective and I prefer Pats fullbacks.
But then the opposition have the better centre backs as well as a front 3 of Figo, Henry and Romario. The 3 matches that are live right now are among the most difficult to choose between that I've seen in these drafts.
But then the opposition have the better centre backs as well as a front 3 of Figo, Henry and Romario. The 3 matches that are live right now are among the most difficult to choose between that I've seen in these drafts.
The midfield is the biggest quality differential on show here. Guardiola and Kroos will play some lovely football on the ball but his three will have serious problems when they lose possession against Schuster and Charlton. Just imagine Charlton running at Guardiola and do the right thing
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Try having another nap before you vote
I think I need one. Honestly these 3 games are ridiculous. I feel a bit embarrassed going through to the next round with my lesser spotted Baresi brother and a dressing room full of attacking midfielders/Number10's.Forcing myself to make a call here.
I bloody love MJJ's front 3 but I think with the better midfield and more balanced backline, I'm going to go with Pat. Nothing in it though and I hope to god I meet neither in the next round!
I bloody love MJJ's front 3 but I think with the better midfield and more balanced backline, I'm going to go with Pat. Nothing in it though and I hope to god I meet neither in the next round!
You also failed to answer this bit at all
I did, I said it was average. I dont think you have a side that can be nullified by playing a deeper or a higher line, since you have enough in attack to make both lines suffer. No obvious weakness in attack or midfield at all.
Sorry, I missed that when I was skimming through the thread again.
Average line seems a fair call tactically on balance, but it does open up more space in midfield that Kroos and Guardiola will struggle to close down. Unless there's a huge gap between your defence and attack it will also keep Romario pretty far from our goal when you regain possession which I'm happy with.
With sammer there to aid them, they wont need to do a lot of closing down. Similarly, while my team lacks in work-rate it doesnt in creativity or passing. Either kroos, sammer or guardiola can release a perfectly lofted ball for my front three who are extremely quick. Am not sure about gallego so wont comment a lot on him, but I struggle to think of too many midfielders who can stop a prime vieira with or without the ball.
If that means that Sammer is coming out of defence into midfield as per his libero prime then your defensive line is going to be shambolic.
This is where my 'square peg in round hole' argument in the OP came from. As great as he was, Sammer can't simultaneously play as a CB in a four man defence and still be a factor in midfield as he was in his prime. Either he maintains the shape of the defensive line in a back four and he has no influence versus Charlton and Schuster until they've already broke beyond your midfield, or else he's stepping out of defence when I'm in possession and you're left with Thiago Silva, Kohler and maybe Marcelo trying to hold a line against my attack.
I had to vote for Pat here. His front 3 is just tasty and will cause all sorts of problems for MJJ's back line. The movement from Pat's front 3 + Charlton and the occasional forays of Schnellinger and Vogts will be problematic for MJJ's defence, and Pat's midfield is quite a good counter to MJJ's midfield.
The fact that there's no proper wing back to help out Thiago Silva out wide is what gives me some concern for MJJ's team. That left side is way too open even if Pat doesn't have a proper left winger taking that on.
The fact that there's no proper wing back to help out Thiago Silva out wide is what gives me some concern for MJJ's team. That left side is way too open even if Pat doesn't have a proper left winger taking that on.
Sammer looks excellent and right at home here with Silva tucking in next to him IMO.
I think tactically it's spot on, the only improvement would be someone like Bergomi rather than Silva, someone with a record of doing well in a wider defensive position.
I think tactically it's spot on, the only improvement would be someone like Bergomi rather than Silva, someone with a record of doing well in a wider defensive position.
With all the discussion on Romario (rightly so as he'll cause my centre backs huge problems) I've allowed another draft game to pass by with little discussion of Denis Law
A Utd legend, a prolific goalscorer and a brilliant footballer. Both myself and Joga Bonito have posted this video before, but its well worth a watch for anyone that hasn't seen it:
If Sammer really is stepping into midfield when my team's in possession as per MJJ's last post, Law is going to have a field day against what remains of his defensive line.
A Utd legend, a prolific goalscorer and a brilliant footballer. Both myself and Joga Bonito have posted this video before, but its well worth a watch for anyone that hasn't seen it:
If Sammer really is stepping into midfield when my team's in possession as per MJJ's last post, Law is going to have a field day against what remains of his defensive line.
Gone for @Pat_Mustard here.
He does lack width with two defensive FBs, no two ways about it but he does have more than enough pace and fluidity amongst his forward line to stretch MJJ/crappy's defense. Obviously having Charlton, who used to play as a orthodox outside left, and Schuster in the midfield would help immensely as they can drop into the channels/flanks when needed to provide quality service from out wide whenever needed. Tbh, the thought of Schuster-Charlton-Simonsen-Kempes linking up with one of the most complete forwards of all time - Law - is seriously a mouth-watering prospect and I can see it working extremely well.
Also I can see his midfield having the edge against Guardiola-Vieira-Kroos which looks a bit light-weight off the ball, don't think they will be able to handle the verve of Charlton and the finesse of Schuster. It would have made more sense to have a defensive midfielder as opposed to the playmaking Guardiola there. If the intention was to play quick tempo and direct football from Guardiola to the pacey forwards, then it is Kroos that doesn't really make too much sense imo. It would have been better to go with a more mobile or a better goalscoring attacking midfielder, than a metronomic central midfielder. Don't think a possession based system is the way to go with the type of forwards MJJ/crappy has either.
I can see Pat's attack having more joy in this game as opposed to MJJ as I can see Simonsen having the beating of Marcelo here and I'd back Kempes against Thiago Silva, even if he was in his preferred CB role. Then again I have been known for underrating Thiago at times, so will cut him some slack.
Another aspect that is being neglected is the security that two defensive FBs offer. Does it make the side less fluid and make them more reliant on the forwards? Yes it does but if that attack consists of what Pat has to offer, then it isn't such a bad thing is it, as it gives them the room and complete freedom to do what they do higher up the pitch, whilst the defenders stick to their duties. Can't think of a better RB than Vogts to deal with Henry, given that he took out one Cruyff playing a fairly similar inside left role in the 1974 WC Final. Schnellinger too is widely regarded as one of the best defensive LBs of all time and him against Figo will be a great battle.
I can see Romario having some joy against Rosato-Ruggeri here and MJJ has constructed a great side but one that perhaps dropped off a wee bit towards the end with the Kroos and T.Silva at RB picks. I'm obviously biased, I admit, as I have favourites in Pat's team and I also feel that some of the oldies aren't getting the credit they deserve (and I'm drunk...) so everything I say should be taken with a pinch of salt.
He does lack width with two defensive FBs, no two ways about it but he does have more than enough pace and fluidity amongst his forward line to stretch MJJ/crappy's defense. Obviously having Charlton, who used to play as a orthodox outside left, and Schuster in the midfield would help immensely as they can drop into the channels/flanks when needed to provide quality service from out wide whenever needed. Tbh, the thought of Schuster-Charlton-Simonsen-Kempes linking up with one of the most complete forwards of all time - Law - is seriously a mouth-watering prospect and I can see it working extremely well.
Also I can see his midfield having the edge against Guardiola-Vieira-Kroos which looks a bit light-weight off the ball, don't think they will be able to handle the verve of Charlton and the finesse of Schuster. It would have made more sense to have a defensive midfielder as opposed to the playmaking Guardiola there. If the intention was to play quick tempo and direct football from Guardiola to the pacey forwards, then it is Kroos that doesn't really make too much sense imo. It would have been better to go with a more mobile or a better goalscoring attacking midfielder, than a metronomic central midfielder. Don't think a possession based system is the way to go with the type of forwards MJJ/crappy has either.
I can see Pat's attack having more joy in this game as opposed to MJJ as I can see Simonsen having the beating of Marcelo here and I'd back Kempes against Thiago Silva, even if he was in his preferred CB role. Then again I have been known for underrating Thiago at times, so will cut him some slack.
Another aspect that is being neglected is the security that two defensive FBs offer. Does it make the side less fluid and make them more reliant on the forwards? Yes it does but if that attack consists of what Pat has to offer, then it isn't such a bad thing is it, as it gives them the room and complete freedom to do what they do higher up the pitch, whilst the defenders stick to their duties. Can't think of a better RB than Vogts to deal with Henry, given that he took out one Cruyff playing a fairly similar inside left role in the 1974 WC Final. Schnellinger too is widely regarded as one of the best defensive LBs of all time and him against Figo will be a great battle.
I can see Romario having some joy against Rosato-Ruggeri here and MJJ has constructed a great side but one that perhaps dropped off a wee bit towards the end with the Kroos and T.Silva at RB picks. I'm obviously biased, I admit, as I have favourites in Pat's team and I also feel that some of the oldies aren't getting the credit they deserve (and I'm drunk...) so everything I say should be taken with a pinch of salt.
Oops, sorry chaps, whatever time I had available I had to keep up with my game.
I found Pat's attack and overall coherence and the simple but effective use of his players very attractive. It certainly helped him to have those two fullbacks there and the Sammer backline looked like it would work on paper but confusing as far as the instructions/expectations went. I was leaning towards him but what kept stopping me was Romario whom I would have expected to cause all sorts of problems were goals are ultimately scored more easily: right in the heart of the box.
Excellent drafting by both, @Pat_Mustard played a blinder after picking up this side and I'd argue he wound up with a better side than he was constructing with Skizzo. I fully expect @MJJ and @crappycraperson to sort out the mess they got into after Lahm got picked. Clear favourites going forward.
Now watch Joga nab Ruggeri and Schuster next
I found Pat's attack and overall coherence and the simple but effective use of his players very attractive. It certainly helped him to have those two fullbacks there and the Sammer backline looked like it would work on paper but confusing as far as the instructions/expectations went. I was leaning towards him but what kept stopping me was Romario whom I would have expected to cause all sorts of problems were goals are ultimately scored more easily: right in the heart of the box.
Excellent drafting by both, @Pat_Mustard played a blinder after picking up this side and I'd argue he wound up with a better side than he was constructing with Skizzo. I fully expect @MJJ and @crappycraperson to sort out the mess they got into after Lahm got picked. Clear favourites going forward.
Now watch Joga nab Ruggeri and Schuster next
Congratulations @MJJ and @crappycraperson
Thanks. I thought we would lose this game, so pleasantly surprised