All Time Chain Draft - R1: mazhar13 vs Green_Smiley

[mazhar13]

I feel like most are not realising the sort of player Rivaldo really is, thinking that he was an attacking midfielder who loved to get on the ball and just take long shots from outside. He was a second striker for much of his career, and he only became an attacking midfielder in his 30's when he didn't have the energy to make the runs beyond the defence.

I'll put in a couple of vids demonstrating Rivaldo's goalscoring instinct in his time in Barcelona.



@Skizzo hopefully this gives you an idea that I still have penetration in my team.

 

[Skizzo]

You said it yourself though...He played as a second striker. It's all well and good him being on the ball and taking long shots...But that's harder to accomplish with no striker "pinning back" the defence to create that space for him.

Maybe it's just me though. I'll have a longer think about it I'm always open to be persuaded

 

[mazhar13]

You said it yourself though...He played as a second striker. It's all well and good him being on the ball and taking long shots...But that's harder to accomplish with no striker "pinning back" the defence to create that space for him.

Maybe it's just me though. I'll have a longer think about it I'm always open to be persuaded

That's not what second strikers do, though. They have more vertical movement than the actual strikers as well as more creativity and better passing, but otherwise, as the name says, they're still strikers. As the videos above have shown, he was making incisive runs beyond defences as well as picking the ball up in deeper areas and dragging defences around/dribbling through them.

The advantage I have without having a set striker is that Olsen will have to worry about more threats to deal with. With a leading striker, one of the central defenders can occupy him, and that can leave Olsen to do the sweeping work/picking up on the second striker/attacking midfielder. Without an actual striker, though, it'll be tough for GS' defenders to merely follow my forwards without leaving spaces in behind for others to get into.

 

[Tuppet]

Decided to go with green_smiley on this one. His attack of Nordahl, Rivera & Schiaffino is just incredible, one which I don't see Mazhar's defense coping up with at all. I don't really rate Tasotti in this particular role, and from whatever I have read on Nielsen he seem like a decent center back but nothing special, while his two genuine world class defenders in Carlos and Zanetti are tasked to provide width. On the other end Mazhar's attacking setup is well, a bit creative, and it might even work. But I honestly see no way for his team to outscore green_smiley's team. Sorry Mazhar, a proper striker or world class defender and thing might have been different as I really rate your midfield.

 

[mazhar13]

And for anyone who doubts Savicevic in a free forward role, here's a video of him tormenting the legendary Milan backline, particularly Baresi and Maldini. Watch how, even when he gets treble-teamed, he'd keep the ball and create spaces for others. Pay attention to a sweet assist that he makes in this match as well.

 

[Paolo Di Canio]

Voted @green_smiley , Nordhal, Rivera, Lerby, Krol, Cabrini, Häßler, that team is good enough to go all the way in my opinion, Although I can see mazhar's full backs causing alot of problems, the lack of an out and out striker could be a good thing for mazhar, with Savecivic, Rivaldo and di Bartolomei popping up in pockets which will cause smileys team to lose shape, his midfield will have there hands full with Falcao, Jugovic and Popescu no doubt, but smileys wide men can expose space left in behind Carlos and Zanetti also, Rivera will aquire constant attention from Popescu and Jugovic

 

[mazhar13]

Decided to go with green_smiley on this one. His attack of Nordahl, Rivera & Schiaffino is just incredible, one which I don't see Mazhar's defense coping up with at all. I don't really rate Tasotti in this particular role, and from whatever I have read on Nielsen he seem like a decent center back, while his two genuine world class defenders in Carlos and Zanetti are tasked to provide width. On the other end Mazhar's attacking setup is well a bit creative, and it might even work. But I honestly see no way for his team to outscore green_smiley's team. Sorry Mazhar, a proper striker or world class defender and thing might have been different as I really rate your midfield.

Tassotti isn't merely your typical full back, though. His experiences as a central defender in Lazio helped him develop his other defensive skills that most full backs don't develop, and this was essential for Milan to have a solid backline. For their free-flowing 4-4-2 to work, they need defenders who can take up great positions and suss out the danger early on, and Tassotti was a key part of it. It's quite sad to see how underrated Tassotti is in his defensive skills because his defensive game allowed Baresi to to push forward and become a playmaker for Milan.

Zanetti and Roberto Carlos are very good at providing width on their own as both have done it on countless occasions. Zanetti has played on the wing several times and was effective there, and his attacking qualities made him a very useful full back going forward as well. Plus, he's more than just your typical wing back. His intelligence and ability to play in midfield also means that he's defensively astute and not at all reliant on physical qualities to defend. Roberto Carlos, on the other hand, has so much pace, stamina, determination, and aggression that he wasn't as much of a defensive liability as he's sometimes made out to be. Going forward, we all know of his qualities, of course, and no one else has run the wide area like him since (other than Maicon and Dani Alves).

RE: a proper striker, that would make things easier for GS. A striker up front would leave Olsen with an easier job to sweep up and close down my second striker and anyone else making runs through. I want to keep his defence guessing, and a defence consisting of Krol, Collovati, and Olsen has to be taken on and beaten through more unconventional means. With Savicevic and Rivaldo up front with di Bartolomei behind them, GS' back 3 will not know who to close down, whose runs to watch, etc. And to say that I don't have a world class defender saddens as I have a world class defender in Tassotti, a treble (yes, he won a European Cup as well) winner in Nielsen, and a solid and reliable libero in Popescu who was even successful for Galatasaray, beating an Arsenal side with Henry, Bergkamp, their main Dutch left winger, and Vieira.

 

[mazhar13]

but smileys wide men can expose space left in behind Carlos and Zanetti also, Rivera will aquire constant attention from Popescu and Jugovic

Why does everyone think that Tassotti and Nielsen will strictly stay in the middle? As wide central defenders in a back 3, they will be drifting out to the wide areas to deal with counter-attacks from wide areas and slow down the attack enough for the wing backs to recover (or win the ball). Tassotti will do with composure and calmness, and Nielsen will provide bite and aggression (as well as fouls to break up the rhythm). With Popescu around to fill up the spaces in the middle, I'll also have Falcao around to prevent GS' team from breaking forward in pace. When things get slowed down, though, the game will be tight for GS' team. My midfielders (and Popescu at times) will make sure that there's no openings for GS' team to exploit, Roberto Carlos will give Causio a tough time on the ball, Rivera will find it tough to find space with Falcao, Jugovic, or Popescu closing him down (depending on where he pops up) and Nordahl won't get a free ride up front with a strong physical player in Nielsen to face.

 

[mazhar13]

This is what my situation will be like when I'm facing counter-attacks. There's no way that there will really be openings for them to exploit. Nielsen was a capable man-marker who was aggressive and tight on his man. Popescu will pick up on Nordahl's runs, and Tassotti will do the same with Schiaffino if the ball's played out on GS' right side. If it's Schiaffino picking up the ball, then Tassotti is capable of staying on his feet and slowing down Schiaffino with his excellent man-marking ability and defensive composure. If Rivera picks, up, there's Falcao/Jugovic around to close down Rivera quickly, but if Rivera is able to play and out ball, then my midfielders can go back and regain the team shape, thus slowing down GS' accordingly.

Once my team's settled in their shape, this is what is likely to happen. As you can see, the field is very tight for GS' creative midfield players to operate in. Also, the way I've picked my team, I've made sure that my team won't be prone to sleeping in defence or losing their shape. Tassotti will be key here in dealing with Schiaffino and making sure that he doesn't leave us too open on the right side. Zanetti is very apt in his defending, overall, and he will be capable of sussing out dangers whether from Cabrini or whoever else is coming through our right channel. On the left, Causio vs. Roberto Carlos will be an even battle, and if Causio does beat Roberto Carlos, he'll be facing the tough Nielsen who is very capable of stopping dribblers with his aggressive playing style. Nordahl's movements can be read by Popescu if needed, or Nielsen can pick up Nordahl in the box and keep him unsettled. Rivera won't get much joy in midfield as well with Falcao and Popescu keeping things tight in midfield. Jugovic will provide added support and energy in midfield to make things tough for any midfielder trying to break forward.

Our team is experienced in keeping a solid, organised shape in defence, and it's unlikely that GS' attacking players will be able to create openings in my defence. Tassotti was a key component of one of the most solid back lines ever. Popescu has shut down several attacking teams in his time with his tactical awareness and reading of the game (along with his experiences as a central defender for Steaua and PSV). Nielsen was a key player at the back for Denmark to allow them to play with freedom and flair, and he was a key defender in PSV's treble-winning campaign. Falcao is one of the best #5's to ever come through, and with his work rate, his other defensive qualities will ensure that GS' midfield will have a tough time controlling the game. Jugovic has played a sacrificial, more defensive midfield role for much of his career even if he was a talented attacking player, and his completeness allows him to be useful on both ends of the pitch. Then, you have Roberto Carlos, who dominated the left flank for many years for Real Madrid and Brazil, and Zanetti who is one of Inter's best full backs ever and defensively reliable enough to play in a defensive midfield role as well.

 

[antohan]

For those of you who voted for GS, I'd like to know what made you do that. At this moment, this thread's too quiet, and I'd like some more activity in here just to be able to do some discussions rather than just talk to myself.

@VivaJanuzaj @Skizzo @Kazi @Mani @PedroMendez

@Fergus' son Are you still not convinced by di Bartolomei in his free midfield role and Rivaldo + Savicevic in their free forward roles?

Crikey, EAP may not get BotD after all

Also, if Popescu is always the one picking Nordahl, why on earth is he at the base of a diamond and not bang in the middle of a 5-3-2?

 

[mazhar13]

Crikey, EAP may not get BotD after all

Also, if Popescu is always the one picking Nordahl, why on earth is he at the base of a diamond and not bang in the middle of a 5-3-2?

Popescu isn't always picking on Nordahl, though. That image represents one situation, and I can create 5 more images presenting 5 different situations, but I felt like I've already covered them with my general points, and I believe we can understand that those situations will, of course, arise. Also, it's not a strict 4-4-2 diamond or a strict 5-3-2. The formation itself is fluid and depends on the phase of play. Sometimes, Popescu may need to pick up Nordahl if one of the other central defenders goes after a winger cutting side or Rivera pushing up. Other times, Nielsen could stop Nordahl with Popescu going after Rivera/Schiaffino/whoever is in the hole. Going forward, Popescu may stay back to retain possession with a midfielder coming back to move the ball forward via a pass/passes/dribble. Other times, Popescu may push forward and push the rest of the team up in a diamond setup, pegging GS back. All in all, I'm not setting out super-specific and super-strict instructions. I've already mentioned that the defensive system is a mixture of zonal and man-to-man marking with Nielsen and Roberto Carlos taking up more of a man-to-man role than others. Offensively, there's also lots of fluidity with some structure.

 

[green_smiley]

di Bartolomei isn't a box-to-box midfielder. He's an attacking midfielder with the freedom to dictate the game similar to Platini or Valderrama. For who'll cover the back 3, you fail to realise that, given that you only have 1 main striker, there's no point in me having to have Popescu stay back. The sweeping that he'll do will be for when one of the wider central defenders push up. Otherwise, if they're in their place, Popescu will have the chance to close down Rivera and make things tough for him. If that isn't the case, then I have Falcao who can make life tough for Rivera.

You have di Bartolomei as an attacking midfielder, and Jugovic and Falcao whom are better in attacking than defending. It is not just Nordahl you have to worry about. You also need someone to handle Schiaffino. If Popescu does not stay back, who will keep a close eye on Rivera when your team has the ball? At any time when your team's attack breaks down, there are high chance that I will score from counter, given the pace that my team has and the space in front

My main deep-lying ball players are Popescu and Falcao. Popescu is a player who's capable of starting off attacks, and if Falcao is ever closed down, Popescu will be the outlet to start off attacks. Then, with di Bartolomei in a free midfield role, he'll be allowed to drop back to look for the ball and support Falcao. He has done this many times when he wasn't a libero/deep-lying playmaker in his later years. Plus, with di Bartolomei's vertical movement, Lerby will naturally gravitate towards him, leaving spaces for Rivaldo and Savicevic to exploit. Plus, you're forgetting about Jugovic, who, as the video demonstrates, is able to start off attacks and build up play with his technique on the ball, range of passing, and vision. With Falcao, Jugovic, Popescu, and di Bartolomei, I have a diamond that can run the game from midfield. With your almost man-to-man setup in midfield, this will play to my advantage as the front 2 + wing backs can exploit the gaps left by your midfield.

Question is: how much chance does Popescu have to start off attack and no holding midfielder to cover him? I would argue that with your team not having a clear target man and I have Lerby covering, Olsen has more opportunity to start off attack than Popescu

On di Bartolomei, again, you are asking too much from him - as an attacking midfielder, then drop back supporting Falcao. Even if he is able to transition from one role to another, the time taken will be long enough for my defense to regroup, given he is not a pacy or energetic type. Not sure why you think Lerby will be pulled towards di Bartolomei. Olsen will handle him when di Bartolomei ventures forward, while the rest of my defense will stop di Bartolomei's pass from reaching towards his supposing target

What defensive qualities? All I've seen is a winger who was very good at supporting teammates in defence with his work rate. Since you don't seem to have a defender who's comfortable drifting out to the right, you're left in a precarious situation where it's just Causio vs. Roberto Carlos. I think many of us will agree that that's a battle that Roberto Carlos would win. It's not like Causio is a solid man-marker or good tracker of players. He's a winger, not a wing back! Plus, you have no GIF's demonstrating these supposed defensive qualities of Causio's.

Spoiler: Causio

Intercepting at right position

Winning the ball back despite losing the ball in the beginning

Tracking attacking player with his pace

To think that Krol can easily close down Savicevic is quite naive, in my opinion. This is the same Savicevic who tormented Barcelona's back line in the 1994 Champions League final in the exact same role I'm currently playing him in. He caused lots of torment for Barjuan and Koeman with his dribbling and movement, and his performance in that match epitomises the way he plays for my team. With his close control and dribbling, Krol will have a tough time dealing with Savicevic individually. If this remains a 1-on-1 battle, Savicevic will cause lots of problems for Krol with his dribbling, flair, and unpredictability.

Don't equate Krol with the likes of Barjuan and Koeman lol

Also, my main threats are from playing breaking your defensive line with runs from deep. These runs can come from Savicevic, di Bartolomei, Rivaldo, a wing back, or one of my box-to-box midfielders. This lack of a presence up front means that Olsen will have a tougher time sweeping up at the back as I'll threats from multiple angles and areas depending on the situation. If the ball goes out wide, I have confidence in Rivaldo winning the ball in the air or di Bartolomei ghosting into the box to get a shot on goal. I have full confidence in Rivaldo, Savicevic, Roberto Carlos, and di Bartolomei taking dangerous long shots from outside the box when they can. Inside the box, my front 2 + di Bartolomei are all capable finishers. Without some main presence up front, GS' defence will have a tough time picking out a threat or two.

I think this point hurts your team quite significantly. Run all you want, your team needs to come close to my box in order to have a shot at the goal, my defense is well enough to handle it, and when your attack breaks down halfway, the counter will be

 

[Physiocrat]

Voted GS. I just don't see many goals in Mazhar's team- the lack of a proper striker or goalscoring #10 is a serious problem. On the other side I can see Nordahl getting one on after a quick break. There isn't much in it but I reckon GS will win 1-0

 

[Mani]

Sorry Mazhar, I'm not a fan of No.10 or winger taking CF position, you clearly lacked the front men here, on the other hand Nordahl/Schiaffino/Rivera would be too good for your defense to deal with.

 

[green_smiley]

 

[green_smiley]

 

[mazhar13]

You have di Bartolomei as an attacking midfielder, and Jugovic and Falcao whom are better in attacking than defending. It is not just Nordahl you have to worry about. You also need someone to handle Schiaffino. If Popescu does not stay back, who will keep a close eye on Rivera when your team has the ball? At any time when your team's attack breaks down, there are high chance that I will score from counter, given the pace that my team has and the space in front

Popescu pushing forward does not equal him being in central midfield. By pushing up, I meant that he'll go beyond the defensive line but still be behind Falcao and Jugovic. Basically, he'll allow the rest of the team to push up and put pressure on your team. This will only happen when my team's settled in possession and not in threat of losing the ball. Otherwise, expect Falcao to drop back and get involved in the build-up with di Bartolomei and Jugovic supporting him.

Question is: how much chance does Popescu have to start off attack and no holding midfielder to cover him? I would argue that with your team not having a clear target man and I have Lerby covering, Olsen has more opportunity to start off attack than Popescu

On di Bartolomei, again, you are asking too much from him - as an attacking midfielder, then drop back supporting Falcao. Even if he is able to transition from one role to another, the time taken will be long enough for my defense to regroup, given he is not a pacy or energetic type. Not sure why you think Lerby will be pulled towards di Bartolomei. Olsen will handle him when di Bartolomei ventures forward, while the rest of my defense will stop di Bartolomei's pass from reaching towards his supposing target

Defensively, he isn't going to drop back that far. He'll only stay up and make sure that Lerby/Olsen doesn't get much time on the ball (whoever you've set going up). Also, on your point RE: Olsen pushing up and Lerby going back, that doesn't make sense. Lerby has always been a box-to-box midfielder, and he's never played in a deep-lying playmaker role. His energetic style of play means that he won't tend to hold back and cover for Olsen all the time. With his willingness to push up and get involved, there will be ample space for the front 3 to exploit. That's why I had Lerby pushed up farther.

Also, I talk about Lerby picking up di Bartolomei because won't exclusively be in the final third. He will outnumber the midfield area, forcing Lerby to track him, which leaves space for Savicevic and Rivaldo to take and create even more openings. Di Bartolomei isn't a second striker, so don't expect him to just stay up and solely be involved in the final third. However, do expect him to ghost into goalscoring positions particularly when the ball goes out wide. That's where he'll catch out your defence when they are occupied by others around them.

Don't equate Krol with the likes of Barjuan and Koeman lol

Okay, how about Maldini and Baresi? Savicevic gave them and others of the great Milan team a great runaround with an immaculate performance that resulted in an assist for him and a 1-1 draw for Red Star. If you watch that video again, pay attention to how Red Star's attacking midfielder went and scored the goal; that's what Rivaldo will be doing, and that's how I'll be getting my goals: runs beyond the defensive line.

I think this point hurts your team quite significantly. Run all you want, your team needs to come close to my box in order to have a shot at the goal, my defense is well enough to handle it, and when your attack breaks down halfway, the counter will be

Oh, they will. Savicevic and Rivaldo aren't pure attacking midfielders. Both have played as a second striker/inside forward for much of their career, and they'll frequently be in and around the box looking for chances. Again, watch the Rivaldo clips to see how often he entered the box and was in goalscoring positions.

And counters? No problem. Roberto Carlos isn't a slouch in recovering his position, and my defenders are well-suited to slowing down attacks with their positioning, marking, and anticipation. If a 32-year-old Popescu could keep Henry, Bergkamp, and Overmars at bay, then he's sure to not have much issue dealing with Nordahl in his peak years. His experiences as a central defender also helps him in this regard. You also have Nielsen who's no slouch himself and is determined enough to recover his ground and put in challenges.

Also, I have to really say this: too many people are underrating Tassotti here. Tassotti wasn't a slouch himself, and in no way will Schiaffino have joy against him. Tassotti's defensive skills made him the main player under Sacchi, and with Baresi often pushing up, he often found himsef in a central defensive role. Yes, even as a right back under Sacchi, he played in central defense in several matches and even as a right back whenever Baresi would push up. In counterattacks, Tassotti would stick close to runners and shepherd them away from dangerous areas. Either that, or he'd intercept any pass that would come his way. There is no way Schiaffino would have an easy beating on Tassotti.

Voted GS. I just don't see many goals in Mazhar's team- the lack of a proper striker or goalscoring #10 is a serious problem. On the other side I can see Nordahl getting one on after a quick break. There isn't much in it but I reckon GS will win 1-0

A proper striker would have made GS' job easier. Without a proper striker, Collovati will not know whether to maintain his ground or track Rivaldo/another attacking player, and this will leave space on the left side for Roberto Carlos to exploit. With Causio being forced back, it won't be easy for GS' team to attack from their right side. Then, you have Savicevic attracting Krol towards him, and with his immaculate ball control, technique, and dribbling, he's bound to create spaces for others. The lack of a proper striker only allows to pursue more options when going forward and leave us more unpredictable. You only have to see how Roma and Barcelona performed without proper strikers in their team to realise the danger of not having to pick up a front man.

Also, the lack of a goalscoring #10? That's di Bartolomei. In this more free role, he'll be allowed to take up more goalscoring positions a la Lampard or Gerrard. Jugovic and Falcao behind di Bartolomei provide him ample cover to play like this.

 

[mazhar13]

Also, @green_smiley, those images aren't the be-all and end-all. They portray certain specific match situations, and I only use them to visualise the point I make about my zonal-man-to-man hybrid that I have. Do you think Falcao/Jugovic will be very high up the pitch? They aren't the sort of midfielders who frequently enter the final third, rather preferring to stay in midfield and play passes through to runners or at the feet of players in dangerous areas. Both are also quite energetic work horses in midfield, and they won't struggle to go back and set up a solid shape.

And RE: the Olsen point, again, I don't see the point in Lerby playing the holding midfield role. His natural game will prevent him from holding his position. Therefore, Olsen pushing up will leave open spaces for Savicevic and Rivaldo to exploit on the counter, and then there's di Bartolomei as well who can score goals.

My team's zonal + man-to-man defensive setup will make sure that GS' team will be stifled. Again, I can set up tons of different images showing every single phase of play possible, but I'm sure most can understand that my team has it set up defensively to stifle an attack as great as GS'. Also, going forward, GS' won't find it easy at all. I am guaranteed to get goals just with the fluidity and unpredictability of my team. You only have to look at Man. Utd. 2007/08 to see how deadly a team can be without a proper striker holding the front line.

 

[Gio]

The Nielsen pick actually looks quite astute given the match-up with big Nordahl.

 

[Balu]

Those are beautiful. Why hasn't anyone done that before?

 

[green_smiley]

And RE: the Olsen point, again, I don't see the point in Lerby playing the holding midfield role. His natural game will prevent him from holding his position. Therefore, Olsen pushing up will leave open spaces for Savicevic and Rivaldo to exploit on the counter, and then there's di Bartolomei as well who can score goals.

In Ajax, maybe not. But Lerby is the holding midfielder when he played together with Olsen for Denmark national team

 

[green_smiley]

Also, @green_smiley, those images aren't the be-all and end-all. They portray certain specific match situations, and I only use them to visualise the point I make about my zonal-man-to-man hybrid that I have. Do you think Falcao/Jugovic will be very high up the pitch? They aren't the sort of midfielders who frequently enter the final third, rather preferring to stay in midfield and play passes through to runners or at the feet of players in dangerous areas. Both are also quite energetic work horses in midfield, and they won't struggle to go back and set up a solid shape.

Makes even less sense if Rivaldo and Savicevic has to drop deep to create, with Falcao and Jugovic staying in midfield, because there is no one to feed to upfront. Which also means I do not have to worry about Falcao and Jugovic's scoring threat

What's more baffling in your first diagram is that Rivera is behind Falcao and Jugovic!

 

[green_smiley]

Defensively, he isn't going to drop back that far. He'll only stay up and make sure that Lerby/Olsen doesn't get much time on the ball (whoever you've set going up). Also, on your point RE: Olsen pushing up and Lerby going back, that doesn't make sense. Lerby has always been a box-to-box midfielder, and he's never played in a deep-lying playmaker role. His energetic style of play means that he won't tend to hold back and cover for Olsen all the time. With his willingness to push up and get involved, there will be ample space for the front 3 to exploit. That's why I had Lerby pushed up farther.

See my previous post

Also, I talk about Lerby picking up di Bartolomei because won't exclusively be in the final third. He will outnumber the midfield area, forcing Lerby to track him, which leaves space for Savicevic and Rivaldo to take and create even more openings.

You are not the manager. I am

Okay, how about Maldini and Baresi? Savicevic gave them and others of the great Milan team a great runaround with an immaculate performance that resulted in an assist for him and a 1-1 draw for Red Star. If you watch that video again, pay attention to how Red Star's attacking midfielder went and scored the goal; that's what Rivaldo will be doing, and that's how I'll be getting my goals: runs beyond the defensive line.

I could show you how Nordahl scored all his 210 league goals for AC Milan against the toughest Serie A teams. Does that mean I score more goals than you possibly can?

Oh, they will. Savicevic and Rivaldo aren't pure attacking midfielders. Both have played as a second striker/inside forward for much of their career, and they'll frequently be in and around the box looking for chances. Again, watch the Rivaldo clips to see how often he entered the box and was in goalscoring positions.

Exactly. They need to be close to the box to be any kind of threat. This also means their attacking pattern is no longer as unpredictable as you think will be

Also, I have to really say this: too many people are underrating Tassotti here. Tassotti wasn't a slouch himself, and in no way will Schiaffino have joy against him. Tassotti's defensive skills made him the main player under Sacchi, and with Baresi often pushing up, he often found himsef in a central defensive role. Yes, even as a right back under Sacchi, he played in central defense in several matches and even as a right back whenever Baresi would push up. In counterattacks, Tassotti would stick close to runners and shepherd them away from dangerous areas. Either that, or he'd intercept any pass that would come his way. There is no way Schiaffino would have an easy beating on Tassotti.

Tassoti is not a bad defender, but he does not belong to the highest tier. Against Schiaffino, you need a way better defender

A proper striker would have made GS' job easier. Without a proper striker, Collovati will not know whether to maintain his ground or track Rivaldo/another attacking player, and this will leave space on the left side for Roberto Carlos to exploit. With Causio being forced back, it won't be easy for GS' team to attack from their right side. Then, you have Savicevic attracting Krol towards him, and with his immaculate ball control, technique, and dribbling, he's bound to create spaces for others. The lack of a proper striker only allows to pursue more options when going forward and leave us more unpredictable. You only have to see how Roma and Barcelona performed without proper strikers in their team to realise the danger of not having to pick up a front man.

Won't this be the same the other way round? The presence of Causio means R. Carlos couldn't afford to roam forward as he pleases. R. Carlos is no slouch, and neither does Causio

 

[antohan]

I find it quite disturbing that every manager still in this is voting against the team offering the best spoils of war.

Not pointing my finger at anyone in particular, but in a game split 50-50 in votes it is quite striking that all of them, AMs included, vote against the team with rich pickings in the eras they will reinforce from.

It's just not right for managers to vote in games that so clearly affect their own fortunes. It's only natural to be a bit biased, particularly when it's so tight.

 

[antohan]

Sorry @green_smiley. I said I wouldn't vote earlier, but this just looked wrong to me (it was 13-12 anyway but there's always some penalty lover lurking).

I've never been a fan of managers voting when a result directly affects them. It is only human that, when in doubt, your personal convenience will tilt it but that's enough to make it an unfair vote.

If you look at either team and which era most teams will reinforce in, it is obvious mazhar13 offers the better spoils of war. Look at the votes and you'll find every manager still in it has voted against him. That's not because they know better and mazhar gets scanvoter support, many notorious draft regulars have voted him.

They may well have their reasons (some even stated them after mazhar thought it was a good idea to ask people voting against him to spell out their reasons, which only provides you with ammo) but there's a clear pattern there which runs counter to a game with the votes split 50-50. Someone's being a bad boy here.

And then of course there's the fact I think he has this game. He doesn't look particularly sexy. He badly needs a centreforward, no question. His depiction of Popescu ahead of the defence is misguided in my opinion, sweeper with an arrow would be better and suddenly Nielsen and Tassotti wouldn't look all that meh a pair. And of course you have a very sexy frontline so he is absolutely crucial there, doing that job, plugging any holes, not on some errand in the hole with Hassler, Rivera and Schiaffino running rings around him.

That said, your right side is a complete mess.

1) I spent the entire week wondering how exactly you planned to fit Causio and Hassler with Pepe and Rivera. Badly, clearly. Any half-decent CM would be a better fit than Hassler there. I really rate him, loved watching him play, but he ain't the player you need there: you needed an anchoring RCM next to the B2B Lerby (no, you don't need to constrain Lerby to holding here, you need the guy on the right to be the holding type full stop).

2) Hassler and Causio will do some work, but you are facing Roberto Carlos and Falcão on that side. That's serious business, and they aren't up to the job if you ask me. No slight on either.

3) And then you get to the defence and your RB is actually a CB in a makeshift role much like Thiago Silva's, the difference being this chap was largely a stopper and not as complete as Thiago IMO. Thiago faced a Kempes who would cut in more often than not, Fulvio has to deal with Roberto Carlos advancing down the flank. Only one winner there.

4) And then you have Rivaldo, who is a second striker and would benefit from a CF ala Kluivert next to him. No doubt. But with Carlos and Falcao advancing on the box, Collovatti gone and beaten regularly enough on the flank, Carlos'proven WC-winning link with Rivaldo... That's the most striking route to goal in this game and will be a thorn on your side all game because you simply have no answer to it. None. You are fecked really.

I know I said I would stay out, but it was just wrong and unfair on @mazhar13 that I did. I hope you appreciate I could have posted all this far earlier and made it much harder for you. But with me having skin in it, that would have been unfair on you: mazhar's job, not mine. He is a worthy winner though.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Great match. Good luck @mazhar13

Hard luch @green_smiley it was a very close match. Nice team you had build.

 

[green_smiley]

Sorry @green_smiley. I said I wouldn't vote earlier, but this just looked wrong to me (it was 13-12 anyway but there's always some penalty lover lurking).

I've never been a fan of managers voting when a result directly affects them. It is only human that, when in doubt, your personal convenience will tilt it but that's enough to make it an unfair vote.

If you look at either team and which era most teams will reinforce in, it is obvious mazhar13 offers the better spoils of war. Look at the votes and you'll find every manager still in it has voted against him. That's not because they know better and mazhar gets scanvoter support, many notorious draft regulars have voted him.

They may well have their reasons (some even stated them after mazhar thought it was a good idea to ask people voting against him to spell out their reasons, which only provides you with ammo) but there's a clear pattern there which runs counter to a game with the votes split 50-50. Someone's being a bad boy here.

And then of course there's the fact I think he has this game. He doesn't look particularly sexy. He badly needs a centreforward, no question. His depiction of Popescu ahead of the defence is misguided in my opinion, sweeper with an arrow would be better and suddenly Nielsen and Tassotti wouldn't look all that meh a pair. And of course you have a very sexy frontline so he is absolutely crucial there, doing that job, plugging any holes, not on some errand in the hole with Hassler, Rivera and Schiaffino running rings around him.

That said, your right side is a complete mess.

1) I spent the entire week wondering how exactly you planned to fit Causio and Hassler with Pepe and Rivera. Badly, clearly. Any half-decent CM would be a better fit than Hassler there. I really rate him, loved watching him play, but he ain't the player you need there: you needed an anchoring RCM next to the B2B Lerby (no, you don't need to constrain Lerby to holding here, you need the guy on the right to be the holding type full stop).

2) Hassler and Causio will do some work, but you are facing Roberto Carlos and Falcão on that side. That's serious business, and they aren't up to the job if you ask me. No slight on either.

3) And then you get to the defence and your RB is actually a CB in a makeshift role much like Thiago Silva's, the difference being this chap was largely a stopper and not as complete as Thiago IMO. Thiago faced a Kempes who would cut in more often than not, Fulvio has to deal with Roberto Carlos advancing down the flank. Only one winner there.

4) And then you have Rivaldo, who is a second striker and would benefit from a CF ala Kluivert next to him. No doubt. But with Carlos and Falcao advancing on the box, Collovatti gone and beaten regularly enough on the flank, Carlos'proven WC-winning link with Rivaldo... That's the most striking route to goal in this game and will be a thorn on your side all game because you simply have no answer to it. None. You are fecked really.

I know I said I would stay out, but it was just wrong and unfair on @mazhar13 that I did. I hope you appreciate I could have posted all this far earlier and made it much harder for you. But with me having skin in it, that would have been unfair on you: mazhar's job, not mine. He is a worthy winner though.

What is everyone taking draft so seriously?

You should have say it earlier though. I won't bite. Maybe just a nibble

It was fun. And that is the most important part. Hope you get the man you wants

 

[green_smiley]

Great game @mazhar13

Not sure how you plan to win the whole thing. Some pretty strong teams you will be up against. Best of luck!

 

[green_smiley]

@antohan one question though. Do you think Schiaffino and Rivera will play well in the same team? This is the one and only reason I participate in this draft

 

[antohan]

What is everyone taking draft so seriously?

You should have say it earlier though. I won't bite. Maybe just a nibble

It was fun. And that is the most important part. Hope you get the man you wants

Not the draft, but fairness. I'm aware how personally invested you can get in your own side. I felt mazhar was getting a raw deal, but didn't think it was right for me to start picking you apart when I clearly wasn't a neutral here.

Good to know you had fun and that you take it in your stride. FWIW, the points I raised are valid, much of your side was beautifully constructed with all the right players but it sort of fell on its arse with Hassler and Collovatti. You may have got away with it in another game (like MJJ/Crappy did) but Carlos, Falcao and Rivaldo attacking your imbalanced/weak spot was a disaster waiting to happen.

Hope you enjoy the Pepe writeup

 

[crappycraperson]

Sorry @green_smiley. I said I wouldn't vote earlier, but this just looked wrong to me (it was 13-12 anyway but there's always some penalty lover lurking).

I've never been a fan of managers voting when a result directly affects them. It is only human that, when in doubt, your personal convenience will tilt it but that's enough to make it an unfair vote.

If you look at either team and which era most teams will reinforce in, it is obvious mazhar13 offers the better spoils of war. Look at the votes and you'll find every manager still in it has voted against him. That's not because they know better and mazhar gets scanvoter support, many notorious draft regulars have voted him.

They may well have their reasons (some even stated them after mazhar thought it was a good idea to ask people voting against him to spell out their reasons, which only provides you with ammo) but there's a clear pattern there which runs counter to a game with the votes split 50-50. Someone's being a bad boy here.

And then of course there's the fact I think he has this game. He doesn't look particularly sexy. He badly needs a centreforward, no question. His depiction of Popescu ahead of the defence is misguided in my opinion, sweeper with an arrow would be better and suddenly Nielsen and Tassotti wouldn't look all that meh a pair. And of course you have a very sexy frontline so he is absolutely crucial there, doing that job, plugging any holes, not on some errand in the hole with Hassler, Rivera and Schiaffino running rings around him.

That said, your right side is a complete mess.

1) I spent the entire week wondering how exactly you planned to fit Causio and Hassler with Pepe and Rivera. Badly, clearly. Any half-decent CM would be a better fit than Hassler there. I really rate him, loved watching him play, but he ain't the player you need there: you needed an anchoring RCM next to the B2B Lerby (no, you don't need to constrain Lerby to holding here, you need the guy on the right to be the holding type full stop).

2) Hassler and Causio will do some work, but you are facing Roberto Carlos and Falcão on that side. That's serious business, and they aren't up to the job if you ask me. No slight on either.

3) And then you get to the defence and your RB is actually a CB in a makeshift role much like Thiago Silva's, the difference being this chap was largely a stopper and not as complete as Thiago IMO. Thiago faced a Kempes who would cut in more often than not, Fulvio has to deal with Roberto Carlos advancing down the flank. Only one winner there.

4) And then you have Rivaldo, who is a second striker and would benefit from a CF ala Kluivert next to him. No doubt. But with Carlos and Falcao advancing on the box, Collovatti gone and beaten regularly enough on the flank, Carlos'proven WC-winning link with Rivaldo... That's the most striking route to goal in this game and will be a thorn on your side all game because you simply have no answer to it. None. You are fecked really.

I know I said I would stay out, but it was just wrong and unfair on @mazhar13 that I did. I hope you appreciate I could have posted all this far earlier and made it much harder for you. But with me having skin in it, that would have been unfair on you: mazhar's job, not mine. He is a worthy winner though.

You have lost the plot. I did not vote here myself but this is rubbish, I don't believe anyone has voted tactically here. May be you have :P

 

[crappycraperson]

Great game @mazhar13

Not sure how you plan to win the whole thing. Some pretty strong teams you will be up against. Best of luck!

Should have never started this on friday, reason I never have my own games on the weekends

 

[green_smiley]

Not the draft, but fairness. I'm aware how personally invested you can get in your own side. I felt mazhar was getting a raw deal, but didn't think it was right for me to start picking you apart when I clearly wasn't a neutral here.

Good to know you had fun and that you take it in your stride. FWIW, the points I raised are valid, much of your side was beautifully constructed with all the right players but it sort of fell on its arse with Hassler and Collovatti. You may have got away with it in another game (like MJJ/Crappy did) but Carlos, Falcao and Rivaldo attacking your imbalanced/weak spot was a disaster waiting to happen.

Hope you enjoy the Pepe writeup

Hassler was a gamble. It is between choosing a better suit player but not a vote magnet, or a well-known player but does not fit that well. Apparently I chose the latter

As for Collovati, he is the best defender to chain-link with Rivera. Probably should have gone for traditional back four or add a right wingback, but back-three formation is something I always want to have in any draft posibble

 

[antohan]

@antohan one question though. Do you think Schiaffino and Rivera will play well in the same team? This is the one and only reason I participate in this draft

I was initially worried you were going for some sort of XMAS tree, which would have been a horrendous waste of their talent.

In this setup though they looked superb to me. In fact, I would strongly consider taking that trio bang into team Anto except for Cubillas playing a crucial role in my transition. That's somewhat the problem you had: you had Hassler as the ball-carrier alongside Rivera and it sort of didn't add up to the sum of parts when you had Pepe. In a way, you split two roles across three players and it's the short blanket all over again: it ends up costing you elsewhere, i.e. not having a holding RCM here, which you absolutely needed.

 

[antohan]

You have lost the plot. I did not vote here myself but this is rubbish, I don't believe anyone has voted tactically here. May be you have :P

Good for you. Mazhar was winning anyway, but it just looked wrong that I had abstained from voting in order not to raise concerns... and then loads of others didn't and all voted for the likes of Zanetti and Carlos to become available. Handy, and it felt somewhat ridiculous that all the while I was withholding a vote on mazhar.

 

[antohan]

Hassler was a gamble. It is between choosing a better suit player but not a vote magnet, or a well-known player but does not fit that well. Apparently I chose the latter

As for Collovati, he is the best defender to chain-link with Rivera. Probably should have gone for traditional back four or add a right wingback, but back-three formation is something I always want to have in any draft posibble

I don't question the Collovatti pick (clear as day that you had to get him), or Hassler being picked (could have easily played him out right), it's more about how they wound up being deployed. We all take risks and sometimes they pay off, sometimes they don't, but you should have picked up at some point that your right side was going to look hugely exposed.

 

[crappycraperson]

Good for you. Mazhar was winning anyway, but it just looked wrong that I had abstained from voting in order not to raise concerns... and then loads of others didn't and all voted for the likes of Zanetti and Carlos to become available. Handy, and it felt somewhat ridiculous that all the while I was withholding a vote on mazhar.

Whatever mate. Frankly, it looks like you wanted your "Pepe" hence this long justification for your vote. It's good it did not matter in the end.

 

[Moby]

The drama in this draft doesn't cease to exist.

 

[antohan]

Whatever mate. Frankly, it looks like you wanted your "Pepe" hence this long justification for your vote. It's good it did not matter in the end.

Aren't you the one always complaining when I (or Aldo/Chester) argue too much in other people's games? And then when I deliberately choose not to, because I know it's going to be an issue, you also have a problem with it?

Make up your mind.

 

[mazhar13]

Wow, this was closer than I anticipated. I felt that both my and @green_smiley's team had weaknesses and imbalances, but I thought mines would be easier than his, which was proving to be the case with certain voters.

Still, though, I really enjoyed the discussions I had with GS and everyone else after an unsurprisingly slow start. Great game GS. Your front 3 were tasty, but I'd really have loved to see Lerby in a box-to-box role. He was just tasty in it! And if you probably had a holder alongside Lerby, I'm sure you would have won.