All Time Chain Draft - R1: mazhar13 vs Green_Smiley

With players at career peaks, who will win?

  • Total voters
    26
  • Poll closed .

Edgar Allan Pillow

Ero-Sennin
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vs
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........................................Team mazhar13.....................................................................................Team Green_Smiley.......................


Team mazhar13

Beautiful Football with Defensive Solidity

Formation: 4-4-2 diamond / 3-5-2

My team has it all to face anyone: fluidity, flair, intelligence, bite, solidity, aggression, composure, leaders, and match winners.

The most important part about my team is that it is fluid with attacking players given all of the freedom to play their game. This freedom is brought to them by the great discipline, defensive solidity, and intelligence of the defensive players in the team. Just because I don't have some main striker in the team doesn't mean that my team's incapable of scoring goals: Rivaldo was quite a consistent goalscorer even when playing in a free forward role. Savicevic, whilst he's known more as a creator, was one of Red Star's main goalscorers when he played in a free forward role. Even for AC Milan, under the more strict Capello, he had a good 1994/95 season, scoring 9 goals in a creative wide attacking midfield role. Finally, you also have Agostino di Bartolomei, who had an eye for goal even though he was Roma's main creative playmaker (he scored 7-9 goals per season in all but 1 season for Roma).

The beauty of my team is that I have players with great individual skills who can pull opposing teams' defences apart all by themselves, but when they're in a team together, they can gel and work well together with their styles of play complementing each other. Rivaldo can enter the box with confidence that he'll get a sweet delivery in for him to head, volley, or bicycle kick in. Rivaldo/Savicevic can drop back, drift wide, and look for the ball, and they can play through di Bartolomei, Roberto Carlos, or Jugovic with their late runs into the box. Di Bartolomei will have the total freedom to control the game from midfield and dictate the game with options provided by Rivaldo, Savicevic, the wing backs, Jugovic, and Falcao. Jugovic won't just be restricted to a workhorse's role: he'll be allowed to drift wide and stretch the opposing team with his great dribbling, close control, and passing. However, Jugovic's more altruistic football personality means that he's perfect in a wide central midfield role as he'll provide the energy and work rate to keep things tight and tough for the opposition. Paulo Falcao is another player who'll thrive in the greater freedom he'll get in this role. Normally having played as a defensive midfielder, he was quite successful for Roma in a more free midfield role. Here, he'll still be providing defensive support with his excellent positioning and reading of the game, but he'll be allowed to push forward and create chances with di Bartolomei dropping back and filling in for him.

In the defence, I have quite an all-rounded setup. The wing backs need no introduction with two of the best to have ever played the sport. Roberto Carlos will be sure to dominate the left flank with his energy, skill, and magical left foot. Zanetti will do the same with his tactical intelligence, defensive assurance, and great technique on the ball. Zanetti, with his versatility, can allow Tassotti to play his proper defensive game, allowing him to drift out wide or remain in the middle. Tassotti (AC Milan version) was composed, calm, and intelligent in his game. His positioning, tactical flexibility, man marking, and reading of the game allowed him to excel as a defensive full back, and he was a key right-sided defender under Arrigo Sacchi's total-football-like system. In the middle, I have Popescu, one of the best defenders/defensive midfielders of his time. His intelligence is important here in this role, leading the defence and keeping them organised. His technique on the ball will also allow him to start off attacks and play the attacking players into space, although he won't need to do that too frequently with the midfield he has in front of him. With two silky defenders in my team, I complement them with the steel, aggression, strength, and power of Ivan Nielsen, who was one of the hardmen of the Danish Dynamites. This is the man who completely shut down the great Francescoli during the 1986 World Cup, and he'll be sure to rough up and unsettle Schiaffino throughout the match as well as match up to Nordahl's strength and power. With Nielsen in my team, I'm confident in my team being strong in the air and on the ground, and his aggression and steel with be important in preventing GS's attackers from settling and causing us problems.

Finally, I have one of best goalkeepers the Netherlands ever produced in van Breukelen. A hero of the 1988 Euros, this is a keeper who has won matches just with his key saves. A tall keeper with a large frame, he dominates the goal area. His reflexes as well as his anticipation made him tough to score against particularly in 1-on-1's and penalties, and if GS is ever going to get past my solid defence, van Breukelen will make sure that they won't be able to score.

TL;DR: My team consists of great attacking flair and unpredictability. The skill, creativity, flair, and jaw-dropping shooting techniques of my players allows them to score goals from almost everywhere. To complement this, my team also has defensive solidity and steel to allow the attacks to be fluid and incisive. I am pretty much guaranteed to get a goal or two whilst shutting out the opposition.
 
TEAM green_smiley

Formation
A lop-sided 3-4-1-2, with Cabrini as left wing-back, whom will provide the width on the left flank. My 3 centre-backs possesses great tactical-awareness, positioning and comfortable with the ball: Krol the left centre-back, one of the most complete defenders of all-time; Olsen is the sweeper - the extra man in defense; and Collovati is the tuck-in right centre-back

Lerby will be my defensive midfielder, primarily supporting defending at the back and breaking up plays, but also possesses good passing range to control the midfield. Häßler is the ball-carrying attacking midfielder, and Causio providing width on the right-hand side

Then we have Rivera, Ballon d'Or winner and one of greatest playmaker of all-time, whom I foresee will have great synergy and understanding with Schiaffino. Schiaffino plays an important role at inside-left position, supporting play-making and goal-scoring responsibility up-front. Nordahl, Milan's all-time top scorer, possesses great physical ability and goal-scoring prowess. He will relish the goal-scoring opportunity provided by his teammates

Defensive Play
Assuming mazhar13 going for 5-3-2, with 2 wing-backs providing the width, plus Savicevic and Rivaldo leading the attack up-front
  • Cabrini vs. Zanetti. Cabrini's technical, defensive, athletic, and physical qualities will be able to keep up against Zanetti [GIFs #2]
  • Causio vs. Roberto Carlos. Causio, a fast and hardworking player with excellent stamina, possesses very good defensive quality to defend against the Brazilian wing back
  • Rivera vs. Di Bartolomei. With Di Bartolomei likely looking to dictate play from deeper position, Rivera is keeping close tab on him to reduce his influence
  • Lerby vs. Jugovic. Lerby, a mixture of class, steel and gritty determination, should prove an equal, if not better, match against his opponent [GIFs]
  • Häßler vs. Falcao. Häßler is assigned task to harass Falcao with his terrier-like work rate
  • Krol vs. Savicevic. One of the most complete defender of all-time, Krol is more than able to defend against Savicevic, be it on the right flank or towards inside [GIFs]
  • Collovati vs. Rivaldo with his excellent anticipation, marking ability, and aerial prowess [GIFs]
  • Olsen to sweep away any danger in his penalty area. A brilliant sweeper with fantastic reading of the game and tactical awareness [GIFs #2 and #3]
Attacking Play
  • Cabrini to provide attacking width on the left-hand side. A goal threat, great at overlapping as well as creating chance for his teammate with his great passings and crosses. [GIFs #1 and #3]
  • Schiaffino, being utilized as inside-left, will unlock mazhar's defense with his excellent technical ability, passing range, and vision. Also tactically intelligent to move into great attacking position and score [GIFs]
  • Causio attacking the right channel. He has every attribute of a great winger: excellent technical ability and creativity, an accurate crosser, fantastic ball control and dribbling skills, fast and hardworking, can score inside or outside the box. Not only is he able to beat his marker, but he can also provide pin-point crosses for Nordahl to score [GIFs]
  • Häßler, the midfield dynamo, operates exceptionally well in tight space as well as able to excel in anyway across the midfield. He provides attacking threat with agility, work rate and dribbling skills, which compliments well with the elegance of Rivera and Schiaffino [GIFs]
  • Rivera, the no. 10, who thrives even against the toughest defense in Serie A. He dominates the midfield with his tactical and technical brilliance, supreme intelligence and creative flamboyance. He possesses fantastic vision to assist his teammates or create room for himself to score [GIFs]
  • Nordahl, AC Milan's all-time top-scorer with 210 league goals. He was one of the most effective striker of all-time, with his enormous strength, pace and remarkable shooting power [GIFs]
  • Olsen, with fantastic range of passing and capable of bypassing midfield with powerful run from his own half. If Olsen does go forward when given opportunity, Lerby will cover for him defensively [GIFs #1]
 
More from mazhar13:

Different Phases of Play
Build-Up Possibility:

When starting off attacks, Popescu will start off attacks from the middle but will not look to go too far forward to prevent us from being exposed. In this situation, one of di Bartolomei or Falcao will drop back to receive the ball from the defence and dictate the game. By having both di Bartolomei and Falcao in the side, there's no way we'll be bottlenecked when building up as GS's team cannot simply close down both without leaving others free. Popescu's passing can allow him to bypass the deep-lying midfielder with an incisive long pass out to the wing backs or to one of the forwards in order to speed up the build-up and disorganise GS's defence. Otherwise, di Bartolomei and Falcao will definitely be able to control the game.

When entering the final third, we have threats everywhere: from the middle and from out wide. At this point, di Bartolomei can enter the box knowing that Jugovic and Falcao are providing the midfield support. The midfield can also play through the forwards into goalscoring chances. Savicevic and Rivaldo, with their vision, passing, and technique, can also play through the wing backs or midfielders into goal. Jugovic could also drift out wide and provide an outlet for the midfield and forwards with Roberto Carlos making his typical dangerous run into the box. The same can go on the right side with Savicevic pulling out to the right with Zanetti providing support.


As you can see, it will be tough for GS to find spaces and openings. The energy and discipline of Falcao and Jugovic will mean that the likes of Rivera, Lerby, and Schiaffino will find it difficult to get on the ball and open us up. Nielsen's aggression can allow him to push up on whoever is open for the ball with Popescu filling up the spaces and keeping us solid along with Tassotti. Zanetti, with his versatility, can come inside and cover the middle if Tassotti does get pulled out wide. Falcao/Jugovic can also do the same as well as win the ball with their tackling and anticipation. In terms of 1-on-1 defending, Nielsen, Roberto Carlos, Zanetti, and Tassotti are all comfortable in this regard, and all of them can slow down GS's attacks enough to allow us to get organised into such a solid shape.
 
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Even more from mazhar13:

Special Feature: Agostino di Bartolomei

Source: Carlo Garganese (Goal.com)
As part of Goal.com’s build-up to Sunday night’s Derby della Capitale, Carlo Garganese tells the tragic tale of one of Roma’s greatest ever players and symbols – Agostino Di Bartlomei – who took his own life at the age of just 39…

Roma have boasted a long-list of inspirational captains over the years. Giuseppe Giannini, Carlo Ancelotti, Giacomo Losi, and one of this weekend's derby skippers, Francesco Totti, are just a few of the leaders rightfully regarded as club legends. In Nils Liedholm’s great team of the early 1980s, the captain and leader of the Giallorossi was the outstanding Agostino Di Bartolomei.

In 15 years at the club, Di Bartolomei played 308 games, scoring an impressive 66 goals and captaining the team 146 times. ‘Ago’, as he was known, helped form one of Europe’s most feared midfields, alongside Ancelotti, Bruno Conti, Toninho Cerezo and the incomparable Brazilian Roberto Falcao. He led the team to the Scudetto in 1983, their first in more than 40 years, and only the second in their history. He also won three Coppa Italia winner’s medals in 1980, 1981 and 1984 and narrowly missed out on lifting the European Cup when Roma lost on penalties to Liverpool in the final in 1984.

Like Giannini and Totti after him, Di Bartolomei had Roman blood bursting through his veins. Born and raised in one of the poor peripheral zones of the capital city, Ago was signed by Roma as a 14-year-old. After winning the youth championship, he made his senior debut at the age of just 18 against Giacinto Facchetti’s Inter on 22 March, 1973.

By the next season he had become a first-choice in the Roma midfield and with the exception of a season-long loan spell at Vicenza to ‘build up his bones’ in Serie B, Ago soon developed into an indispensable player for the Giallorossi. Di Bartolomei played the role of the regista, the central midfield ‘director’, a position made famous by Gianni Rivera and which required a skilful playmaker who would distribute passes to the wings and the forwards and dictate the tempo of the game.

By the 1980s this position was beginning to disappear as coaches tended to favour midfielders who could press and tackle back. Perhaps this explains why Di Bartolomei was never called up for the Italian national team as coach Enzo Bearzot seemed to prefer the steel and substance of Marco Tardelli and Gabriele Oriali over the flair and fantasy of Di Bartolomei. A crime of gargantuan proportions, it certainly helps qualify Di Bartolomei as the greatest Italian never to play for his country.

Tall, elegant and skilful, with fantastic vision and technical ability, Di Bartolomei fulfilled all the requirements of the regista. He would regularly hit pinpoint 60-yard cross-field passes to a team-mates feet and could spot a through-ball that most other players did not believe existed. In a similar way to Andrea Pirlo today, Di Bartolomei never appeared to do much running or tackling back and for this reason he was often tormented by the criticism that he was lazy and slow. However, like Pirlo, his brilliance was unquestionable. Roma’s Swedish boss Nils Liedholm said of him that “he never moved on the pitch without a reason. His passes were long, and perfect. He always ran with great elegance, with his head up.”

A creator of goals, Ago also boasted a superb scoring record for a midfielder, with a ratio of one goal in just over every four games. In the 1977-78 season he scored 10 (in a 16-team league), a tally most forwards would be proud of, whilst the season preceding that he chipped in with eight strikes. Even when in 1982 Di Bartolomei was moved into a more defensive position in front of the defence he continued to regularly find the back of the net, scoring seven league goals in the 1983 Scudetto-winning campaign.

Possessing a powerful shot, Di Bartolomei scored many thunderous long-range strikes during his career. He was also an exceptional penalty-taker, dispatching a number of vital spot-kicks. Perhaps the most crucial of these was during the European Cup semi-final second leg against Dundee United at the Olimpico in 1984. Trailing 2-0 from the first leg in Scotland, a penalty by Di Bartolomei helped Roma complete a miraculous comeback to win 3-0 on the night and book their place in the final against Liverpool. During the shoot-out in that final, Di Bartolomei kept his head to score, whilst others such as Conti and Francesco Graziani buckled when faced by Bruce Grobbelaars ‘wobbly legs’.

Di Bartolomei described the final against Liverpool as “the game of his life” and it is difficult to disagree with him. Playing in front of his own fans, Ago was the undoubted man-of-the-match. While most of his team-mates froze amidst the intense expectation of the Giallorossi faithful, Di Bartolomei’s class shone throughout the game. He was at the centre of every Roma move and like his manager Liedholm, whom it is famously said, once went two seasons for Milan without misplacing a pass, Di Bartolomei was cool and collected, never wasting possession and looking dangerous every time he touched the ball.

After a 1-1 draw after extra time, the outcome of this match sadly ended with a defeat on penalties for Roma. However it could have concluded with Di Bartolomei lifting the cup in his own city, had the referee spotted a blatant foul on Roma keeper Franco Tancredi in the build up to Phil Neal’s goal for Liverpool.

Incredibly this proved to be one of Di Bartolomei’s last games for the club, as after the arrival of Sven Goran Eriksson as coach, Ago was inexplicably allowed to leave and join Milan. It was a transfer that he bitterly opposed and Ago gave a number of interviews in which he declared his unerring love for the Giallorossi: “Why am I leaving? I don’t know.” Just a month into his career at Giuseppe Meazza he was reunited with his old team-mates as Roma visited the San Siro. As fate would have it Di Bartolomei scored as Milan won 2-1.

When Arrigo Sacchi arrived at San Siro in 1987, Di Bartolomei moved on again and he wound down his career at a series of provincial clubs before quitting football in 1990. Upon his retirement Roma offered Di Bartolomei nothing. After 15 years of fantastic service in which he undoubtedly earned himself the status of a club legend, Roma seemed to just abandon one of their greatest ever players.

Di Bartolomei began to suffer from severe bouts of depression as he struggled to adjust to a world outside of football. Some financial deals went wrong and a number of business plans stuttered, including the attempt to open a football school. On the morning of 30 May 1994, Di Bartolomei walked onto the balcony of his villa in San Marco di Castellabate and fatally shot himself through the heart. The date of Di Bartolomei’s suicide was significant. It was exactly ten years to the day of Roma’s European Cup Final defeat to Liverpool.

The time Di Bartolomei chose to take his life could not have been a coincidence, although the reasons for suicide are less clear. His suicide note tried to explain his decision. He had been refused a loan and was having some financial problems. “I can’t see any way out,” he concluded. Many ex-friends and players turned up at the funeral, including most of the
glorious 1980s Roma team that Di Bartolomei had captained.

Di Bartolomei is a person who will always have an indirect connection with my own life. I was born just minutes after Roma’s penalty defeat to Liverpool, while he committed suicide on the day I celebrated my tenth birthday. As for the Rome derby, well in Di Bartolomei’s final Derby della Capitale, before joining Milan, he scored at both ends of the field as the Giallorossi came back from 2-0 down to draw 2-2 in a classic match.

Video showing di Bartolomei's scoring capabilities:


And if anyone ever has concerns about Savicevic playing in a free forward role on the right, this should clear those doubts:
 
His defense vs My attack
The key battle is Nielsen vs Nordahl. Nielsen may be able to hinder Francescoli as he described, but Nordahl belongs to higher tier as far as goal-scoring and physical attributes are concerned. I strongly believe Nordahl will come up on top of the challenge. Nielsen will have tough time containing Nordahl, let alone trying to rough-up both Nordahl and Schiaffino :wenger:

Popescu won't be able to stop Rivera as far as I am concerned. We are talking about Rivera, a Ballon d'Or winner with unparalleled skill, technique and agility, whom excelled against even the toughest defense in Serie A.

Same goes for Tassotti againt Schiaffino, whom is as good as Rivera himself, if not better.

Then you have mazhar's wingbacks occupied with looming threat from Cabrini and Causio on each sides. They won't have much chance to help out their other teammates in defending

Don't forget about Häßler ball-carrying ability, speed, agility and work-rate, someone who will breach mazhar's defense if not handled well

In short, mazhar is relying on 1-on-1 battle when it comes to defending, which even so, my attack will still be able to score due to the difference in quality. If he wants to double-team, it will reduce his attacking threat, and my team will be able to drag his defenders out of position, creating space for goals
 
His attack vs My defense

First of all, mazhar's 3-man defense couldn't afford to press that high up as described in his build-up diagrams, else Rivera, Schiaffino and Nordahl will punish them on a counter

Secondly, my 3-man defense are better than mazhar's:
Collovati >>> Tassotti (1 has 50 caps for Italy, the other mere 7 caps)
Olsen and Popescu - depending on how you look at it. Olsen may have only played as sweeper at later stage of his career, but he excelled at that position and never looked back, especially his performance in Euro. Some even says that his ability as sweeper is just below Beckenbauer and Scirea
Krol >>> Nielsen (no explanation needed)

I also have Cabrini and Causio covering the flanks, so won't get caught with overlapping from mazhar's wingbacks

Next, I have Lerby who adds steel and grittiness to my midfield. mazhar's doesn't have such player in his side

I also have Häßler who can track back and defend. And once my team wins the ball back, Häßler is able to transition from defense to attack in split seconds, carrying the ball towards the opposition's defense in lightning pace. Again, mazhar's doesn't have player as fast as Häßler to recover at similar rate
 
green_smiley said:
First of all, mazhar's 3-man defense couldn't afford to press that high up as described in his build-up diagrams, else Rivera, Schiaffino and Nordahl will punish them on a counter
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That's not supposed to show a high defensive line. It's only supposed to show the positions of the players. If that's how that's being interpreted, I might as well just take down those images. @Edgar Allan Pillow

Also, it seems that GS has gone for a different setup than I anticipated, so this shouldn't be too problematic for me.

In terms of how high my defensive line will be, they are supposed to be deep as shown in the defensive shape image. Given the attacking players that GS has, the best way to stop him is to keep it compact and tight in our third. Schiaffino won't be able to get much time and space in and around the final third. Tassotti will be well-capable of reading his movements, and being a part of a unit that was defensively solid even under Arrigo's free-flowing football. Just because he has fewer caps than Collovati shouldn't dismiss his club accomplishments and performances. Even with his excellent club performanes, he wasn't getting called up until later in his career. Take di Bartolomei as an example: he never got a cap, yet several people believe that he should have played for Italy given that they didn't have a player like him in the team (not that they did too badly without him, mind, but they would have been even better going forward in the 1980's). I can also name other countless examples of players with great club performances who never/rarely got capped (and this topic should be left for another thread, not this one).
 
green_smiley said:
In short, mazhar is relying on 1-on-1 battle when it comes to defending, which even so, my attack will still be able to score due to the difference in quality. If he wants to double-team, it will reduce his attacking threat, and my team will be able to drag his defenders out of position, creating space for goals
Click to expand...
Wrong! Where did I even suggest that? In fact, I actually suggested the opposite: my team is going to pick up players depending on the situation with a mixture of zonal and man-to-man marking (without set associations) being incorporated. Nielsen vs. Nordahl is one of my team's main man-to-man situations. Whilst Nordahl was a beast, Nielsen isn't some wimp, and he'd relish taking on a physical challenge as this one. Nielsen was strong on the tackle, aggressive in his marking, and strong in the air, and there's no way Nordahl will get an easy ride when dealing with aerial deliveries or passes through to him. The others defend depending on the situation (again, a mixture of zonal and man-to-man marking with no set man-to-man assignments).

Also, comparing players just on their abilities isn't a good way of determining who's vulnerable or not in the team. Just because Krol is more complete than Nielsen doesn't mean that Krol will stop me and Nielsen won't stop him. Football's a team game with the unit greater than the sum of its parts.
 
For my team on the attack, it looks even better than I thought. With no real defensive midfield player in the team, this should make it easier for me to break down GS.

When starting off attacks, my deep-lying ball players will definitely get the time and space to start off attacks and pin back GS' team. None of GS' players (except Lerby, but he'll get dragged around anyways with his aggressive nature) will really worry me when I try to start off attacks. With two attack-minded midfielders in the team, GS needed someone with more control and discipline than Lerby in midfield to keep things balanced. However, by playing Lerby as the main defensive midfielder, things play into my hands as my players will be guaranteed to get spaces in midfield and in the final third outside the box to do the damage.

With Causio being more of a right winger than a wing back (for GS' team and in real life) he'll have a difficult time dealing with Roberto Carlos. Roberto Carlos was pretty much like a great winger when going forward, demonstrating speed and good dribbling. It's not enough for just Causio (a winger, not a wing back) to deal with him, and Lerby/Collovati will need to support Causio in this case, leaving spaces for my other attacking players and vice versa.

Zanetti will not really have to deal too much with Cabrini in this instance because it will mainly be Savicevic drifting out to the right side to stretch GS' back line and also keep Cabrini occupied and pegged back. His magical dribbling is one that will bamboozle even the best of players, and he demonstrated that when he won the European Cup with Red Star. Rivaldo is quite similar in this aspect. He'll be sure to keep GS' defensive players occupied, and a player of his ability is able to handle the pressure that he'd get from the opposition, and this will play well into my hands as spaces will be created for others to break into.

I see that Jugovic may be underrated for what he offers going forward, so here's a nice clip showing what he can do:


For all that Lerby offers, Jugovic offers that on top of discipline and control, something that Lerby doesn't really possess.
 
Really not sure what to make of Mazhars team here. Seems to be a lot of square pegs in round holes. Not sure i'm buying Rivaldo and Savicevic up top with no recognised striker, and Tassotti made his name as a right back and only played centre half occasionally. Not sure how good Nielsen and Di Bartolomei were also, the former never really makin it out of Denmark/Holland and the latter not winning a single cap for his country.

Need to read up on a couple of green_smileys lesser known players and write up when i get a chance later but first impressions are it looks pretty tasty.

Edit: also would have preferred Jugovic on the right (his natural side) on the same side as Savicevic
 
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A couple of other notes regarding my team in the defensive phase:
  • Roberto Carlos will mostly deal with Causio out wide, and in 1-on-1 situations, Roberto Carlos wasn't easy to deal with. Causio will have a difficult time getting past R. Carlos with the pace, quickness, and anticipation that he possesses.
  • With so much talk of Hassler breaking through and causing me problems, GS forgets that I have Popescu who can sweep up accordingly with his great ability to read the game and experience as a central defender for PSV, and Jugovic will also be around to stop him from carrying the ball too far with his aggression and bite in midfield.
 
Cutch said:
Tassotti made his name as a right back and only played centre half occasionally.
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Tassotti was a regular central defender for Lazio, for your information, and that made him defensively refined enough in AC Milan under Sacchi. With his defensive qualities and intelligence (his nickname is "The Professor")
Cutch said:
Not sure how good Nielsen and Di Bartolomei were also, the former never really makin it out of Denmark/Holland and the latter not winning a single cap for his country.
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Nielsen was quite successful in the Nethetlands when its clubs were stronger during the 80's, and he also won the treble with PSV. Di Bartolomei not being selected is due to Bearzot's personal preferences than di Bartolomei's ability.
 
I want to vote for mazhar here but I think his side falls apart a bit due to Bartolomei. Carlos and Zanetti running the wings in a diamond is fantastic. Rivaldo and Savicevic up top would be ok as well if Bartolomei could play a false 9 role ala Totti. Instead he seems like he is a normal CM who played in both offensive and defensive roles for Roma. Not sure how effective he will be as head of the diamond here.
 
crappycraperson said:
I want to vote for mazhar here but I think his side falls apart a bit due to Bartolomei. Carlos and Zanetti running the wings in a diamond is fantastic. Rivaldo and Savicevic up top would be ok as well if Bartolomei could play a false 9 role ala Totti. Instead he seems like he is a normal CM who played in both offensive and defensive roles for Roma. Not sure how effective he will be as head of the diamond here.
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Yep, agree with a lot of this.
 
mazhar13 said:
Tassotti was a regular central defender for Lazio, for your information, and that made him defensively refined enough in AC Milan under Sacchi. With his defensive qualities and intelligence (his nickname is "The Professor")
Click to expand...

Yeah when he was a teenager. He made his name as a right back for Milan so judging him in an all time context it's not ideal that he's lining up here in the centre.
 
Cutch said:
Yeah when he was a teenager. He made his name as a right back for Milan so judging him in an all time context it's not ideal that he's lining up here in the centre.
Click to expand...
But he wasn't your typical full back, though. He did more than just mark out wingers and win the ball out wide. His astute positioning and reading of the game made him a key cog in Sacchi's Milan, and Sacchi's Milan wasn't just a rigid 4-4-2. Also, he's not a strict central defender in my team. He'll mostly be defending the right side of the field including the right channel. Schiaffino is a player who loves to drift around in our right side, and Tassotti will make sure that he and anyone else in that area doesn't get into open space or be able to find openings at the back. With Popescu acting as more of a sweeper than a defensive midfielder in the defensive phase, Tassotti will be able to use the defensive qualities that made him a solid and reliable right back.

crappycraperson said:
I want to vote for mazhar here but I think his side falls apart a bit due to Bartolomei. Carlos and Zanetti running the wings in a diamond is fantastic. Rivaldo and Savicevic up top would be ok as well if Bartolomei could play a false 9 role ala Totti. Instead he seems like he is a normal CM who played in both offensive and defensive roles for Roma. Not sure how effective he will be as head of the diamond here.
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Here's the thing, though: Rivaldo and Savicevic won't be playing as strict wide forwards or strikers. Both will be playing in free roles as well as di Bartolomei. Your doubts over him at the tip of the diamond stem from the fact that he only seemed to play as a CM. However, for much of his career, he was the most advanced CM out of the other players, frequently playing as an attacking midfielder in Roma's 4-3-3, 1-4-4-1, and other such formations. He often found himself in goalscoring positions, even as a libero in his later years. He was Gerrard-like in the fact that he would often go for long shots from midfield or get into goalscoring positions whenever he could. In my team, he'll be allowed to control the game in midfield, and with Rivaldo/Savicevic dropping back to receive the ball and get involved, di Bartolomei will get the chance to get goalscoring opportunities with both of them able to split defences.
 
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mazhar13 said:
Here's the thing, though: Rivaldo and Savicevic won't be playing as strict wide forwards or strikers. Both will be playing in free roles as well as di Bartolomei. Your doubts over him at the tip of the diamond stem from the fact that he only seemed to play as a CM. However, for much of his career, he was the most advanced CM out of the other players, frequently playing as an attacking midfielder in Roma's 4-3-3, 1-4-4-1, and other such formations. He often found himself in goalscoring positions, even as a libero in his later years. He was Gerrard-like in the fact that he would often go for long shots from midfield or get into goalscoring positions whenever he could. In my team, he'll be allowed to control the game in midfield, and with Rivaldo/Savicevic dropping back to receive the ball and get involved, di Bartolomei will get the chance to get goalscoring opportunities with both of them able to split defences.
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No but even if he is a Gerrard clone, I am not sure I fancy Gerrard in this role behind the duo of Rivaldo and Savicevic. Both in their free roles will peel off the center towards right and left channels. You need a number 10 who could provide a presence up front if needed. I don't think this breaks your side completely but it is a miss for me.
 
crappycraperson said:
No but even if he is a Gerrard clone, I am not sure I fancy Gerrard in this role behind the duo of Rivaldo and Savicevic. Both in their free roles will peel off the center towards right and left channels. You need a number 10 who could provide a presence up front if needed. I don't think this breaks your side completely but it is a miss for me.
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But here's the thing: as I said earlier, they aren't mere wide forwards. They won't just stay up and peel out wide. Both have the tendency to drop back and get on the ball, and both are very good at dribbling with the ball, and I want to exploit that by giving them such a freedom. There's not that much need of a presence if we have players who can attract opposition defenders towards them with their ability on the ball. By not having a main striker up front, it will allow us to disrupt the opposition defence and create gaps for others to exploit.
 
I'm abstaining from voting/commenting here as I could be construed as a biased interested party whatever I say.

Pepe or a path back to the 80s. Lovely.
 
green_smiley said:
Was hoping for more feedback regarding my team. Will reply mazhar as soon as I have the time
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It's fine. You have lots of time anyways.

Our match has been very quiet so far. I wonder why. Is it because of the lack of well-known players we're fielding (you more than me)? Or is it because it's really too close to call?
 
For those of you who voted for GS, I'd like to know what made you do that. At this moment, this thread's too quiet, and I'd like some more activity in here just to be able to do some discussions rather than just talk to myself. :boring:

@VivaJanuzaj @Skizzo @Kazi @Mani @PedroMendez

@Fergus' son Are you still not convinced by di Bartolomei in his free midfield role and Rivaldo + Savicevic in their free forward roles?
 
Not much in it personnel-wise. Prefer the balance of GS's team, and feel he's getting the best out of his players. Whereas I'm not sure the same can be said for your XI outside of the wingbacks.
 
Kazi said:
Not much in it personnel-wise. Prefer the balance of GS's team, and feel he's getting the best out of his players. Whereas I'm not sure the same can be said for your XI outside of the wingbacks.
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How am I not getting the best out of my players? Popescu is playing in his favoured libero role, and he's been effective in it for club and country. Nielsen's playing as the primary stopper on the left, the same exact role he played for Denmark and PSV. You also have Tassotti who's playing as the right central defender, and with Zanetti pushing up, he'll have ample moments to play as more of a right back anyways. Falcao was quite effective in a more free midfield role for Roma, winning the Scudetto with them once. He also played a more free midfield role for Brazil alongside Toninho (the same was in Roma as well). Jugovic is playing in the familiar box-to-box midfield role that he played in Sampdoria, Red Star, and Juventus, and he'll have the freedom to dribble past players to make space for himself as well as supply Rivaldo and Savicevic with his passing. di Bartolomei, as I mentioned earlier, frequently played in the attacking midfield role that I've currently deployed him in.

The only ones you can say that seem strange are Rivaldo and Savicevic up front, but I've done that to allow them to play their own natural mercurial game without having to worry about any sort of restrictions. These players are at their best when told to go do whatever they want, and that's what I'm allowing them to do. I can afford to do this as well with more disciplined teammates behind them providing support.
 
I'll try and get a bit more in depth later, I'm out right now. ..But basically I just wasn't sold on the idea of having two marauding wing backs, and three players in the final third all in free roles. There's no one I can picture making the runs in behind, or being the spearhead of the attack. Not to say those players can't score goals, because obviously they can...But I feel they'd be better with someone else to play off, rather than all being there without. I imagine them moving the ball around well, but without any real penetration.
 
Quality-wise, myself and mazhar have made our points. Obviously, we think our own team is the best, so I won't repeat the same thing again

Tactical-wise, I would like to clarify few things
mazhar13 said:
For my team on the attack, it looks even better than I thought. With no real defensive midfield player in the team, this should make it easier for me to break down GS.
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With my attacking threat, I think your team needs a holding midfielder. It seems you are playing Di Bartolomei as B2B, which I think is too much to ask. With no clear-cut strategy on whom will cover your back 3, it is very risky
mazhar13 said:
When starting off attacks, my deep-lying ball players will definitely get the time and space to start off attacks and pin back GS' team. None of GS' players (except Lerby, but he'll get dragged around anyways with his aggressive nature) will really worry me when I try to start off attacks. With two attack-minded midfielders in the team, GS needed someone with more control and discipline than Lerby in midfield to keep things balanced. However, by playing Lerby as the main defensive midfielder, things play into my hands as my players will be guaranteed to get spaces in midfield and in the final third outside the box to do the damage.
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Not sure whom your deep-lying ball players are. Di Bartolomei? From what I read, he is a DLP. Again, he is assigned too much tasks to be everywhere. Falcao? He is a B2B, and certainly can start the attack from deep. He is arguably your best midfielder on the pitch, that is why I assign Häßler to mark him closely. I am not expecting Häßler to negate Falcao 100%, just enough to not let him do as much as he pleases.
mazhar13 said:
With Causio being more of a right winger than a wing back (for GS' team and in real life) he'll have a difficult time dealing with Roberto Carlos. Roberto Carlos was pretty much like a great winger when going forward, demonstrating speed and good dribbling. It's not enough for just Causio (a winger, not a wing back) to deal with him, and Lerby/Collovati will need to support Causio in this case, leaving spaces for my other attacking players and vice versa.
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Causio can track back and has defensive quality to deal with R. Carlos. I think we have to agree to disagree here. Causio is not an ordinary winger either when attacking. Check out his gifs on the link in my OP.
mazhar13 said:
Zanetti will not really have to deal too much with Cabrini in this instance because it will mainly be Savicevic drifting out to the right side to stretch GS' back line and also keep Cabrini occupied and pegged back. His magical dribbling is one that will bamboozle even the best of players, and he demonstrated that when he won the European Cup with Red Star. Rivaldo is quite similar in this aspect. He'll be sure to keep GS' defensive players occupied, and a player of his ability is able to handle the pressure that he'd get from the opposition, and this will play well into my hands as spaces will be created for others to break into.
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Zanetti will have to deal Cabrini. It will be Savicevic vs Krol, whom is comfortable to track his movement

Rivaldo is a dangerous player, but with no clear target man on your side, he needs to be constantly upfront. If he drops deep, there is no one near my box to be a significant threat
mazhar13 said:
With so much talk of Hassler breaking through and causing me problems, GS forgets that I have Popescu who can sweep up accordingly with his great ability to read the game and experience as a central defender for PSV, and Jugovic will also be around to stop him from carrying the ball too far with his aggression and bite in midfield.
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Popescu can sweep up, but who is left to deal with Rivera?

Similarly, Olsen can also sweep up for my team when defending. Has this been mentioned?
 
green_smiley said:
With my attacking threat, I think your team needs a holding midfielder. It seems you are playing Di Bartolomei as B2B, which I think is too much to ask. With no clear-cut strategy on whom will cover your back 3, it is very risky
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green_smiley said:
Popescu can sweep up, but who is left to deal with Rivera?

Similarly, Olsen can also sweep up for my team when defending. Has this been mentioned?
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di Bartolomei isn't a box-to-box midfielder. He's an attacking midfielder with the freedom to dictate the game similar to Platini or Valderrama. For who'll cover the back 3, you fail to realise that, given that you only have 1 main striker, there's no point in me having to have Popescu stay back. The sweeping that he'll do will be for when one of the wider central defenders push up. Otherwise, if they're in their place, Popescu will have the chance to close down Rivera and make things tough for him. If that isn't the case, then I have Falcao who can make life tough for Rivera.

green_smiley said:
Not sure whom your deep-lying ball players are. Di Bartolomei? From what I read, he is a DLP. Again, he is assigned too much tasks to be everywhere. Falcao? He is a B2B, and certainly can start the attack from deep. He is arguably your best midfielder on the pitch, that is why I assign Häßler to mark him closely. I am not expecting Häßler to negate Falcao 100%, just enough to not let him do as much as he pleases.
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My main deep-lying ball players are Popescu and Falcao. Popescu is a player who's capable of starting off attacks, and if Falcao is ever closed down, Popescu will be the outlet to start off attacks. Then, with di Bartolomei in a free midfield role, he'll be allowed to drop back to look for the ball and support Falcao. He has done this many times when he wasn't a libero/deep-lying playmaker in his later years. Plus, with di Bartolomei's vertical movement, Lerby will naturally gravitate towards him, leaving spaces for Rivaldo and Savicevic to exploit. Plus, you're forgetting about Jugovic, who, as the video demonstrates, is able to start off attacks and build up play with his technique on the ball, range of passing, and vision. With Falcao, Jugovic, Popescu, and di Bartolomei, I have a diamond that can run the game from midfield. With your almost man-to-man setup in midfield, this will play to my advantage as the front 2 + wing backs can exploit the gaps left by your midfield.

green_smiley said:
Causio can track back and has defensive quality to deal with R. Carlos. I think we have to agree to disagree here. Causio is not an ordinary winger either when attacking. Check out his gifs on the link in my OP.
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What defensive qualities? All I've seen is a winger who was very good at supporting teammates in defence with his work rate. Since you don't seem to have a defender who's comfortable drifting out to the right, you're left in a precarious situation where it's just Causio vs. Roberto Carlos. I think many of us will agree that that's a battle that Roberto Carlos would win. It's not like Causio is a solid man-marker or good tracker of players. He's a winger, not a wing back! Plus, you have no GIF's demonstrating these supposed defensive qualities of Causio's.

green_smiley said:
Zanetti will have to deal Cabrini. It will be Savicevic vs Krol, whom is comfortable to track his movement

Rivaldo is a dangerous player, but with no clear target man on your side, he needs to be constantly upfront. If he drops deep, there is no one near my box to be a significant threat
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To think that Krol can easily close down Savicevic is quite naive, in my opinion. This is the same Savicevic who tormented Barcelona's back line in the 1994 Champions League final in the exact same role I'm currently playing him in. He caused lots of torment for Barjuan and Koeman with his dribbling and movement, and his performance in that match epitomises the way he plays for my team. With his close control and dribbling, Krol will have a tough time dealing with Savicevic individually. If this remains a 1-on-1 battle, Savicevic will cause lots of problems for Krol with his dribbling, flair, and unpredictability.

Also, my main threats are from playing breaking your defensive line with runs from deep. These runs can come from Savicevic, di Bartolomei, Rivaldo, a wing back, or one of my box-to-box midfielders. This lack of a presence up front means that Olsen will have a tougher time sweeping up at the back as I'll threats from multiple angles and areas depending on the situation. If the ball goes out wide, I have confidence in Rivaldo winning the ball in the air or di Bartolomei ghosting into the box to get a shot on goal. I have full confidence in Rivaldo, Savicevic, Roberto Carlos, and di Bartolomei taking dangerous long shots from outside the box when they can. Inside the box, my front 2 + di Bartolomei are all capable finishers. Without some main presence up front, GS' defence will have a tough time picking out a threat or two.
 
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