All Time Chain Draft - R1: antohan vs Joga/Annah

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

vs

.......................................... Team antohan ....................................................................... Team Joga/Annah ...............................


TEAM ANTOHAN

Tactics:

The team has been built around a homage to Uruguay’s inspiration of Italy’s catenaccio sides. It’s a straightforward well-known setup that all my players are well drilled for and completely familiar and at home with their roles.

It features:

• a rock solid well-protected defence,
• superb distribution from deep (Scirea, Figueroa, Gonçalves)
• players capable of carrying out quick counter-attacking transitions down the flanks (Facchetti and Abbadie) or through the middle (Cubillas, with Varela more likely a second wave edge-of-the-box-loose-ball twatter)
• finishing them off through Altafini’s pace and poaching instincts (Inzaghi on steroids, basically) and the unique combination of acrobatic plasticity and brute force Boninsegna brings to the table.

My rival:

Will be playing a 4-3-3 featuring some fantastic and more famous players. I have watched the 1970 World Cup several times so know full well how you will all be torn by the muppet in you. With regards to that I would like to point out:

1. There’s a distinct lack of Pelé. Not a minor point given how crucial he was to that side functioning properly. Sure, Didí will take up playmaking duties which will be in some halfway house between Gerson and Pelé. What he can’t provide is his presence in the box, his hold up play, the way he rose above defences to knock down balls for others to capitalize. Enzo won’t provide that either, he was great as a striker in counter-attacking setups. I’d love to have him in my team, running at a through ball from Abbadie or Cubillas and facing a goalie 1-on-1. That’s not going to happen here though; the space for it simply won’t be there.

2. Ergo, he lacks goalscoring. By comparison, all my front three have been top scorers in their respective leagues and beyond. Boninsegna in Serie A twice (46 goals in 56 games at his peak), Altafini in Serie A (86 in 115 at his peak) and the top scorer in a single European Cup until CR7 beat his record - but not on a gpg basis, 14 in 9!. Cubillas is the highest scoring midfielder in World Cup history with 10 goals in 13 games (also three times league top scorer but in suspect leagues). In the meantime, his forwards range between 1 in 3 and 1 in 2 in pretty crap leagues.

3. I own this game aerially. It isn’t just the complete lack of an aerial threat from Joga relative to my defenders, but the very real threat of my strikers against his two sweepers. I have a lot of time for Tresor, less so Mauro Ramos, but neither are going to do the traditional stopper job which will be crucial here. You know the one, that guy with less silks but who will just boot a ball out of the stadium and calmly trot back to his place, his chest filled with pride from the crowd’s ovation. A Bellini if you will. Nope, these are primarily silky game-reading footballers who won't be in their element dealing with an air raid (the Facchetti-Boninsegna route being a proven combination). I mean, what sort of defender gets called Marta Rocha anyway? Can you imagine Nemanja Vidic being referred to as Heidi Klum? No, I didn’t think so.

The midfield “battle”

Will be an ongoing one. We both have the right sort of player for what we are trying to accomplish. Didí and Cubillas are at the same level, just different in that one is more the patient passing-game playmaker and the other a more direct, pacier and better dribbler making play on the run. Neither manager would swap there. Zito and Gonçalves are about equal. Tito is crucial for me as a midfield enforcer with great attacking instincts and an eye for the right defence-splitting pass from deep, Zito (along with Mauro Silva, the only Brazilian DM who isn't a DLP masquerading as a DM) will do his very best to stop Cubillas and will win some and lose some as will always be the case when you have oceans of space to cover. Varela is a superior player to Tigana except in athleticism but, again, I can see an argument why you wouldn’t swap them given our respective setups. Abbadie will help protect the flank against Santos, letting the two DMs focus on keeping things compact through the middle.

I don’t plan to be superior or inferior. I don’t plan to starve him of possession either (my direct counter-attacking style will give them plenty of ball back), I just plan to keep things controlled, let them fanny around with the ball, lure them in, then hit them back Wham! Bam! It’s not soaking as in backs against the wall defending for your lives, it’s keeping things tidy, controlled and luring so as to create space for the counter, rather than soaking uncontrolled pressure.

Why I win:

· I have a better and expertly protected defence, he ain’t scoring in a month of Sundays. At best he will nick one from range, if I don't close him down well, which is unlikely.

· I own the aerial route and will score at least once from that (if not more if you factor in the advantage in set pieces)

· I have the benefit of space and the right delivery and execution to exploit it. As Abbadie said: “where there is space, the attacker always has the advantage”

· I have proper goalscorers. All of my front three have been league top scorers with records closer to 1 in 1 than 1 in 2, his range between 1 in 3 and 1 in 2.

· I have the personnel to control the game from start to finish

· My players have the mentality and character to rise to challenges like this

· I have Brazilian kryptonite: Obdulio Jacinto Varela, captaining the side, and Scirea from the ’82 vintage!


LINKS TO PLAYER PROFILES: BACK 5 - MIDFIELD - ATTACK

DECADES: 10s: Varela; 20s: Buffon, Víctor Rodríguez Andrade, Hohberg; 30s: Gonçalves, Abbadie, Altafini; 40s: Facchetti, Figueroa, Boninsegna; 50s: Scirea

 

[antohan]

The myth of the samba boys​

As I mentioned before, I too grew up admiring that 1970s side, their beautiful play and how convincingly they won that World Cup.

But, as I mentioned before, there’s no Pelé here nor anyone providing a commanding presence in the box. There’s also another often overlooked but very relevant fact: that Brazil side had everything going for them, courtesy of João Havelange’s prominence as FIFAs President-in-waiting.

There’s no conspiracy theories here, just simple verifiable fachts:

1. Brazil were seeded and allocated to Jalisco in Guadalajara, i.e. they played at sea level

2. The semifinals were supposed to all be played in Mexico City’s Azteca stadium at 2000m above sea level

3. Once Mexico didn’t go first in their group, FIFA altered the schedule: the semi Mexico’s and Brazil’s path lead to was switched to the Jalisco Stadium, i.e. Brazil would play “at home” the entire World Cup bar the final.

4. Uruguay had to move from their camp to Mexico City to play at altitude vs. USSR (who had hijacked Mexico’s path). The game went into ET, and after the game Uruguay had to move again to Jalisco to play Brazil.

5. Italy and Germany played their semifinal at Mexico City’s 2000mts above sea level. That game also went into extra time.

6. Playing at high altitude has three major effects: 1. The ball moves quicker, 2. The levels of oxygen intake are inferior, leading to more anaerobic activity, which leads to greater muscle fatigue, energy and weight loss, 3. The fatigue has lasting effects for post-match recovery, it is usually recommended that teams that need to play at altitude go there two weeks beforehand or get in and out on the same day, as Brazil were privileged to do.

7. Of course, it isn’t Brazil’s fault that all these things favour a passing style of play like theirs over high tempo/sudden energy exertions of counter-attacking sides. It isn’t their fault either that both their semifinal and final opponents had to play 120 minutes in the prior match. It is however very convenient that they also had to do it at altitude while the Brazilians remained well rested and at full strength at sea level.

8. All the games played in the Azteca stadium had an inordinate amount of late goals, which is a direct result of the effects of altitude. Notoriously, that mental semifinal between Germany and Italy with five goals in 30 minutes when the score after 90mins had been 1-1.

9. Brazil actually went behind in both their semi and final, managed to equalize, and it was only in the last 15 and 25 minutes (respectively) that they ran up their convincing scorelines.

10. I’m not saying they weren’t the best team or that they shouldn’t or wouldn’t have won. All I’m saying is much of the myth around that team and how they dispatched their opponents is down to external factors and that the scorelines don’t reflect clear superiority as much as they reflect the total mental and physical exhaustion of their rivals behind those capitulations.

POINT BEING​

It follows that, given the above and the absence of Pelé, both Jairzinho and Rivelino would be more accurately assessed on the back of their 1974 World Cup performances. In fact, you could argue at 29 and 28 respectively that would be their actual peak, not 25 and 24. Did they score? Yes, against the likes of Zaire.

Brazil couldn’t score at all against Netherlands, Poland, Yugoslavia or Scotland. None of them had a defence like mine. They only managed to win against Zaire, East Germany (1-0) and one of the poorest Argentinian sides ever (one that only managed a single win, against Haiti).

I rest my case.

PS: MAURO RAMOS IS SHOCKING - LINK​

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

TEAM JOGA/ANNAH

First and foremost, let's get to the root of the most drastic feature of our team - Enzo playing as the #9.

It is a position in which Enzo has played in before, and was quite brilliant at in fact - managing to combine several of his cerebral qualities, in perfection with the electric zest that the young Enzo possessed. He thrived up front for Montevideo Wanderers and in his first goal-laden spell for River Plate. During this four stint, Francescoli scored 68 goals from 113 matches for River Plate, winning the Argentine Primera Division top scorer award twice, being voted the South American Footballer of the Year and the Player of the Year in Argentina, all whilst bagging a Copa America Player of the Tournament in 1983 for good measure.

A fantastic compilation by antohan with plenty of goals from the younger incarnation of Francescoli. @ Zidane creaming himself over Enzo.



A full match of Enzo up front for those interested

Spoiler: Enzo Match

DEFENSE

1986 WC winner Nery Pumpido provides a reliable and solid presence at the back. The complementary defensive duo of the "bear faced mule" Tresor and the classy M.Ramos will pose as an imposing impasse for oncoming forwards. Not only were they rock solid defensively but they were also excellent players on the ball. Tresor has played as a sweeper for France before and was a fine ball-playing defender whilst M.Ramos was renowned for his ball playing skills. They don't have to do a Beckenbauer here, but they can easily take part in build-up plays and their abilities on the ball means that there are no weak chinks in the team during the possession phase.

C.Alberto was much more than just a full-back and was a playmaker from the back, capable of orchestrating attacks from behind and also at bursting forward at the opportune moment, with class and panache. With his favoured partner in crime, Jairzinho, ahead of him, he reprises his 1970 role here - looking to support the attack when needed and being the prime outlet from the back, during the possession phase. N.Santos, the father of buccaneering wing-back play, was more than capable of manning his flank single-handedly, all whilst keeping things tight at the back. N. Santos wasn't just a purely attacking wing-back either but also a classy operator from the back, taking a more cerebral approach when needed to keep things ticking along. With the fairly narrow Rivelino ahead of him, N.Santos has the full flank to himself to dominate and leave his mark, with his quality service and resolute defending.

MIDFIELD

The one-man shield Zito plays as the defensive midfielder and will provide the ideal platform for his more flashy peers to shine in - his WC winning manager Feola labelled him "a rock on which the team revolved". Once again his all-round play was superb and the very fact that Dunga was often unfavourably compared with Zito by the Brazilian faithful, speaks volumes. With the presence of fellow dynamo J.Tigana, they will prove to be a nightmarish brickwall for the opposition with their tireless hounding, in combination with their steel and slick passing. Tigana's experience in playing with the likes of Giresse and Platini will stand him in good stead here as he will play with similar technical geniuses. Tigana in his own right, was a top notch playmaker and will combine well with Didi here, whilst playing his usual dynamic box to box role. Didi, the best player on the pitch, will be the orchestrator of this team and his dribbling, allied with his pin-point passing game will create chances galore for his forwards. Didi was also a potent goal threat from the midfield and had a one in three average throughout his career. In fact, he is the only central midfielder to win the Golden Ball in a World Cup and is widely regarded as the best playmaking central midfielder of all time.


ATTACK

Rivelino will look to occupy the inside left channels and link up with the likes of Francescoli, Didi and Tigana centrally whilst utilizing N.Santos's barnstorming runs on the outside, to its fullest potential. Not much needs to be said about the idol of Ronaldinho and one Diego Maradona. On the opposite flank Rivelino's partner in crime, Jairzinho will be looking to provide width, link-up with C.Alberto and most importantly, cut inside and fully exploit his phenomenal one-in-two goalscoring potential. With the fluid Enzo to link up with, Jairzinho will enjoy plenty of tactical room to manoeuvre in, whilst also feasting on a never-ending stream of quality supply. One of only two players to have scored in every single game of a victorious WC campaign, Jairzinho will be a hurricane to reckon with.

The younger and explosive incarnation of Enzo Francescoli will be playing as the #9. However, do not mistake him for just a tactical cog in the system. Enzo was a match-winner in his own right, as he rightly showed for both River Plate and Uruguay during this period, and poses a significant danger by himself with his other-worldy technique, blistering pace and deadly finishing ability (bagged 57 goals in the league alone in two seasons for River). Having a cerebral and selfless forward also serves to be a boon for the likes of Rivelino, Didi and Tigana whilst in possession, and the incisive Jairzinho would be chomping at the bits at the thought of linking up with the creative and intelligent Francescoli.


KEY POINTS

1) Flair in tandem with steel

Spoiler

The team stays true to its Samba roots and with several sublime geniuses at its helm, it's bound to play some scintillating football. It is a side in which even the defensive midfielder and the entire back four could play some cracking technical football. Joga Bonito at it's finest, needless to say.

However, we are at pains to emphasise that this isn't just a fancy and ultimately a spineless side, lacking in fortitude and resolve.

The team is reinforced with the 1978 French captain Marius Tresor; the 1962 WC winning captain Mauro Ramos; one-club man and Botafogo's captain N.Santos who was a well-respected figure and commanded immense respect from his peers - probably the only player who could keep Garrincha under check or more like Garrincha keeping himself in check voluntarily, solely out of the great respect he had for the legend; 1970 WC winning skipper C.Alberto (nicknamed the captain) who had the cojones to keep the greatest national team ever, overflowing with ego, well under the reins and led them to a glorious WC winning campaign; Zito, the captain of the greatest Brazilian club side ever and the one who almost single-handedly provided the steely presence and platform for the 58/62 Brazilian vintage to excel.

One only has to read up the anecdote about Didi after conceding the first goal against Sweden in the 1958 WC final, to understand what he was all about. This most certainly won't be your 'average' Brazilian side.

2) Proven and complementary partnerships

Spoiler

The team has obvious chemistry, given that it mostly consists of players from the successful 1958-62 and 1970 Brazilian vintages. C.Alberto-Jairzinho make for a formidable right flank, which was one of the strongest features of the Brazil 1970 WC winners. Their chemistry and quality could rankle even the sturdiest of left flanks, as a certain LB found out in the 1970 WC final.

Didi-Zito were the foundation on which the 1958 & 1962 sides were built on. Whilst adding Tigana doesn't strictly make it the same exact partnership, it doesn't completely strip away the immaculate understanding and chemistry that the duo possessed.

Rivelino-Jairzinho were absolutely immense as a pair as they perfectly complemented each other - Rivelino's panache and class to Jairzinho's explosiveness and deadliness.

As I alluded to before, Tresor-M.Ramos make for a commanding duo who supplement each other and the ball-playing team perfectly. M.Ramos during the victorious 1962 WC campaign, played with Zozimo, a ball playing centre-back who started off as a creative midfielder. Tresor brings much more to the table with his sheer physicality and leadership qualities to boot.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Game on~

@antohan @Joga Bonito @Annahnomoss

All the best!

Edit: Delete your annoying post in the middle of OP anto!

 

[antohan]

Game on~

@antohan @Joga Bonito @Annahnomoss

All the best!

Edit: Delete your annoying post in the middle of OP anto!

It was originally part of my OP. I had left it out so you could stick both in one post but since you didn't...

 

[Annahnomoss]

Facchetti who is a wing-back will be exposed by one of the best flanks in history in Jairzinho and Carlos Alberto as he's left alone to handle the entire left side for Antohan. Our biggest direct threat faces only Facchetti here who is required to also try and provide width.

 

[antohan]

Good to see that Enzo clip has been put to good use after all. I put it together in a previous draft when Annah had him... then decided not to even play his game

One correction, he only got league top scorer once. Not that it matters, I won't question him being a superb #9 in his day, just not the sort you need here.

As an example, you can look at Jairzinho vs. Facchetti in 1970, with Facchetti clearly pacing himself to deal with the altitude (he goes on a run and halfway down the pitch stops and just passes it sideways, clearly aware he couldn't do his usual). The only time Jairzinho gets the better of him is when he scores... after a knockdown by Pelé. But Pelé isn't on the pitch and that isn't happening with Figueroa and Scirea in the box.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Campeonata de Primera Division
1984 Goleador:

Enzo Francescoli (24 goles)
1986 Goleador:

Enzo Francescoli (25 goles)

The video just further highlights the fact that Facchetti will struggle to provide width, offering 1 cross in the entire game if we go by that and he had to resort to fouling Jairzinho several times just outside the box in dangerous free-kick situations.

Jairzinho is constantly attacking him while Facchetti mainly tries to defend and Jairzinho gets past him several times through the game and also scores a goal. That is without even getting in to the match that Carlos Alberto had who also played on the same side - together they scored two goals against Facchetti and we could expect it to rain chances from that side here again.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

I just don't know. Worst possible draw for either team. I can't see @Joga Bonito beating that defense with Enzo as the striker, but I can't see anything but a Joga/Annah domination of the match with that mouthwashing midfield.

To be honest, I really don't think I can vote in this. I don't know enough of @antohan players, even with all the top writeups about them I just can't help feeling like I'm leaning towards Joga's team simply because I don't know enough of anto's players, and that wouldn't be fair. On the other hand, I do know anto's defenders, and I can't see a way for that side being broken down with enzo as a striker.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

@Annahnomoss how often did he actually play as the striker? And don't give me that versatility bull I know he's versatille but didn't he mostly play behind the striker(anywhere behind him)?

 

[antohan]

Facchetti who is a wing-back will be exposed by one of the best flanks in history in Jairzinho and Carlos Alberto as he's left alone to handle the entire left side for Antohan. Our biggest direct threat faces only Facchetti here who is required to also try and provide width.

I expected you to say that. He didn't seem in too much trouble from the clip above. Moreover, Carlos Alberto won't be doubling up (as he didn't for most of the game in 1970).

If he did, you have three HUGE problems:

1. Faccchetti is much faster than Carlos so upon recoovery he would be tearing him a new one as he tries to get back in position.
2. Cubillas usually dropped into the left-to-centre of midfield space to receive and start his moves. If Carlos has gone AWOL he has ocean's of space in front of him, with Facchetti joining him before Carlos is anywhere near his post.
3. If Zito comes across tracking Cubillas then he leaves a giant hole between the lines for Boninsegna and Altafini to receive in (Boninsegna can also work the left flank, a leftie himself, he was quite adept at it).

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

@antohan @Joga Bonito @Annahnomoss

I wonder how would you comprise a combined XI from both teams?

 

[Annahnomoss]

@Annahnomoss how often did he actually play as the striker? And don't give me that versatility bull I know he's versatille but didn't he mostly play behind the striker(anywhere behind him)?

He played as a striker during his first stint at River Plate, that was his position, and he was the teams major outlet for scoring goals.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

He played as a striker during his first stint at River Plate, that was his position, and he was the teams major outlet for scoring goals.

Yeah but this is the actual thing, how many did he score as a striker coming against CBs as prolific as these two?

 

[antohan]

Campeonata de Primera Division
1984 Goleador:

Enzo Francescoli (24 goles)
1986 Goleador:

Enzo Francescoli (25 goles)

The first wasn't Primera División. It was one of the many spastic leagues and half-year tournos the Argies have done over the years. Rather irrelevant anyway, it doesn't compare to two consecutive Serie A top scorer awards by Boninsegna, Altafini's cappocanionero award or being the top scorer in a single European Cup with 14 in 9 (including the winner in a final).

The video just further highlights the fact that Facchetti will struggle to provide width, offering 1 cross in the entire game if we go by that and he had to resort to fouling Jairzinho several times just outside the box in dangerous free-kick situations.

Jairzinho is constantly attacking him while Facchetti mainly tries to defend and Jairzinho gets past him several times through the game and also scores a goal.

As mentioned, there were other external circumstances in that specific game. Not that he only provided a single cross, that's a vs. Jairzinho clip.

No one in his right mind will accept that Giacinto Facchetti, the best attacking leftback in the game's history will shy away from providing width. He is well covered by both Gonçalves and Figueroa anyway. You are dreaming up some parallel universe which simply won't happen here.

Netherlands, Poland, Yugoslavia and Scotland could all keep a clean sheet against your boys and my defence is a massive upgrade on any of them.

 

[Annahnomoss]

@antohan @Joga Bonito @Annahnomoss

I wonder how would you comprise a combined XI from both teams?

Nilton/Facchetti are a draw and you can go with either. Facchetti being a wing back who is worse defensively and Nilton being more of an offensive full back, between them it is just about what role you want them to play and who suits that the most.

--------------------Enzo------------------
----Rivelino---------------------Jairzinho
--------------------Didi-------------------
-------------Tigana----Varela------------
N.Santos--Figueroa--Scirea--C. Alberto

 

[antohan]

I just don't know. Worst possible draw for either team. I can't see @Joga Bonito beating that defense with Enzo as the striker, but I can't see anything but a Joga/Annah domination of the match with that mouthwashing midfield.

To be honest, I really don't think I can vote in this. I don't know enough of @antohan players, even with all the top writeups about them I just can't help feeling like I'm leaning towards Joga's team simply because I don't know enough of anto's players, and that wouldn't be fair. On the other hand, I do know anto's defenders, and I can't see a way for that side being broken down with enzo as a striker.

Obdulio you should be familiar with, that's Didí out of the picture as much as anyone could muster. For Gonçalves you should probably have a look at the clips I posted here to see what he will offer in terms of his smarts in finding the right pass to exploit counter opportunities. Teófilo Cubillas I made a write up on here, same with Abbadie.

The only other thing I could do for you is provide some PES stats really. Would that be any help?

 

[antohan]

Yeah but this is the actual thing, how many did he score as a striker coming against CBs as prolific as these two?

For a Serie A record as striker (in a pair, in fairness) you can look at his Cagliari record: 17 goals in 98 games. Shit team though.

I'll happily accept he was a great lone striker in a setup like Montevideo Wanderers', i.e. a counterattacking side, leaving him scampering down the pitch and one on one with the goalie regularly. Fat chance that will happen here. He would get in my team though, no doubt about that, would love to see Figueroa, Scirea, Gonçalves and Abbadie playing him on for fun.

 

[antohan]

@antohan @Joga Bonito @Annahnomoss

I wonder how would you comprise a combined XI from both teams?

I have plans for Enzo (given up on Pepe and Cubillas is a great fit).

No interest in any of the rest, they don't suit me any better than what I already have. Abbadie is doing a right midfield job and if I were ever to play a right winger I'm looking forward to having Joya as an option.

 

[antohan]

Nilton/Facchetti are a draw and you can go with either. Facchetti being a wing back who is worse defensively and Nilton being more of an offensive full back, between them it is just about what role you want them to play and who suits that the most.

--------------------Enzo------------------
----Rivelino---------------------Jairzinho
--------------------Didi-------------------
-------------Tigana----Varela------------
N.Santos--Figueroa--Scirea--C. Alberto

Hogwash. There's nothing in that Jairzinho clip worse than the runaround your man got from an ancient Stanley Matthews.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Yeah but this is the actual thing, how many did he score as a striker coming against CBs as prolific as these two?

I don't think a lot of players ever got tested against all-time quality players and that of course goes for all the players on the pitch and not Enzo alone. Watch the video of him and you will see the qualities he had and the fact that he was a great striker and scoring 54 league goals in two seasons alone is pretty incredible, especially in the manner he scored them. He will have plenty of chances on the break and is good enough to occupy the centre backs and get shots off thanks to his acceleration and dribbling.

He's also far from our only route to goal, Facchetti here in a similar role saw Italy concede 4 goals and 2 of those goals came from Jairzinho/Carlos Alberto and they also created a plethora of chances while Facchetti created nearly nothing going forward.

Didi also scored 1 in every 3 matches he played and then we have Rivelino/Nilton Santos who will dominate their flank as well. Mauro Ramos played together with Zozimo, a ball playing defender, in the 1962 who is very similar to Tresor but a physically and technically far inferior player and his offense of Boninsegna/Altafini are facing a world class defense. He doesn't have much width on the left flank either so Carlos Alberto who was a great centre back as well is ideal for tucking in too.

The only way he could deal with that would be to send Facchetti up more offensively which would open big holes in the back when Enzo counters through the middle and Jairzinho has acres of space down the right.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Obdulio you should be familiar with, that's Didí out of the picture as much as anyone could muster. For Gonçalves you should probably have a look at the clips I posted here to see what he will offer in terms of his smarts in finding the right pass to exploit counter opportunities. Teófilo Cubillas I made a write up on here, same with Abbadie.

The only other thing I could do for you is provide some PES stats really. Would that be any help?

Nah, PES stats are as good as nothing. I actually know a bit of Cubillas(maybe from former drafts), but I'll look into the rest. Really enjoyed your writeup too. Thanks for the responses you and @Annahnomoss , I mainly wanted to spark the arguments a bit and to get some knowledge for a decision, I can still go either way or not vote at all but I will read a bit more and than decide.

 

[Gio]

Nilton/Facchetti are a draw and you can go with either. Facchetti being a wing back who is worse defensively and Nilton being more of an offensive full back, between them it is just about what role you want them to play and who suits that the most.

--------------------Enzo------------------
----Rivelino---------------------Jairzinho
--------------------Didi-------------------
-------------Tigana----Varela------------
N.Santos--Figueroa--Scirea--C. Alberto

Yeah I'm not sure about that from the footage I've seen. I'd also factor in how Facchetti spent his later years operating as a sweeper, which is rarely the domain of the gung-ho, attack-minded wing-back, rather the preserve of the tactically astute game-reader.

 

[antohan]

I just don't know. Worst possible draw for either team. I can't see @Joga Bonito beating that defense with Enzo as the striker, but I can't see anything but a Joga/Annah domination of the match with that mouthwashing midfield.

To be honest, I really don't think I can vote in this. I don't know enough of @antohan players, even with all the top writeups about them I just can't help feeling like I'm leaning towards Joga's team simply because I don't know enough of anto's players, and that wouldn't be fair. On the other hand, I do know anto's defenders, and I can't see a way for that side being broken down with enzo as a striker.

Here you go. @mazhar13 can probbably shed more light on the meaning of all these things as I'm not quite sure what greater agression means (rash?) or what's the difference between heading and jumping (similar heights, I'd assume jumping is more important for a defensive player than the acccuracy of their headers).

Overall I think it supports what I said: they are about equal, with Tito the better long passer and Zito better at short passing. Which is exactly what either team need from their man.

Anyone else you need?

 

[Joga Bonito]

Good to see that Enzo clip has been put to good use after all. I put it together in a previous draft when Annah had him... then decided not to even play his game

One correction, he only got league top scorer once. Not that it matters, I won't question him being a superb #9 in his day, just not the sort you need here.

As an example, you can look at Jairzinho vs. Facchetti in 1970, with Facchetti clearly pacing himself to deal with the altitude (he goes on a run and halfway down the pitch stops and just passes it sideways, clearly aware he couldn't do his usual). The only time Jairzinho gets the better of him is when he scores... after a knockdown by Pelé. But Pelé isn't on the pitch and that isn't happening with Figueroa and Scirea in the box.

Here to take over from Annah. From the vid alone you have Facchetti who makes a foul right at the start of the vid which could very well have been a red card, had it not been for the covering defender. Once again in 1.30 he makes a dangerous foul right outside the box. So I can't see how he only got the better of him once, unless you think fouling him in dangerous areas with Rivelino, Francescoli and Didi lurking about over the free kick is a win-win. Oh and I wouldn't mind it if Jairzinho only gets the better of Facchetti once here, like he did in 1970, that should be more than a job well done.

Yeah I'm not sure about that from the footage I've seen. I'd also factor in how Facchetti spent his later years operating as a sweeper, which is rarely the domain of the gung-ho, attack-minded wing-back, rather the preserve of the tactically astute game-reader.

Tbf, I have to disagree with Annah there too as I will place Facchetti over Nilton defensively but from an overall perspective they weren't far off as the complete packages. Won't exchange either of them in both the teams and they fit their respective teams perfectly.

 

[antohan]

Nah, PES stats are as good as nothing. I actually know a bit of Cubillas(maybe from former drafts), but I'll look into the rest. Really enjoyed your writeup too. Thanks for the responses you and @Annahnomoss , I mainly wanted to spark the arguments a bit and to get some knowledge for a decision, I can still go either way or not vote at all but I will read a bit more and than decide.

Really? I'd assume the junkies getting embroiled in that would have a reasonably good basis to put them together. Funny enough, the ones above were put together by a Brazilian and a Uruguayan, but the Brazilian did Gonçalves and the Uruguayan did Zito and I'm sure they double-check/control each other.

They certainly reflect my understanding of both players.

 

[Joga Bonito]

I don’t plan to be superior or inferior. I don’t plan to starve him of possession either (my direct counter-attacking style will give them plenty of ball back), I just plan to keep things controlled, let them fanny around with the ball, lure them in, then hit them back Wham! Bam! It’s not soaking as in backs against the wall defending for your lives, it’s keeping things tidy, controlled and luring so as to create space for the counter, rather than soaking uncontrolled pressure.

From what I've seen of Tito (the River vs Penarol 1966 game on youtube), he was a decent passer and someone who could keep things ticking along and the same for Varela from all accounts. Decent on the ball and a good short passing game. Cubillas too was a direct attacking midfielder/second striker type who preferred to play those nippy one-twos and was more of a direct player than a playmaker or someone who could play long raking balls. Your side lacks that bit of creativity and that long range passer to be truly a threat on the counter imo. This tactic would have been much more feasible with a Schaffino or an Enzo but I'm struggling to see you execute your preferred tactics with your current personnel. Needless to say, I'd back Tresor (who most certainly isn't the shrinking violet that you are alluding him to be) and Ramos to have the handle on Altafini and Boninsegna, given the dearth of supply they will have, in a game in which they won't see much of the ball.

Cubillas pace and directness is a worry but he faces the athletic Tigana and the steadfast Zito here whom I'm sure will do a good job at handling him.

 

[antohan]

He's also far from our only route to goal, Facchetti here in a similar role saw Italy concede 4 goals and 2 of those goals came from Jairzinho/Carlos Alberto and they also created a plethora of chances while Facchetti created nearly nothing going forward.

You are clearly choosing to ignore the effects of altitude on sportsmen. And the fact both scored thanks to an assist from the missing elephant in the room: Edson Arantes do Nascimento. He isn't on the pitch.

Didi also scored 1 in every 3 matches he played and then we have Rivelino/Nilton Santos who will dominate their flank as well. Mauro Ramos played together with Zozimo, a ball playing defender, in the 1962 who is very similar to Tresor but a physically and technically far inferior player and his offense of Boninsegna/Altafini are facing a world class defense. He doesn't have much width on the left flank either so Carlos Alberto who was a great centre back as well is ideal for tucking in too.

The only way he could deal with that would be to send Facchetti up more offensively which would open big holes in the back when Enzo counters through the middle and Jairzinho has acres of space down the right.

Feck it, I'm not going to get into pointless exchanges with someone and just resorting to hyperbole and depicting things which blatantly aren't happening.

Rodríguez Andrade kept Czibor in his pomp in check, Puskas himself said he was the best he had seen guarding the right flank. Abbadie I'm afraid people will have to go with what I'm saying. For what it's worth his PES stats are comparable and sometimes better than Jairzinho's, but those are for the winger and I'm not playing the winger but the more experienced and cerebral right midfielder. He'll track Nilton, no problem.

Rivelino isn't even a winger, he is largely clashing with Enzo who loved operating at inside left, and they are in a triangle of death between Scirea, Varela and Rodríguez Andrade. feck all is happening there.

And your defence isn't world class. It has one one world class player, a very good one, and they aren't a particularly good combo. Quite clearly.

 

[antohan]

From what I've seen of Tito (the River vs Penarol 1966 game on youtube), he was a decent passer and someone who could keep things ticking along and the same for Varela from all accounts. Decent on the ball and a good short passing game.

That's what you inferred from two assists and an assist to the assister? That's three goals he was directly involved in. Keep things ticking my arse.

Cubillas too was a direct attacking midfielder/second striker type who preferred to play those nippy one-twos and was more of a direct player than a playmaker or someone who could play long raking balls.

Agreed, I brought him on as a ball carrier. Scirea, Figueroa, Gonçalves and Abbadie are playing those balls.

Your side lacks that bit of creativity and that long range passer to be truly a threat on the counter imo. This tactic would have been much more feasible with a Schaffino or an Enzo but I'm struggling to see you execute your preferred tactics with your current personnel. Needless to say, I'd back Tresor (who most certainly isn't the shrinking violet that you are alluding him to be) and Ramos to have the handle on Altafini and Boninsegna, given the dearth of supply they will have, in a game in which they won't see much of the ball.

I don't think I called Tresor a shrinking violet, nothing of the sort. Your problem is Mauro Ramos against Boninsegna with Facchetti delivering for him. Proven partnership and route to goal there. You look at the top 10 Boninsegna goals I posted and I think three are off Facchetti assists.

I'm not planning on scoring tonnes, just the two goals I need to be comfortable.

Cubillas pace and directness is a worry but he faces the athletic Tigana and the steadfast Zito here whom I'm sure will do a good job at handling him.

He is one of three transition channels. I accepted he will win some and lose some. He only needs to win enough.

 

[Joga Bonito]

@antohan @Joga Bonito @Annahnomoss

I wonder how would you comprise a combined XI from both teams?

I'd have his centre-back duo in our team. Nilton and Facchetti are fairly equal but I'll have Nilton in my team due to it's Brazilian roots and obviously Facchetti in his, as he fits the tactics better. I'd say Varela is a better individual than Zito but once again, the benefits don't outweigh separating the Didi-Zito partnership.

I can't see @Joga Bonito beating that defense with Enzo as the striker, but I can't see anything but a Joga/Annah domination of the match with that mouthwashing midfield.

how often did he actually play as the striker? And don't give me that versatility bull I know he's versatille but didn't he mostly play behind the striker(anywhere behind him)?

He played the first segment of his career up top for Monteviedo Wanderers and River Plate. Please read the first portion of our write-up which we've dedicated to Enzo alone. Watch the vid if you can mate!

It has one one world class player, a very good one, and they aren't a particularly good combo. Quite clearly.

M.Ramos forged a great partnership with Zozimo, a ball-playing creative midfielder who was converted into a centre-back. I don't get why he must be partnered with a hulking stopper for it to work and most importantly you are severely discounting Tresor's physicality and athleticism here. He did play as a sweeper but he was equally capable of playing as a reserved centre-back if needed. A Beckebauer/Passarella he was not.

 

[antohan]

Here to take over from Annah. From the vid alone you have Facchetti who makes a foul right at the start of the vid which could very well have been a red card, had it not been for the covering defender. Once again in 1.30 he makes a dangerous foul right outside the box. So I can't see how he only got the better of him once, unless you think fouling him in dangerous areas with Rivelino, Francescoli and Didi lurking about over the free kick is a win-win. Oh and I wouldn't mind it if Jairzinho only gets the better of Facchetti once here, like he did in 1970, that should be more than a job well done.

Fouls happen when you deal with these players. They will happen around your box as well. A couple of fouls (I largely saw others fouling, not Facchetti) here and there over a entire 90 minutes whenn mentally and physically exhausted. I'm not concerned.

Tbf, I have to disagree with Annah there too as I will place Facchetti over Nilton defensively but from an overall perspective they weren't far off as the complete packages. Won't exchange either of them in both the teams and they fit their respective teams perfectly.

I'd agree here. That's what I said for the most part, I can't see us swapping our players, they largely suit the tactics and their company better. I can of course see you wanting my CB pair, but I've also admitted Enzo would tear things up in my setup.

 

[antohan]

M.Ramos forged a great partnership with Zozimo a ball-playing creative midfielder who was converted into a centre-back. I don't get why he must be partnered with a hulking stopper for it to work and most importantly you are severely discounting Tresor's physicality and athleticism here. He did play as a sweeper but he was equally capable of playing as a reserved centre-back if needed. A Beckebauer/Passarella he was not.

I would never have Ramos as the player to deal with Boninsegna, it's pretty simple. Tresor has all the right attributes (still wouldn't be his favourite cup of tea), but he is dealing with a different kind of threat in Altafini looking to play off the shoulder and being a great goal poacher.

 

[Joga Bonito]

That's what you inferred from two assists and an assist to the assister? That's three goals he was directly involved in. Keep things ticking my arse

.

Like I simply said, he most certainly wasn't an accomplished long range passer of the ball or someone who can do a Pirlo/Didi etc on the ball, to set the forwards on the counter. A decent short passer and could certainly play a reasonable through ball every once in a while but if you are basing your counter-attacking strategy with him at the helm, I can't see it working to the desired effect.

Your problem is Mauro Ramos against Boninsegna with Facchetti delivering for him. Proven partnership and route to goal there. You look at the top 10 Boninsegna goals I posted and I think three are off Facchetti assists.

The difference being Facchetti is going to be fully occupied with the Jairzinho-C.Alberto flank. He didn't create much during the 1970 game for a reason and was man-marking Jairzinho throughout the game. With how crucial he is to your counter-attacking game, with an entire left flank dedicated to him ala Grande Inter style, he can't provide the width, service AND also keep Jairzinho under check (which he ultimately failed at but did a decent job of).

In the perfect World Cup, Jairzinho had the perfect record. With seven goals in six games, the winger is the only player in tournament history to score in every match.

But, as with all of the true greats, that is much more than a mere stat.

For a start, there was the remarkable range of goals. Against Czechoslovakia, he expertly lifted the ball over the keeper before finishing and then later beat three players. Against England, he powered it over Gordon Banks first time. Against Romania, he flicked one in.

Secondly, there the was the all-round play that so improved Brazil’s overall game. While his pace did give them a potent outlet – and he spent hours with Gerson trying to perfect timed runs on the midfielder’s calibrated cross-field balls – his own superb passing also added to the side’s dazzling angles of attack.

It was Jairzinho’s exceptional at-pace cross, after all, that brought such a fine save from Banks for Pele’s header. And it was all the more remarkable given the manner in which he ran onto Carlos Alberto’s ball.

And Jairzinho was much more than the indulged, pacy forward who demands through-balls. In the final itself, he showed an under-acknowledged tactical acumen by continually moving into the centre to draw out Giacinto Facchetti and leave the right side free for Carlos Alberto.

 

[antohan]

.

Like I simply said, he most certainly wasn't an accomplished long range passer of the ball or someone who can do a Pirlo/Didi etc on the ball, to set the forwards on the counter. A decent short passer and could certainly play a reasonable through ball every once in a while but if you are basing your counter-attacking strategy with him at the helm, I can't see it working to the desired effect.

The assist to the assister showed great instincts though.

In any case, as I've said countless times: I also have Figueroa, Scirea and Abbadie as superb passers. My outball from deep is guaranteed, and the space between your lines is going to be exploited over and over again.

The difference being Facchetti is going to be fully occupied with the Jairzinho-C.Alberto flank. He didn't create much during the 1970 game for a reason and was man-marking Jairzinho throughout the game. With how crucial he is to your counter-attacking game, with an entire left flank dedicated to him ala Grande Inter style, he can't provide the width, service AND also keep Jairzinho under check (which he ultimately failed at but did a decent job of).

He has Figueroa and Gonçalves to rely on for cover. No problem.

In the meantime, you don't have the sort of striker who could knock it down like Pelé did for him, nor would that sort of striker have much joy against Don Elías. You need someone who can destroy his CB aerially the way Boninsegna will against Mauro.

Jairzinho is just faffing around on the wing.

 

[Skizzo]

Whew this is gonna be a doozy. And harder to keep up with than a game of WW.

Two ridiculously good sides. Really looking forward to the debates and discussions here because all of @antohan @Joga Bonito and @Annahnomoss put forward great arguments and ideas every draft.

For all the struggles to keep on the links, anto put together a great side.

 

[antohan]

BTW, the Delaney quote is classic reverse-fitting to make the story. Jairzinho swapped wings throughout the World Cup, it was a given. Carlos Alberto rarely if at all ventured forward in that final, so not sure what he is talking about other than looking for a way to build in the Carlos Alberto goal. Great goal indeed, largely down to Pelé's beautifully weighted pass, and Carlos Alberto being able to go for glory because they were 3-1 up and Italy were completely spent.

Again, nothing like what is happening here. No Pelé, no altitude, no runaway scoreline...

 

[antohan]

Anyhow chaps, I really have to go to work now, my partner is skyping me asking what the feck is going on and I'd better not explain

It's clear what will hurt me here is a poor understanding/knowledge of my players, but I've done all I can to that end on the gamethread and the links to profiles above.

I can't shake the feeling Abbadie is and will be completely ignored. Tremendous player. It's not just the white hair, but Deschamps used to remind me of him in terms of his ability to control and manage the tempo of a game to suit his team's needs. Not the same position but right midfield, in a Beckham role of sorts.

I looked up his PES stats to provide some independent take on it but they are based on the winger and, I bet, mixed up a bit with the later version of him. They do indicate he had it in him to become the sort of player I've portrayed him as.

Spoiler

 

[Joga Bonito]

In any case, as I've said countless times: I also have Figueroa, Scirea and Abbadie as superb passers. My outball from deep is guaranteed, and the space between your lines is going to be exploited over and over again.

Figueroa was decent on the ball and Scirea was one of the finest liberos of all time but he was more about the build-up play, bringing the ball out of the back and aiding the midfield on the ball when needed. He most certainly was not a Hierro or a Koeman which is what your team needs. Not underrating Scirea's passing game but I can't see it being enough here imho. Your side lacks that creative influence who can consistently ping those balls to the forwards to set them off on the counter ala C.Alberto or Didi etc. Can't speak about Abbadie here as he is bit of an unknown quantity. I'm not disputing that you have a decent out-ball but it's going to take more imo, to execute your tactics to the required levels.

In the meantime, you don't have the sort of striker who could knock it down like Pelé did for him, nor would that sort of striker have much joy against Don Elías. You need someone who can destroy his CB aerially the way Boninsegna will against Mauro.

Why does it have to be knock downs/aerial domination etc for the side to thrive? Well obviously Pele's knock-downs and aerial ability added a dimension to that Brazilian side but it most certainly wasn't as integral an aspect as you are making it out to be. It was the anti-thesis of what they really were and this isn't Cruyff's direct Ajax/Holland sides that we are talking about here either.

What made Pele truly excel in that WC, was his ability to inter link his team-mates brilliantly and be the glue to that side with his intelligent and nippy play. Enzo will face a tough battle against Figueroa but he doesn't necessarily need to score a goal to have a good game here. The likes of Didi, Rivelino and Jairzinho have plenty of goal threat themselves and even then, with plenty of reliable service I wouldn't back against Enzo not ending up on the score-sheet here. Enzo's nippy link-up play and his intelligent movement, capable of exploiting the channels or dropping back when needed, would contribute to the team immensely, as much as a goal would in fact, given the potent goal threat that the team possesses.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Anyhow chaps, I really have to go to work now, my partner is skyping me asking what the feck is going on and I'd better not explain

Sure thing mate, will keep my contributions to a minimum, other than to post compilations or to answer queries every once in a while.

 

[antohan]

Figueroa was decent on the ball and Scirea was one of the finest liberos of all time but he was more about the build-up play, bringing the ball out of the back and aiding the midfield on the ball when needed. He most certainly was not a Hierro or a Koeman which is what your team needs. Not underrating Scirea's passing game but I can't see it being enough here imho. Your side lacks that creative influence who can consistently ping those balls to the forwards to set them off on the counter ala C.Alberto or Didi etc. Can't speak about Abbadie here as he is bit of an unknown quantity. I'm not disputing that you have a decent out-ball but it's going to take more imo, to execute your tactics to the required levels.

The only player in your team standing clearly ahead of mine as a passer is Didí, and he has Varela to contend with. Your frontmen will offer very little that can stop Scirea influencing the game. And I know, you are waiting for me to say he would go on a run every now and then to say that surely spells doom for me. Well, it doesn't. Facchetti is a great outball on the left but can always stay back if Scirea forages forward.

Why does it have to be knock downs/aerial domination etc for the side to thrive? Well obviously Pele's knock-downs and aerial ability added a dimension to that Brazilian side but it most certainly wasn't as integral an aspect as you are making it out to be. It was the anti-thesis of what they really were and this isn't Cruyff's direct Ajax/Holland sides that we are talking about here either.

What made Pele truly excel in that WC, was his ability to inter link his team-mates brilliantly and be the glue to that side with his intelligent and nippy play. Enzo will face a tough battle against Figueroa but he doesn't necessarily need to score a goal to have a good game here. The likes of Didi, Rivelino and Jairzinho have plenty of goal threat themselves and even then, with plenty of reliable service I wouldn't back against Enzo not ending up on the score-sheet here. Enzo's nippy link-up play and his intelligent movement, capable of exploiting the channels or dropping back when needed, would contribute to the team immensely, as much as a goal would in fact, given the potent goal threat that the team possesses.

And a big part of that was being a force to be reckoned with inside the box. That's a big part of his "glueing act", he could be the #10 or the #9 depending on what the team was needing. The high cross and knockdown in the box is a classic route: you choose where the hell in the box you want to leave that loose ball, it creates brilliant goalscoring opportunities. Just watch United and how people are saying we need Fellaini in the box and what he adds (at considerable cost elsewhere, which wasn't the case with Pelé).

You have three chaps passing the ball around and interlinking but largely unable to penetrate my organised and very well protected defensive line. Just like they couldn't penetrate that of the Netherlands, Poland, Yugoslavia and Scotland's when in their prime.