You're making something out of nothing here really. Robben isn't going to go out on the left, why would he when Giggs is there. Bergomi will keep tabs on Robben, and because he's not going to be attacking, it allows the spare man Passarella to go forward without leaving the team light at the back.
All Time Chain Draft QF3 - Cutch vs The Stain
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
- Start date
You're making something out of nothing here really. Robben isn't going to go out on the left, why would he when Giggs is there. Bergomi will keep tabs on Robben, and because he's not going to be attacking, it allows the spare man Passarella to go forward without leaving the team light at the back.
New page, time for Dennis gifs again. This is not the sort of stuff Schweinsteiger wants to be spending a lot of his game running around after.
And capable of out of the blue moments of magic to define big games:
And capable of out of the blue moments of magic to define big games:
So it's a zonal defence and not personal. That's what I wanted to hear. Still, not sure how I feel about him on the left - any stand-out games by him in LB/LCB role, maybe? I know that Gentile played there for a couple of seasons for example, but I don't recall Bergomi playing there.
Genuine questions, I want to visualize your team in order to break the tie for me.
Ditto. I know who i'd rather have as a combo. Rossi/Bergkamp(Conti/Donadoni)not exactly a prolific goalscoring duo, or RvN/Robben(Giggs/Robson), tons of goals.
He'll man mark Robben which 90% will be on the right wing. He might try to roam inside a bit if he's not getting much joy but that'll play even more into bergomi's hands as i've mentioned, and it'll be one of the more congested areas of the pitch. The fact that its on the left hand side matters little, its one of the all time great defenders being asked to man mark with little else to worry about. When Passarella breaks forward, i cant see Robben being one to track the run so again bergomi is important as a defender that won't be going forward due to his role in this game and so not leaving the side light at the back.
The difference being that my striker has an obvious link man behind him and one that should get ample space in this game infront of the back 4. Schweinsteiger is basically there for show, he won't be doing the sort of job the likes of Davids or Makelele would be doing at stopping bergkamp at doing what he does best, and will miss having a Khedira type alongside him as the double pivot. With paulo rossi in his 82 balon d'or winning form, say the type of form where he scored a hat trick against the favourites Brazil, and isolating Roland Koeman, surely that is a clear avenue at goal with the supply line of Bergkamp and Conti particularly. Certainly a clearer one than the monstrosities you are faced with in my defence to get past.
I already explained how the lack of link-man will work. I have two box-boxers. They have the energy to run up and down all day. Schweini isn't alone when defending. He has at least one of the boxers to help him at all times. They will limit the space in which Bergkamp operates. Bastian will be the holding player, as in not as attacking as the box-boxers, who dictates play in central midfield. He'll be faced with Bergkamp alone seldom, possibly when you counter but he has the positional sense and work rate to keep up with a not so quick Bergkamp.
Will have limited enough access for much of the remainder of this, though it looks like i'm fighting a losing battle. I'm not convinced at all that the opposition side has a greater all time pedigree than my team here, and i think opinions are being easily swayed by the heavy United contingent on diisplay, and many of opposition names being more current.
I have players that have been there and done that on the all time stage. Many (6 i believe) world cup winners, players to have had outstanding seasons, or peak international tournaments, and other consistent performers over many years.
I believe the system in place here will work. I think the roles of Bergomi and Vierchowod will deal with the main opposition threats while many of the rest fight toe to toe with eachother. I also think in Davids i have the most defensively sound midfield player on the pitch. I think i have explained in detail how these threats will be nullified while there must be questions asked at the other end of Basti stopping Bergkamp, and how Koeman will fair in a foot race with the razor sharp Rossi.
I have players that have been there and done that on the all time stage. Many (6 i believe) world cup winners, players to have had outstanding seasons, or peak international tournaments, and other consistent performers over many years.
I believe the system in place here will work. I think the roles of Bergomi and Vierchowod will deal with the main opposition threats while many of the rest fight toe to toe with eachother. I also think in Davids i have the most defensively sound midfield player on the pitch. I think i have explained in detail how these threats will be nullified while there must be questions asked at the other end of Basti stopping Bergkamp, and how Koeman will fair in a foot race with the razor sharp Rossi.
Fair point, actually - as it would be pretty much pointless for Robben to wander across the pitch in this particular match. If he does, it will be solely to escape his marker - and it will still be pointless.
So, yeah, fair enough - I buy Bergomi as a man marker.
I don't think the position specific criticism of Donadoni and Conti is anything either, as both were comfortable on either wing/flank.
Not sure how well Rossi and Bergkamp would work, though. Rossi isn't actually a poacher, or an ultimate finisher, or whatever he's sometimes portrayed as. He played fairly deep more often than not.
Of course, you could instruct him to stick to the box and let Bergkamp be the ONLY second striker, but in my opinion that isn't an ideal game for him. Even for Italy '82, his most iconic role, he didn't really operate as a box player in the sense you'd associate with a player who is often regarded - again - as some sort of pure finisher. His movements relative to Graziani in '82 - to use that again - were more complicated than that.
Anyway, you can clearly play Rossi and Bergkamp up front - it ain't that. But if you're selling Rossi as the sheer finisher here (which I think you are), then that is somewhat debatable.
Since Cutch won't be around much i will just post the odd gif or video. This goal by Koeman is just.. 
I personally really rate Donadoni and Conti, Conti has what it takes to work a flank alone so it makes sense playing Bergomi on the same side as him. Cafu is the perfect player for someone like Donadoni, if you want someone who is defensively rock solid as a winger then you need a great full back behind him like Zagallo-Nilton Santos. Passarella and Vierchowod are an awesome centre back pairing and I can see Passarella being very helpful to that midfield two of Davids and De Rossi.
Koeman and Stam shouldn't be tampered with even for a final. You don't improve that pairing if you want a genuine threat from the back, he has one of the best passing ranges ever in the game and the surprise and difficulty to handle that for the opponents was huge. His long balls were nearly always the risk taking one, when he hit his target it was bound to open the opponents up and create a chance. It wasn't as if he'd hit every long ball, so he'd lose plenty of possession as well but I think that is alright when you consider just how good Giggs and Robben were defensively.
No need to be scared of losing the ball when you have five midfielders who are all outstanding defensively, especially when you have two box to box midfielders in there as well which never results in boring possession play and rather more of a back and forth game.
Schweinsteiger in his peak in that deep lying role also provides something similar to Guardiola, where you have two players at the back equally good at spreading passes around even if Schweinsteiger does it in a much safer way.
Again with team Cutch it comes down to the lack of goals for me. Both teams are equally good in almost every regard except the sense that RVN, Giggs and Robben has a clear goal threat about them. I think Bergkamp and Rossi would play great together, Bergkamp with his playmaking and individual brilliance and Rossi with his ability to work hard for the team and make intelligent runs. But Donadoni was the opposite of a goalscorer and Conti wasn't a goalscorer either.
Koeman and Stam shouldn't be tampered with even for a final. You don't improve that pairing if you want a genuine threat from the back, he has one of the best passing ranges ever in the game and the surprise and difficulty to handle that for the opponents was huge. His long balls were nearly always the risk taking one, when he hit his target it was bound to open the opponents up and create a chance. It wasn't as if he'd hit every long ball, so he'd lose plenty of possession as well but I think that is alright when you consider just how good Giggs and Robben were defensively.
No need to be scared of losing the ball when you have five midfielders who are all outstanding defensively, especially when you have two box to box midfielders in there as well which never results in boring possession play and rather more of a back and forth game.
Schweinsteiger in his peak in that deep lying role also provides something similar to Guardiola, where you have two players at the back equally good at spreading passes around even if Schweinsteiger does it in a much safer way.
Again with team Cutch it comes down to the lack of goals for me. Both teams are equally good in almost every regard except the sense that RVN, Giggs and Robben has a clear goal threat about them. I think Bergkamp and Rossi would play great together, Bergkamp with his playmaking and individual brilliance and Rossi with his ability to work hard for the team and make intelligent runs. But Donadoni was the opposite of a goalscorer and Conti wasn't a goalscorer either.
The important thing for me is that Bergomi has the skillset to do the assigned job very well. He's also got some limited but very high-level pedigree in doing a similar job playing in a similar position in the 1982 World Cup Final. The other important thing is that Bergomi isn't going to offer loads on the ball wherever he's placed in that defence. He's fine on it but not a typically expansive full-back. Presumably there's no expectation that he's going to be bursting up the flank in any case. Rather that allows Passarella to push forward into the midfield.
It's no different from Chelsea moving the right-footed Bosingwa to left-back to deal with Messi. And that worked really well for Chelsea (insofar as anyone can curtail Messi). I imagine it's the same job here. Obviously if Robben goes walkabout, which he is rarely inclined to do to be honest, then another defender can pick him up (Vierchowod would probably have him for pace), and Bergomi can tuck into the central-side role he excels in.
I wish I hadn't voted now that I've seen the score. This would be a very hard fought match in reality. Its The Stain's superior goal threat that edges it for me, despite Cutch's outstanding defence. No issues here with Bergomi man-marking Robben as I think he'd be great on that assignment, although Robben at his peak will still cause problems in a great individual duel.
I don't agree with this though. His partnership with Khedira proved to me that Schweinsteiger can do a magnificent job as the deepest midfielder, as Khedira was consistently and often recklessly charging forward either to attack or try to win back possession. I don't see anything that Khedira offered Schweinsteiger as a partner that Essien and Robson won't more than equal.
I don't agree with this though. His partnership with Khedira proved to me that Schweinsteiger can do a magnificent job as the deepest midfielder, as Khedira was consistently and often recklessly charging forward either to attack or try to win back possession. I don't see anything that Khedira offered Schweinsteiger as a partner that Essien and Robson won't more than equal.
Wasn't aware I'm a part of The Stain's team @Edgar Allan Pillow
I'm not surprised Stain is winning here as he has an excellent team. But the additional margin of victory seems to be more a reflection of the vote-winning United contingent. I say that in the context of Cutch having two players who are in the top five ever in their positions in Cafu and Passarella and very much a closed shop at the back there. In fairness Stain trumps him for overall goal threat with Ruud and Robbo. But that's set against a superior defence - so the advantage is negated. They're pretty even in midfield, with both trios matching each other for quality: Davids/Robbo, Schweinsteiger/Bergkamp, Essien/De Rossi - each pair on the same sort of level. Really hard to split the teams to be honest.
Not looking too good here. Have no issues with losing this game as it is one that could have swung either way. The huge margin between the votes is a bit of a worry, not just for this game but in general. I think too many would take one look at Stam, Basti, RVN and Giggs and decide that's good enough. Very hard to convince them otherwise when you're 8-0 down after half an hour. The likes of Conti and Donadoni are too much work to try and sell and I expect Giggs and Robben are rated far higher despite being pretty much their equal.
Anyway, well done to The Stain. It is a very good side. I would have preferred it with Kaka in there (your only Balon dor winner) but I can see why he went a bit safer. A lot of popular players there who everyone knows well so it will take a great team to stop him.
Anyway, well done to The Stain. It is a very good side. I would have preferred it with Kaka in there (your only Balon dor winner) but I can see why he went a bit safer. A lot of popular players there who everyone knows well so it will take a great team to stop him.
Since Cutch won't be around much i will just post the odd gif or video. This goal by Koeman is just..
I don't think the issue is the names. Donadoni and in particular Conti are hardly hard sells - Conti is the best wide player on the pitch here. I'm just I'm not convinced by the arguments for those two and Bergomi in what aren't their prime positions.
Bergomi worked as the spare defender against an injured Rummenigge with a LWB in front of him. Here he is the sole LB with a man who also did his best work on the right in front of him. One of them on the other side I could live with, but two is pushing it.
Then you factor in that he has the extra man in midfield, plus two wingers playing in precisely their ideal positions and a world class pair of centre backs (as do you) and it's difficult not to go with The Stain here. Had you opted for an attacking left back instead of Cafu, and lined up with Bergomi at RB, the LWB, a three man midfield with one of Donadoni or Leonardo and Conti wide right, I'd be voting for you here.
Of course the Utd players will influence voters, but that doesn't take anything away from their quality. RvN was a better striker than Rossi. Conti possibly edges Giggs (you could have told me he was left-footed, that'd have shut me up
) but for me ; Robben is the best winger on the pitch. As much as i love Davids, i think Robson edges for best midfielder on the park (Berkamp is the best but he's a second striker here) and Bastian is no duckling. Stam compliments Koeman perfectly. They're all great players who just as it happens, have played for the best team in the world. These 1 v 1 discussions are inevitable but i don't like them (no slight on you, just in general).. Football is a team sport!Anyway, thanks but it's not over yet.. I didn't play Kaká out of respect for Bergkamp. He was an excellent player and i wanted to make sure my team was protected. Hope that makes sense. I promise to go more attacking in an eventual semi.
Well done @The Stain, deserved win for all round better drafting. I was screwed from pick 7 onwards and was stranded in Serie a with no way out. Your side was strong all round and you were able to add quality reinforcements aswell. I couldn't say a bad word about the likes of Essien, robben, kaka and basti as I'm a fan of all of them and rate their peaks extremely highly. Good luck in the next round
Cheers! This is what it should be like. Play the game and leave without grudges. It should have been closer than it was.
Couldn't have done it without you @VivaJanuzaj
