Despite of my hilarious meltdown in last few posts, I think subbing Baggio with Nedved was the right call. In terms of quality we don't lose anything. We replaced a legend ballon D'or winner with another one. But we gain more width through Nedved and more creativity. Without actually giving up on our attacking dominance. Kalle - Gullit - Eto'o - Nedved is a fearsome attack and is better than Giggs -Robben - Romario -Laudrup, both man for man and as a team. Both defenses and midfield are about equal and my better attack should nick an extra goal here.
All Time Chain Draft - Finals: Tuppet vs The Stain
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
- Start date
AHHHH Tuppet what have you done!!!??? That starting lineup was a beauty! Reuter, Carlos, Kalle and Baggio and you listened to people saying lack of width?
It's still not over. I love Nedved in this role and the switch of flanks looks better for Kalle but damn... Roberto
It's still not over. I love Nedved in this role and the switch of flanks looks better for Kalle but damn... Roberto
It reminds me of my own feck-up in the final, instead of fielding my best team I chickened out and went defensive. Baggio was the victim too iirc
Thanks, @Annahnomoss
Thanks, @Annahnomoss
AHHHH Tuppet what have you done!!!??? That starting lineup was a beauty! Reuter, Carlos, Kalle and Baggio and you listened to people saying lack of width?
It's still not over. I love Nedved in this role and the switch of flanks looks better for Kalle but damn... Roberto
Agreed
Guys guys guys !!! its not a feck up. Its not like I replaced Baggio with some nobody or someone defensive. Its Nedved, the Ballon D'or winning, long shot hitting, width providing son of a gun Nedved. You don't remember him do you ? here you go, refresh your memory -
Don't get all the criticism of Tuppet's sub. Think Rummenigge should have made way for Nedved and not Baggio but with the opening formation, The Stain's superiority on the flanks was bound to show. Tuppet's initial formation would probably have worked against most teams as he had a fluid front line and 2 excellent attacking wing-backs capable of providing width single-handedly.
However, his wing-backs were facing 2 great flanks here and Robben-Giggs would have surely have the edge on the counter or on their 1v1s. Granted he did have Makelele-van Hanegem who are capable of helping out defensively on the flanks, but they already have Laudrup and Robson to deal with - no easy matter. Still a shame that he took Baggio off instead of Rummenigge, but the current team looks better suited for this game with the introduction of Nedved imo.
However, his wing-backs were facing 2 great flanks here and Robben-Giggs would have surely have the edge on the counter or on their 1v1s. Granted he did have Makelele-van Hanegem who are capable of helping out defensively on the flanks, but they already have Laudrup and Robson to deal with - no easy matter. Still a shame that he took Baggio off instead of Rummenigge, but the current team looks better suited for this game with the introduction of Nedved imo.
Blame @Edgar Allan Pillow for decades rule
Oh fair enough then.
Woah that score line is not reflecting the game here. people ! stop comparing my current side to my previous side and compare it with The Stain's. We are playing almost exactly the same tactic of 4-2-3-1 here, so lets compare our squads man to man -
Romario vs Eto'o - No doubt Romario is better, but how better really. Both are main strikers of their teams, so goal count is a pretty handy way to compare.
So I did that by finding best 7 consecutive seasons of both strikers -
This actually clears the picture a bit. Romario scored bucket loads of goals, and once again I am not disputing he is the better striker, but as you can see not by much. Eto'o has scored similar tally of goals in a better standard of league, and providing more to the team then just goals as well. The 2009-10 season in Inter is the one where he was playing as a winger.
Giggs vs Nedved - Giggsy is a brilliant player, but at his peak Nedved was a better player. Nedved was a much more reliable big game player, someone who could take a team by the scruff of the neck when they needed it and\or be the main man over the course of a season. Nedved had a brilliant Euro 2004 (despite his country like giggs was not a giant) and replaced Zidane in Juventus. There is also Ballon D'or which does not say much but it still tells you when highest Giggs ever finished was number 9 in 93/94, that he is more known for his longevity rather than his peak.
Rummenigge vs Robben - I'll be the first one to say this is not a like for like comparison, Robben is more winger than Rummenigge who is more second striker, but they are occupying similar positions cutting in from right, and be the second scorer along with main striker. I don't think there is much of a contest here, as good as Robben is, Rummenigge is in a different tier. 2 times Ballon D'or winner, European cup winner, 2 times world cup runner up, world cup silver shoe winner, Kalle has accumulated accolades by bucket load befitting to a legend. I won't go in number of goals comparison as it would be disingenuous given their respective positions.
Gullit vs Laudrup - 2 legends of the game, one physical, more direct the other more elegant. I can not pick one here, both are good fit for their respective teams. While Laudrup revives his partnership with Romario, Gullit with his endless stamina and physicality helps in both my midfield and attack. He also provides a great foil for Rummenigge when he moves to center. Lets call this even.
Van Hangem - Makelele vs Robson - Schweinsteiger - Again there is not much to chose between. Robson is a United legend and Schweni is a Bayern legend (future United legend ) and I have not watched Van Hanegem too much except world cup matches and Champions league clips. So I would have to take other people's word on him. And those words describes an exceptionally good midfielder. His name is taken in the same breath as Cruyff & Neeskens, rated higher than Gullit himself as a Dutch player. Star of the first Dutch team to ever won champions league, that guy is a genuine legend. Makelele well we all know, some hate him, some not so much, but he was extremely effective and successful. I think my duo is better, in their respective jobs, but I am biased and be willing to call it a draw.
Nesta - Kohler vs Scirea - Stam - Again deadlock here. In a back 3 as a libero Scirea was exceptional, but as center back in back 2, well he is still exceptional but not have a huge margin over Nesta, who played all his life in a 2 CB partnership. Whatever advantage Scirea has over Nesta, Kohler has over stam , and we have again came to a deadlock.
Roberto Carlos - Reuter vs Ashley cole - Gerets - There is not much but I would consider my wingback pair to be better. I know Ashley cole is very good defensively but Roberto Carlos is under rate defensively IMO. Anyway my full backs have the ability to assert themselves and dominate the flank all by themselves. They have the accolades (world cup winners, champions league winners, Euro winner) to show for it and have played wingless formation for most of their career. Roberto Carlos in particular would be very decisive, esp with an aerial threat like Gullit.
So there we have it, my completely biased take on our teams. My attack is slightly better and is more multifaceted then Stain's attack. Gullit as a goal scoring force should not be underrated and with Roberto Carlos, Reuter, Van Hanegem & Nedved his and Rummenigge's great heading might very well nick a goal for me here.
Sorry for long post guys, I'll be out for hours now and the IMO score line does not reflect the game at all. Also before everyone throws - man for man comparison does not work, at my face. I don't know what else would work, since we are playing almost exactly same tactic here.
Romario vs Eto'o - No doubt Romario is better, but how better really. Both are main strikers of their teams, so goal count is a pretty handy way to compare.
So I did that by finding best 7 consecutive seasons of both strikers -
This actually clears the picture a bit. Romario scored bucket loads of goals, and once again I am not disputing he is the better striker, but as you can see not by much. Eto'o has scored similar tally of goals in a better standard of league, and providing more to the team then just goals as well. The 2009-10 season in Inter is the one where he was playing as a winger.
Giggs vs Nedved - Giggsy is a brilliant player, but at his peak Nedved was a better player. Nedved was a much more reliable big game player, someone who could take a team by the scruff of the neck when they needed it and\or be the main man over the course of a season. Nedved had a brilliant Euro 2004 (despite his country like giggs was not a giant) and replaced Zidane in Juventus. There is also Ballon D'or which does not say much but it still tells you when highest Giggs ever finished was number 9 in 93/94, that he is more known for his longevity rather than his peak.
Rummenigge vs Robben - I'll be the first one to say this is not a like for like comparison, Robben is more winger than Rummenigge who is more second striker, but they are occupying similar positions cutting in from right, and be the second scorer along with main striker. I don't think there is much of a contest here, as good as Robben is, Rummenigge is in a different tier. 2 times Ballon D'or winner, European cup winner, 2 times world cup runner up, world cup silver shoe winner, Kalle has accumulated accolades by bucket load befitting to a legend. I won't go in number of goals comparison as it would be disingenuous given their respective positions.
Gullit vs Laudrup - 2 legends of the game, one physical, more direct the other more elegant. I can not pick one here, both are good fit for their respective teams. While Laudrup revives his partnership with Romario, Gullit with his endless stamina and physicality helps in both my midfield and attack. He also provides a great foil for Rummenigge when he moves to center. Lets call this even.
Van Hangem - Makelele vs Robson - Schweinsteiger - Again there is not much to chose between. Robson is a United legend and Schweni is a Bayern legend (future United legend
) and I have not watched Van Hanegem too much except world cup matches and Champions league clips. So I would have to take other people's word on him. And those words describes an exceptionally good midfielder. His name is taken in the same breath as Cruyff & Neeskens, rated higher than Gullit himself as a Dutch player. Star of the first Dutch team to ever won champions league, that guy is a genuine legend. Makelele well we all know, some hate him, some not so much, but he was extremely effective and successful. I think my duo is better, in their respective jobs, but I am biased and be willing to call it a draw.Nesta - Kohler vs Scirea - Stam - Again deadlock here. In a back 3 as a libero Scirea was exceptional, but as center back in back 2, well he is still exceptional but not have a huge margin over Nesta, who played all his life in a 2 CB partnership. Whatever advantage Scirea has over Nesta, Kohler has over stam , and we have again came to a deadlock.
Roberto Carlos - Reuter vs Ashley cole - Gerets - There is not much but I would consider my wingback pair to be better. I know Ashley cole is very good defensively but Roberto Carlos is under rate defensively IMO. Anyway my full backs have the ability to assert themselves and dominate the flank all by themselves. They have the accolades (world cup winners, champions league winners, Euro winner) to show for it and have played wingless formation for most of their career. Roberto Carlos in particular would be very decisive, esp with an aerial threat like Gullit.
So there we have it, my completely biased take on our teams. My attack is slightly better and is more multifaceted then Stain's attack. Gullit as a goal scoring force should not be underrated and with Roberto Carlos, Reuter, Van Hanegem & Nedved his and Rummenigge's great heading might very well nick a goal for me here.
Sorry for long post guys, I'll be out for hours now and the IMO score line does not reflect the game at all. Also before everyone throws - man for man comparison does not work, at my face. I don't know what else would work, since we are playing almost exactly same tactic here.
erm, he played most of his career in a back four
Think he meant to say that the system Scirea thrived in is quite different to the way The Stain has set out here. Nothing drastic and he points it out too, but certainly something worth mentioning.
The Stain did a good job finding such a flexible squad that is packed with individual quality as well. The team is very logical, well balanced and the only player who would have a worse than average game for him is Scirea. Giggs has a great full back behind him, which is how he played his entire career more or less, Robben has Gerets himself which is also a pretty natural partnership. As Koeman described Gerets; Gerets was one of the best attacking right-backs in the history of the game, but I don’t think he ever really got the recognition that his talents deserved. Defensively he was solid, yet what truly set him apart was his relentless capacity for getting forward."
In the middle Schweinsteiger and Laudrup provides a similar partnership to his with Guardiola in terms of having a world class passer behind him, and in front of them they have the ideal player in Romario.
Robson and Schweinsteiger would also be very robust physically and defensively and they do look like a pair who could handle a 4-4-1-1 formation in the defense.
I would have liked to seen Augenthaler play as a libero to allow those wing backs to bomb forward at will while being covered to provide early crosses in to the box. There would be one hell of a battle between Stam and Gullit while Rummenigge and Baggio would be dangerous for Ashley, Scirea and Gerets. If that was the game-plan I could have seen it being very even and you wouldn't have let TS sit back and counter against uncovered wing backs.
Probably impossible due to the decade rules though.
In the middle Schweinsteiger and Laudrup provides a similar partnership to his with Guardiola in terms of having a world class passer behind him, and in front of them they have the ideal player in Romario.
Robson and Schweinsteiger would also be very robust physically and defensively and they do look like a pair who could handle a 4-4-1-1 formation in the defense.
I would have liked to seen Augenthaler play as a libero to allow those wing backs to bomb forward at will while being covered to provide early crosses in to the box. There would be one hell of a battle between Stam and Gullit while Rummenigge and Baggio would be dangerous for Ashley, Scirea and Gerets. If that was the game-plan I could have seen it being very even and you wouldn't have let TS sit back and counter against uncovered wing backs.
Probably impossible due to the decade rules though.
Couldn't really find any fault on The Stain's team, so vote for him
Should ban all Utd players in future drafts though
Should ban all Utd players in future drafts though
Yeah, kinda what @Annahnomoss said, he usually played with 2 central-ish defenders or man markers in zona mista. Any way not a big deal he is obviously awesome.
wow, game seem as good as lost now 10-17, weird considering we are playing almost similar tactic and I have equal or better players in every position except striker and with Rummenigge and Gullit even that should not be a problem really.
Wonder if I should tag all Liverpool supporters here !
Wonder if I should tag all Liverpool supporters here !
I think you would have won it, if this wasn't an United board. Am not changing my vote though
You have a great 11 but that is not a correct take on this at all.
It is not just about Romario but also Laudrup supplying to him. Many would have Laudrup over Guilt in an AM role but with Romario connection you would definitely have him there. Out on the wings I agree with you, I don't think either of Robben or Giggs are finaly worthy in an all time draft. But Robben's last season form and Giggs being a United legend has carried the day for Stain out there. Etoo is in the same tier as those two though.
In MF, Robson and Schwein are a great pair .. though Guilt probably means your pair have some extra support. But then again you won't choose Guilt over Laudrup here.
In defense, Carlos is the clear standout full back but there is nothing to choose between the other 3 with perhaps Reuter being the weakest so. Scirea is the clear stand out defender on the park followed by your pair and then Stam.
Overall, even though Stain is weak on the wings for me, Laudrup-Romario gives him a big bump consider your striker is Etoo.
Well I agree to some points and totally agree that Eto'o is in same tier as Giggs and Robben. If you think in those terms -
Tier 1 - Romario, Laudrup, Nedved, Rummenigge, Gullit
Tier 2 - Giggs, Robben, Eto'o
Also agree to the point that Laudrup - Romario makes sense, just as Gullit makes more sense for my side and I won't chose Laudrup over him in my side. Both have the correct attacking midfielder for their respective sides. Robson - Schwein is a great pair, just as Van Hanegem - Makelele is. Even without Gullit support, I don't think my pair is inferior at all. As for Carlos - Reuter & Cole - Gerets again we have the right full backs for our respective sides and there is nothing between them. Ditto for Center back pair, Scirea might be the outstanding CB here, he is not being used to his full potential of libero and Scirea - Stam is not superior to Kohler - Nesta.
I also aggree that Laudrup - Romario partnership along with United legends decided this game, cause I honestly believe that my side is at least equal if not slightly better.
I don't mind losing here btw, Stain definitely has a very good side and it was going to be tight either way. And if a proven partnership decides a game thats totally fair IMO , and its obvious that having United legends is going to help your team. Both factors are fair game. I was lucky to reach to the final anyway, 2 times the opposition manager did not show up, so I have no complaints
Congratulations and well played @The Stain , Thanks for organizing an awesome draft @Edgar Allan Pillow . I learned so much about old Penarol players by anto's write up and about various properties of Italian cheese by @diarm . Great entertainment all around.
Tell you something come one hell of a long way since the classic "newbie sheep drafts", Iain Dowie says hello! Seriously though super teams and if there is room on the next draft count me in.
Went for the Stain. I think he's got a narrow edge through that central midfield to no 9 axis: ever so slightly in terms of quality but more clearly in terms of synergy. That said, I think Tuppet has a marginally better centre-half partnership. It's very close.
Haven't touched this thread, the caf even, in fear of jinxing it. Feels very good winning, i must admit! @Tuppet /Viva, you guys have an amazing team. I'll get in to that more in my next post. Good game.
Don't know if Beckham & Ruud have featured in an all-time final so they'll come on in the last seconds.
Don't know if Beckham & Ruud have featured in an all-time final so they'll come on in the last seconds.
Great win @The Stain . See, me not voting for you may actually be your lucky charm
Hard Luck @Tuppet brilliant team and wonderful performance all through!
Hard Luck @Tuppet brilliant team and wonderful performance all through!
Great win @The Stain . See, me not voting for you may actually be your lucky charm
Thanks. I'm counting on this for the next drafts. You better vote against me!A few thoughts:
On Robben not being final worthy. I think he is, certainly in this draft where no-one has GOATs in all positions. Younger players will be under-rated but i think when Robben retires he'll be remembered as one of the best goal-scoring wingers ever.
I mean, by that logic; Preud'homme, Gerets, Giggs, Stam, Cole, Schweini & Robson aren't final worthy either. Gerets, Essien & Beckham were the only players i felt at times i needed to upgrade. For the final i had the opportunity to upgrade Gerets. For example: I could have picked Tardelli then Bergomi. I could have gone Gentile then Cabrini/Passarella/Socrates. As the better attack usually wins you the game in these drafts i couldn't pass on Romario, though.
Looking at GOATs in this game; Tuppet clearly has more. I still feel my attack was more balanced and i had a clear tactical strategy for the game. United players will always help, but i really believe that's not the full story here. That was more the case in the semi where i was lucky to win.
I think the tactical bit should be manditory for all write-ups. Write how your team will play and why this counters the opposition tactics. I only did this for the last game. However, i did adjust my formations to counter opposition tactics in all games. First 4-4-1-1, then 4-3-3 & 4-2-3-1 for the semi and final.
I was surprised Nedved didn't start. One of my favourites. Figo in the semi is another one i've grown up watching. Other than that; The axis of Makelele/Nesta/Kohler is. Amazing, especially for me who is a big advocator of the 4-3-3, i believe it to be the superior tactic. If i get to pick Passarella/Scirea/Beckenbauer/Koeman in future drafts; i'll build the defence/midfield around them, playing a 5-2-3/4-3-3 hybrid. R. Carlos, great. Van Hanegem, excellent. I just wish the attack was built around Gullit more, perhaps he's better with two midfielders behind him and two create wingers.
Perhaps subs shouldn't be allowed until half-time (12 hrs)? How many subs usually happen in the first half? Not many.
On Robben not being final worthy. I think he is, certainly in this draft where no-one has GOATs in all positions. Younger players will be under-rated but i think when Robben retires he'll be remembered as one of the best goal-scoring wingers ever.
I mean, by that logic; Preud'homme, Gerets, Giggs, Stam, Cole, Schweini & Robson aren't final worthy either. Gerets, Essien & Beckham were the only players i felt at times i needed to upgrade. For the final i had the opportunity to upgrade Gerets. For example: I could have picked Tardelli then Bergomi. I could have gone Gentile then Cabrini/Passarella/Socrates. As the better attack usually wins you the game in these drafts i couldn't pass on Romario, though.
Looking at GOATs in this game; Tuppet clearly has more. I still feel my attack was more balanced and i had a clear tactical strategy for the game. United players will always help, but i really believe that's not the full story here. That was more the case in the semi where i was lucky to win.
I think the tactical bit should be manditory for all write-ups. Write how your team will play and why this counters the opposition tactics. I only did this for the last game. However, i did adjust my formations to counter opposition tactics in all games. First 4-4-1-1, then 4-3-3 & 4-2-3-1 for the semi and final.
I was surprised Nedved didn't start. One of my favourites. Figo in the semi is another one i've grown up watching. Other than that; The axis of Makelele/Nesta/Kohler is
. Amazing, especially for me who is a big advocator of the 4-3-3, i believe it to be the superior tactic. If i get to pick Passarella/Scirea/Beckenbauer/Koeman in future drafts; i'll build the defence/midfield around them, playing a 5-2-3/4-3-3 hybrid. R. Carlos, great. Van Hanegem, excellent. I just wish the attack was built around Gullit more, perhaps he's better with two midfielders behind him and two create wingers.Perhaps subs shouldn't be allowed until half-time (12 hrs)? How many subs usually happen in the first half? Not many.
Congratulations @The Stain. Ultimately a lot of voters saw a lot dead-heats across the park and saw Romario/Eto'o as the only game-changer to hang a vote on. I wonder if there was a clever or foolish way to squeeze in Baggio, Nedved, Gullit and Rummenigge into the same team to maximise the vote-winners on the park. I'd have attempted to place Gullit as the target man and the other three supporting (Nedved-Baggio-Rummenigge). He'd certainly have the physicality and skillset to perform that role IMO. The problem really for Tuppet was the part duplication between Gullit and Rummenigge - they shone the brightest in almost the exact same positions.
Thanks! Ye, those were my exact thoughts. Gullit as a target man with Baggio behind him. Gullit was succesful in that position for both Milan and Holland. Rummenigge as a right inside wingforward and Nedved to the left who can cover for RC's runs. Just play Makelele as a central midfield destroyer next to the creative box-boxer VH. Highlight Reuters defensive capabilities. Think that might have done the trick..
Good on you, Beckham most certainly deserves it and there are better players than him but not many better RMs that I can honestly think of. Congrats on winning the draft, great team and some cracking reinforcing through the rounds.
Commiserations @Tuppet @VivaJanuzaj . Scoreline is far too harsh fwiw, but you guys assembled a great team, nonetheless.
Cheers. Hehe, i actually got one more vote after the change. Think it was @Invictus . Probably wasn't for the change but fun nonetheless.