If there's a weaker spot in Skizzo/Pat's defence, it's probably the area defended by Lawro and Dunne - the very area that Sir Tom Finney will be attacking.
All time British/Irish fantasy draft, Q-F: Skizzo vs Gio
- Thread starter crappycraperson
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Bit of a vast underrating of Lawrenson there if you think he's part of a "weak spot"
I just watched a clip of Mark Lawrenson riddled with scouse accents, FML, I'm so bored!
While we're on the topic of centre backs, one thing that's completely flown under the radar is our pairing's much greater ability in possession.Its been all the rage in recent drafts but its attracted litle comment this time. Miller wasn't notable for his ability on the ball as far as I know, and with Des Walker it's positively a weakness. The likes of Auld and Charles have the workrate and physicality to force the odd mistake out of him, and even if it doesn't lead to a goal it'll certainly limit Gio's ability to build from the back. Lawrenson had the quality to play in midfield at times for an excellent Liverpool team, and Moore's ability on the ball hardly needs to be elaborated on.
Fitting that you pop in just as I post that, given that you're normally the one with the boner for comfortable in possession CBs!
I don't think Lawro is a weak spot per se, it's more a question of him being a bit of a journeyman in this context - I say again in THIS context, he's playing next to Bobby Moore - and the same goes for Dunne. Solid if unspectacular sort of thing, meaning that you could easily replace those players with a couple of the same ilk without having to look very far.
It's not a slight on either player, it's the nature of the pool in this draft: You have a load of solid if unspectacular side backs - and a load of excellent CBs.
It's not a slight on either player, it's the nature of the pool in this draft: You have a load of solid if unspectacular side backs - and a load of excellent CBs.
It's a very good point actually. It has probably largely flown under the radar because the entire draft is jam-packed with agricultural defenders.
Damn, which part of "I've wanted to vote for Gio's front four for two games now" didn't you understand?
It's a very good point actually. It has probably largely flown under the radar because the entire draft is jam-packed with agricultural defenders.
Damn, which part of "I've wanted to vote for Gio's front four for two games now" didn't you understand?
It ain't too late to do the right thing Anto
It ain't too late to do the right thing Anto
I've thought about it, but every time I rethink it I see Finney running at Dunne-Lawrenson. If there's a mismatch anywhere on the pitch, that's probably it. Then I big up Dunne a wee bit on no grounds other than loyalty to the cause... and I see Greaves, and remember this much cherished clip which once handed me a final on a plate.
Thing with this ball-playin' CB point is that you've already got Moore there. If we're talking ability to start moves from scratch, he'll surely take care of that. So Lawro's on-the-ball skills are in the "can't hurt, but ain't really necessary" category for me.
You can argue that Gio doesn't have a typical ball player back there (Miller is average, I guess, and Walker is poor in that regard), which may or may not be relevant here - but in my opinion Lawro's status as a ball player isn't much of an argument with Moore there. It doesn't add anything crucial to the mix.
You can argue that Gio doesn't have a typical ball player back there (Miller is average, I guess, and Walker is poor in that regard), which may or may not be relevant here - but in my opinion Lawro's status as a ball player isn't much of an argument with Moore there. It doesn't add anything crucial to the mix.
Think his main point wasn't Lawro but his pair having it and Gio's not having it and potentially being forced into feck ups with Charles around. Not a bad argument really.
Another ball player isn't strictly necessary with Moore there granted, but having another player who is quality in possession is always an advantage. Its one less man who is liable to make a mistake on the ball and either give away a goalscoring opportunity or just surrender possession, and moreover it increases our chances of transitioning effectively and quickly. Just as an example, it'll be that bit quicker for Lawrenson to find Beckham with a pass from defence himself rather than squaring it to Moore first.
I wouldn't pretend that Walker is Beckenbauer on the ball. Miller is decent enough in that respect - certainly good enough in terms of the possession demands that are being placed on him. We're clearly strong and creative on the ball from fullback, with Cole a shining light in Arsenal's give-and-go and rapid transition football. Young on the other side was a regular penalty taker and was recognised for his ability to deliver early and accurate passes over long distances, either into strikers' feet or diagonals for the left winger to feed off. I can see both fullbacks' approaches working well here.
Ah. Well, that makes more sense. As I read it he was to an extent pushing Lawro as a ball player (which didn't make that much sense to me - he may have been capable of playing as a DM and so forth, but he wasn't exactly Zidane on the ball).
Aye, basically you can never have too many players who are competent on the ball. Its kind of getting lost in the mix though that he was a bloody good defender as well, and a good choice to assist Dunne vs Finney if and when Dunne gets beaten. Lawrenson has played as a full back many times, and he has bags of pace as well as being a particularly clean and effective tackler.
I'm sure I'm underrating Lawro here, but I honestly don't think he's that special in this department. Not that it matters anyway - you have Moore with a suitable partner and that makes the combo as such the better one. I maintain that you edge it in the middle, whereas he edges it on the sides.
It's a question of priorities. With John Charles knocking about, you want combative and aggressive man-markers around to negate his strengths - rather than some ball-playing waif inclined to get demolished the first time a cross comes in.
In an ideal world, great to have an all-in-one but I'm struggling to think of many if any top class stopper-cum-libero types in this pool.
In an ideal world, great to have an all-in-one but I'm struggling to think of many if any top class stopper-cum-libero types in this pool.
I'll probably won't be here until the end of the game, so I'm forced to make a decision now (and I really want to make it). Went for Skizzo as I like his spine a tad better. Very even game - and very even draft, I have to say, I'm struggling to decide in 3/4 of those games.
@harms I think if you are choosing a spine select from the players on show, it would be: Banks, Moore, Walker, Souness, Meiklejohn/Murdoch, James, Charles/Greaves. So that's 4-1 on outrights, 2 depending on fit and approach.
I'm not talking about individualities (you are slightly better here), I'm talking about how they fit together (or rather how they grew on me). It's harsh on you, though, because both teams are created beautifully and there are no obvious flaws in either side. I will try to take a final look before the end though, maybe I'll change my mind.
I must say, the fact that Skizzo/Pat were losing made my choice much easier.
True on priorities when it comes to dealing with Charles. Its worth pointing out though that he's taller than either of your centre backs, and substantially taller than Miller. They're a handy pair in the air, but Beckham crossing to Charles remains a very clear and threatening route to goal.
Cheers mate! I'm struggling to make a decision in alot of these games too. There's some very evenly matched teams out there.
In case I'm sleeping when this is reaching its conclusion, a few points I want to re-emphasise:
1) Goal threat from midfield: Neither team is lacking in this area but we shade it. Auld was a goal every three games man in his second stint at Celtic, from a position in a two man midfield no less. He has more freedom here. James' record at Arsenal is nowhere near this, whatever other qualities he might bring to the table. Beckham hit a high water mark of 1 in 3 in 2001/02, and was generally good for around 1 in 4-5 during his peak. A comparable goal threat to Morton. He's also one of the best set-piece specialists in the draft. I'm genuinely not sure if Gio has an equivalent threat from free kicks but I doubt it. Lennox was more prolific than Finney over the course of their careers and in their best seasons - an astonishing 32 goals in 28 league games for Lennox in 1967-68 vs (a still brilliant) 26 in 34 games for Finney a decade earlier. In the central mdifeld positions we've got a pronounced advantage. Meiklejohn averaged 1 in 11.66 games over his club career and Souness 1 in 7.31, versus 1 in 8.42 for Ince and 1 in 4.89 for Murdoch.
2) Stronger central defence: With two of the very best centre forwards in the draft on show, I back Moore/Lawrenson to do a better job on Greaves than Walker/Miller can on Charles.
3) Distribution from the back: In a game this tight, wasting possession and failing to transition quickly could prove costly. Moore and Lawrenson have a considerable advantage over Miller and especially Walker in this regard.
4) Workrate: Similarly, in a tight game the more players that can contribute defensively the better. Its asking alot to assume that the likes of James and Morton can match Beckham and Auld for graft.
5) Proven Partnerships: Neville and Beckham are one of the most decorated right wings in British footballing history. Lennox, Auld and Murdoch were key components in one of Britain's greatest ever club sides. Far from being lower tier, they've proven themselves on a higher stage than anyone in Gio's midfield bar Souness. Of course, Morton etc could only beat what was put in front of them, but the fact is that our Lisbon Lions have a proven track record of success at an extremely high level, and clearly elevated each other's games. They bested some of the greatest midfields of their time, including Leed's formidable early '70s unit including Giles and Bremner.
1) Goal threat from midfield: Neither team is lacking in this area but we shade it. Auld was a goal every three games man in his second stint at Celtic, from a position in a two man midfield no less. He has more freedom here. James' record at Arsenal is nowhere near this, whatever other qualities he might bring to the table. Beckham hit a high water mark of 1 in 3 in 2001/02, and was generally good for around 1 in 4-5 during his peak. A comparable goal threat to Morton. He's also one of the best set-piece specialists in the draft. I'm genuinely not sure if Gio has an equivalent threat from free kicks but I doubt it. Lennox was more prolific than Finney over the course of their careers and in their best seasons - an astonishing 32 goals in 28 league games for Lennox in 1967-68 vs (a still brilliant) 26 in 34 games for Finney a decade earlier. In the central mdifeld positions we've got a pronounced advantage. Meiklejohn averaged 1 in 11.66 games over his club career and Souness 1 in 7.31, versus 1 in 8.42 for Ince and 1 in 4.89 for Murdoch.
2) Stronger central defence: With two of the very best centre forwards in the draft on show, I back Moore/Lawrenson to do a better job on Greaves than Walker/Miller can on Charles.
3) Distribution from the back: In a game this tight, wasting possession and failing to transition quickly could prove costly. Moore and Lawrenson have a considerable advantage over Miller and especially Walker in this regard.
4) Workrate: Similarly, in a tight game the more players that can contribute defensively the better. Its asking alot to assume that the likes of James and Morton can match Beckham and Auld for graft.
5) Proven Partnerships: Neville and Beckham are one of the most decorated right wings in British footballing history. Lennox, Auld and Murdoch were key components in one of Britain's greatest ever club sides. Far from being lower tier, they've proven themselves on a higher stage than anyone in Gio's midfield bar Souness. Of course, Morton etc could only beat what was put in front of them, but the fact is that our Lisbon Lions have a proven track record of success at an extremely high level, and clearly elevated each other's games. They bested some of the greatest midfields of their time, including Leed's formidable early '70s unit including Giles and Bremner.
It's obviously harder for Finney to match Lennox's goalscoring ratio given (a) he played for Preston who weren't in the middle of winning 9 titles in a row; and (b) he's a far more creative player and set up more goals than he scored. Finney is estimated to have more than 30 assists for England.
Don't agree. Lawro's being painted as a far better player than he was. He's more famous as a pundit than a player. He's obviously been a good player for Liverpool in the 1980s, but I don't know anyone who would stick him in an all-time Ireland XI for instance. Yet Miller is an almost certainty for Scotland. And as this player pool shows, Scotland has a deeper pool of players to draw from given their competitiveness from as early as 1920 or so. So we have Moore as the standout, Walker and Miller next, and Lawro fourth. They're both complementary partnerships, but I fancy Jimmy Greaves to find the necessary half-yard that will be all that is required for him to decide the game.
A minor issue. Miller and Walker are fine for what is being asked of them. Young and Cole offer excellent transition - long or short - down the flank.
I think you have a bit more work-rate - largely at the expense of relative quality with it coming from Auld instead of James and Beckham instead of Finney.
Lisbon Lions were of course a great team, but let's put this into context. Nobody has got any Forest players in their team, even though they won 2 European Cups. Nobody is trying to recreate Aston Villa's 1982 European Cup winning team. Stobzilla has half of Leeds great midfield yet hasn't been showered with endless praise for it.
DES WALKER
WILLIE MILLER
The Observer (1993) said:
Gary Lineker said:
Peter Beardsley said:
WILLIE MILLER
Sir Alex Ferguson said:
Karl Heinz Rummenigge said:
Richard Gordon said:
The clearest quality gap between the two sides is going forward.
Alan Morton v Bobby Lennox
Across the board Morton is regarded as THE outstanding left-winger Scotland has produced. He's also regarded as Rangers' greatest ever player and one of the very best these Isles have produced. Lennox for all his goalscoring qualities will not get into any all-time Scotland XI ahead of Morton.
Graeme Souness v Paul Ince
Souness was the complete midfielder: combative, commanding and classy. His passing range, aggression and ability to score from distance was the bedrock of Liverpool's domestic and European success. He brought home 3 European Cups. Ince was a good player, solid in his era, but relatively inconsequential in an all-time draft. Little wonder he made away for Keane and Scholes (player's of Souness's ilk) to come through.
Davie Meiklejohn v Bobby Murdoch
A strong contender for the greatest ever Rangers player, Born and raised in the shadow of Ibrox, Meiklejohn was comfortable at centre-half, right back and in midfield. Regarded by the old timers as John Greig with skill. An inspirational leader who won 12 league titles with Rangers and was famous for his shackling of Dixie Dean in a 2-0 win over England in 1931.
Alex James v Bertie Auld
James was one of the finest players in the world during the 1930s whose unique passing and vision provided countless assists for Herbert Chapman's all-conquering Arsenal side.
Tom Finney v David Beckham
What's most striking about Finney is how highly he is regarded by anyone who played with or against him. He's a shoe-in for an England all-time XI and seen by many as England's greatest ever player. With Charlton on the go that's up for debate, but it's clear he's in a very top tier that Beckham certainly for all his own qualities didn't reach.
Jimmy Greaves v John Charles
Greaves was the top scorer in the English top tier a record six times and England's fourth highest international goalscorer with 44 goals in just 57 games. Tottenham Hotspur's highest ever goalscorer (268 goals), the highest goalscorer in the history of English top-flight football (357 goals), and has also scored more hat-tricks (six) for England than anyone else. Supreme finisher, likely the best the British game has ever seen, who was quick, always found space and always made the right decision. Him and Charles sit along with Law and Dean as the finest centre-forwards the English game has seen.
Alan Morton v Bobby Lennox
Across the board Morton is regarded as THE outstanding left-winger Scotland has produced. He's also regarded as Rangers' greatest ever player and one of the very best these Isles have produced. Lennox for all his goalscoring qualities will not get into any all-time Scotland XI ahead of Morton.
Graeme Souness v Paul Ince
Souness was the complete midfielder: combative, commanding and classy. His passing range, aggression and ability to score from distance was the bedrock of Liverpool's domestic and European success. He brought home 3 European Cups. Ince was a good player, solid in his era, but relatively inconsequential in an all-time draft. Little wonder he made away for Keane and Scholes (player's of Souness's ilk) to come through.
Jamie Carragher said:
Davie Meiklejohn v Bobby Murdoch
A strong contender for the greatest ever Rangers player, Born and raised in the shadow of Ibrox, Meiklejohn was comfortable at centre-half, right back and in midfield. Regarded by the old timers as John Greig with skill. An inspirational leader who won 12 league titles with Rangers and was famous for his shackling of Dixie Dean in a 2-0 win over England in 1931.
Willie Thornton said:
However I do rate Murdoch highly and think this battle would be a draw. Both players would likely start in a Scottish second string all-time XI.John Rafferty in One Hundred Years of Scottish Football said:
Alex James v Bertie Auld
James was one of the finest players in the world during the 1930s whose unique passing and vision provided countless assists for Herbert Chapman's all-conquering Arsenal side.
Whether he's seen as Arsenal's greatest ever player or not, it's pretty clear he's a class or two above Auld.Vital Arsenal said:
Tom Finney v David Beckham
What's most striking about Finney is how highly he is regarded by anyone who played with or against him. He's a shoe-in for an England all-time XI and seen by many as England's greatest ever player. With Charlton on the go that's up for debate, but it's clear he's in a very top tier that Beckham certainly for all his own qualities didn't reach.
Jimmy Greaves v John Charles
Greaves was the top scorer in the English top tier a record six times and England's fourth highest international goalscorer with 44 goals in just 57 games. Tottenham Hotspur's highest ever goalscorer (268 goals), the highest goalscorer in the history of English top-flight football (357 goals), and has also scored more hat-tricks (six) for England than anyone else. Supreme finisher, likely the best the British game has ever seen, who was quick, always found space and always made the right decision. Him and Charles sit along with Law and Dean as the finest centre-forwards the English game has seen.
You put it very nicely yourself regarding the ebb in quality in European football around the time that Forest and Villa won it. The same accusation can't really be levelled about the era that Celtic triumphed in. That said, the likes of John Robertson of Forest can consider himself unlucky not to get picked here. Stobz gets a great deal of credit from me for his midfield.
Ah it's Bello di Notte all over again - go to bed in front, wake up behind.
Really surprised at the result I have to say. Not that both teams aren't similarly set-up, with similarly strong players in key positions. But it seems pretty apparent and, I've not heard anything to the contrary from anyone who's voted against me, that we've got a man-for-man quality advantage. With the added benefit of operating in a tactically sound set-up - there's not a single player who doesn't fit like a glove into their role, there's no square pegs in round holes here.
Really surprised at the result I have to say. Not that both teams aren't similarly set-up, with similarly strong players in key positions. But it seems pretty apparent and, I've not heard anything to the contrary from anyone who's voted against me, that we've got a man-for-man quality advantage. With the added benefit of operating in a tactically sound set-up - there's not a single player who doesn't fit like a glove into their role, there's no square pegs in round holes here.
Operating in front of Souness and Meiklejohn, Alex James is in the perfect position to showcase his almost unrivalled playmaking talents. The kind of talents that brought in this kind of praise:
Eddie Hapgood later described the role that Alex James played in the 2-0 victory. "Alex was fouled somewhere near the penalty area, and, almost before the ball had stopped rolling, had taken the free-kick. He sent a short pass to Cliff Bastin, moved into position to take a perfect return, and banged the ball into the Huddersfield net for the all-important first goal. Tom Crew told me that James made a silent appeal for permission to take the kick, and he waved him on. It was one of the smartest moves ever made in a big match and it gave us the Cup. I contend that it was fair tactics; for if Alex had waited a few seconds for the whistle, the Huddersfield defence would have been in position, and the advantage of the free-kick would have been lost." Jack Lambert got the second goal late in the second half, also from a move started by Alex James.
The Arsenal managing director at the time, George Allison said of Alex James: "No one like him ever kicked a ball. He had a most uncanny and wonderful control, but because this was allied to a split-second thinking apparatus, he simply left the opposition looking on his departing figure with amazement.".
As the authors of The Official Illustrated History of Arsenal have pointed out: "In 1932-33 Bastin and Hulme scored 53 goals between them, perfect evidence that Arsenal did play the game very differently from their contemporaries, who tended to continue to rely on the wingers making goals for the centre-forward, rather than scoring themselves. By playing the wingers this way, Chapman was able to have one more man in midfield, and thus control the supply of the ball, primarily through Alex James."
Jeff Harris argues in his book, Arsenal Who's Who: "The reason that Bastin was so deadly was that unlike any other winger, he stood at least ten yards in from the touch line so that his alert football brain could thrive on the brilliance of James threading through defence splitting passes with his lethal finishing completing the job."
Matt Busby was playing for Manchester City at the time. He later recalled: "Alex James was the great creator from the middle. From an Arsenal rearguard action the ball would, seemingly inevitably, reach Alex. He would feint and leave two or three opponents sprawling or plodding in his wake before he released the ball, unerringly, to either the flying Joe Hulme, who would not even have to pause in his flight, or the absolutely devastating Cliff Bastin, who would take a couple of strides and whip the ball into the net. The number of goals created from rearguard beginnings by Alex James were the most significant factor in Arsenal's greatness."
Tommy Lawton argued that James " was often described as being slow, but I have seen the little Scot move at breakneck speed. His greatest weapon was his ability to feint, either with his foot or with his head. I have seen him stand still, swaying like a snake under the influence of the charmer, and scatter experienced defenders this way and that."
Stanley Matthews was another player who appreciated James' talents: "Alex supplied the ammunition for his fellow Gunners and was widely regarded as the most astute football tactician of his time. It is no exaggeration to say that Arsenal manager Herbert Chapman built his team around him. The Arsenal of the day were a team of rare talent and Alex James was its mastermind, though you would never suspect it on seeing him.... There were many who believed his carefree appearance was natural, others thought it all part of a pose, but it was in sharp contrast to one of the tidiest and sharpest football brains there has ever been. He hated wasted effort. To him it was a mark of poor technique and indicative of a poor footballing brain. For all he could be intolerant of those who did not match up to his classical artistry, he was the arch entertainer - a diminutive Scottish comic who held his audience and opponents spellbound until he delivered his killer punchline.
Alex James beats three Manchester City players with a body swerve
According to Frederick Wall, the president of the Football Association, Alex James was the best player he saw in 50 years of watching football: "Alex James never suppresses himself. He may conceal his intention, he may lead a man away on the wrong trail, he may hold the ball and invite a tackle, he may fool an opponent who becomes ruffled, and he may do the most unexpected thing in a flash, but he does not seem to care what may happen to himself... Alex James is the greatest of all the outstanding players of his period, and, in my judgment, he would have been just as masterful, whimsical, and self-possessed in any period when football has been an organized, collective and disciplined game."
Eddie Hapgood later described the role that Alex James played in the 2-0 victory. "Alex was fouled somewhere near the penalty area, and, almost before the ball had stopped rolling, had taken the free-kick. He sent a short pass to Cliff Bastin, moved into position to take a perfect return, and banged the ball into the Huddersfield net for the all-important first goal. Tom Crew told me that James made a silent appeal for permission to take the kick, and he waved him on. It was one of the smartest moves ever made in a big match and it gave us the Cup. I contend that it was fair tactics; for if Alex had waited a few seconds for the whistle, the Huddersfield defence would have been in position, and the advantage of the free-kick would have been lost." Jack Lambert got the second goal late in the second half, also from a move started by Alex James.
The Arsenal managing director at the time, George Allison said of Alex James: "No one like him ever kicked a ball. He had a most uncanny and wonderful control, but because this was allied to a split-second thinking apparatus, he simply left the opposition looking on his departing figure with amazement.".
As the authors of The Official Illustrated History of Arsenal have pointed out: "In 1932-33 Bastin and Hulme scored 53 goals between them, perfect evidence that Arsenal did play the game very differently from their contemporaries, who tended to continue to rely on the wingers making goals for the centre-forward, rather than scoring themselves. By playing the wingers this way, Chapman was able to have one more man in midfield, and thus control the supply of the ball, primarily through Alex James."
Jeff Harris argues in his book, Arsenal Who's Who: "The reason that Bastin was so deadly was that unlike any other winger, he stood at least ten yards in from the touch line so that his alert football brain could thrive on the brilliance of James threading through defence splitting passes with his lethal finishing completing the job."
Matt Busby was playing for Manchester City at the time. He later recalled: "Alex James was the great creator from the middle. From an Arsenal rearguard action the ball would, seemingly inevitably, reach Alex. He would feint and leave two or three opponents sprawling or plodding in his wake before he released the ball, unerringly, to either the flying Joe Hulme, who would not even have to pause in his flight, or the absolutely devastating Cliff Bastin, who would take a couple of strides and whip the ball into the net. The number of goals created from rearguard beginnings by Alex James were the most significant factor in Arsenal's greatness."
Tommy Lawton argued that James " was often described as being slow, but I have seen the little Scot move at breakneck speed. His greatest weapon was his ability to feint, either with his foot or with his head. I have seen him stand still, swaying like a snake under the influence of the charmer, and scatter experienced defenders this way and that."
Stanley Matthews was another player who appreciated James' talents: "Alex supplied the ammunition for his fellow Gunners and was widely regarded as the most astute football tactician of his time. It is no exaggeration to say that Arsenal manager Herbert Chapman built his team around him. The Arsenal of the day were a team of rare talent and Alex James was its mastermind, though you would never suspect it on seeing him.... There were many who believed his carefree appearance was natural, others thought it all part of a pose, but it was in sharp contrast to one of the tidiest and sharpest football brains there has ever been. He hated wasted effort. To him it was a mark of poor technique and indicative of a poor footballing brain. For all he could be intolerant of those who did not match up to his classical artistry, he was the arch entertainer - a diminutive Scottish comic who held his audience and opponents spellbound until he delivered his killer punchline.
Alex James beats three Manchester City players with a body swerve
According to Frederick Wall, the president of the Football Association, Alex James was the best player he saw in 50 years of watching football: "Alex James never suppresses himself. He may conceal his intention, he may lead a man away on the wrong trail, he may hold the ball and invite a tackle, he may fool an opponent who becomes ruffled, and he may do the most unexpected thing in a flash, but he does not seem to care what may happen to himself... Alex James is the greatest of all the outstanding players of his period, and, in my judgment, he would have been just as masterful, whimsical, and self-possessed in any period when football has been an organized, collective and disciplined game."
Exactly my rationale for voting for Skizzo/Pat and they were 2-0 down as well. Shame there is no draw option as this match looks like a deadlock if there ever was one.
This man for man quality advantage is far from obvious. Take the Morton vs Lennox example. The consensus choice as Rangers' best ever left winger vs the consensus choice as Celtic's best ever left winger. Lennox has the overwhelming superiority in productivity, there's ample footage of him to base an opinion on, and he's been highly succesful outside of British domestic football. Given a straight choice I'd choose Lennox over Morton, and there's plenty of evidence to back that up.
Similarly, Auld is a shoo in alongside Murdoch and Lennox in virtually every all-time Celtic XI I've found, yet he's portrayed as second rate yet Mieklejohn is lionized for being a Rangers great? That doesn't stack up for me.
Similarly, Auld is a shoo in alongside Murdoch and Lennox in virtually every all-time Celtic XI I've found, yet he's portrayed as second rate yet Mieklejohn is lionized for being a Rangers great? That doesn't stack up for me.
Morton was the best British left winger until Best came along and since then has only been challenged by Giggs. The testimonies smd eulogies are compelling. I might not have the YouTube compilations to back that up, but it defeats the purpose of an all time draft if that becomes a prerequisite for proving a player's worth.
Its up to everyone to weight achievements across different eras as they see fit. Personally I'm sceptical about the superlatives lavished on British players in the era before they ever really measured themselves on a wider stage. The very mixed results they had when they eventually did from the 1950s onwards suggests to me that the standard wasn't quite as great back then as has been suggested.
Skizzo/Pat advance
Great game @Gio . My nerves are in tatters now,and I freely admit my bowels churned every time Souness was brought up.
Good work @Pat_Mustard and @Skizzo , I was very seriously considering switching my vote, even woke up early to check the status, but the way things were shaping up it would have been a devastating 6-pointer blow for @Gio
Congrats to Must n' Skizz!
I'd just like to point out that I didn't vote here out of, call it what ye will, principle - if I go through (which I doubt, but you never know) it's perfectly clear to me which players I need/want and as such equally clear who I'd rather see knocked out.
So, I abstained for that reason. That said, like I said to begin with - I don't know who I would've gone for anyway. A draw to me, I guess - two brilliant sides.
I'd just like to point out that I didn't vote here out of, call it what ye will, principle - if I go through (which I doubt, but you never know) it's perfectly clear to me which players I need/want and as such equally clear who I'd rather see knocked out.
So, I abstained for that reason. That said, like I said to begin with - I don't know who I would've gone for anyway. A draw to me, I guess - two brilliant sides.
Well done boys. You did very well putting forward your case there.
I was hoping for the penalties at least here! ffs
He played as a deep-lying centre-forward from 1956, so it's irrelevant here
Not that I'm downplaying him, absolutely outstanding player (and better than Lennox), just not the focal point of the attack.