All time British/Irish fantasy draft, Q-F: Skizzo vs Gio

[crappycraperson]

........................Team Skizzo/Pat..................................................................Team Gio..........................................

Skizzo/Pat's tactics

We’ve drafted exclusively from players who peaked in the post-1955 period following the advent of the UEFA club competitions. As a result we’ve assembled a squad with cast-iron credentials and pedigree at an international level. Of our starting XI, we boast no less than 7 European Cup/CL winners. 11 of our squad have won a European club trophy, and of the others, John Charles is a multiple-time Scudetto winner and Bobby Moore a World Cup-winning captain. We retain our lopsided 4-2-3-1, with the great Bertie Auld coming into our starting XI in place of Lampard. Auld provides a comparable goal threat to Lampard but additionally he was a fantastic playmaker, a tricky dribbler and a tenacious competitor in midfield, as well as being proven at the highest level of club football alongside Murdoch and Lennox. Bobby Lennox retains the exceptional pace to stretch Chester’s defence. Lennox will be slightly more advanced, ready to feed off Charles’ knockdowns and stretching Chester’s defence. Beckham will do as Beckham did, dropping deeper or infield to make Utd’s 4-4-2 work against elite opposition, and finding Charles with arguably the most consistent source of quality crosses in history.

Defence:

We field one of the all-time great British goalkeepers in Neville Southall. In front of him, Moore and Lawrenson form arguably the best centre-back pairing in the draft. Similar in dynamic to the great Hansen/Lawrenson partnership, Moore commands the defence with his peerless reading of the game, impeccable timing in the tackle and great distribution. Lawrenson complements him with his superb recovery pace and strength in the air. Flanking them are two of Utd’s greatest ever full backs.

Midfield:

The lynchpin of our midfield is “the beating heart of the Lisbon Lions” Bobby Murdoch, one of the very best midfielders in the draft. A combative ball-winner, a wonderful passer and a true leader, he is partnered in central midfield by the fiercely competitive Paul Ince. On the flanks, one of the most unerringly brilliant crossers of the ball ever in David Beckham, and the scintillatingly fast Bobby Lennox, who was putting up almost Ronaldo-esque goalscoring numbers from the wing nearly 40 years before we’d ever heard of Ronaldo. Rounding out the midfield is Murdoch's partner from the Lisbon Lions, Bertie Auld. Auld was tenacious and talented, combining great vision and touch with speed and aggression

Attack:

The legendary John Charles is arguably the best centre forward in the draft, with a brilliant goalscoring record, near-unstoppable ability in the air, and the rare distinction of being well-rounded enough to be world-class both as an attacker and a defender.

How The Game Will Be Won:
We have amazing passers littered throughout our team, and also an aggressive streak that can match our opposition. Gio has Souness, Mieklejohn, and also James to drop back into help in midfield, but they will have a tough time against Murdoch, Auld, and Ince. I believe we will have the edge in possession, because Beckham will also drop back to help in the midfield, and won't have a need to beat his man for him to be effective. His positioning will give us the numerical advantage in the midfield, enabling us to hold the ball and possess and probe for openings. Lennox gives us a dangerous outball on the wing, and Charles gives us a pivot point up front to play off. Having multiple routes to goal in term of a direct threat from Lennox, or a cross played in to Charles, the long shots or Murdoch and Auld, and set pieces of Becks...it's hard to shut down those threats effectively all game. While our opponent will also argue the same, I feel with Moore and Lawrenson marshalling the back, we are much better equipped to handle his threats, than his defence is equipped to handle ours.

Lisbon Lions and partnerships:
Auld and Murdoch formed probably the greatest center midfield partnership of their time, and played most other teams of that time off the park. With their teammate Lennox on the left wing, they have the familiarity of playing with each other, and an understanding that can be the difference in a close game such as this.

Neville and Beckham also have the understanding of playing together after spending years marauding and running the right wing for United. They have the benefit of knowing when each will be making runs, and when to overlap if the opportunity arises. They also offer cover for each other and can both put in a defensive shift when necessary.

Now I know that just because players played together, it doesn't mean they should win, but here we have players who can be considered among the best at their positions on an individual basis, but now we are also able to add the benefit of playing them in tandem with their teammates who they dominated domestically and in Europe with.

Gio's tactics -

TEAM
Every player in the team was either best-in-the-world-in-their-position calibre or were strong performers when their national teams were the best in the world (see England in the 1960s and 1990, Scotland in the late-1920s and 1930s). In Banks, Cole, Souness, Finney and Greaves, we have five who would be fair shouts for an all-time Britain and Ireland select. That's almost half of the starting XI. The defence combines sheer pace in Walker and Cole with Scottish steel in Miller and Young. At set-pieces the man-mountain George Young will be instructed to man-mark Charles who, in general play, will be tightly shepherded by Willie Miller. Ferguson rated Miller as the best in the world in a busy penalty box, the very area where Charles will pose his greatest threat. Cole meanwhile will press onto Beckham, safe in the knowledge that he has him for pace, while getting tight enough to cut off crossing opportunities. Graeme Souness should run the midfield with support from the all-round leader Meiklejohn who was famed for his ability on and off the ball. Together they will do the dirty work and cancel out any threat from Murdoch and Auld. They will support an exceptionally talented front four. Alex James, the passing master, will link midfield and attack, feeding the elusive trio up top. Morton is the wing wizard on the left, one of the very best these Isles have produced. On the right but with freedom to roam is the great Tom Finney who will surely get the better of many, if not all, the full-backs in the draft. The predator up front is Greaves, the foremost goalscorer in the draft, who will thrive on the service provided by Finney, Morton and the assist king James.

THE WAY IT WILL GO
Two similar systems means there will be a number of critical head-to-head battles that will decide the match. Souness should be able to run the midfield allowing enough of a platform for Alex James to get on the ball and feed Morton, Finney and Greaves. Moore is obviously top class but there are potential mismatches right across the remainder of the defence with Lawro, Dunne and Neville getting pulled in all sorts of directions trying to keep tabs on that mobile, inventive and incisive front three.

 

[crappycraperson]

@Skizzo
@Pat_Mustard
@Gio

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Souness is a terrific midfielder that we'd love to have on our side, there's no denying that, but I don't accept that he'll "run the midfield" at all. He's up against Auld and Murdoch who won the European Cup with Celtic as a two man midfield, with Ince in support. Auld and Murdoch also came out on top against the great Leeds midfield of Giles and Bremner a few years later. They aren't getting rolled over by anyone.

Auld was as tenacious as they come, and could play deeper or advanced. There are very few midfielders in the draft (Giles springs to mind as one) that can provide this level of match-winning creativity along with defensive resilience. Beckham's workrate and ability to provide an extra man in midfield is obvious. Its a huge stretch to assume that James and Morton can match that level of graft.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Souness is a terrific midfielder that we'd love to have on our side, there's no denying that, but I don't accept that he'll "run the midfield" at all. He's up against Auld and Murdoch who won the European Cup with Celtic as a two man midfield, with Ince in support. Auld and Murdoch also came out on top against the great Leeds midfield of Giles and Bremner a few years later. They aren't getting rolled over by anyone.

Auld was as tenacious as they come, and could play deeper or advanced. There are very few midfielders in the draft (Giles springs to mind as one) that can provide this level of match-winning creativity along with defensive resilience. Beckham's workrate and ability to provide an extra man in midfield is obvious. Its a huge stretch to assume that James and Morton can match that level of graft.

True - but then I don't think Gio assumes this either. In terms of graft you have the edge - clearly. I would say he has the edge in terms of wingplay, though. Finney and Morton will cause more trouble for Nev and Dunne than you are able to conjure up for Cole and Young (who are, on top of that, the stronger pair to begin with).

Having said that, I think this is bloody tight. I don't know who I'd back to win this one.

 

[Gio]

Souness is clearly the main man in the midfield battle. I can see Meiklejohn largely negating Murdoch's playmaking and Auld not really getting a lot of change out of that area where Meiklejohn and Souness are operating. He was a fine player and support act for Celtic was Bertie, but ultimately he only has 3 caps for Scotland so, hard-working or not, he's not necessarily oozing enough quality to make the difference. So that leaves James against Ince and, again, their relative standings in their era would suggest James would get the better of that battle largely through his extra quality on the ball.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Souness is clearly the main man in the midfield battle. I can see Meiklejohn largely negating Murdoch's playmaking and Auld not really getting a lot of change out of that area where Meiklejohn and Souness are operating. He was a fine player and support act for Celtic was Bertie, but ultimately he only has 3 caps for Scotland so, hard-working or not, he's not necessarily oozing enough quality to make the difference. So that leaves James against Ince and, again, their relative standings in their era would suggest James would get the better of that battle largely through his extra quality on the ball.

I put zero stock in that to be honest. I know you're a Rangers fan so I'm sorry if this comes across as confrontational, but that Celtic team (and previous ones) appear to have been exceptionally hard done by in terms of international recognition.

It is fair to say that over the generations the relationship between the Celtic support and the Scotland team has at times been as prickly as a thistle...There is no doubt that the seven caps won by the legendary James McGrory were insultingly scant reward for such a phenomenal forward. While the great Hughie Gallacher would provide tough competition in the early years of McGrory’s career the Celtic man was for many seasons unquestionably the outstanding Scottish centre-forward.

McGrory was the supreme goal scoring talent of the age. His ability to put the ball in the net was unrivalled. He was a world class talent and a model professional. Yet the man whose late winner against England in 1933 gave birth to the famed ‘Hampden Roar’ was frequently overlooked in favour of men who were simply not in his class. The ever humble McGrory was too modest to ever question the motives of selectors but he would not have been surprised when other Celts suffered similar injustice at the hands of Scotland selectors and managers.

Parkhead and Scotland skipper Bobby Evans enjoyed a lengthy career and although his total of 48 caps appear to be a significant amount the reality is that it could have been double that amount. But perhaps the starkest evidence of this inexplicable reluctance to select Celtic players can be found in the cases of Billy McNeill, Jimmy Johnstone and Bobby Lennox.

All three men represented their country on many occasions but like McGrory these caps are a woefully insignificant representation of their outstanding qualities. Particularly so when you compare them to the international honours received by players significantly less gifted.

A strong and imperious centre-half McNeill was a natural leader who had magnificently marshalled the Celtic defence against the very best in Europe. Johnstone was a unique talent, a tiny terror who struck fear into any defence and was without any doubt among the most gifted players in the game. Lennox was blessed with devastating pace, great touch and an eye for goal. Equally effective out wide or through the middle he would have walked into any squad in the world.

McNeill spent his entire career lifting silverware and his influence was omnipresent as Celtic dominated Scottish football and climbed the heights of the European game. In terms of ability, leadership and ability Ron McKinnon, McNeill’s Rangers counterpart during this period, was over-shadowed in every department by Cesar. Yet during this period of direct competition McNeill won 13 Scotland caps to McKinnon’s 28. It really should be a case for the X-Files. Johnstone and Lennox could tell similar stories.

Indeed while Celtic’s all conquering Lisbon Lions side won a combined total won 114 caps the Rangers side that lost the ECWC final the same season would win 155 caps.

http://www.thecelticwiki.com/page/National+Prejudice

Not a neutral source of course, but there's enough evidence there to suggest that the Scottish national team selection hasn't always been entirely logical. The McGrory fact in particular raises serious question marks about your argument concerning Auld.

 

[Gio]

I put zero stock in that to be honest. I know you're a Rangers fan so I'm sorry if this comes across as confrontational, but that Celtic team (and previous ones) appear to have been exceptionally hardly done by in terms of international recognition.



The McGrory fact in particular raises serious question marks about whether caps gained for Scotland counts for very much at all.

Different era before the war when there were fewer games so everybody was scraping about with fewer caps. You've also got to weigh in the fact that out of Scotland's top half-dozen goalscorers, probably 4 of them played between 1920 and 1940. McGrory was competing with Bob McPhail (230 goals for Rangers and he combined well with Gallacher and Morton), Jimmy Smith (225 goals in 234 games for Rangers) who only got 2 caps for Scotland, Hughie Gallacher, Hughie Ferguson (284 goals in 288 games for Motherwell no less) who got no caps at all! Fair to say McGrory was unlucky to not get a few more, but there was a hell of a lot of competition in perhaps Scotland's strongest ever generation.

 

[antohan]

Souness is a terrific midfielder that we'd love to have on our side, there's no denying that, but I don't accept that he'll "run the midfield" at all.

I don't think he will boss/dominate your midfield, but TBH I've wanted to vote Gio's front four since his first game and never could because I simply didn't know enough about his CM pair and whether they could "run the midfield" in a way that got the best out of them. Now I can see it, what a difference one player makes.

 

[Gio]

http://www.thecelticwiki.com/page/National Prejudice

Not a neutral source of course, but there's enough evidence there to suggest that the Scottish national team selection hasn't always been entirely logical. The McGrory fact in particular raises serious question marks about your argument concerning Auld.

The problem with that kind of source is the clear bias means it's barely admissible at all. I'm not buying that Celtic were hard done by: it's just green-tinted glasses offering one perspective.

 

[antohan]

Uh, sour grapes! Awesome. I particularly like the X-files reference

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Different era before the war when there were fewer games so everybody was scraping about with fewer caps. You've also got to weigh in the fact that out of Scotland's top half-dozen goalscorers, probably 4 of them played between 1920 and 1940. McGrory was competing with Bob McPhail (230 goals for Rangers and he combined well with Gallacher and Morton), Jimmy Smith (225 goals in 234 games for Rangers) who only got 2 caps for Scotland, Hughie Gallacher, Hughie Ferguson (284 goals in 288 games for Motherwell no less) who got no caps at all! Fair to say McGrory was unlucky to not get a few more, but there was a hell of a lot of competition in perhaps Scotland's strongest ever generation.

Fair enough points, but leaving aside the political connotations of the Celtic players' case, I'd also point out that Alan Hansen won only 26 Scotland caps compared to your man Willie Miller's 65, and I can say with near-certainty that most would rate Hansen as the better player. Ultimately, I just dispute that Auld's lack of Scotland caps is any barometer of his ability whatsoever. Others can judge for themselves, but for my money he was clearly man of the match in the biggest game of his career:



That to me, along with other stellar performances at European level, qualifies him as more proven at a higher level than a large chunk of your midfield.

 

[Gio]

Fair enough points, but leaving aside the political connotations of the Celtic players' case, I'd also point out that Alan Hansen won only 26 Scotland caps compared to your man Willie Miller's 65, and I can say with near-certainty that most would rate Hansen as the better player. Ultimately, I just dispute that Auld's lack of Scotland caps is any barometer of his ability whatsoever. Others can judge for themselves, but for my money he was clearly man of the match in the biggest game of his career:

That to me, along with other stellar performances at European level, qualifies him as more proven at a higher level than a large chunk of your midfield.

The Hansen example is one I've used in the past and it's exactly why we need to look at the specific reasons why a certain player didn't get their haul of international caps. Hansen simply didn't perform to the same level for Scotland as he did for Liverpool, even though he's one of the top 5 central defenders in the draft. It's also testament to Miller that he managed to rack up so many caps despite such elevated competition.

Obviously Souness is proven domestically, in Europe and internationally. Auld and Murdoch were proven domestically and in Europe and less so or not at all internationally. Meiklejohn and James were proven domestically and internationally. A Scotland v England match in the 1930s was a hell of a high standard compared to the vast majority of club games, and both players excelled in that pressure-cooker-150,000-crowd environment.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

I wanted to post this article anyway, but as far as sports writers go Hugh McIlvanney is as respected as they come, and I've helpfully bolded the part about Scotland caps and merit

Driving heart of the Lions -
Football
Sunday Times, The (London, England)
May 20, 2001
Author: Hugh McIlvanney
Bobby Murdoch was as unassuming off the pitch as he was influential on it in Celtic's greatest victory.
Those of us with fresh memories of Bobby Murdoch's career feel a duty to celebrate his greatness as a football player. Sport rarely gives posterity much of a basis for sound judgments. An artist or a bricklayer leaves lasting, assessable evidence of his abilities but expressing high talent through the playing of games can be like trying to carve a mark on running water.

That is particularly true of football, where even the most ordinary match amounts to a complex ebb and flow of influences, and a permanent record of a performer's effectiveness is obviously far more elusive than it is, say, amid the teeming statistics of track and field or cricket or golf. Clearly, technical advances in camerawork make the growing film archive increasingly helpful in preserving a sense of how special footballers of earlier eras were. Diego Maradona's surge through the England defence for the goal of goals at the 1986 World Cup finals is nearly as breathtaking for a television audience now as it was for all of us who were in the Aztec Stadium on the day -nearly but not quite.

The game is live theatre and, grateful though we are for television's admirable substitute, much is lost when we have to settle for images on a screen. To be fully savoured, football's supreme moments must be first-hand experiences, and its greatest players can be truly understood and appreciated only as flesh-and-blood presences. They are best appreciated, of course, by the men who were closest to them while they were operating at the height of their powers, by their fellow players and the managers who sent them on to the field.

To gauge Bobby Murdoch's status in the crowded ranks of the outstanding midfielders Scotland has produced in the century and more since football became professional, don't look at the insulting total of 12 caps gained. Listen, instead, to the voices of those who were his comrades, and his opponents, in his prime. Jock Stein's opinion of him would be enough on its own to remove any doubt about his right to be considered genuinely great. Whenever the Big Man, as inspired a manager as ever worked in the game, talked to me about Celtic's historic success in the European Cup of 1967, he was eager to acknowledge that Murdoch was the most comprehensively gifted player in the lavishly talented team assembled from Glasgow and its environs (Bobby Lennox came from Saltcoats, 30 miles away on the Ayrshire coast, which hardly rendered the overall proximity of origins less miraculous).

Stein did not dispense such distinctions lightly and the tribute retained all of its significance after his death in 1985 at the age of 62, six years older than Murdoch was when he succumbed last Tuesday to the effects of a massive stroke. There was an impressive range of qualities to justify the praise. Most of the strengths had been sufficiently discernible at Our Lady's High School in Motherwell (also responsible for nurturing Billy McNeill, the inspirational captain of the European Cup-winners who went into legend as the Lisbon Lions) to persuade Celtic to sign Murdoch almost as soon as he turned 15. He confirmed his promise with a scoring debut in the first team six days short of his 18th birthday in August 1962, but it was when Stein launched his unparalleled reign as manager in March 1965 that the young prospect raised in Rutherglen, a few miles from Parkhead, began to accelerate towards the standards which contributed so much to the glories of 1967 and beyond.

Crucial to that swift development was Stein's characteristically astute decision to alter Murdoch's function, switching him, in the terminology of the day, from inside-right to right-half. Having withdrawn Bertie Auld from outside-left to a deeper role in midfield, the manager was doubly guaranteeing himself verve, combativeness and rich creativity in the vital central areas of the pitch. There was balance, too, with Auld's inventive and precise application of a marvellous left foot frequently prompting Celtic's most dazzling attackers, Jimmy Johnstone and Lennox, to torture the opposition. But Murdoch was the driving heart of a magnificent team.

Everybody around him recognised that reality, and thrived on it. The warmth and profound modesty of his nature made it easy for his teammates to accept him wholeheartedly as first among equals, the best footballer in their midst. Jim Craig, right-back of the Lions, spoke for all of them when he said last week: "When Bobby Murdoch played the whole Celtic team played."

Murdoch had all the equipment needed to exert such an influence. Broad and powerful in build, he was unfazed by any physical confrontation. Whether relying on jarringly effective tackles or deft dispossessing techniques based on his alert, intelligent reading of the play, he was a prodigious winner of the ball. But it was his use of it that set him apart. Assured control, superb passing and fierce shooting were attributes he had in abundance. He was wonderfully two-footed, and what he did with either weapon had the stamp of class. That versatility was a godsend throughout a career complicated by the chronic problems inflicted on his right ankle by a serious injury suffered in his teens. The depth of his unostentatious courage is demonstrated by the story of how he made his heroic contribution against Internazionale of Milan in Lisbon while nursing the ravaged ankle and depending almost entirely on his left foot -and even more by the fact that he didn't bother to mention his adversity in public until years later, and then only in casual conversation.

Of all the formidable components of his game, however, the most telling, and certainly the one Stein cherished above all others, was his capacity to deliver the ball over long or short distances, with speed and accuracy and unfailing economy, into the places where it could do maximum damage to the opposition. It is hard to think of a midfielder who identified the points of vulnerability more perceptively or exploited them more ruthlessly than he did. In football terms, he was the delivery-man from heaven.

His haul of trophies -with Celtic he figured in the winning of eight Scottish League championships, four Scottish Cups, five League cups and the European Cup, and in his twilight phase at Middlesbrough he helped the Teesside club to the English Second Division title -is all the more extraordinary when we remember that, in addition to his injuries, he was constantly plagued by weight troubles associated with a slow metabolic rate. It was a dire affliction for a professional sportsman but, like everything connected with Stein's Celtic, it could be material for banter. "We send Murdoch down to the health farm at Tring to lose some weight," the manager once said to me, "and the main result is that we are polluted with bad tips from the wee jockeys he meets there."

As Bobby Murdoch was buried on Friday, the grieving of the wife, children and grand-children with whom he was so lovingly close was respectfully echoed by the mourning of a football club who still like to think of themselves as an extended family. Celtic never lost a more distinguished son.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

The Hansen example is one I've used in the past and it's exactly why we need to look at the specific reasons why a certain player didn't get their haul of international caps. Hansen simply didn't perform to the same level for Scotland as he did for Liverpool, even though he's one of the top 5 central defenders in the draft. It's also testament to Miller that he managed to rack up so many caps despite such elevated competition.

Obviously Souness is proven domestically, in Europe and internationally. Auld and Murdoch were proven domestically and in Europe and less so or not at all internationally. Meiklejohn and James were proven domestically and internationally. A Scotland v England match in the 1930s was a hell of a high standard compared to the vast majority of club games, and both players excelled in that pressure-cooker-150,000-crowd environment.

I don't dispute Souness' credentials at all of course.

The Hansen vs Miller point just demonstrates that the argument about Auld's lack of Scotland caps is shallow. I don't dispute that a pre WW2 Scotland vs England match was high pressure, but it doesn't illustrate a player's credentials in a truly international context. Lennox, Murdoch and Auld proved it against a great Inter Milan team (and subsequently against an excellent Leeds United as well). They could have zero international caps between them and their quality is still emphatically proven.

A MOTM performance vs Inter Milan in a European Cup final counts for a hell of alot in evaluating a player's ability imo.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Auld-Murdoch-Ince vs Meiklejohn-Souness-James .

Auld was a terrific player and an under appreciated one. The Murdoch-Auld duo dominated some of the best midfields in Europe during their era. His display in the European Cup Final in 67 against Herrera's Inter, probably the most expensively assembled team at that time, was a delight to watch. He simply bossed that game. That duo is aided by Ince and is one of the best midfields in this draft. They are up against an equally brilliant engine room and I can't see too much separating both midfields.

Like Chester aptly said, there is more graft in Skizzo/Pat's side and more outright flair in Gio's side. Not that both sides are lacking in either department.

Will Moore and Lawrenson be able to handle Greaves when he has the ball? Not knocking down Moore at all but never really rated Lawrenson.

Would the 'man mountain' Young be able to keep tabs on the rapid and deadly Lennox? Tbf I don't know too much about Young and will appreciate a bit more info on him.

 

[Gio]

I don't dispute Souness' credentials at all of course.

The Hansen vs Miller point just demonstrates that the argument about Auld's lack of Scotland caps is shallow. I don't dispute that a pre WW2 Scotland vs England match was high pressure, but it doesn't illustrate a player's credentials in a truly international context. Lennox, Murdoch and Auld proved it against a great Inter Milan team (and subsequently against an excellent Leeds United as well). They could have zero international caps between them and their quality is still emphatically proven.

A MOTM performance vs Inter Milan in a European Cup final counts for a hell of alot in evaluating a player's ability imo.

Hansen's relative lack of international caps is easily justified. In the rarefied context of an all-time draft you have to ask the question as to why Auld never secured more than 3 international caps? The way I see it he got briefly into the Scotland team when he was a young winger, lost his place and never regained it when he was converted into a central midfielder. That's probably because there was a lot of competition in the 1960s with Baxter, Greig, Mackay and Murdoch vying for central midfield spots and that Auld was a tier below those types of players. No criticism because they were superb players obviously.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

True - but then I don't think Gio assumes this either. In terms of graft you have the edge - clearly. I would say he has the edge in terms of wingplay, though. Finney and Morton will cause more trouble for Nev and Dunne than you are able to conjure up for Cole and Young (who are, on top of that, the stronger pair to begin with).

Having said that, I think this is bloody tight. I don't know who I'd back to win this one.

In terms of dribbling, I'd certainly agree. I can't see Cole stopping Beckham fulfilling his duty though, which is simply to curl those brilliant crosses onto the inviting target of Charles' head. Lennox will get joy with his brilliant movement and goalscoring ability as well. I don't see our full backs completely shutting out Gio's wingers or vice versa, but I do think we've got the better pair of centre backs.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

In terms of dribbling, I'd certainly agree. I can't see Cole stopping Beckham fulfilling his duty though, which is simply to curl those brilliant crosses onto the inviting target of Charles' head. Lennox will get joy with his brilliant movement and goalscoring ability as well. I don't see our full backs completely shutting out Gio's wingers or vice versa, but I do think we've got the better pair of centre backs.

Yes, I'd agree with that (I don't rate Lawro all that highly but your combination is stronger than his, it would be unreasonable to claim otherwise). Then again, I do think his fullbacks are a notch above yours.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Hansen's relative lack of international caps is easily justified. In the rarefied context of an all-time draft you have to ask the question as to why Auld never secured more than 3 international caps? The way I see it he got briefly into the Scotland team when he was a young winger, lost his place and never regained it when he was converted into a central midfielder. That's probably because there was a lot of competition in the 1960s with Baxter, Greig, Mackay and Murdoch vying for central midfield spots and that Auld was a tier below those types of players. No criticism because they were superb players obviously.

Honestly, and Joga has touched on this, I doubt anyone could watch that Celtic vs Inter match and still believe that Auld is a tier below any of those you mentioned. He was brilliant. I don't think there's a quality differential between our midfields at all, but you'll struggle to cope with our superior work rate.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Yes, I'd agree with that (I don't rate Lawro all that highly but your combination is stronger than his, it would be unreasonable to claim otherwise). Then again, I do think his fullbacks are a notch above yours.

Slightly surprised at that. Cole is the pick of the bunch, but I'd argue that Dunne and Neville are more proven than Young. Ultimately, there's not much between them all.

 

[Gio]

Would the 'man mountain' Young be able to keep tabs on the rapid and deadly Lennox? Tbf I don't know too much about Young and will appreciate a bit more info on him.

Sure, no problem. Young stood 6'2 and weighed in at 15 stone of bristing Scottish muscle. A natural leader who captained Scotland 48 times in his 53 national appearances, impressing directly against the likes of Tom Finney and Duncan Edwards. Young was also the captain of Rangers and its famous Iron Curtain defence that was widely regarded as the best in Britain during the post-war period.

On this occasion, Young emerged victorious by delivering a faultless performance. The Scots had devised a gameplan which saw them cut out any attempted passes to Edwards, and if any did get through Young was able to put them under pressure. Unable to get on the ball, Edwards started to drift around the pitch in a futile attempt to shed his marker but to no avail; Young had won this battle. The Glasgow Herald said of their contest, "The young centre-forward had an extremely poor night against George Young. Indeed, when the game was only 10 minutes old, he seemed to realise that he had scant chance of doing anything in the centre of the field. From then on, he roved both right and left wings, leaving Young in complete control of the defence."

 

[Gio]

Given the goal threat that Lennox possesses, it's no coincidence Des Walker sits on the right-hand side of the central defensive duo to cover and offer further protection. Walker's sheer pace and immaculate tackling should shut off any threat there. As for the battle between Young and Lennox, for me they are both second-tier Scottish all-time greats for their positions. Lennox is a tier below Morton/Baxter, Young a tier below McGrain/Jardine. Again that's no criticism but a reflection of an even battle.

 

[Gio]

In terms of dribbling, I'd certainly agree. I can't see Cole stopping Beckham fulfilling his duty though, which is simply to curl those brilliant crosses onto the inviting target of Charles' head. Lennox will get joy with his brilliant movement and goalscoring ability as well. I don't see our full backs completely shutting out Gio's wingers or vice versa, but I do think we've got the better pair of centre backs.

Well obviously Moore is the standout. Lawro's the weakest of the four IMO, Walker and Miller have stronger credentials. But I'm not going to over-egg that one, Moore's a class act.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Given the goal threat that Lennox possesses, it's no coincidence Des Walker sits on the right-hand side of the central defensive duo to cover and offer further protection. Walker's sheer pace and immaculate tackling should shut off any threat there. As for the battle between Young and Lennox, for me they are both second-tier Scottish all-time greats for their positions. Lennox is a tier below Morton/Baxter, Young a tier below McGrain/Jardine. Again that's no criticism but a reflection of an even battle.

Walker's pace is a great asset against Lennox no doubt, but 'shutting off any threat' is a huge leap. Lennox was an incredible goal threat, more prolific than Finney, and he'll thrive playing off a centre forward of Charles' calibre. His movement was exceptional, and he'll be popping up all over the final third, not just on Young and Walker's side. A look at this video will illustrate the quality and dviersity of his movement.



Auld is well capable of interchanging with him and providing width and creativity on the left wing (he was a left winger in the earlier stages of his career) while Lennox goes foraging infield, and Dune is a very quick and resilient if somewhat unadventurous full back to hold the fort behind them.

The proven partnership of Lennox, Auld and Murdoch can hardly be understated also. One of the most successful in British footballing history.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Cheers for that info on Young. No slight praise there.

Its just so bloody hard to determine who will win this one. Two terrific midfields with nothing much between them. Gio has the slight edge creatively in midfield with James but Skizzo/Pat have the better industry in combination with probably the better goalscoring potential there.

Out wide Gio's attackers, supplied by James, are more tricky and more direct whilst Skiz/Pat are well balanced with Beckham playing his playmaking right midfield role and Lennox being the pacy inside forward feeding off Charles in tandem with Auld, whose pace and dribbling prowess is not one to be overlooked. In fact Auld is the best dribbler, second most paciest after Lennox, second most technical after Beckham and the most industrious player in his side imo.

Ultimately there just isn't much between both teams overall and in individual battles all over the pitch in general. Guess this one will hinge on who presents a better case for their team.

 

[antohan]

with probably the better goalscoring potential there.

Do you say that based on defences or the strikers? Probably a combination... it just struck because I don't see Greaves as a lesser striker than Charles, not at alll, particularly as a lone frontman leading the line.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Do you say that based on defences or the strikers? Probably a combination... it just struck because I don't see Greaves as a lesser striker than Charles, not at alll, particularly as a lone frontman leading the line.

Oh I referred to the goalscoring threat of their respective midfields.

Not much between both their strikers individually. Greaves is suited to playing alongside two creative, tricky and pacey wingers whilst Charles will thrive with glorious service from Beckham-Auld and with the pacey Auld-Lennox duo linking with him and feeding off him. You could exchange both strikers and they'd be less effective in the other system. Their roles are absolutely bang on in their respective teams.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Oh I referred to the goalscoring threat of their respective midfields.

Not much between both their strikers individually. Greaves is suited to playing alongside two creative, tricky and pacey wingers whilst Charles will thrive with glorious service from Beckham-Auld and with the pacey Auld-Lennox duo linking with him and feeding off him. You could exchange both strikers and they'd be less effective in the other system. Their roles are absolutely bang on in their respective teams.

I agree with it. Two very well set up teams in that regard.

 

[antohan]

Oh I referred to the goalscoring threat of their respective midfields.

Not much between both their strikers individually. Greaves is suited to playing alongside two creative, tricky and pacey wingers whilst Charles will thrive with glorious service from Beckham-Auld and with the pacey Auld-Lennox duo linking with him and feeding off him. You could exchange both strikers and they'd be less effective in the other system. Their roles are absolutely bang on in their respective teams.

Well, yeah, Greaves wasn't exactly a colossus to find at the end of Beckham's crosses

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Auld is well capable of interchanging with him and providing width and creativity on the left wing (he was a left winger in the earlier stages of his career)

Interesting. Why have you gone for this strategy?

I admit I don't know much, but I see Auld/Murdoch best partnership was middle 2 in a 4-2-4 formation. If not a straight fit, Shouldn't Auld be operating as AM/SS so that Charles doesn't get too isolated? It's not a criticism, as I don't know enough about him either way.

 

[antohan]

Two votes? Seriously?

 

[Joga Bonito]

Voted for Skizzo and Pat for now. Not averse to changing it depending on the discussions.

 

[Skizzo]

Interesting. Why have you gone for this strategy?

I admit I don't know much, but I see Auld/Murdoch best partnership was middle 2 in a 4-2-4 formation. If not a straight fit, Shouldn't Auld be operating as AM/SS so that Charles doesn't get too isolated? It's not a criticism, as I don't know enough about him either way.

Primarily he will be operating in the role you described...pat was pointing out the flexibility with the set up. Lennox running through the middle and Auld operating out wide to pull defenders and give them different things to think about. Rather than sitting back in front of Auld...suddenly Lennox is running directly at them, and Auld can operate as a wide playmaker

 

[Gio]

Fundamentally I think there is a quality difference in our midfield and attacks. Finney and Morton are a class above Beckham and Lennox respectively. Their relative statuses within their countries shows that fairly clearly IMO. In the middle Souness is superior to Ince, Murdoch and Meiklejohn are probably about the same (and that's me being generous given Meiklejohn's status as one of, if not the, greatest Ranger), while James is a cut above Auld. Greaves and Charles are both top banana and suit their respective teams very well.

 

[Skizzo]

Fundamentally I think there is a quality difference in our midfield and attacks. Finney and Morton are a class above Beckham and Lennox respectively. Their relative statuses within their countries shows that fairly clearly IMO. In the middle Souness is superior to Ince, Murdoch and Meiklejohn are probably about the same (and that's me being generous given Meiklejohn's status as one of, if not the, greatest Ranger), while James is a cut above Auld. Greaves and Charles are both top banana and suit their respective teams very well.

Don't want to turn this into a 2v1 affair, so I apologize if it feels like I'm doing that, just wanted to address the above comment by EAP, and touch on yours while I'm here and pat is gone (probably tipping a few back jk)

As individuals, I wouldn't disagree on your player x vs player y analysis, although we didn't really want to venture into buying superstars to plug in to a system. We primarily focused on getting players who had excelled at the highest level individually, and more importantly, as a team/unit. Beckham by himself in this set up is already dangerous, and we aren't using him in the same vein as you are using your wingers. Beckham is being used in the exact role he did so well in for so many years. He's never going to try and beat a full back with skills or dribbling, but ask him to put in a hard working shift on the flank, and pick out runs on the far side of the field by Lennox, or pick out Charles in the box with a pin point cross, he's the first choice for that. Plus we have him paired up with Neville, and now we have a pair that understand each others game inside and out, work together, and have done it at the highest level for club and country.

Same goes for Auld, Lennox, and Murdoch. Could we have picked out 3 individuals who are better skilled or higher rated? Sure, but as a unit, they led Celtic to probably one of the greatest feats of a British side. As individuals they are great players, but put them in a unit where they understand each others game and style, and suddenly they are so much better.

Usually in these drafts there's so much "well in this system I would have X and Y doing this" and you have to suspend a certain level of belief to imagine two players, sometimes from different eras, working in tandem. Here we have players who not only excelled on various levels (domestically, europe, internationally) but did so together.

So the tl:dr version...we have players proven to work together, and did so successfully at the highest levels... not a group of individuals that are put into a system that we're telling you would work

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Interesting. Why have you gone for this strategy?

I admit I don't know much, but I see Auld/Murdoch best partnership was middle 2 in a 4-2-4 formation. If not a straight fit, Shouldn't Auld be operating as AM/SS so that Charles doesn't get too isolated? It's not a criticism, as I don't know enough about him either way.

Auld's primary position for us is indeed as an AM as he was excellent at supporting the front men and was a quality finisher. Here's Lennox providing an assist for him, with both in their starting positions (from 1:54):



Auld peeling out wide occasionay when Lennox drifted infield is just reflective of their skill sets and the way that Celtic team played. I said it in your match thread that Gemmill was one of the most adventurous full backs of that era that I noticed. Similarly, Johnstone and Lennox were fequently switching wings, and Lennox especially popped up in the middle to score very often, with Auld often providing width, kind of like the way Di Maria peels out wide from his midfield position. He certainly had the ball-carrying to do so effectively (from 13:05):



We did debate starting with Auld and Murdoch in a midfield two, but decided to go for the solidity of the extra man in Ince in recognition of Gio's strength as a team, and to solidify our advantage in workrate.

 

[Gio]

Picking up on that point, it's probably why there hasn't been many votes that it's because teams are well crafted and complementary across the board. What I'd add is that we're full to the brim with players that balance and complement one another. Cole and Young as full-backs offer different strengths and, if Cole pushes up with the play, Young can tuck in as a right-sided centre-half. Miller and Walker blend aggressive defending with smooth, pacy and unfussy covering: it's a proper partnership. In midfield we have 4 Scots out of 5 with a good balance in the central three. Souness and Meiklejohn are proper all-rounders as is what you'd want from a central midfield partnership that is expected to be defensively solid while effectively supporting the attack. Alex James is a conventional and classic playmaker who gelled brilliantly with Alan Morton and will offer similarly penetrating service to Tom Finney and Jimmy Greaves. There's plenty of synergy in that attack.

Don't want to turn this into a 2v1 affair, so I apologize if it feels like I'm doing that, just wanted to address the above comment by EAP, and touch on yours while I'm here and pat is gone (probably tipping a few back jk)

No doubt he'll rock onto the Caf at 3am and, worse for wear, tear my team to shreds.

 

[antohan]

Picking up on that point, it's probably why there hasn't been many votes that it's because teams are well crafted and complementary across the board.

Very true, I'm enjoying the Celtic stuff from Pat/Skizzo, it looks much better than the games against Racing which were just unrestrained carnage.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I thought I'm going to vote for Gio, then relooked at the tactics/formation and decided it'll be for Skizzo.

Now totally confused.

Back later!

 

[Gio]

Honestly, and Joga has touched on this, I doubt anyone could watch that Celtic vs Inter match and still believe that Auld is a tier below any of those you mentioned. He was brilliant. I don't think there's a quality differential between our midfields at all, but you'll struggle to cope with our superior work rate.

There's no way I'm buying he's on the level of Baxter, Mackay, Greig and Murdoch. Not with 3 caps. Not that he's a shit-muncher by any manner of means, he played in a competitive era and did well for Celtic. But we've got to be realistic about his level in amongst this sort of rarefied company.