ALL issues relating to the bond issue and club finances

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That's shit. Why can't you take the night off?

Because someone needs to manage the hotel, and as the manager. THat responsibility is down to me.

Anyway, with your in depth analysis of the game, the atmosphere and the mood of the supporters, that you will pick up whilst you are there, I shall enjoy reading about your experience of Old Trafford.
 
I think it's 100% of the equity. Look at JPM's capital structure table from the 2006 IM:

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This isn't independent research like the 2010 note, this is JPM acting as RF's bankers. They value the equity at £433.5m, so £131m of PIKs which could rise to over £500m if not repaid in 2017 should on those numbers be secured on 100%.

I'd add that I've never been disabused of the idea it's 100% by anyone I know inside the club or who work or worked for the club's adivsers....

That estimate of implied common equity in that table is surely just a balancing figure though- 15*EBITDA-less debt. The piks might grow to 500+m by 2017 but a measure of common equity based on EV-debt would also rise.
Wouldn't it be more reasonable, back in 2006, to compare a projected PIK balance against a projected commom equity value and then decide on potential conversion terms? If the Glazers accepted a 100% conversion to equity, they were either very desperate or very sure that it would never happen.
 
I don't think i'm going on Monday anymore tbh; my brother's booked the night off so he's going now instead. I'll just be watching it on Sky.
 
I don't think i'm going on Monday anymore tbh; my brother's booked the night off so he's going now instead. I'll just be watching it on Sky.

Well you can post your donation to the Glazers direct to them in Tampa..

WOuldnt want them thinking you were depriving them of their revenue.

:D
 
I think it's 100% of the equity. Look at JPM's capital structure table from the 2006 IM:

This isn't independent research like the 2010 note, this is JPM acting as RF's bankers. They value the equity at £433.5m, so £131m of PIKs which could rise to over £500m if not repaid in 2017 should on those numbers be secured on 100%.

I'd add that I've never been disabused of the idea it's 100% by anyone I know inside the club or who work or worked for the club's adivsers....

Well the table doesn't really give us any further insight into the terms of the PIK - at the end of the day we dont really know and are all guessing.
However, as peterstorey has mentioned, we know the original PIK converted at around 30% so I dont see why they would agree a deal at 100% one year later - just doesn't make any sense to me.
 
Well the table doesn't really give us any further insight into the terms of the PIK - at the end of the day we dont really know and are all guessing.
However, as peterstorey has mentioned, we know the original PIK converted at around 30% so I dont see why they would agree a deal at 100% one year later - just doesn't make any sense to me.

That's what I would have thought, too. If they were refinanced, then surely they were refinanced on better terms? What's the point otherwise? Unlike the Bond vs Bank Debt, there doesn't seem to be any "hidden" advantages with these PIKs.
 
Well the table doesn't really give us any further insight into the terms of the PIK - at the end of the day we dont really know and are all guessing.
However, as peterstorey has mentioned, we know the original PIK converted at around 30% so I dont see why they would agree a deal at 100% one year later - just doesn't make any sense to me.

Why? The old piks were much nastier than the current ones.

The preferred securities (essentially piks) of 275m were incredibly punitive carrying an unpaid interest bill of 50m per year and rising. They grew to 333m by 30 June 2006, less than 14 months after they were issued. This suggests that they carried an agg. interest rate of 18% plus per annum. I believe that 210m of the old piks accrued interest at 20% pa compound while the remainder accrued interest at 14.7% pa. Left unchecked, the total redemption cost in August 2010 would have been about 650m with interest for the year exceeding 100m (just for the piks alone).

The purpose of the 2006 refinancing (as with the 2010 version) was to deal with the nasty piks. In fact, pundits were surprised that the refinancing took so long even though early redemption of the piks carried a hefty penalty.

This from the JPM investment report IN 2006:
Red has decided to refinance the existing facilities, in order to refinance the existing Preferred Securities.

In effect, the outcome of the refinancing was to replace the older, more expensive pik of c. 340m on RJV's books with a more benign pik (14.25% interest) of 131m. RF saw its borrowings rocket from 271m to 514m as a consequence. This was a sweet deal for the Glazers: the new pik was much smaller in principal- they shifted a large chunk of debt on to the club; the interest wasn't as punitive; and in addition they had till 2017 to avoid any pik\equity conversion problems.
Under the terms of the older pik, the Glazers had until 12 August 2010 to redeem all of the preferred securities otherwise the hedge funds could enforce their charge over 30% of RJV. The hedge funds could appoint 30% of the directors on the board of all group companies. In essence, directors appointed by the hedge funds could have influenced (vetoed) business decisions relating to ticketing, transfers, sponsorships, management contracts, etc.
I also believe that the terms of the old piks carried directorial rights for the holders of the preferred securities in the event that certain EBITDA targets weren't reached within the first 2 years. The holders of the pik could appoint 25% of the directors to RJV, Red, and MU. Again, the pik holders could exert material influence on key business decisions.
For the second year, the consolidated EBITDA target was 85% of 89.1m (according to a report prepared by Shareholders United in June 2005 after gaining access to the pik documents held by Red's legal team). When the refinancing took place in August 2006, the estimated EBITDA for 2007 was 74m (just shy of the 85% target). Perhaps the Glazers were prepared to provide generous conversion terms for the new pik (way out in 2017) if it meant avoiding the old pik holders gaining material control over plans for the club as early as 2007.
In any event, the current pik holders will never see equity in the club. The Glazer's advisors have engineered the new refinancing to avoid that scenario. If things go according to their 'upside scenario' between now and 2017, the piks could be eliminated by 2015 (assuming maximum dividends are taken together with the 6m management fee). The piks are also eliminated in their base scenario even though they forecast no annual dividend in 2011 (though this forecast reveals a likely tradeoff- with squad investment suffering if the Glazers take maximum dividends). The key to the elimination is the exceptional dividend of 75m otherwise known as the 'ring-fenced' Ronaldo money. Without it, the Glazers would be hard-pressed to completely remove the pik by 2017 even on their optimistic basis.
 
That's what I would have thought, too. If they were refinanced, then surely they were refinanced on better terms? What's the point otherwise? Unlike the Bond vs Bank Debt, there doesn't seem to be any "hidden" advantages with these PIKs.

It all, I suppose, depends on what you deem to be better terms.

Is a lower interest rate, payable over a longer period a better term ? In the short term, yes, over a long term no.
 
You're the only person who's taken me up on that. ;)

Why do you think they haven't taken the £95m yet?

Found other cash? Fear of upsetting the fans? Don't care about the extra PIK cost incurred since February? Someting else?

It's all speculation isn't it. If we knew more about the T&C of the PIK loan then we'd have a much better idea.

Why do you think they haven't?

I've never said that I don't see the one-off dividend(s) being taken but seeing as I was in a no lose situation I fancied a punt on the timing of it being taken.

What I definitely don't see happening is the Glazers taking out the maximum annual dividend that they're entitled to for the next seven years (provided that certain operating performance targets are acheived). I'm sure you don't believe that will happen either but you've been all too happy to let people think that will be the case with some of your now infamous spreadsheets and tables.

I do have a question about the PIK loan convenant which led to the interest rate rising to 16.25%. Is it your understanding that the rate will revert back to 14.25% in Feb 2011 provided that RFJV Limited's Net Debt/EBITDA came in at under 6.0x on June 30 2010?
 
Why? The old piks were much nastier than the current ones.

Well exactly - that's why I assumed the new deal must have been better than the original.

The old PIK was effectively a short term bridging loan - they obviously took whatever they could get at the time just to get the takeover done and then planned to refinance.

I guess a possibility is that they agreed to a higher debt/equity swap to get better terms (lower rate for longer time) in the knowledge that it would never reach the stage that they couldnt pay it off anyway.
 
Well exactly - that's why I assumed the new deal must have been better than the original.

The old PIK was effectively a short term bridging loan - they obviously took whatever they could get at the time just to get the takeover done and then planned to refinance.

I guess a possibility is that they agreed to a higher debt/equity swap to get better terms (lower rate for longer time) in the knowledge that it would never reach the stage that they couldnt pay it off anyway.

Well pardon me all over the place. I was responding to this:

'However, as peterstorey has mentioned, we know the original PIK converted at around 30% so I dont see why they would agree a deal at 100% one year later - just doesn't make any sense to me.'

I mistakenly assumed some confusion on your part, but obviously I was wrong.
 
Well pardon me all over the place. I was responding to this:

'However, as peterstorey has mentioned, we know the original PIK converted at around 30% so I dont see why they would agree a deal at 100% one year later - just doesn't make any sense to me.'

I mistakenly assumed some confusion on your part, but obviously I was wrong.

Still a tosser, I see Redjazz. :rolleyes:
 
Still the charming and erudite sophisticate, MancRed. Of course, I was being sincere. Your stint on the mains has interfered with your perspective is all.

No, I always thought you were a tosser, as you well know!

"Well pardon me all over the place"... wtf? :confused:

You still don't post enough for me to gauge exactly where you stand on the whole issue. You're clearly one of the doom-mongerers because everything you say has a hint of doom about it but you're not in bed with MUST. You do have very good financial knowledge but will it always be along the Andersred "worst case scenario, with no alternative viewpoint possible" line?

Hmm...
 
What evidence do you have to state that the Glazers' businesses will decline and go into foreclosure? The United States has now come out of recession and growth has returned so you would fully expect their businesses to recover rather than continue to struggle. I note we haven't had an update from Andersred on First Allied Corporation's financials for a while. Does anyone care to take a guess as to why that might be?

Sorry GCHQ. Here you are:

the andersred blog: First Allied Corporation watch no. 2: more defaults as predicted

5 centres gone delinquent since May... Two this month.
 
Yes, very clever Anders. I like how you've included the month of May in both of your articles about First Allied's financials. I wonder why that might be. Now, please tell us what has happened to occupancy rates over the two months since your last article.

Rather to my shame I only noticed one of the May defaults originally! Occupancy went down over each of the three months. I got bored with the spreadsheet last month to be honest plus I was away quite a bit... The aggregate occupancy numbers are pretty meaningless of course. It's whether the ones on the edge can trade out of trouble or fall further in that counts, although in the case of some they can't pay even fully let at current rents.
 
Anyone following the US news and the disasterous fall in home sales - this is very worrisome for the state of the US confidence as a sign of weak confidence in the jobs market.
 
Rather to my shame I only noticed one of the May defaults originally! Occupancy went down over each of the three months. I got bored with the spreadsheet last month to be honest plus I was away quite a bit... The aggregate occupancy numbers are pretty meaningless of course. It's whether the ones on the edge can trade out of trouble or fall further in that counts, although in the case of some they can't pay even fully let at current rents.

Funny isn't it. A month (July) goes by without any further defaults and all of a sudden you get bored of your spreadsheets. You've certainly been making up for lost time over the last few weeks! It's pretty obvious that you incuded the May-June figures again, as well as the May defaults, in order to ''sex up'' your latest article. You talk about three additional months of data passing by since your original BBC Panorama article yet conveniently forget to mention that your ''First Allied Corporation watch no 1'' piece included the June filings as well as the May defaults.

As for the occupancy numbers, you state that there was a slight increase in vacancy rates over the last three months from 10.5% to 11.1%. Can you please provide the figures for the monthly change in vacancy rates over those last three months (based on overall square footage of course)?
 
Funny isn't it. A month (July) goes by without any further defaults and all of a sudden you get bored of your spreadsheets. You've certainly been making up for lost time over the last few weeks! It's pretty obvious that you incuded the May-June figures again, as well as the May defaults, in order to ''sex up'' your latest article. You talk about three additional months of data passing by since your original BBC Panorama article yet conveniently forget to mention that your ''First Allied Corporation watch no 1'' piece included the June filings as well as the May defaults.

As for the occupancy numbers, you state that there was a slight increase in vacancy rates over the last three months from 10.5% to 11.1%. Can you please provide the figures for the monthly change in vacancy rates over those last three months (based on overall square footage of course)?

Figures regarding the club have been well established and do we need anymore. The picture is clear to any one who can see that the club has suffered and will continue to as long as the Glazers suck the life blood from it
 
Rather to my shame I only noticed one of the May defaults originally! Occupancy went down over each of the three months. I got bored with the spreadsheet last month to be honest plus I was away quite a bit... The aggregate occupancy numbers are pretty meaningless of course. It's whether the ones on the edge can trade out of trouble or fall further in that counts, although in the case of some they can't pay even fully let at current rents.

Dunno if this has been mentioned before ? but looks like your'e in the Guardian

Glazers fail to pay mortgage on four shopping malls | Football | The Guardian
 
Interesting. GCHQ has gone from a stance of the Glazers' other holdings being irrelevant to United to asking about square footage occupancy trends.

TMRD is accusing someone else of being a tosser.

ciderman still trying to be funny but ending up more David Vine than Tim Vine as per usual these days

Credit to Rood for keeping things civil and on track and accepting that there are relevant new points being made by redjazz, anders et all
 
As for the occupancy numbers, you state that there was a slight increase in vacancy rates over the last three months from 10.5% to 11.1%. Can you please provide the figures for the monthly change in vacancy rates over those last three months (based on overall square footage of course)?

Why do I indulge you GCHQ? Must have a soft spot for you!

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Look at the bottom line GCHQ. Vacancies rising each month like I said. But as I also said it's the moves in individual centres that determines their fate. So the Orchid Centre (vacant space down 10%) is looking better, but Dayton Mall Shops (vacant space up 15%) is in trouble.
 
Yeah, and the situation is only going to get worse over here. Home purchases plummeted 27% from last month. Corporations are holding onto their cash, not hiring. ARM loans are coming due, just as the subprimes did 3 years ago. We're looking at a double dip recession and a long, long haul to pull out.

More mall bankruptcies sure to follow.
 
Look at the bottom line GCHQ. Vacancies rising each month like I said. But as I also said it's the moves in individual centres that determines their fate. So the Orchid Centre (vacant space down 10%) is looking better, but Dayton Mall Shops (vacant space up 15%) is in trouble.

And the three months before that please. Actually how far do you go back? Post it all up if you would be so kind. It's great to have these figures out in the open because it will allow us to check for ourselves that you're not ''cooking the books'' in future additions. We've already had all the controversy over your highly subjective valuations of the property malls so I think it would be beneficial for everyone to have as much disclosure as possible.
 
Yeah, and the situation is only going to get worse over here. Home purchases plummeted 27% from last month. Corporations are holding onto their cash, not hiring. ARM loans are coming due, just as the subprimes did 3 years ago. We're looking at a double dip recession and a long, long haul to pull out.

More mall bankruptcies sure to follow.

It doesn't have an impact on United anyway. Anders seems fascinated by it all though so we might as well humour him.
 
It doesn't have an impact on United anyway. Anders seems fascinated by it all though so we might as well humour him.

Indirectly, it does. It provides further evidence that
a/ the Glazers aren't the wonderful business people that you believe they are
b/ the Glazers would happily let a business go under if necessary rather than pump their own cash in to keep it afloat
c/ there's no money from First Allied to contribute to clearing the PIKs, as someone suggested there might be.
 
Indirectly, it does. It provides further evidence that
a/ the Glazers aren't the wonderful business people that you believe they are
b/ the Glazers would happily let a business go under if necessary rather than pump their own cash in to keep it afloat
c/ there's no money from First Allied to contribute to clearing the PIKs, as someone suggested there might be.

It provides nothing of the sort.

a) US shopping malls struggling during deepest recession in living memory shocker.

b) It makes no sense to keep some of the malls going because they've got so little equity tied up in them. They have £270m of equity tied up in United.

c) Who suggested that?
 
And the three months before that please. Actually how far do you go back? Post it all up if you would be so kind. It's great to have these figures out in the open because it will allow us to check for ourselves that you're not ''cooking the books'' in future additions. We've already had all the controversy over your highly subjective valuations of the property malls so I think it would be beneficial for everyone to have as much disclosure as possible.

The original work I did in June showed the comparison between the December vacancy rates and the May rates. Occupancy was rising (0.7%) over that period, this downturn represents a change in the trend.

There's a link on the blog to the whole spreadsheet, I'm surprised you don't have your own copy! Anyway, here it is:

http://www.editgrid.com/user/andy_green/FA_master_sheet_final_published.xls

Prior to that someone would have to go back through all the historic CMBS filings - why don't you do it if you are so interested?

But you're not interested or are you? I'm confused....

a) US shopping malls struggling during deepest recession in living memory shocker.

Well for one thing, "talented businessmen" might have seen that coming (or at least seen some sort of downturn around the corner), rather than just carrying on borrowing and buying until the shutters came down.

In addition, First Allied's problems are just as much to do with the financial structures put in place than the trading performance - even the best business can be screwed by having an inappropriate balance sheet. I think such misjudgements are of interest when thinking about the Glazers.

In fact it's a good thing they didn't stick any daft credit bubble debt structures onto the Red Football group of companies during that period. Unwinding that sort of thing could cost the football club millions and millions of pounds..... Oh, hang on....... :rolleyes:

As I said on my blog, people who don't see the relevance shouldn't waste their time on any of this....
 
Well for one thing, "talented businessmen" might have seen that coming (or at least seen some sort of downturn around the corner), rather than just carrying on borrowing and buying until the shutters came down.

well given what happened there don't appear to have been many "talented" businessmen around anywhere or "talented" Governments either
 
The original work I did in June showed the comparison between the December vacancy rates and the May rates. Occupancy was rising (0.7%) over that period, this downturn represents a change in the trend.

There's a link on the blog to the whole spreadsheet, I'm surprised you don't have your own copy! Anyway, here it is:

http://www.editgrid.com/user/andy_green/FA_master_sheet_final_published.xls

Prior to that someone would have to go back through all the historic CMBS filings - why don't you do it if you are so interested?

But you're not interested or are you? I'm confused....



Well for one thing, "talented businessmen" might have seen that coming (or at least seen some sort of downturn around the corner), rather than just carrying on borrowing and buying until the shutters came down.

In addition, First Allied's problems are just as much to do with the financial structures put in place than the trading performance - even the best business can be screwed by having an inappropriate balance sheet. I think such misjudgements are of interest when thinking about the Glazers.

In fact it's a good thing they didn't stick any daft credit bubble debt structures onto the Red Football group of companies during that period. Unwinding that sort of thing could cost the football club millions and millions of pounds..... Oh, hang on....... :rolleyes:

As I said on my blog, people who don't see the relevance shouldn't waste their time on any of this....

That doesn't help with the month to month changes in occupancy rates though which is what I was after really. Thanks anyway. We do have the August occupancy rates so we can keep an eye on your First Allied work from now on.

The point is Anders that I don't see the relevance of this to United but when you wake up to find yet further anti-Glazer shit stirring in the national media then it does sadly become relevant.

Oh and btw, did you see the (severe) downturn coming back in 2006? Hardly anyone did so to use that as a stick to beat the Glazers with is absurd.
 
seriously GCHQ, are you an employee or what?

No, I'm not an employee of the Glazers or United. I just want what is best for the club, like every supporter should, and in my view the best way we can all move forward from here is to accept that the Glazers will own the club for the forseeable future and to put all of our attention and support behind what is happening on the pitch.
 
fine, then just say that and move on. Im not sure what you are trying to achieve here. Its a football forum board, fans will make their own opinions. You can bang your head against a brick wall for the next 2 years but fans will still make their own opinions. Its getting a bit irritating in all honesty.
 
fine, then just say that and move on. Im not sure what you are trying to achieve here. Its a football forum board, fans will make their own opinions. You can bang your head against a brick wall for the next 2 years but fans will still make their own opinions. Its getting a bit irritating in all honesty.

I think the point is that those opinions will be based on a very one-sided reporting of the situation.
 
No, I'm not an employee of the Glazers or United. I just want what is best for the club, like every supporter should, and in my view the best way we can all move forward from here is to accept that the Glazers will own the club for the forseeable future and to put all of our attention and support behind what is happening on the pitch.

Well said, man.
 
As I said on my blog, people who don't see the relevance shouldn't waste their time on any of this....

Indeed - I have made my view clear in the past and as far as I am concerned this has very little relevance to my football club at all.
I would say the only thing it might show is it that Manchester United becomes even more important to the Glazers and they are even less likely to sell it.
 
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