ALL issues relating to the bond issue and club finances

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My memory is fading, but how much did the same of Ronaldo to Madrid in the aftermath of the CL defeat to Barca tie in with the ramping up of the green and gold campaign and the more widespread vocal objection to them? I know there was a lot of resentment that the 'Ronaldo money' was never pumped back in on new players.

Could have been totally different timing I honestly can't remember.

You're remembering correctly. The "Ronaldo money" was used by Green and MUST as a rallying cry for the green and gold campaign. Not coincidentally, Harris and O'Neill's Red Knights emerged from the bushes at about the same time.

As a historical footnote, in the three (financial) years surrounding the Ronaldo sale, we spent 45 mill, 55 mill and 44 mill on players. It's true that we didn't go out and spend 80 mill in the summer we sold him, but only an idiot would have expected us to - just not SAF's style.
 
My memory is fading, but how much did the same of Ronaldo to Madrid in the aftermath of the CL defeat to Barca tie in with the ramping up of the green and gold campaign and the more widespread vocal objection to them? I know there was a lot of resentment that the 'Ronaldo money' was never pumped back in on new players.

Could have been totally different timing I honestly can't remember.

It was the same year but I wouldn't say the anti-Glazer protest kicked off because of the Ronaldo money. It was a mixture things that pushed a few reds over the edge that season. It carried on into the 2010/11 season and got a bit of coverage in the news but it all went quiet when we won the league in May.
 
I'm assuming that you're not referring to our on-field performance as a "mess" (5 Prems and two 2nds in the last 7 years together with 3 CL finals, a WCC and sundry cups and shields), so you must be talking about the financial side. Hopefully you understand that mssrs Harris, O'Neill, Green and Drasdo were hell bent on making things look as bad as possible. The "550 mill" figure is an artifact of this. It's easiest to get at the reality by looking at cash flows in and out of the club over the 7 years from 2005 to 2012.

Total revenue: 1,856.144 mill
Player sales: 177.847 mill

Total Cash Inflow: 2,033.991 mill

Staff costs: 878.898 mill
Operating expenses: 384.397 mill
Net fixed assets: 89.561 mill
Player purchases: 294.867 mill

Total Cash Outflow: 1,647.723 mill

Difference: 386.628 mill

The "Difference" figure is essentially the operating surplus generated by the club. If we were still a plc both taxes and dividend would be paid out of that surplus. I estimate that the total of taxes and dividends over the period would have been around 240 mill; Green estimates the figure to be closer to 190 mill. In a spirit of compromise I'll split the difference and assume 215 mill. That leaves 171 miil that we have to account for. 5 mill went to increasing our cash reserve, so we are left with 166 mill that the Glazers are responsible for - not a small amount, but not 550 mill.

There are a couple of further twists to this story. There's an assumption hidden in there that, if we had continued as a plc, we would have generated the same revenues and, in particular, that the same growth in Commercial revenues would have occurred - even Green (andersred) has given up claiming that as likely. If the plc would have generated less revenue, the "cost of the Glazers" goes down from the 166 mill. But that might not be the most important impact.

The plc was wedded to the rule that player costs should be less than 50% of revenue. Without the immediate increase in commercial revenues - the shift to AIG and the increase in other sponsorships - that occurred after the LBO, salary growth would not have been possible within the constraint. In particular, it seems likely that we would only have been able to sign two of Evra, Vidic and Carrick - oops. Of course we'll never know what would have happened, but it's not inconceivable that a significant element of our on-field success was dependent on the growth of commercial revenues, and who knows what SAF would have done if he felt the board was not supporting him. Anyway, it's a good story and, before we get too busy condemning the Glazers, I suspect that a glance at the bigger picture might not be a bad thing. Blood sucking leeches vs. the saviours of our team????????????

Good messaging that! We need to move the argument on from: Blood sucking leeches vs. maybe they aren't too bad. Good thinking!
You need to be a little more careful about preserving the appearance of impartiality though; "I can't get the "Glazer cost" down below 40-50 mill no matter how bad I assume the plc might have been." just doesn't read well.

As for your dilemma, you just need to try harder! You could always conjure up an even worse worst case scenario for the counterfactual plc (but without ever going into specifics) or alter your "great analysis" above to include a few more "Difference" friendly errors.
For Hell's sake, don't make errors that are counterproductive- your "Net fixed asset" figure is too low. And you have excluded cash pay exceptional expenses, a not insignificant sum over the 7 year period. That omission works against what you're trying to accomplish- reducing the "Difference" figure.
You have excluded the positive working capital movement over the period. Good. That reduces "Total cash inflow" by about 90m and hence reduces the "difference" figure by the same. Nicely done.
My only worry though is that someone in the habit of reading financial statements might spot some of the errors\omissions above and pooh-pooh your "great analysis".
For instance:
1) They might argue that your quaint cash flow method is nonsense as it leaves out important elements, elements that actually need to appear in a proper explicit cash flow working.
2) They might observe (from the actual accounts) that total interest and debt repayment during the period was in excess of 410m and that excludes the dividend payment of 10m (and some other bits 'n' bobs). That contradicts your "Difference" figure of 387m.
3) A resourceful dullard might note that your "Difference" figure should equal [net cash inflow from operating activities - net players - net fixed assets] and demonstrate the weakness of your approach by arriving at a figure of c. 480m for "difference" (while using your incorrect figure for net fixed assets).
4) Any ordinary joe might spot that the increase in cash reserves during the period is a lot more than 5m- another error that works against what you are trying to achieve: reducing the "Difference" figure.


Now, I don't expect any of the above to happen but you can never tell. Publishing a detailed working to support an argument is always risky. It's much safer to eschew details, remain broad-brush, and concentrate on acclaiming the Glazer's commercial expertise.

Like the e-departed GCHQ.
 
Q3 results are out tomorrow if anyone is interested. Should be very interesting - hopefully will get the actual figures for the AON deal and how it is structured (any front loading for example).

CF call begins at 1 pm UK time. Will be on the IR pages for a month after as well so can listen to it at a later date if you are so inclined.

http://ir.manutd.com

Any idea what time the financial results are released?

According to the above 1pm?
 
The Company’s conference call to review the third quarter and nine months fiscal 2013 results will be broadcast live over the internet today, 2 May 2013 at 08:00 am Eastern Time and will be available on Manchester United’s investor relations website at http://ir.manutd.com. Thereafter, a replay of the webcast will be available for thirty days.

For those interested.
 
sponsorship up 52.2%
commercial up 31.9%
broadcasting up 24.4%
matchday up 27.8%
costs up 18.6% to £79m
 
Well, that can't be presupposed, obviously not. Then again what the old plc would've done had it carried on – is sheer conjecture no matter how you look at it. The assumption that they – the old plc – would have been incapable of expanding the “brand”, tapping into the Asian market, closing various deals with various sponsors...and all the rest of it, is equally spurious, surely?

It all depends on the status of the “brand” itself, doesn't it? United are a huge club with an enormous, world-wide fan base. This was true before the Glazers showed up, nobody will deny that. Now, sticking strictly to the business side of things, selling and expanding that “brand” is something a competent owner should be expected to do – or am I missing something?

What enraged fans at the time wasn't that we were taken over by astute businessmen. It was the form of the takeover itself. I sometimes get the feeling the Glazer apologists think a leveraged buyout is an ideal business model – and then proceed to prove this point by demonstrating how clever the Glazers have been in the market. That ain't logical – no matter how you twist and turn it.

When looking at how incompetent the PLC was commercially I always look at our rivals at the same time. For instance we have always been relatively similar to the other big players in world Football. Therefore I can only assume that we would continue the trend on a similar scale to the closest brands to ourselves, ie Real Madrid, Barcelona and Bayern Munich.

It is very easy to look at a trend in isolation and relate it to a chronological incident and make the connection. I remember seeing a (humorous) graph attributing the increase in the temperature of the planet with the decrease in the number of pirates in the world - obviously absurd.

I can't imagine any businessman seeing every top club in the world hugely increasing their Commercial revenues, and sit around thinking "that's not for us". It is far more likely that they would have stayed in line with our nearest rivals. They might have suddenly become incompetant vs their rivals of course, but this is very unlikely.

You're remembering correctly. The "Ronaldo money" was used by Green and MUST as a rallying cry for the green and gold campaign. Not coincidentally, Harris and O'Neill's Red Knights emerged from the bushes at about the same time.

As a historical footnote, in the three (financial) years surrounding the Ronaldo sale, we spent 45 mill, 55 mill and 44 mill on players. It's true that we didn't go out and spend 80 mill in the summer we sold him, but only an idiot would have expected us to - just not SAF's style.

Taken from swissramble, not quite the incredible spending spree you imply:

24+Utd+Use+of+Funds.jpg
 
No need for major retooling in the squad apparently or for any large meaningful investment. We can put out 2 teams off 11 internationals.

AON deal is year to year rising over 8 years.

Nike one is still in negotiating period.
 
So... what do the new results mean for the warchest?
 
Massive increases and it doesn't even include the AON training kit/complex deal :drool:

New TV deals next year and a re-negotiated kit deal with Nike to come aswell, things are looking great at the moment.
 
What sort of idiot measures quality by how many internationals we can put out? It means nothing nowadays.

We can also buy the San Marino (the entire state) and have another 30 internationals.
 
No need for major retooling in the squad apparently or for any large meaningful investment. We can put out 2 teams off 11 internationals.

AON deal is year to year rising over 8 years.

Nike one is still in negotiating period.

Well the first part is pretty accurate really. We don't need any investment at the back or up front. We'll probably sell Nani and Anderson so that will generate money to go towards buying a new midfielder and a winger if that's what we need. I wouldn't expect out NET expenditure on transfers to be too much this summer at all.

The 2 international teams thing is bollocks.
 
AGM date announced.

"Dear Shareholder:

You are cordially invited to attend the 2013 Annual General Meeting of Shareholders (the "Annual General Meeting") of Manchester United plc ("Manchester United"), to be held at 3:00 p.m., local time, on June 17, 2013, in the offices of Latham & Watkins, LLP, in the John Hancock Tower, 20th Floor, 200 Clarendon Street, Boston, Massachusetts. Information concerning the matters to be considered and voted upon at the Annual General Meeting is set out in the attached Notice of 2013 Annual General Meeting of Shareholders and Proxy Statement."

"Matters to be considered" being (re)election of the Board.


http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1549107/000104746913005622/a2215050zex-99_1.htm
 
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/Man Utd

Share prices have only dropped $.10 since the close of the NYSE. I would guess that it might drop more if Fergie were leaving?
 
Man Utd stocks down up to 4 % in the first 10 minutes of trading today

Meh, I was expecting more. The only thing that affects the share price is traders expectations of future earnings, and to be honest, the outlook is pretty much the same.
 
Meh, I was expecting more. The only thing that affects the share price is traders expectations of future earnings, and to be honest, the outlook is pretty much the same.

Whaaaa?

I don't know if you trade, but concerns regarding the future key appointments like manager etc would surely have an effect on the share price. :wenger:
 
Whaaaa?

I don't know if you trade, but concerns regarding the future key appointments like manager etc would surely have an effect on the share price. :wenger:

Yes, but ultimately is about future earnings. This change of management is evidently expected (according to the market) to alter the outlook for profits.
 
If they dive significantly, I might buy a few. Thinking that Fergie leaving is going to significantly harm the club, at least over the next season or so, demonstrates a lack of faith in... Fergie. We couldn't be in a much better position for the new man, really.
 
If they dive significantly, I might buy a few. Thinking that Fergie leaving is going to significantly harm the club, at least over the next season or so, demonstrates a lack of faith in... Fergie. We couldn't be in a much better position for the new man, really.

This is in line with my thinking, I don't think profit potential is harmed in any way. However, your reasoning postulates that the share price was accurately prices to begin with, which doesn't necessarily have to be true. It may still drop despite the change.
 
Whaaaa?

I don't know if you trade, but concerns regarding the future key appointments like manager etc would surely have an effect on the share price. :wenger:

It's a price moving announcement no doubt about it but it was never going to be as bad as some people made it out to be, it will probably drop a fair bit today but we will also see some retracement. We are in a good positon at the moment so there's no need to worry about the share price.
 
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