ALL issues relating to the bond issue and club finances

Status
Not open for further replies.
"Investors are also worried about the club's high levels of debt and that the financial structure of the business puts its customers, the fans, at odds with shareholders. The legendary English club's millions of fans around the world have shown a strong dislike for the Glazers, who acquired the 134-year-old team in 2005 using high levels of debt."


An ironic outcome to years of campaigning against the owners? The fan's outspoken opposition to the club's debt stops the Glazers removing it. :smirk:

On the contrary- I'd still support them as a NewCo
 
Just that read. A very interesting read since I haven't been following these matters closely. Also quite the depressing reminder of what could have been had the Glazers not been allowed to buy the club.

What could have been? :rolleyes: Four league titles in the last six years and three Champions League finals in the space of four years obviously isn't enough for some people.

And just for the record, if you honestly think the PLC would have been operating with a higher wage bill over the last seven years (and therefore in theory at least providing Fergie with a stronger playing squad) then you're living in cloud fecking cuckoo land.
 
I can't understand how anyone can praise the Glazer's business skills when the amount of wastage that has happened with finance manoeuvring.

All the praise for the commercial deals - We're still miles of Barca, Real and bayern in that department. People act like we're doing some uniquely innovative with mobile deals etc. I bet we would be getting similar revenues from this area if we were a plc.

Those aren't like for like comparisons because our retail and merchandising business has been licensed to Nike. So our revenue is c. £25m-£30m lower than it would otherwise have been (our R&M operating costs are obviously also much lower than other clubs).

Clearly the PLC would have been generating similar commercial revenues as to those achieved under the Glazers. I mean that two man strong sponsorship sales team in an office in the East Stand as late as 2005 was a force to be reckoned with! :lol:
 
What could have been? :rolleyes: Four league titles in the last six years and three Champions League finals in the space of four years obviously isn't enough for some people.

And just for the record, if you honestly think the PLC would have been operating with a higher wage bill over the last seven years (and therefore in theory at least providing Fergie with a stronger playing squad) then you're living in cloud fecking cuckoo land.

You're making it sound like the Glazers had a say in all this. We've achieved those magnificent results due to a world class manager, a great youth academy and a solid team. All of these things were already in place. These people would probably not know what football erm soccer means.

Would you be so kind in telling us what was the net spending in the past few years?
 
True enough - even executives won't get that close what even fringe players are on (though I think Gill is on over a million annually). But there was talk back in February about the impact of wages outside the playing staff having contributed to the increase in wages at a time we'd lost Brown, O'Shea, VDS and Scholes' wages from the books:



So when talking about wages, it's more than just players' wages being included - which is fine as long as results continue to be delivered.

The prospectus revealed that only £1m of the £10m increase in total staff costs in the first nine months of the 2011/12 financial year was attributable to non playing staff.
 
You're making it sound like the Glazers had a say in all this. We've achieved those magnificent results due to a world class manager, a great youth academy and a solid team. All of these things were already in place. These people would probably not know what football erm soccer means.

Would you be so kind in telling us what was the net spending in the past few years?

They have more than played their part. They brought much needed stability to the club by removing the previous largest shareholders who were in open conflict with that world class manager you speak of. Amazing how many people forget that!

They've also provided Fergie with more than adequate resources to build a squad capable of competing for the PL and CL trophies. Over £300m has been spent on signing players under their ownership and the Glazer inspired revenue increases have been absolutely vital in funding a huge rise in staff costs. In absolute terms, since 2005, City are the only PL club that has seen their wage bill increase by more than United's. For example, in the six years between 2005 and 2011, Chelsea's wage bill increased by £59m. United's increase over the same period? £76m!
 
What could have been? :rolleyes: Four league titles in the last six years and three Champions League finals in the space of four years obviously isn't enough for some people.

And just for the record, if you honestly think the PLC would have been operating with a higher wage bill over the last seven years (and therefore in theory at least providing Fergie with a stronger playing squad) then you're living in cloud fecking cuckoo land.

I think The Swiss Ramble says it best:

Gill has always insisted that funds can be spent on improving the squad, “The Glazers have retained that money in the bank and it’s there for Sir Alex if he needs it for players”, but the reality is that since 2005/06 United’s net spend of £68 million (per the Transfer League website) is only higher than the notoriously frugal Arsenal among top clubs. In the same period, Manchester City’s net spend is over £400 million, while Chelsea’s is nearly £300 million. Clearly, United’s net spend is reduced by the Ronaldo proceeds, but even so that’s a galling comparison, considering United’s revenue potency...

Nevertheless, a club with United’s financial capacity should be competing for the very best players, especially as they need to respond to the competitive threat from teams not afraid to spend. Although last season was pretty good by most standards, a bit more investment in the squad might have avoided losing the Premier League to City on goal difference and crashing out of the Champions League at the group stage.

Although United would probably still have not matched City’s outlay with Sir Alex Ferguson admitting, “We are not like other clubs who can spend fortunes”, they should still be spending a lot more than the likes of Aston Villa, Stoke and Fulham, which has not been the case over the last few years.

Similarly, United are under pressure to increase their wage bill of £153 million, as they have now slipped to third in the English wages league behind Manchester City (£174 million) and Chelsea (£168 million). In 2008, United’s wage bill was £67 million higher than City’s, but it is now £21 million lower, a turnaround of £88 million in just three years.

If all the debt is paid off after the IPO, the £45 million saving could theoretically be added to the wage bill, which would close that gap and allow United to challenge for the top talents in the game.

In fairness, United have not done too badly under the Glazers, winning the Premier League four times and the Champions League once, though much of that is down to the brilliance of Ferguson. It is doubtful whether any other manager in the modern era could have papered over the cracks and achieved so much with such a limited budget. The question is whether this success can be maintained once the great Scot finally leaves. As the prospectus drily puts it, “Any successor to our current manager may not be as successful as our current manager.”

This is another reason why the IPO is important, as it is doubtful whether a manager of the calibre of, say, Jose Mourinho would be tempted if he had to operate with one hand tied behind his back (from a financial perspective), when there are plenty of other clubs that are willing to give elite managers carte blanche.

As noted in the prospectus, “Our success depends on our ability to attract and retain the highest quality players and coaching staff. As a result, we are obliged to pay salaries generally comparable to our main competitors in England and Europe.” By this token, United are a fair way behind Barcelona and Real Madrid, which helps explain the 10% rise in the wage bill for the first nine months of 2011/12.

To give some idea of the constraints faced by Ferguson, we only need to look at the club’s cash flow statement. Since 2009 United have generated a very healthy £353 million operating cash flow, but have spent the vast majority on interest payments and paying off loans and bonds. In that period they have used 77% of their expenditure on these financial costs with only 12% (£45 million) on player purchases.

As an aside, cash flow for the nine months up to 31 March 2012 is a large negative £125 million, partly recognising higher expenditure on transfers, but mainly due to working capital movements of minus £71 million, which are described as being down to timing, e.g. receipts from sponsors, season tickets and hospitality). This may well be the case: for the same period the previous year, working capital movements were also negative (minus £41 million), but ended up as positive £14 million for the full year. However, it does go to show that United’s cash flow is under pressure in the current business model if they pay interest AND buy players.

The money wasted in the Glazers’ reign is now estimated at £553 million, comprising £295 million interest payments, £128 million debt repayments, £101 million for various bits of financial reengineering (fees for takeover, refinancing, interest swap termination, bond issue and IPO) and £29 million payments to the Glazer family via consultancy fees and dividends.

In the last nine months alone, they have thrown away £79 million: interest £43 million, bond buybacks £28 million, IPO professional fees £5 million and £3 million consultancy fees, not to mention £10 million dividends to the Glazer family to repay loans taken out previously.

...

There is no doubt that United’s commercial business has thrived under the Glazers’ guidance, but, again, other owners with the slightest business acumen would surely have done much the same with a brand as wonderful as that described in the IPO prospectus.
 
They have more than played their part. They brought much needed stability to the club by removing the previous largest shareholders who were in open conflict with that world class manager you speak of. Amazing how many people forget that!

They've also provided Fergie with more than adequate resources to build a squad capable of competing for the PL and CL trophies. Over £300m has been spent on signing players under their ownership and the Glazer inspired revenue increases have been absolutely vital in funding a huge rise in staff costs. In absolute terms, since 2005, City are the only PL club that has seen their wage bill increase by more than United's. For example, in the six years between 2005 and 2011, Chelsea's wage bill increased by £59m. United's increase over the same period? £76m!

They converted a perfectly run business which was an example of how a club should be run into a debt ridden club with owners acting as leeches by loaning money from the club at advantageous rates. Our net spending is lower then the likes of Spurs, Liverpool and Sunderland.
 
They converted a perfectly run business which was an example of how a club should be run into a debt ridden club with owners acting as leeches by loaning money from the club at advantageous rates. Our net spending is lower then the likes of Spurs, Liverpool and Sunderland.

the bit you deleted was spot on - anyone seeking to justify the owners' position can't be taken seriously or they're a "plant". Nobody with the club's welfare at heart could possibly support these leeches. This guy is well beyond credibility with his staunch support of a regime that is bleeding hundreds of millions from the club.
 
Damn. GCHQ banged on about how debt was good. It motivated people. So why are the Glazers tryng to reduce it. It makes no sense.

Gill said the Debt hasn't affected United. So why reduce it. There are benefits to debt. Debt is good.
 
What could have been? :rolleyes: Four league titles in the last six years and three Champions League finals in the space of four years obviously isn't enough for some people.

And just for the record, if you honestly think the PLC would have been operating with a higher wage bill over the last seven years (and therefore in theory at least providing Fergie with a stronger playing squad) then you're living in cloud fecking cuckoo land.

GCHQ Logic you dismiss a person for considering a hypothetical situaton (ie no Glazers) then use a hypothetical argument (ie if we remained a PLC) to make your point.

GCHQ Logic = hypocrisy
 
the bit you deleted was spot on - anyone seeking to justify the owners' position can't be taken seriously or they're a "plant". Nobody with the club's welfare at heart could possibly support these leeches. This guy is well beyond credibility with his staunch support of a regime that is bleeding hundreds of millions from the club.

I deleted it as a sign of respect towards this forum, the mods and all those contributing in redcafe. However that doesn't mean that I dont believe what I've written.
 
Damn. GCHQ banged on about how debt was good. It motivated people. So why are the Glazers tryng to reduce it. It makes no sense.

Gill said the Debt hasn't affected United. So why reduce it. There are benefits to debt. Debt is good.

It would be interesting to investigate the numerous pay rises Gill had got since he changed his tune.
 
GCHQ Logic you dismiss a person for considering a hypothetical situaton (ie no Glazers) then use a hypothetical argument (ie if we remained a PLC) to make your point.

GCHQ Logic = hypocrisy

You can point to trends, though. I can see two beneficial actions to their ownership, one being their modernisation of the club as a business, and secondly their non-interference with a manager who was facing a legal battle with a couple of our shareholders. This also means decisions are more streamlined and efficient than a bunch of shareholders who don't really have as much of a vested interest in the club.

Once the debt is gone, long-term these changes will have been for the better, just as long as any potential new owners keep out of the sporting affairs.
 
You can point to trends, though. I can see two beneficial actions to their ownership, one being their modernisation of the club as a business, and secondly their non-interference with a manager who was facing a legal battle with a couple of our shareholders. This also means decisions are more streamlined and efficient than a bunch of shareholders who don't really have as much of a vested interest in the club.

Once the debt is gone, long-term these changes will have been for the better, just as long as any potential new owners keep out of the sporting affairs.

Spot on.
 
You can point to trends, though. I can see two beneficial actions to their ownership, one being their modernisation of the club as a business, and secondly their non-interference with a manager who was facing a legal battle with a couple of our shareholders. This also means decisions are more streamlined and efficient than a bunch of shareholders who don't really have as much of a vested interest in the club.

Once the debt is gone, long-term these changes will have been for the better, just as long as any potential new owners keep out of the sporting affairs.

Spending £533m so far on financing their ownership was beneficial? So they went from a shareholding structure back to a shareholding structure.

As to the point shreholders - their are far larger companies than United who operate with far more shareholders and have streamlined business decisions.

If shareholders didnt care they would cease being shareholder - no one is holding a gun to them to keep ownership.
 
Spending £533m so far on financing their ownership was beneficial? So they went from a shareholding structure back to a shareholding structure.

As to the point shreholders - their are far larger companies than United who operate with far more shareholders and have streamlined business decisions.

If shareholders didnt care they would cease being shareholder - no one is holding a gun to them to keep ownership.

:lol: Where did I ever say that? That, of course, is not beneficial. I listed the two points that are beneficial, even more beneficial now the club is clearly out of the woods in regards to the debt. The long-term future is looking fairly rosy now, despite what others would have you believe.

And do you really think the shareholders gave much of a shit about the day-to-day running of the club? They're happy to see their dividends come in and may attend the AGM but apart from that, all they're doing is adding another layer of management with a power to veto things that they really don't know anything about. Now it's Fergie -> Gill -> Glazers. Which do you think the two most important men prefer?
 
They have more than played their part. They brought much needed stability to the club by removing the previous largest shareholders who were in open conflict with that world class manager you speak of. Amazing how many people forget that!

They've also provided Fergie with more than adequate resources to build a squad capable of competing for the PL and CL trophies. Over £300m has been spent on signing players under their ownership and the Glazer inspired revenue increases have been absolutely vital in funding a huge rise in staff costs. In absolute terms, since 2005, City are the only PL club that has seen their wage bill increase by more than United's. For example, in the six years between 2005 and 2011, Chelsea's wage bill increased by £59m. United's increase over the same period? £76m!

Much needed stability, are you actually for real? You seriously believe the last 6 years of waste, financial chicanery, under-investment and bad publicity has bought stability to United? You think the club is stable now?

I'm gobsmacked you can even begin to type & post these words with a belief that they hold any truth.

And feck off saying they "removed" Magnier & McManus. Those two were more than happy to sell their shares and take the profit. The Glazers are opportunistic capitalists whose primary interest is to stabilise and enhance their own personal wealth....nothing more. They picked their moment beautifully didn't they?
 
I think The Swiss Ramble says it best:

Gill has always insisted that funds can be spent on improving the squad, “The Glazers have retained that money in the bank and it’s there for Sir Alex if he needs it for players”, but the reality is that since 2005/06 United’s net spend of £68 million (per the Transfer League website) is only higher than the notoriously frugal Arsenal among top clubs. In the same period, Manchester City’s net spend is over £400 million, while Chelsea’s is nearly £300 million. Clearly, United’s net spend is reduced by the Ronaldo proceeds, but even so that’s a galling comparison, considering United’s revenue potency...

Nevertheless, a club with United’s financial capacity should be competing for the very best players, especially as they need to respond to the competitive threat from teams not afraid to spend. Although last season was pretty good by most standards, a bit more investment in the squad might have avoided losing the Premier League to City on goal difference and crashing out of the Champions League at the group stage.

Although United would probably still have not matched City’s outlay with Sir Alex Ferguson admitting, “We are not like other clubs who can spend fortunes”, they should still be spending a lot more than the likes of Aston Villa, Stoke and Fulham, which has not been the case over the last few years.

Similarly, United are under pressure to increase their wage bill of £153 million, as they have now slipped to third in the English wages league behind Manchester City (£174 million) and Chelsea (£168 million). In 2008, United’s wage bill was £67 million higher than City’s, but it is now £21 million lower, a turnaround of £88 million in just three years.

If all the debt is paid off after the IPO, the £45 million saving could theoretically be added to the wage bill, which would close that gap and allow United to challenge for the top talents in the game.

In fairness, United have not done too badly under the Glazers, winning the Premier League four times and the Champions League once, though much of that is down to the brilliance of Ferguson. It is doubtful whether any other manager in the modern era could have papered over the cracks and achieved so much with such a limited budget. The question is whether this success can be maintained once the great Scot finally leaves. As the prospectus drily puts it, “Any successor to our current manager may not be as successful as our current manager.”

This is another reason why the IPO is important, as it is doubtful whether a manager of the calibre of, say, Jose Mourinho would be tempted if he had to operate with one hand tied behind his back (from a financial perspective), when there are plenty of other clubs that are willing to give elite managers carte blanche.

As noted in the prospectus, “Our success depends on our ability to attract and retain the highest quality players and coaching staff. As a result, we are obliged to pay salaries generally comparable to our main competitors in England and Europe.” By this token, United are a fair way behind Barcelona and Real Madrid, which helps explain the 10% rise in the wage bill for the first nine months of 2011/12.

To give some idea of the constraints faced by Ferguson, we only need to look at the club’s cash flow statement. Since 2009 United have generated a very healthy £353 million operating cash flow, but have spent the vast majority on interest payments and paying off loans and bonds. In that period they have used 77% of their expenditure on these financial costs with only 12% (£45 million) on player purchases.

As an aside, cash flow for the nine months up to 31 March 2012 is a large negative £125 million, partly recognising higher expenditure on transfers, but mainly due to working capital movements of minus £71 million, which are described as being down to timing, e.g. receipts from sponsors, season tickets and hospitality). This may well be the case: for the same period the previous year, working capital movements were also negative (minus £41 million), but ended up as positive £14 million for the full year. However, it does go to show that United’s cash flow is under pressure in the current business model if they pay interest AND buy players.

The money wasted in the Glazers’ reign is now estimated at £553 million, comprising £295 million interest payments, £128 million debt repayments, £101 million for various bits of financial reengineering (fees for takeover, refinancing, interest swap termination, bond issue and IPO) and £29 million payments to the Glazer family via consultancy fees and dividends.

In the last nine months alone, they have thrown away £79 million: interest £43 million, bond buybacks £28 million, IPO professional fees £5 million and £3 million consultancy fees, not to mention £10 million dividends to the Glazer family to repay loans taken out previously.

...

There is no doubt that United’s commercial business has thrived under the Glazers’ guidance, but, again, other owners with the slightest business acumen would surely have done much the same with a brand as wonderful as that described in the IPO prospectus.

So would the PLC have been able to outspend City and Chelsea? Would they have had the foresight to develop the commercial revenue as the Glazers have?

I don't agree with the last paragraph at all. Besides what has been proven was that the club was seriously undervalued when the Glazers bought it. If any investor "with the slightest business acumen" could have done the same, then they were fools for not buying it before the Glazers did.

Also money paid on the debt is not wasted if it leads to a debt free club that is worth much much more than it was before. If United need funds in the future, they will be able to find investment easily as the value of the club has and will rise considerably.
 
Much needed stability, are you actually for real? You seriously believe the last 6 years of waste, financial chicanery, under-investment and bad publicity has bought stability to United? You think the club is stable now?

:lol:

feck me - has the last 6 years of competition on all fronts including 4 leagues in 5 years and 3 champions league final appearances and bringing one home not good enough?

Seriously? Are we supposed to be seen as net spending 100m a season and spending obscene amounts on wages that are out of control because thats what it takes to compete?

Does Manchester United mean a quintuple is bare minimum every season? You'd think the club has been out of the top four for 10 years and is starved of a trophy the way some people talk about the 'lack of investment'.
 
Much needed stability, are you actually for real? You seriously believe the last 6 years of waste, financial chicanery, under-investment and bad publicity has bought stability to United? You think the club is stable now?

And to me this is just as much bullshit as any pro-Glazer spiel. Of course the club is stable.
 
So would the PLC have been able to outspend City and Chelsea? Would they have had the foresight to develop the commercial revenue as the Glazers have?

I don't agree with the last paragraph at all. Besides what has been proven was that the club was seriously undervalued when the Glazers bought it. If any investor "with the slightest business acumen" could have done the same, then they were fools for not buying it before the Glazers did.

Also money paid on the debt is not wasted if it leads to a debt free club that is worth much much more than it was before. If United need funds in the future, they will be able to find investment easily as the value of the club has and will rise considerably.

We did not have to spend anywhere near the same to stay at the top as City/Chelsea did to get there, because our starting base was much, much better. We already had a very good squad and only needed to tweak it to be a great squad, similar to our position now. Fortunately Fergie has performed the miracle of keeping us very competitive in the PL whilst spending less than the likes of Villa & Stoke.

Of course various potential owners were fools not to buy it with hindsight. You look at the TV deals that every club is benefiting from now and of course this is the case. Very few predicted even the latest TV deal rise which has blown previous ones out of the water, when many predicted it would flatten out. The same is the case with Commercial dealings, the clubs with a similar brand (Liverpool, Real, Barcelona, Bayern Munich) are all benefiting from a huge rise in this area. No-one could have predicted this 7-8 years ago and it is very fortunate for the Glazer's that this happened.

The fact is Liverpool signed a shirt sponsorship at the same value as ours, whilst not being involved in the Champions League. To me that is a perfect example of either: us hugely undervaluing our deal (which could be the case given we needed a large chunk it up front); or that the brand sells itself.

Liverpool's commercial revenue is a good example to be honest. There's has more than doubled (£37m - £77.5m) from 2006-2011, whilst going from European Champions to a mid-table Premier League team. Ours in the same time frame has risen from £55m to £103m, which in terms of % growth is slower. Are we to believe that they are also gifted with incredibly forward thinking commercially minded owners... Likewise every other top team? More likely is that brands such as Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich, Liverpool and ourselves are brands that are selling themselves, irrespective of ownership.

I don't really understand the last point, once we are debt free, if another person purchased us whilst saddling us with £1b of debt, would the £100m leaving us every year again not be being "wasted", as eventually it would lead to a debt free club?

You can point to trends, though. I can see two beneficial actions to their ownership, one being their modernisation of the club as a business, and secondly their non-interference with a manager who was facing a legal battle with a couple of our shareholders. This also means decisions are more streamlined and efficient than a bunch of shareholders who don't really have as much of a vested interest in the club.

Once the debt is gone, long-term these changes will have been for the better, just as long as any potential new owners keep out of the sporting affairs.

Can you point to particular incidents that these streamlined decisions hindered us in the past or are helping us currently? Likewise with the modernisation aspect.
 
Um ... http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2004/feb/01/newsstory.sport5

And just look how our commercial arm has expanded since the takeover, everyone's favourite GCHQ has already explained this many times.

As I stated in the same post, if you look at every other team that is on a similar level marketability wise, their Commercial turnover has increased by a similar %. I don't see how this is a particularly amazing thing, unless you think not being stupid owners and/or doing what every other competent owner would do is a positive attribute.

In which case we may as well also state that not forcing Ferguson to quit is also a positive.
 
Most of the Glazers "increased" revenue is down to higher ticket prices, the new 8000 seats, the new shirt sponsor and because of our on field success. (or simply because we have Sir Alex)

So we couldn't have done this without the Glazers, right?
We most certainly couldn't have thrown away obscene amounts of money in interest payments without them though. That particular accomplishment is on them.
 
:lol:

feck me - has the last 6 years of competition on all fronts including 4 leagues in 5 years and 3 champions league final appearances and bringing one home not good enough?

Seriously? Are we supposed to be seen as net spending 100m a season and spending obscene amounts on wages that are out of control because thats what it takes to compete?

Does Manchester United mean a quintuple is bare minimum every season? You'd think the club has been out of the top four for 10 years and is starved of a trophy the way some people talk about the 'lack of investment'.

Ok then. Rather than steaming in on the defensive like a petulant teenager perhaps take some time to actually read first, then you might pick up that I said "under-investment" which I'm quite sure I'm entitled to state.

Your completely OTT reaction is slightly puzzling. Are these all meant to be rhetorical questions? You are obviously someone who is quite cynical judging by the way you jump to ludicrous conclusions very easily. Advice would be don't assume anyrhing until you actually know the score.
 
So would the PLC have been able to outspend City and Chelsea? Would they have had the foresight to develop the commercial revenue as the Glazers have?

I don't agree with the last paragraph at all. Besides what has been proven was that the club was seriously undervalued when the Glazers bought it. If any investor "with the slightest business acumen" could have done the same, then they were fools for not buying it before the Glazers did.

Also money paid on the debt is not wasted if it leads to a debt free club that is worth much much more than it was before. If United need funds in the future, they will be able to find investment easily as the value of the club has and will rise considerably.
Why do you care about the worth of the club? You're talking like an investor rather than a fan. Do one and feck around on the stock exchange instead.
 
I see GCHQ's still doing that thing where he presupposes what the club would have done under the PLC over the past 7 years.
 
Ok then. Rather than steaming in on the defensive like a petulant teenager perhaps take some time to actually read first, then you might pick up that I said "under-investment" which I'm quite sure I'm entitled to state.

It's hard to argue that we've significantly under-invested. Fergie simply hasn't bought well in recent years - too many failures and flops. Hargreaves, Anderson, Berbatov, Bebe, Tosic, Diouf, Obertan, the Tevez loan, cost over £100M. And I'd argue that the Young money could have been better spent, although the jury is still out on that.
 
:lol:

feck me - has the last 6 years of competition on all fronts including 4 leagues in 5 years and 3 champions league final appearances and bringing one home not good enough?

Seriously? Are we supposed to be seen as net spending 100m a season and spending obscene amounts on wages that are out of control because thats what it takes to compete?

Does Manchester United mean a quintuple is bare minimum every season? You'd think the club has been out of the top four for 10 years and is starved of a trophy the way some people talk about the 'lack of investment'.

Its a pretty silly argument you have.

You dont have to spend money on big transfers to develop the club. 500mil gone which could have been used on development loads of such such as the stadium,training facilities,etc.
 
:lol: Where did I ever say that? That, of course, is not beneficial. I listed the two points that are beneficial, even more beneficial now the club is clearly out of the woods in regards to the debt. The long-term future is looking fairly rosy now, despite what others would have you believe.

And do you really think the shareholders gave much of a shit about the day-to-day running of the club? They're happy to see their dividends come in and may attend the AGM but apart from that, all they're doing is adding another layer of management with a power to veto things that they really don't know anything about. Now it's Fergie -> Gill -> Glazers. Which do you think the two most important men prefer?

The points you made have a cost attached to them. my point is you cannot take the points in isolalation ie for the outcomes there was a cost or a means to an end. Was the means worth the ends?
 
GCHQ argument was always debt is good now the Glazers feels like reducing the debt. Paying dividends which he said was efficient.

Does he work for the Glazers?
 
The points you made have a cost attached to them. my point is you cannot take the points in isolalation ie for the outcomes there was a cost or a means to an end. Was the means worth the ends?

No, but you phrase it as if there was a choice. There is a real silver lining and the benefits, thankfully, should stay long after the debt is gone.
 
No, but you phrase it as if there was a choice. There is a real silver lining and the benefits, thankfully, should stay long after the debt is gone.

What makes you think the Glazers won't carry on taking out just as much money as they do now, but just put it straight in their pockets instead? That's the only reason they raided the club for in the first place, after all.
 
What makes you think the Glazers won't carry on taking out just as much money as they do now, but just put it straight in their pockets instead? That's the only reason they raided the club for in the first place, after all.

If they did that, why would they be sanctioning so much spending while in debt? I mean, personally I'd have pocketed the 7.2m spent on Bebe. The Glazers spent about 120m dollars on free agents in the NFL this off-season, it's in their interest to see that their teams are competitive. They could just sell their franchise for hundreds of millions if it was all about hoarding as much cash as possible.
 
If they did that, why would they be sanctioning so much spending while in debt? I mean, personally I'd have pocketed the 7.2m spent on Bebe. The Glazers spent about 120m dollars on free agents in the NFL this off-season, it's in their interest to see that their teams are competitive. They could just sell their franchise for hundreds of millions if it was all about hoarding as much cash as possible.

Of course it's in their interest to keep the 'franchise' competitive to keep the revenue rolling in. Hence they have to spend some on players to keep it going.

Do your really believe they've not sold United so far because they love them so dearly? They'll sell soon enough if and when they think that would make them more money than by holding on.
 
It's hard to argue that we've significantly under-invested. Fergie simply hasn't bought well in recent years - too many failures and flops. Hargreaves, Anderson, Berbatov, Bebe, Tosic, Diouf, Obertan, the Tevez loan, cost over £100M. And I'd argue that the Young money could have been better spent, although the jury is still out on that.

I disagree. For each one of them you have an outstanding success, since the Glazers took over we have bought Nani, Evra, Vidic, Hernandez, Rafael, Valencia, Carrick, VDS. That's probably the best part of £200m worth of talent (in their prime) for a third of that in fees. The failures/flops on the other hand amount to roughly £70m after you take into account their sales.

Fergie's business in the transfer market and ability to motivate a good but not great squad has without doubt been the key to our success. If he had the kind of freedom in the transfer market that he had in 1998-2003 I would dread to think of the success we would have had, at the very least 6 titles on the bounce.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.