ALL issues relating to the bond issue and club finances

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Manchester, United made £286m turnover, more than any other club if Arsenal's property income is discounted – yet the costs and interest on the debts the Glazer family have loaded on to the club, pushed United into a losing £79m.

This from the Guardian seems rather negative. Is it justifiable or is it missing some important aspects of United's finances? I only ask because I am not very knowledgable on the subject and I know that you and GCHQ seem to have a good handle on this sort of stuff

Most media reports on our finances are negative, but they tend to miss out a lot of the real facts.
We do have large interest payments to make, but even after that we are profitable in real terms - as mentioned by Drainy, there are quite a few accounting tricks which hide the real picture.

Some more recent analysis here:
the andersred blog: Manchester United’s Q3 results: not nearly as interesting as the football
 
Glazers may still be reviled but the tills are ringing at Old Trafford | Owen Gibson | Football | The Guardian

As thousands of Manchester United fans throng the Underground to Wembley on Saturday for the club's third Champions League final in four years, they will pass a handful of peeling stickers bearing the legend "Love United, Hate Glazer" on some Jubilee Line escalators. For most, last year's talk of mass boycotts and fan takeovers is a distant memory that, sated with this season's success, they might associate with the green-and-gold scarf at the bottom of the wardrobe. For a large minority, the anger still burns fiercely.

It is but one of many paradoxes at the heart of the story of the club owned by the Glazers. The American owners are still reviled by many fans but they have overseen a period that has been the most successful, and most fractious, in the club's history. More than £350m has flowed out in interest and fees, yet the club has become a global moneymaking machine that throws up £60m a year in free cashflow.

Fans have watched as the likes of Cristiano Ronaldo and Carlos Tevez leave yet Sir Alex Ferguson has somehow managed to marshal the resources at his disposal into a team capable of challenging the best in Europe. And, now that the owners have moved the high-interest PIK debts out of the public eye (probably by refinancing them away from the glare of the media and supporters) and cleared the one-off costs associated with the bond issue, they are prepared to break the bank for star names that they doubtless calculate will further dampen criticism.

By the end of the summer the club will be sitting on a cash pile estimated at upwards of £160m and it is clear that – post Wayne Rooney's £200,000-a-week deal – there is room in the budget for big-name players, with wages and transfer fees no object as long as they fit the template of having age on their side. New £17m goalkeeper David de Gea is unlikely to be the last big money arrival this summer.

In another stark contrast, the club have faced a series of PR problems at home, from allegations of heavy-handed stewarding to consistent claims they refuse to listen to fans, while spending millions on research and marketing to drive commercial revenues and successfully grow their fanbase abroad. In one of the most exclusive corners of the capital, a team of 70 sales and marketing staff have overseen commercial growth that will rise steeply again from £27m in the current financial year. When the Glazers took over, commercial revenue stood at £9m.

That figure is doubled by advertising featuring the United brand, plus the money spent by the shirt sponsor Aon and Nike. Both of those deals are up in 2014 and there is confidence the £20m a year brought in by the latter can be significantly improved upon.

That visibility around the world, plus the opportunity of deals with telecom, internet and broadcast companies, is the reason the owners are confident United have found a virtuous circle that will enable them to pull away from the pack. The big question for them is whether that growth has peaked. They insist it has not.

With growth in matchday revenues largely flat, partly as a result of pressure from fans that has stopped ticket prices rising above inflation, the Glazers are increasingly reliant on their global commercial drive. and the continued rise in Premier League TV income. With the next overseas deal likely to overtake domestic revenues for the first time, top clubs remain hopeful that the existing £3.5bn over the three years to 2013 will be beaten even if the deals with home broadcasters remain flat or dip slightly.

Longer term, United executives hope the financial fair-play model introduced by Uefa next season will help control wage inflation and play into the hands of a clubs able to generate significant cashflow.

Barely a week goes by without a new sale being rung up by the growing commercial operation that operates out of the heart of upmarket offices 206 miles away from Old Trafford. On Wednesday it was a deal with Honda to sell Manchester United branded scooters in Thailand.

The future vision is for a gaggle of pre-match reporters on the pitch at Old Trafford, delivering bespoke content in different languages that will then be distributed via "triple-play deals" with mobile phone, internet and TV companies and into which can be inserted locally targeted digital ads on advertising hoardings. The Glazers have sensibly left the Manchester "football" operation, overseen by David Gill and Ferguson, to largely run itself.Therefore the mythology and romance that fuels the marketing operation has endured even as it is ruthlessly sliced, diced and exploited around the world.

Insiders insist much of this strategic vision is down to the Glazers, who are far more hands on in the business side of the club than they are given credit for and are enthusiastic and passionate owners. Given their secretive business practices and refusal to speak to the media, we'll never know.

The biggest gamble taken by the Glazers was to bet that Ferguson – who, grateful for the lack of interference in his affairs, has repeatedly backed them – would be able to keep the team winning on a more limited budget. He has delivered in spades. Though they would argue otherwise, the owners' feat of financial engineering probably could not have been achieved under any other manager. One thing the owners have in common with every fan is a desire for him to delay retirement for as long as possible.

Those who vociferously protested against the Glazer model in the stirring demonstrations that marked last season, also believe they have played their part. "The protests have done their job. They have reminded them they can only push things financially so far and have also stopped them taking £100m out of the club," said the blogger Andy Green, who has meticulously chronicled the Glazers financial model. "It's quite easy to fall into the trap of thinking we've failed. But looked at the other way, ticket prices have been frozen for three years and they haven't taken this money out that they clearly designed the whole bond issue to do. We should remember that."
 
It appears that those figures include the PIKs which are no longer associated with the club as far as we know:

'£334.5m of cumulative losses over that period of which interest charges contributed £469m.

Of this £469m of interest charges (including exceptionals) £255m was paid. Of the remaining £214m £97m was rolled up PIK interest'
 
Can anyone take a look over at this post on RAWK, and see if all the numbers stack up?

I have to admit, I've been decidedly less anti Glazer recently, but these numbers are staggering.

Glazer debt drains Manchester United

You must be mental believing those delusional cnuts. I think I saw them claiming United were a billion in debt and paying a 100m a year in interest.

Their desperation about 19 is worse than I thought.
 
It appears that those figures include the PIKs which are no longer associated with the club as far as we know:

That's the key point really.

Anyway I'd prefer not to go anywhere near RAWK to be honest - hardly going to get any balanced analysis over there!
 
I mostly post about United, and try and be as objective as I reasonably can. I don't think it's that hard, they're all good people really, and I like seeing what they think about the squad. They have the same amount of knobs as us.

But yeah, claiming they're "making it up" is all well and good, but I really don't get where they've got their figures from, or even better, if those figures are right or not. Is it only the PIK's which are out? Because we don't even know what's happened to them.
 
The PIKs no longer exist. No money left the club to pay them off.

Any personal debts the Glazers may have (and we don't actually know, though it is likely they refinanced their personal PIK debts) are as relevant to United as any personal debts John Henry and NESV may have are to Liverpool.
 
Basically what they're saying is, the Glazer's debt is increasing, why wouldn't they take it out of United.

It's a fair point.

The amount of cash the Glazers can take out of the club is limited by the terms of the bond issue. The maximum they can take whilst the bond is in place is £95 million in cash and 50% of the Consolidated Net Income of the club annually.

I suspect the Glazer's business plan is not to take dividends from the club to finance their other businesses (they haven't taken any dividends as yet), but to keep increasing the value of the club before eventually selling for a huge profit in a few years time.
 
But the Glazer's are 1.1 billion in debt aren't they? The clubs debt reduces, but we haven't a clue how the Glazer's are doing.

We have no idea what level of debt the Glazers have. Do Liverpool fans know the personal debts of their owners?
 
Interforum conversations...

Are you lot mental?

They don't need to take dividends out cos you're paying for the fecking debt.

Indeed. From the latest accounts United's net debt is £365m (£478m gross debt less £113m cash in the bank). We are paying for that. the andersred blog: Manchester United’s Q3 results: not nearly as interesting as the football

For us to pay debt not on the club (i.e. the Glazer's personal debts like the suspected refinanced PIKs) then that would have to leave the club through a dividend.
 
From what I recall, the panorama show where the £1.1bn came from, was quite shit. I could be wrong, but i seem to remember them focusing on a few empty spaces in a couple of shopping centres they own, as 'signs the empire is crumbling', in a really cheap-shot way refusing to provide any context e.g world recession, what it's occupational percentage was like compared to other retail areas in the country etc. Quite a rubbish and ideological piece of journalism.

Essentially what all non-financial journalists take, are the headline figures. It's because they're easier for them to form a narrative from. Whichever way you look at it, you can make a punchier narrative with the whole 'Glazer's in big trouble - look at the size of the debt - WOW!'. And sadly that is what we have been left with from the media 99% of the time.

If you would have listened to them over the years, it is quite staggering we manage to even pay the electricity bill let alone everything else.
 
So all they can take every year is £95m and half of your profits? fecking hell, that's alright then.

The £95m is a one off sum, not annual. We all assumed that it would be taken to pay down some of their personal PIK debt, but it wasn't. Maybe they will in the future?

Yes they could take up to 50% of net profit in a dividend each year if they wanted, they are the owners. They haven't as yet, we shall have to wait and see if they do so in future. I fail to see how an owner taking some of the profit from a business (i.e. money after costs including interest payments) could send it under though?
 
More RAWK responses...

Dividends!!!

You are funding their takeover of your club which is costing you more than most EPL teams turnover in a year and yet you talk about them not taking any dividends!

You are fecking insane Twigg, no offence!

We are paying for them to own the club. We know that. We're not happy about it, but we know it to be the case. What we're saying is that, shit as it may be to be paying for the privilege of being owned by the Glazers, the club isn't going bankrupt.

In terms of the costs of the Glazers' ownership in comparison to the PLC days, here's what was paid in tax (we don't currently pay tax under the Glazers because of the debt offset) and dividends under the PLC:

2000 turnover £116m profit £16.7m tax £4.8m dividend £4.9m
2001 turnover £130m profit £21.7m tax £7.4m dividend £5.1m
2002 turnover £146m profit £32.3m tax £7.3m dividend £8.0m
2003 turnover £173m profit £39.3m tax £9.5m dividend £10.3m
2004 turnover £169m profit £27.9m tax £8.5m dividend £7.0m

An average of 28.0% of profit paid in tax per annum and 25.8% paid in dividends. That means an amount equal to 53.8% of profit left the club each year under the PLC on average. We've been getting fleeced for years. Though at least we didn't have debt on the club at that time.
 
Mike your wasting your time and effort mate, your trying to educate morons who are still basing their doom and gloom United numbers on PIK interest that no longer exists ffs and thats supposedly from the financial brains of RAWK! :lol::lol: this is the level of idiocy your dealing with here, they're convinced because tom and jerry led them a merry dance and took their club to the point of oblivion we're just bound to go the same way totally ignoring the financial situations and size of clubs are totally different.

What i also find amusing is this attitude of theres as if they're trying ever so nicely to help us see the light, they're oh so concerned that we're not getting it as if they're our lovable neighbour trying to do us a good deed quite insulting given they appear to have little clue about any of what they're talking about in the first place......:wenger: give it up ffs you lot havnt the first clue which youve displayed time after time in that thread of yours over there, when you want to start getting the slightest hint of realism stop baseing your random numbers on debts that no longer exist and ignore the big red top back page headlines more people might start taking you seriously, thank you ever so much for your genuine heart felt concern but we'll be just fine.
 
Most amusing seeing the Scousers trying desperately to cling on the hope that we are in financial trouble :lol:
I really cant be arsed with any interforum discussions - leave them to their delusions.

I always said I thought it was bizarre that our owners got so much bad press (some of it deserved to be fair, but not all) when by far the worst owners in recent Premier League history were Hicks and Gillete at Anfailed (who unlike our lot were welcomed with open arms by the Scouse massive) - they managed to get the whole club repossesed by the banks !
 
Exactly.

Just look back in this thread and see posters who were very active who have now fecked off because they were talking shite.

Haven't looked at this thread in a while........how much do we owe now?
and is it true that the interest payments now total the equivalent of
1 Ronaldo per season?
( just when we could have used a couple of Ronaldos )
 
Haven't looked at this thread in a while........how much do we owe now?
and is it true that the interest payments now total the equivalent of
1 Ronaldo per season?
( just when we could have used a couple of Ronaldos )

As of the latest set of accounts:
Gross debt: £478m
Cash in bank: £113m
Net debt: £365m
Interest payments: £47m (I think this is only for 9 months rather than the annual amount?)
 
The Swiss Ramble is excellent.

Do not forget part of the debt we accrue is 'good will amortisation' of £25m per year for 15 years, which basically means the Glazers overpaid by £525m and are writing that money off over the long-term.
 
As of the latest set of accounts:
Interest payments: £47m (I think this is only for 9 months rather than the annual amount?)


must be due to dates/accounting practises as unless I'm mistaken the bond coupons are around 8.25%/annum?

Unless it's something to do with the tranche of the bonds that the club own themselves, in which case it should still be disregarded as essentially they'd be paying that portion of the interest to themselves?
 
As of the latest set of accounts:
Gross debt: £478m
Cash in bank: £113m
Net debt: £365m
Interest payments: £47m (I think this is only for 9 months rather than the annual amount?)

The full year interest bill of 47m is paid by the time the Q3 accounts are prepared- interest is paid twice yearly (Aug and Feb). No additional interest will be paid in the Q4 accounts.
The P&L account recognises interest as it is accrued. So, the first Quarter would have a charge to P&L of approx. 1/4 of yearly interest, the 3rd would carry 3/4 of yearly interest. The latter comes to about 35m (75% of 45m) and this ties in with AndersRed's 9 month figure of 34.911m.
 
More RAWK responses...



We are paying for them to own the club. We know that. We're not happy about it, but we know it to be the case. What we're saying is that, shit as it may be to be paying for the privilege of being owned by the Glazers, the club isn't going bankrupt.

In terms of the costs of the Glazers' ownership in comparison to the PLC days, here's what was paid in tax (we don't currently pay tax under the Glazers because of the debt offset) and dividends under the PLC:

2000 turnover £116m profit £16.7m tax £4.8m dividend £4.9m
2001 turnover £130m profit £21.7m tax £7.4m dividend £5.1m
2002 turnover £146m profit £32.3m tax £7.3m dividend £8.0m
2003 turnover £173m profit £39.3m tax £9.5m dividend £10.3m
2004 turnover £169m profit £27.9m tax £8.5m dividend £7.0m

An average of 28.0% of profit paid in tax per annum and 25.8% paid in dividends. That means an amount equal to 53.8% of profit left the club each year under the PLC on average. We've been getting fleeced for years. Though at least we didn't have debt on the club at that time.

I'd not seen these figures before. Doesn't this show that we're now slightly better off under the Glazers in terms of percentage of profit leaving the club than we ever were as a PLC?
 
I'd not seen these figures before. Doesn't this show that we're now slightly better off under the Glazers in terms of percentage of profit leaving the club than we ever were as a PLC?

I mentioned this a long time ago.

Christ knows where the post is but without acurate figures it was something like this:

2005: £40m Profit of which £15m went on dividends = £25m profit.
2010: £110m profit of which £50m went on paying interest = £60m profit.

Club better off, fans not so. That simple.
 
Not true, no, but the equivalent of a significant portion of him.
The question wasn't stupid at all.

But if the PLC would have taken a 25% dividend and paid 25% tax then, as the statistics above suggest they might have, from an EBITDA of £110m that's a total of £55m leaving the club, as opposed to the projected £47m under Glazer ownership.
 
Not true, no, but the equivalent of a significant portion of him.
The question wasn't stupid at all.

He has history - he wasnt asking it out of curiosity! Scaremongers like him are the ones who spreads misinformation and lies about our financial situation.
 
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