ALL issues relating to the bond issue and club finances

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Sorry TMRD but all that is an attempt at damage limitation, not bad either but nothing can cover the huge cracks that have now appeared in you and others arguements over the past few months. The debt will weigh heavily on this club for the as long as the Glazers reign and is bound to eventually affect performance, luckily they inherited a great squad

I have tried to ignore you today Crerand but it is becoming impossible.

There are NO cracks in our arguments. It is the arguments from the likes of Andersred that now have the biggest crack in them.

We have been told all along that the Glazers set up the Bond Issue in order to give them access to the "club's money". The Bond Issue was expensive to set up and is expensive to service when compared to a bank loan so the £70million carve out and the £25million dividends that it afforded the Glazers was the ONLY reason it was done.

So convincing was this argument and so feeble were our alternatives that we all woke up this morning expecting to see a whopping great £70million coming straight out of Manchester United's bank, straight into the Glazer's pockets.

But it isn't there.

Whose argument is now full of cracks?

If we look at the situation at Liverpool (I still haven't been able to get to the bottom of it but it does appear to be a case of the banks either recalling their loans or refusing them money to refinance) then it shows to me that the Glazers are smarter than H&G because they have removed us from the mercy of a bank manager's whim.

With this in mind, the Bond Issue was clearly done to benefit the Glazers - only for a completely different reason to the one we were all led to believe it was for.

I would still maintain, however, that the long-term stability provided by knowing how much you need to find and when is of benefit to fans (although I accept that it doesn't need to be there in the first place - the fact of the matter is that it is, though). We might believe that sending Manchester United into financial oblivion might get the Glazers out (a la Liverpool and H&G) and so would be a good thing but I beg to differ.

As far as I can see, these Glazer boys know what they're doing.

Despite a recession, despite the most horrendous campaign against them that UK football has ever seen and despite a slight dip in on-field performance last season, they have STILL managed to increase revenues and we have just become the first UK club to break the £100million barrier.

Your continued denial of the facts at hand and your continued insistence on churning out the same tired lines is not doing you any favours, to be honest Crerand.

If I called you names, I'd get my wrists slapped so I won't.

The words bigot, ignorant and stupid keep whirling around in my mind for some reason, though.
 
And talk a ton of shite about a topic he doesn't understand amongst a number of people actually trying to make sense of complicated results. I've been trying to get an understanding of the clubs financial position from this thread and it's being made somewhat harder by crerand making grand statements of fact about things he has no level of expertise in. He's guaranteed that the £70m would be gone. He guarantees all sorts and the number of times I've had to Mark his words are legion.

Don't read them, nobody makes you. The difference in me is I never claimed to be an expert. You have an ignore button please use it and problem is solved
 
I presume your last comment was meant to be ironic!

:lol: I've nicked that sentiment from Tolstoy, actually. I believe it's in War and Peace somewhere.

I think we all agree that United had a good year; I’m not denying that.
The point I’m making is that the debt burden is not healthy (as you agree with); we could still end up in a similar situation to Liverpool in the worst scenario in 2016, just as it could happen that we easily refinance in the best scenario.
What worries me that the Glazers seem to be doing very little to actually get rid, or at least reduce, the debts. I don’t believe that we can continue with such debts indefinitely. The Glazers will have to pay the money back at some point and that will be the judgement day…

I reckon they don't care about reducing their debt because they're American. It may be more difficult for English and European based fans to grasp the concept. As a Canadian I'm plenty used to seeing companies and government south of the border running on debt and managing it successfully. Granted, as you note, that is a risk and can go tits up at any time, although the bond issue removed much of it for the present.

Problem is, and I've seen this happen at a company I worked at, bond related fundraising can fail in the wrong business climate and then you are fecked. The only positive is that the Glazers are doing a great job building the club's brand value, which I hope will keep investors interested.
 
I have tried to ignore you today Crerand but it is becoming impossible.

There are NO cracks in our arguments. It is the arguments from the likes of Andersred that now have the biggest crack in them.

We have been told all along that the Glazers set up the Bond Issue in order to give them access to the "club's money". The Bond Issue was expensive to set up and is expensive to service when compared to a bank loan so the £70million carve out and the £25million dividends that it afforded the Glazers was the ONLY reason it was done.

So convincing was this argument and so feeble were our alternatives that we all woke up this morning expecting to see a whopping great £70million coming straight out of Manchester United's bank, straight into the Glazer's pockets.

But it isn't there.

Whose argument is now full of cracks?

If we look at the situation at Liverpool (I still haven't been able to get to the bottom of it but it does appear to be a case of the banks either recalling their loans or refusing them money to refinance) then it shows to me that the Glazers are smarter than H&G because they have removed us from the mercy of a bank manager's whim.

With this in mind, the Bond Issue was clearly done to benefit the Glazers - only for a completely different reason to the one we were all led to believe it was for.

I would still maintain, however, that the long-term stability provided by knowing how much you need to find and when is of benefit to fans (although I accept that it doesn't need to be there in the first place - the fact of the matter is that it is, though). We might believe that sending Manchester United into financial oblivion might get the Glazers out (a la Liverpool and H&G) and so would be a good thing but I beg to differ.

As far as I can see, these Glazer boys know what they're doing.

Despite a recession, despite the most horrendous campaign against them that UK football has ever seen and despite a slight dip in on-field performance last season, they have STILL managed to increase revenues and we have just become the first UK club to break the £100million barrier.

Your continued denial of the facts at hand and your continued insistence on churning out the same tired lines is not doing you any favours, to be honest Crerand.

If I called you names, I'd get my wrists slapped so I won't.

The words bigot, ignorant and stupid keep whirling around in my mind for some reason, though.

Oh I thought you had more class TMRD, you let urself down with that post. I suppose it has been a trying day for you but I am disappointed you have allowed yourself to sink to that level
 
Why are you trying to make out like these are bad results Crerand? Even Anders said they were good:

These are good results, better than I thought they would be...

The real issue is they are too good - something doesn't make sense. And that is the lack of a dividend, that's what people are trying to understand.
 
TMRD's right. The only crack that the P&L Statement has driven into anyone's argument would be the crack in anders' prediction that the Glazers would have taken £95m from the club to pay off their personal debts. It didn't happen. To date, since 2005, the Glazers have taken a sum total of £0 in carve-outs and dividends; the exact same amount of club money that's been used to pay down the Glazers' PIK notes; £0.
 
"Matchday turnover fell from £108.8m to £100.2m, which the club said was a result of it not progressing as far in the Uefa Champions League last season as it had in the season before."

What? We lost 8.6mil from playing one less game than the season before?
 
When you've said something enough times, for a long time, it's hard to let go
 
TMRD's right. The only crack that the P&L Statement has driven into anyone's argument would be the crack in anders' prediction that the Glazers would have taken £95m from the club to pay off their personal debts. It didn't happen. To date, since 2005, the Glazers have taken a sum total of £0 in carve-outs and dividends; the exact same amount of club money that's been used to pay down the Glazers' PIK notes; £0.

Weren't a load of original PIKs rolled onto the club's books in the refinancing?
 
I presume your last comment was meant to be ironic!

I think we all agree that United had a good year; I’m not denying that.
The point I’m making is that the debt burden is not healthy (as you agree with); we could still end up in a similar situation to Liverpool in the worst scenario in 2016, just as it could happen that we easily refinance in the best scenario.
What worries me that the Glazers seem to be doing very little to actually get rid, or at least reduce, the debts. I don’t believe that we can continue with such debts indefinitely. The Glazers will have to pay the money back at some point and that will be the judgement day…

I can actually accept this. (I am pretty sure that 2017 is the big year though, not 2016 but that's largely irrelevant).

It does appear to be the case that the crux of all Liverpool's current problems was their failure to qualify for the CL this season. The money that competition alone generates for a club is enough to cover any interest payments.

They messed it up last season and results so far this season would strongly suggest that a return to CL in the foreseeable future is beyond the dreams of even the most deluded Scouser (and we know that there are plenty of them around!)

This IS a similar situation to our own in that if we are not still regularly competing at the top end of the PL by 2017 then the Glazers might find it harder to refinance (I would still argue, however, that our general status is far better than Liverpool's ever was, though. The fact that we have the ability make in the region of £60million more from matchday revenues alone due to our vastly superior stadium capacity puts us on a different level straight away).

This is why a lot of this argument is of a chicken/egg variety.

My own stance has always been that the Glazers will NOT take money from Manchester United at the expense of on-field performance because it would be completely illogical as it would put their ownership in jeopardy (for the reasons we are seeing at Liverpool).

The best thing the Glazers can do is to ensure that Fergie (or whoever might be in charge by 2017) has whatever it is that they need in order to keep up as the top. Not only does this give them every chance of refinancing in 2017 but it also means that the value of their asset increases and it also means that they will be able to take their yearly dividend payments out.

Of course, just because this is the theory, doesn't guarantee that it will happen in practice, I appreciate that but what else can we rely on?

What else can any other club out there rely on?

All we can do is try to bring in and retain the best players and the best manager and invest in the facilities that they have available to them (the proposed £11.5million Carrington upgrade being an example of this) in order to give them every chance of success once they step over that line on a Saturday afternoon.

Nothing about the future is guaranteed - this is sport after all which, by its very nature, is unpredictable - but there are a number of things which can be done in order to stack the odds of success in your favour.

The evidence of the last five years would suggest that the Glazers know exactly what these things are and I see no reason to believe that the experience of running Manchester United over the last five years will suddenly now leave them less knowledgeable of what these things are - quite the opposite, in fact.
 
TMRD's right. The only crack that the P&L Statement has driven into anyone's argument would be the crack in anders' prediction that the Glazers would have taken £95m from the club to pay off their personal debts. It didn't happen. To date, since 2005, the Glazers have taken a sum total of £0 in carve-outs and dividends; the exact same amount of club money that's been used to pay down the Glazers' PIK notes; £0.

I still haven't got around to looking at the actual figures so it is true that not only have they not taken the £70million carve out but haven't even taken their £25million dividend? :eek:
 
This is going to sounds RAWKish

Your highness, Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid al Maktoum - please stand up
 
I still haven't got around to looking at the actual figures so it is true that not only have they not taken the £70million carve out but haven't even taken their £25million dividend? :eek:

:lol: Their generosity astounds, they will eventually take everything plus more. These accounts are so bad they hadn't the face to take anything I presume
 
Is it not true that the PIKs have got to be the last loans to be paid?

Yes and that is another reason why it made sense to get rid of the previous loans because it enabled the Glazers to tackle the PIKs.

That they are now clear to tackle those PIKs (because all the other loans have now gone) but are seemingly still doing absolutely nothing about them is what is so baffling.
 
I still haven't got around to looking at the actual figures so it is true that not only have they not taken the £70million carve out but haven't even taken their £25million dividend? :eek:

They haven't even taken the £6m management fee, TMRD. Not even the fecking management fee!

And let's not even get started on the sale of Carrington.

We were told the total year one (five month period) cash outflow from the club to go and repay the PIK debt would in the region of £140m.

In reality the total cash outflow has been, well, nothing. Absolutely nothing. Zero. Nada. Rien.

A big fat 0
 
That original borrowing was redeemable discount preferred securities which was short-term debt designed successfully to get around the PLC board's refusal of the first offer.
About half the original PIKs at 20%+ were folded into the overall senior debt.
 
That was going ok until you posted this guff.

datura, do you want to discuss like an adult today or do you still want to engage in little side-swipes?

Was there, or was there not, an anti-Glazer campaign on a scale that has never before been witnessed at any club in the UK earlier this year?

The point is that it was specifically intended to starve the Glazers (Manchester United, actually) of funds and so put a spanner in the business plan but the club still managed to make more money than ever before.

We can only speculate as to how different the financial situation would now be if it wasn't for the anti-Glazer campaign but I find it hard to believe that it had a positive effect on finances, don't you?
 
datura, do you want to discuss like an adult today or do you still want to engage in little side-swipes?

Was there, or was there not, an anti-Glazer campaign on a scale that has never before been witnessed at any club in the UK earlier this year?

The point is that it was specifically intended to starve the Glazers (Manchester United, actually) of funds and so put a spanner in the business plan but the club still managed to make more money than ever before.

We can only speculate as to how different the financial situation would now be if it wasn't for the anti-Glazer campaign but I find it hard to believe that it had a positive effect on finances, don't you?

Not really sure where that dig comes from but I'll not bite.

The majority of your post was fine and reasonably objective, but you couldn't help yourself fall into the over-emotive hyperbole to have a dig at the G&G campaign, which was a passive protest.

The point of it was to register the objection of fans to the current ownership, that was all, which you well know.
 
They haven't even taken the £6m management fee, TMRD. Not even the fecking management fee!

I am not completely surprised at this, to be honest. I have said all along that I didn't think that these various "fees" were cast-in-stone yearly expenses that should always be factored in when attempting to forecast future ins and outs.

Because I don't understand accounts in the way that yourself and others do, I have had to settle for mumbling something under my breath about "tax avoidance measures" and shuffling away back into my box. :lol:

And let's not even get started on the sale of Carrington.

We were told the total year one (five month period) cash outflow from the club to go and repay the PIK debt would in the region of £140m.

In reality the total cash outflow has been, well, nothing. Absolutely nothing. Zero. Nada. Rien.

A big fat 0

Zilchamundo, then?
 
About half the original PIKs at 20%+ were folded into the overall senior debt.

They weren't PIKs. The orginal debt you're talking about were the redeemable discount preferred securities which were completely repaid along with the existing bank debt in August 2006 and were replaced with the new £138m PIK loan and new bank debt.
 
I am not completely surprised at this, to be honest. I have said all along that I didn't think that these various "fees" were cast-in-stone yearly expenses that should always be factored in when attempting to forecast future ins and outs.

Because I don't understand accounts in the way that yourself and others do, I have had to settle for mumbling something under my breath about "tax avoidance measures" and shuffling away back into my box. :lol:



Zilchamundo, then?

'Fraid so. Let's not forget we were absolutely guaranteed that this would happen. Hundreds, possibly even thousands of long serving season ticket holders either completely boycotted the club or didn't renew their facilities on the back of this analysis. The club was subjected to months of negative publicity and yet we're still here in October with absolutely no evidence that any of it was true. What's going on here?

It's not the Glazers who need to be coming up with some answers tonight.
 
:lol: I've nicked that sentiment from Tolstoy, actually. I believe it's in War and Peace somewhere.



I reckon they don't care about reducing their debt because they're American. It may be more difficult for English and European based fans to grasp the concept. As a Canadian I'm plenty used to seeing companies and government south of the border running on debt and managing it successfully. Granted, as you note, that is a risk and can go tits up at any time, although the bond issue removed much of it for the present.

Problem is, and I've seen this happen at a company I worked at, bond related fundraising can fail in the wrong business climate and then you are fecked. The only positive is that the Glazers are doing a great job building the club's brand value, which I hope will keep investors interested.

Well that's the point isn't it!?!? As Alan Sugar said earlier this week, football is not like a normal business. I think the Liverpool situation has shown that no club is too big to go under if things go wrong with servicing debts.
 
Not really sure where that dig comes from but I'll not bite.

The majority of your post was fine and reasonably objective, but you couldn't help yourself fall into the over-emotive hyperbole to have a dig at the G&G campaign, which was a passive protest.

The point of it was to register the objection of fans to the current ownership, that was all, which you well know.

I think we should agree to disagree on this one datura or we'll completely sidetrack the thread.

Maybe we can get back to it another time when the thread goes quiet due to no new news coming out?
 
GCHQ, what do you think might happen if United fail to qualify for the Champions League 2015-2016?
 
an article from bbc

BBC - David Bond: Crunching the numbers at Old Trafford

Crunching the numbers at Old Trafford

Post categories: Football

David Bond | 16:59 UK time, Friday, 8 October 2010

On the face of it, Manchester United's annual financial results look terrible.

A club-record loss of £83.6m, a slowing in revenue growth due to a disappointing season on the pitch and a whole raft of expensive and complicated debt costs.

But look beyond the headline figures and United remain the most profitable and well run football club in the Premier League.

At the operating level - what accountants call EBITDA (earnings before interest, taxation, depreciation and amortisation) - United generated a "cash profit" of £100.8m, an increase of £8.7m from 2009.

And despite being knocked out of the Champions League at the quarter-final stage and finishing second in the Premier League behind Chelsea, United still managed to increase their revenues.

United's problem has never been generating cash. And under the Glazers, United have become even more successful - although critics would argue part of that is down to increasing ticket prices.

The problem with United is what the club spends that cash on. And opponents say that too much of it is spent financing debts used to buy the club in 2005.

It is certainly true that United turned a £100m operating profit last year into an £83.6m loss because of a mix of ongoing and one-off debt costs.

Manchester United reported a £80m annual lossManchester United reported a record annual loss of £83.6m

First of all there was £42.3m in annual interest charges.

In February, United refinanced their senior debt by issuing a £500m bond repayable in 2017.

This was done to fix the club's annual interest payments for a longer period to ensure financial stability. It was also done to allow the Glazers to draw cash from the club, if needed, to pay off their expensive PIK loans, which now stand at £220m and are incurring interest at a rate of 16.25% annually.

Under the terms of the bond, the Glazers can draw up to £130m from the club to pay off the PIKs - even though they were not taken out on the club.

The results show there is still £163m of cash in the club's bank account, a clear indication that no money has yet been drawn down to pay off the PIKs, but many analysts and fans fear it is only a matter of time until that happens.

On top of the £42.3m in interest charges on the club, there is another exceptional interest charge of £40.7m. This is the cost of terminating a so-called interest-rate swaps deal which the club had as part of their old bank finance arrangements. In simple terms, United hedged their interest rates but got burned because they failed to predict they would fall as low as they have in the credit crunch and economic slow down.

United have already paid around £15m of this cost and will pay the rest off over the next five or six years and - while they acknowledge it is a hefty bill - they claim it will eventually be offset by the better terms of the bond.

The second and less serious interest cost relates to a foreign exchange loss linked to the bond issue, which was offered to investors in both Britain and the United States. Because of this part of the bond will need to be repaid in dollars.

At the time when the bond was taken out, the dollar was much stronger compared to the pound ($1.62 to £1). But by 30 June, the end of United's accounting year, the dollar had weakened ($1.51 to £1) meaning that if the bond had to be repaid at that point United would have lost £19.2m.

However, United do not have to pay the bond back until 2017 and so no cash has left the business. Indeed by 2017, the dollar could be stronger than at the point the bond was issued - meaning United could actually save money.

Despite all those caveats, it remains the case that none of these charges would exist if it wasn't for the fact that United was bought by the Glazers with debt, some of it on extremely punitive terms.

Since the Glazers took over, they and the club have incurred more than £450m in interest charges and debt-related payments. To be clear, that doesn't include the actual sums borrowed, which stand today at £741m - including £220m of PIKs and the £521m club debts.

But it does include all fees to lawyers and bankers, penalties related to refinancing, loans to the Glazers, the PIKs interest and annual interest charges. To put that into context, those debt payments are £150m more than the price agreed by John Henry to buy arch-rivals Liverpooljohn henry
.

And it is this which so angers fans opposed to the Glazer regime.

Andy Green, a financial analyst and blogger on United's finances (andersred.blogspot.com), said: "It's an absolute tragedy for the fans because we have this football club which pays its own way and which through the strength of the business and through fans coming through the gates could have the cheapest seats in the League or marquee signings every year.

"Instead, almost half a billion pounds in five years has been paid to bankers, lawyers and the Glazers."

When I spoke to David Gill, the United chief executive, I put it to him that fans will be anxious when they see the club has made a record loss.

"Yes, the headline figure is a big number but you have to go back and look at what caused that," he said.

"If you strip out the one-off costs, we are still generating significant profits at the operating level to cover the bond costs going forward."

That may be so. But the big question for United now is how do they continue to grow the business?

In the five years since the Glazers took over, United's revenues increased by a staggering £127m.

And while commercially, United will continue to reap the rewards of their worldwide strategy, elsewhere it is hard to see how they can make more money.

Unless they break the collective sale arrangement in the Premier League, any major growth in television revenues will be difficult and there is little scope to increase the capacity of Old Trafford.

They could put up ticket prices again but that would be extremely controversial and unless they can guarantee winning the Champions League and Premier League each season, it is hard to see how they can emulate the growth of the last five years.

On the costs side, interest charges under the bond will be £45m a year from next year and players wages and transfers are unlikely to come down in the near future. So where is the growth going to come from?

When the Red Knights were looking at raising the money to launch a bid for the club earlier this year it was reported the Glazers would only sell for £1.5bn, arguing there was still huge potential for growth.

But if Liverpool's sale is the best and most recent example of market value then it is easy to understand why the Red Knights dropped their interest. Liverpool's operating profit last year was £35m, meaning the club would be sold for roughly 8.5 times that amount.

If that same equation was used for United (operating profit £100m), it would value the club at £850m - way short of the Glazers' supposed asking price.

Comparsions with Liverpool are perhaps a bit unfair. They are in a desperate mess in the boardroom, out of the Champions League and in the relegation zone of the Premier League. Despite having similar wage costs to United, they generate a fraction of their revenues.

But even if one uses the more generous multiple of 10 times operating profit then United's value would still only be £1bn - £500m less than the Glazers' price.

The latest financial results will only strengthen the resolve of those United fans calling for the Glazers to sell up and move on. But the prospect of a sale at Old Trafford still seems a long way off.
 
Well that's the point isn't it!?!? As Alan Sugar said earlier this week, football is not like a normal business. I think the Liverpool situation has shown that no club is too big to go under if things go wrong with servicing debts.

Well to be fair the situation I mentioned happened at a telecoms company a few years after the telecoms bubble burst, hardly normal business either..

I don't think United is in the same boat as Liverpool as the club doesn't owe any large debt to a lender bank, who can either offer you changed terms or extensions or as we expect will happen next week, call the debt in and take control if you can't pay what's due. That said, I don't find Liverpool particularly relevant, United are on a different level commercially and fiscally and have been for some time.

There are risks but the club won't be facing them until the bonds are due. In the interim, things seem manageable.
 
If I was the Glazers I'd be concerned that they are wholly reliant on commercial income to drive growth in the business. I know people disagree on the potential.

If I remember correctly, you were on here the other day, warning of the dangers of relying too much on Prize Money.

Now you are expressing concern about the over-reliance on Commercial Revenues.

We all know that the very first thing the Glazers did at the earliest opportunity was to increase ticket prices (therefore Matchday Revenues) and we all know how much you disagree with that.

What revenues does that leave us with? TV revenues, as far as I can think of.

But out of all the revenues, TV revenues are the one thing that are completely beyond our control and must surely therefore be the very worst revenues to rely on?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Anders. You sure know your onions when it comes to financial analysis but thank god you don't run the business! :)
 
Rood (formerly Roodboy) freely admits that he's not a qualified financial analyst and yet he was able to come up with the theory that the Glazers might well have bought a significant portion of the PIK debt when the market crashed in late 2008.

Do we not think the leaders of MUST/Andersred should have at the very least have mentioned to the fan base that a significant PIK purchase by the Glazers back in 2008 was a possibility and as such their analysis might not be entirely accurate? Is that not what you'd expect from people who never tire of telling us that they have the best interests of the fans and the club at heart?

Maybe it's their own interests and values that they really care about.
 
Well to be fair the situation I mentioned happened at a telecoms company a few years after the telecoms bubble burst, hardly normal business either..

I don't think United is in the same boat as Liverpool as the club doesn't owe any large debt to a lender bank, who can either offer you changed terms or extensions or as we expect will happen next week, call the debt in and take control if you can't pay what's due. That said, I don't find Liverpool particularly relevant, United are on a different level commercially and fiscally and have been for some time.

There are risks but the club won't be facing them until the bonds are due. In the interim, things seem manageable.

Bloody hell, Dr Dwayne. Correct me if I am wrong but I have hardly ever seen you in these threads before today but you talk more sense on the issue than just about anyone else on here.

Where have you been all these months?
 
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