ALL issues relating to the bond issue and club finances

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TheMancRedDevil said:
It is relevant because Anders just came along and pointed out how stuffed we might be if we had a couple of "mid-table seasons".

Which clubs are in a better situation to fill ten league places above us?

Even if we don't take it to Anders' level of nonsense, what if we finished fifth for a couple of seasons? Which four teams are better equipped than us?

Off the top of my head, the only one is Arsenal. I am not entirely sure about the situations with Spurs and Villa.

So. Is the "if we don't achieve success, we're doomed" argument based on foundations which are realistic or is it based on a pile of doom-mongering crap from an expert in the field?
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You appear to have missed the point, which is that they are not run the same way as us so any comparisons financially are meaningless and just trying to put some positive spin on our situation (ie the opposite of what you are accusing Anders of).

He didn't say we were 'doomed'. All he highlighted is how a decline in performance on the pitch could possibly hit our finances.
 
datura said:
Excellent, another stupid smiley.

I did read your post and there was no reference to the FFP regulations in it, or the post you were responding too, hence why I commented. Maybe you should have made yourself a little clearer by actually referring to them in your post as I am not psychic to your intentions.

As I also said, discussing the FFPs in relation to other clubs should be done in the proper thread in the football forum.
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I think you must have had a hard day or something datura.

The post of mine you quoted (scroll up and read it) actually said:-

"When people worry about our future success, it is the likes of Manchester City and Chelsea who, were it not for the FFP Regs, would provide our most serious threat."

In other words, yes, if things carried on as they are and Mansour and Abramovich are able to give their managers £100-200million per season to spend on players, the future would look pretty bleak. Not just for us but football as a whole, I would suggest - but that's definitely another tangent.

I am not really discussing the FFPs, merely trying to respond to Anders' new slant of "we'd be fecked if we won nowt" line and trying to establish who, exactly, will be standing in our way to the silverware that would give rise to such a scenario in the coming years.
 
TheMancRedDevil said:
I think you must have had a hard day or something datura.

The post of mine you quoted (scroll up and read it) actually said:-

"When people worry about our future success, it is the likes of Manchester City and Chelsea who, were it not for the FFP Regs, would provide our most serious threat."

In other words, yes, if things carried on as they are and Mansour and Abramovich are able to give their managers £100-200million per season to spend on players, the future would look pretty bleak. Not just for us but football as a whole, I would suggest - but that's definitely another tangent.

I am not really discussing the FFPs, merely trying to respond to Anders' new slant of "we'd be fecked if we won nowt" line and trying to establish who, exactly, will be standing in our way to the silverware that would give rise to such a scenario in the coming years.
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No, the initial post I responded to was:

TheMancRedDevil said:
If you want the definition of unviable. Go and check on how much profit Manchester City and Chelsea made this year!
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ciderman9000000 said:
This is the kind of ignorant thinking that we're trying to guide the fanbase away from, Crerand, please don't say thing like this; think before you post, stupid remarks like that will help no-one.
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Out of respct to GB's request I wont respond to this post
 
datura said:
No, the initial post I responded to was:
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Ok. Fair enough but I thought that there had been sufficient posts between that one and the one where you went on about not being a mind-reader or something for you to understand why I specifically mentioned Chelsea and City and why their financial situation is relevant to us and our future chances of remaining competitive.

I can't actually believe that I have had to spell it out to you, to be honest. You were giving me accountancy lessons last night.
 
TheMancRedDevil said:
Ok. Fair enough but I thought that there had been sufficient posts between that one and the one where you went on about not being a mind-reader or something for you to understand why I specifically mentioned Chelsea and City and why their financial situation is relevant to us and our future chances of remaining competitive.

I can't actually believe that I have had to spell it out to you, to be honest. You were giving me accountancy lessons last night.
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You can't say that we will maintain our current level of performance just because of the effect of the FFP regs on 2 sides (which at the moment no one knows how they will affect teams). It's a rather tenuous argument at best.

Football is generally cyclical in nature and it is unlikely that we will maintain the same level of success as we've enjoyed for an extended period, particularly given the imminent retirement of our best manager of all time and some key players.
 
andersred said:
Looking at the long-term viability, what is interesting is how even in these days of a "global football industry" clubs like United are so financially reliant on doing well on the pitch.

Look at the CL TV money for last season. We earned £14m more than Liverpool because:

a) We got to the Qs, they didn't make it out of the group stage
b) We won our domestic league the previous year and they came 2nd.

Those are pretty fine margins worth 14% of our EBITDA.

Matchday income at United last season will probably be slightly down on 2008/09, purely because we played two fewer home games (inc a CL semi). Those two games are equivalent to a quarter of our annual transfer budget.

Like GCHQ says, United won't go bust, but heaven help us if in a post Fergie world we have a couple of mid-table seasons.
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It's key isn't it. Keeping revenues going at recent historic levels with costs contained depsite not being able to keep the same level of success on the pitch. Arsenal seem to have achieved it. I think it's all about keeping the expectation there, qualifying for the ECL, even if trophies aren't an end product and playing entertaining and generally attractive football. I'm not sure we can do that with the current set up.
 
datura said:
You can't say that we will maintain our current level of performance just because of the effect of the FFP regs on 2 sides (which at the moment no one knows how they will affect teams). It's a rather tenuous argument at best.

Football is generally cyclical in nature and it is unlikely that we will maintain the same level of success as we've enjoyed for an extended period, particularly given the imminent retirement of our best manager of all time and some key players.
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The FFP Regs are designed to get football teams only spending what they earn and remove the effect of billionaire sugar-daddies. That much we do know. How it will work in practice, remains to be seen. But, unless we ourselves had a billionaire sugar-daddy with as much or more money than Mansour (who I believe is closer to being a dollar trillionaire!) then everything being argued at the moment would still apply under any ownership regime we might have at United, wouldn't it?

If the FFP Regs do prove to be a success then it provides a more level playing field and the club that can bring in the most money has as good a chance of being competitive as anyone, doesn't it?

FFP Regs or no FFP Regs, I think there'd have to be a feck up of epic proportions to end up mid-table as Anders was suggesting.

I hear what you're saying about football being cyclical and it being unlikely that we will maintain the success for an extended period and every year for the last twenty years or so, I have gone into the season with a fear that this might be the season when the wheels finally fall off but it has yet to happen.

Of course, we have Fergie's retirement on the horizon and this is the biggest threat to our wheels but we can only hope that whoever comes in doesn't end up doing a Wilf McGuinness and we have to have some faith that we will bring in a top-class manager and that the squad Fergie leaves behind will be strong enough to give the new man every chance of getting off to a good start in his new job. I don't see why it is necessarily going to mean a downturn in our fortunes.

When it comes to the future - there's always more than one way of viewing it and my glass is always half-full.
 
andersred said:
Matchday income at United last season will probably be slightly down on 2008/09, purely because we played two fewer home games (inc a CL semi). Those two games are equivalent to a quarter of our annual transfer budget.
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Two and sixpence? :eek:
 
ralphie88 said:
You've been drinking again haven't you topper. Sangria?
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yep and been employing my paint spray cans on the walls of my local massive fan saying I think Uncle Mal is wunnerful - haven't done the toms yet - he's hiding but I'll get the cnut - the Spaniards do some luverly toms ... what about you Ralphie whats the news on the United Underground - still manning the barricades ;)
 
I notice on the MUST websites the Red Knights have been in great voice recently with a quote that should be right up your street ralphie...

"Let change happen through people power. Bring on the revolution. If it does not happen naturally, we may need some legislation to encourage the revolution."
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:lol: Is it just me or does the last part of that really let the first bit down quite badly?
 
topper said:
yep and been employing my paint spray cans on the walls of my local massive fan saying I think Uncle Mal is wunnerful - haven't done the toms yet - he's hiding but I'll get the cnut - the Spaniards do some luverly toms ... what about you Ralphie whats the news on the United Underground - still manning the barricades ;)
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Still supporting the club topper, still supporting the club.
 
"Let change happen through people power. Bring on the revolution. If it does not happen naturally, we may need some legislation to encourage the revolution."
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TheMancRedDevil said:
:lol: Is it just me or does the last part of that really let the first bit down quite badly?
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:lol: is that for real?

"We shall fight on the beaches,
we shall fight on the landing grounds,
we shall fight in the fields and in the streets,
we shall fight in the hills;
we shall never surrender!
If surrender looks likely we may need some legislation to encourage screaming and running away a bit."
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ralphie88 said:
You should have come to Valencia. Although some of the chants would probably have made you blush.
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I had a ticket but through some family illness had to cancel - I presume that the chants were about Uncle Malc and how you wanted to... er make love to him...


PS it is a family forum after all :rolleyes:
 
topper said:
I had a ticket but through some family illness had to cancel - I presume that the chants were about Uncle Malc and how you wanted to... er make love to him...


PS it is a family forum after all :rolleyes:
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Oooh lots of nasty chants. You should have heard the stuff they were singing about Tevez too. It would have made a monkey blush.
 
GCHQ said:
The consensus is that this didn't occur before the end of the financial year (June 30 2010) but the post balance sheet notes, covering the period from July 01 up to the announcement on Friday, will reveal whether or not it occured between then and now.
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I'd say it's a racing certainty that they took money out to pay down the PIKS on or about 31st July. The sum will, of course, be close to the magic £80M - cue shit storm - 'Ronaldo money used to pay down Glazer's debts' - 'Get rid of Man Utd's version of H&G'.
 
peterstorey said:
I'd say it's a racing certainty that they took money out to pay down the PIKS on or about 31st July. The sum will, of course, be close to the magic £80M - cue shit storm - 'Ronaldo money used to pay down Glazer's debts' - 'Get rid of Man Utd's version of H&G'.
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Given that Andersred, MUST and the others have been saying that this will happen for the last 9-10 months or so, the Glazer's opponents have actually done them a big favour by psychologically preparing everyone for the "news".

The press will undoubtedly do exactly what you have said there. Whether it comes as the enormous shock to United fans that they are hoping for remains to be seen however.

It has actually got to the point where if the money does NOT come out at some point in the next 12 months' worth of accounts, most of us will be totally confused as to what the hell they're up to.
 
TheMancRedDevil said:
Every silver lining has a grey cloud eh, Anders? :)

The rest of what you're saying there is a bit "No shit, Sherlock" with a smattering of the usual scaremongering to be honest.

It has long been established that doing everything in their power to ensure that we remain at the top end of football is crucial to the Glazers' business-plan. Only a bunch of numpties would have suggested otherwise.

How are your mates doing by the way? They've been unusually quiet of late.
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Blimey, it was just a point about the sensitivity of income to playing performance, ask a Liverpool supporter. It's about risk.

I wasn't trying to scaremonger. Apologies if it came over that way.
 
peterstorey said:
I'd say it's a racing certainty that they took money out to pay down the PIKS on or about 31st July. The sum will, of course, be close to the magic £80M - cue shit storm - 'Ronaldo money used to pay down Glazer's debts' - 'Get rid of Man Utd's version of H&G'.
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Don't know if the Ronaldo money has gone stateside yet but if hasn't it wont be long until it does. They know whenever it goes to pay their debt the press and opposing fans will have a field day, the Green and Gold will become even stronger. Perhaps if we had a successful season last term the reaction would not have been as bad as it is going to be now, but for the Glazers their toxic debt is more important than the club
 
TheMancRedDevil said:
Given that Andersred, MUST and the others have been saying that this will happen for the last 9-10 months or so, the Glazer's opponents have actually done them a big favour by psychologically preparing everyone for the "news"..
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He, he, there will be an even bigger shitstorm and massive 'I tole you so you fule' with burning of effigies. No wonder they kept it quiet.
 
TheMancRedDevil said:
Given that Andersred, MUST and the others have been saying that this will happen for the last 9-10 months or so, the Glazer's opponents have actually done them a big favour by psychologically preparing everyone for the "news".

The press will undoubtedly do exactly what you have said there. Whether it comes as the enormous shock to United fans that they are hoping for remains to be seen however.

It has actually got to the point where if the money does NOT come out at some point in the next 12 months' worth of accounts, most of us will be totally confused as to what the hell they're up to.
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Some of us are above the underhand methods of the Glazers TMRD. As I said a successful season last time might have softened the blow but that didn't happen
 
At least the scousers have the balls and the wherewithal to dump their blood suckers!! Not like you bunch of dwarf loving apologists on here-
 
andersred said:
Blimey, it was just a point about the sensitivity of income to playing performance, ask a Liverpool supporter. It's about risk.

I wasn't trying to scaremonger. Apologies if it came over that way.
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Come on then Anders. Do you think the results on Friday will show that the dividend has been taken?

And are you going to be open and honest about why the very significant accounting loss is meaningless due to the reasons which I've alluded to? You don't want me badgering you on your blog about goodwill amortisation again.
 
Crerand Legend said:
Some of us are above the underhand methods of the Glazers TMRD. As I said a successful season last time might have softened the blow but that didn't happen
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It wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference either way.

Last season the G&G campaign was in full voice and that was after we had won the three previous PLs and had reached two CL Finals (winning one).

Look at the crap some people are coming out with this season already because we're a lowly third in the league after seven matches.
 
andersred said:
Blimey, it was just a point about the sensitivity of income to playing performance, ask a Liverpool supporter. It's about risk.

I wasn't trying to scaremonger. Apologies if it came over that way.
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Oh, come on Anders. It was definitely a, "Just saying..." kind of post.

The ironic thing about what you posted is that the two things many fans hate about the Glazers the most (behind the debt, obviously) is the ticket price rises and what they see as "whoring out the brand".

But these are two things which make us less vulnerable to the financial blow that might come as a result of a bad season or two.

Presumably, a fan-based ownership would reduce ticket prices and stop "whoring out the brand" and so our ability to stay afloat would be almost totally reliant on Prize Money and TV revenues (which are largely interlinked anyway).
 
TheMancRedDevil said:
It wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference either way.

Last season the G&G campaign was in full voice and that was after we had won the three previous PLs and had reached two CL Finals (winning one).

Look at the crap some people are coming out with this season already because we're a lowly third in the league after seven matches.
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If we had won PL or CL or if I may dream both it would have made the Ronaldo money transfer alot smoother. The anti Glazer feeling will snowball once they take this money to yankee land
 
Crerand Legend said:
If we had won PL or CL or if I may dream both it would have made the Ronaldo money transfer alot smoother. The anti Glazer feeling will snowball once they take this money to yankee land
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So, if we win the PL and/or CL this season, will you shut up?

No. You won't. We'll be right back here next season having exactly the same conversation.

Ronaldo's gone Crerand. He went a long time ago now. Time to move on. It was good while it lasted but all good things come to an end. The future's bright if you look in the right places.
 
TheMancRedDevil said:
So, if we win the PL and/or CL this season, will you shut up?

No. You won't. We'll be right back here next season having exactly the same conversation.

Ronaldo's gone Crerand. He went a long time ago now. Time to move on. It was good while it lasted but all good things come to an end. The future's bright if you look in the right places.
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Keep your hair on, I was making a general observation on how most would have less bothered about the Ronaldo money had we been successful not taking any personal satisfaction in it. He is gone yes and we move on yes, the future? Only god he know.
 
GCHQ said:
Come on then Anders. Do you think the results on Friday will show that the dividend has been taken?

And are you going to be open and honest about why the very significant accounting loss is meaningless due to the reasons which I've alluded to? You don't want me badgering you on your blog about goodwill amortisation again.
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If you want me to guess, I'd say they haven't taken it. I only say that because I would have expected at least some minor warming up of the press if they had taken it. But maybe they just don't care about the press.

On the g/w amortisation, I hereby swear to continue (as I always have) not to include it in any "profit" or "loss" figures.

As we are doing requests GCHQ, make me a price (£2m spread say) on pre-exceptional EBITDA. I can make back my pint (incidentally I've been offered some Bursapor home tickets so I can buy you a beer then).
 
andersred said:
If you want me to guess, I'd say they haven't taken it. I only say that because I would have expected at least some minor warming up of the press if they had taken it. But maybe they just don't care about the press.

On the g/w amortisation, I hereby swear to continue (as I always have) not to include it in any "profit" or "loss" figures.

As we are doing requests GCHQ, make me a price (£2m spread say) on pre-exceptional EBITDA. I can make back my pint (incidentally I've been offered some Bursapor home tickets so I can buy you a beer then).
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That's my guess too. If that is indeed how things turn out on Friday then every Sports hack across the land is going to be ringing you at five minutes past eleven aksing why the dividend hasn't been taken yet. So what's your explanation going to be?

I know you won't include the g/w amortisation in any ''profit'' and ''loss'' figures but what I'd like to see from you Anders is an effort to explain to people, including your journalist pals, why that g/w amortisation shouldn't be included. If the dividend hasn't been taken, then the fallback position in terms of negative coverage of the results is going to be the significant accounting loss. We can all see the headlines now. ''United (mufplc) announce c.£80m loss, look what happens when they can't sell a Ronaldo for £80m every year!'' Let's not forget the other c.£70m of either irrelevant non-cash losses/costs or exceptional refinancing costs. Maybe I'm asking too much from you there so g/w amortisation would be a welcome starting point.

Thinking of ending the old boycott already eh? Poor move I'd say. You'd be better off sticking it out for at least this season.

I will plump for pre-exceptional EBITDA of £94m, 93-95.
 
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