Carrick would thrive in the middle of a 3 man mid but it won't happen because we have Rooney and RVP. One of them would have to be dropped or played wide. I can see him being slowly phased out and replaced by Fellaini.
Alas poor Carrick...WTF has happened?
- Thread starter Carl
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I commented on this interview after the game but took something completely different out of it.
When asked if they were to blame, you could see he desperately wanted to say something. My guess is "do you think we want to play these sort of tactics?" I think the whole team is pretty fed up of being told to play the way they are told, nothing through the middle, all out wide and they just don't want to take the fall for it.
The Sky Sports News interview, where Carrick turned down the chance to say Moyes was the man to restore our confidence, was telling.
The players are going through the motions: obeying without any belief in what they are being asked to do. Carrick is trying to play the Moyes way but his lack of faith in it makes him more nervy about winning, which makes him play less confidently. Moyes is the issue.
Well I suppose it depends on whether you believe that Moyes has told Carrick to never pass the ball through the middle, or whether Carrick doesn't have the confidence and would prefer to roll it out wide to the unmarked player. I know which one I believe.
I believe the Fulham game told us everything we need to know. Get it wide cross it in. It didn't matter who it was or what their strengths were, Januzaj, Mata, Hernandez, all completely unnatural to them yet they followed orders and "got to the byline" and put the ball across.
How is any player supposed to have faith or believe in those sorts of tactics?
Not sure whether you watch United or just enjoy bashing Moyes but Januzaj and Mata certainly do not hug the touchline...
The Fulham game was a bit of a one-off really. We still scored two goals, so if we'd have defended competently then nobody would have batted an eye lid. We've not seen such a reliance on crossing since then. As Carragher said on the analysis of the game, had we tried to play through those 10 players in the middle of the pitch, and lost the ball constantly without creating, the fans would have just complained about that instead.
Besides, I don't get why United supporters of all people are suddenly turning their nose up at crossing from out wide. We've dominated for years playing this way. We've probably scored most of our goals from crosses this season. This team has been built by Fergie to play this way. The likes of Michael Carrick weren't weren't bought for their creativity, he's made a living here off passing the ball out wide to the likes of Ronaldo, or just keeping it tidy and allowing Scholes to play the passes forward.
I'm talking specifically the Fulham game.
We're against it because the two players who naturally get out wide and cross it in are both severely substandard at doing it and the two better options are completely wasted to ask to do that role, as is our next best wide man Kagawa.
Yet Moyes just isn't dynamic enough to play those players to their strengthens. He's trying to shoe horn them into his own preferred tactics and it's not working.
Regarding the Fulham match the performance was clearly laughable before they scored the equaliser to compound our misery. There's a world of difference between using fast wide men to get into dangerous positions for a cross and swinging a hopeful diagonal in from 35 yards away. They're not comparable.
And yes we have always attacked down the wings, but it's not been our only port of call like it has been in our worst performances this season. It has frankly been quite pathetic.
I wasn't the biggest fan of the way Ferguson set us up over the last couple of years but we were at least compact in many big games. Last night (and this season Liverpool-City-Chelsea) we were nothing. Wide open, huge distances between players, Van Persie stuck in a poaching role, slow, pointless possession etc etc.
The players are struggling. Set them up in a 4-3-3 like Ferguson did at times and at least get us some possession further up the pitch. This will help Carrick and Cleverley no end.
I agree, I'd go 4-5-1 in the big games. You still can't define our play by the Fulham game though. Allowing the likes of Kagawa and Mata to drift inside indicates that we do intend to try and play through the middle. Unfortunately it's proved a pointless exercise at times as even Mata is having to resort to crossing or playing it back out wide at times. I thought we'd cracked it against Palace when we had midfielders running into the box and strikers dropping deep, it created openings. Then last night happened.
The Fulham game was a very strange one but something like that had been on the cards for a while. Van Persie has been left completely isolated all season in a way he wasn't last year, or at Arsenal. I can't believe he's just decided not to get involved because he's thrown his toys out the pram, he's been told to stay in the "danger areas". For me, the whole setup stinks of what I perceive to be Moyes' extremely simplistic approach this season. He's been in the game for years, we hear all these stories about how in tune with the modern game he is. So why does he keep setting us up like it's 1990?
Carrick made 140 odd passes the other day when he had options ahead of him in Mata and Rooney. It wasn't brilliant flowiing stuff but it was patient. It was probably the way we should've set up. Last night there was very little for him to aim for. RVP marked out the game between the centre backs, Rooney being shit, and two men miles out on the flanks. Even if you get the ball out to them, you need a miracle to find somebody in the middle. It's appalling and is seemingly getting worse.
Moyes just isn't learning. I wouldn't be surprised if we now change our approach for the home game and try a narrow patient build up with no width at all, despite us needing to stretch the play and score at least 3 goals at home. Something we've done 4 times this year in all competitions
Surely the way he played last season answers that question? He didn't get nominated for POTY by just playing it out wide all the time.
I was at the Fulham game and it was the poorest United performance I've ever witnessed. Even at 2-1 up I said to my Dad that the win would just paper over the cracks of what was a completely inept performance. It's a myth that nobody would have batted an eyelid had the result been different but the performance the same. We've struggled to break down teams defending deep before, and usually in games like that it's the defending team that bears the brunt of the criticism, like Chelsea against West Ham. It's unusual for a team with 70+% possession and as many shots on goal as we had to be so heavily criticised but the manner of the performance deserved it. Zero variation. Completely clueless, abject and devoid of ideas.
United fans aren't sudden anti-crossing it's the fact that we see little else. These types of low percentage cross we tend to see under Moyes are hopeful whipped in aerial crosses that defenders mostly clear with ease, and that don't suit our strikers rather than low crosses along the ground and cut backs that actually involve the winger picking someone out or playing the ball into a bit of space for someone to run onto. City's football has largely been lauded this season and they've scored a lot of goals from intelligent crosses/cutbacks rather than useless punts into the air.
As for your last point about Carrick, his forward passes last season were a joy to watch. Often taking out the oppositions entire midfield with one pass to our forwards. He's capable of a lot more than keeping it tidy and it's imperative that he does when we don't have a Scholes next to him or we offer nothing through the middle. Him sitting deep as f*ck supposedly protecting the back 4 is totally underutilising him.
My only point would be that it's literally pointless singling out individuals and dubbing them old or finished. Barring Januzaj Mata and Fellaini as well as Rooney and Welbeck's productivity every first teamer has been performing significantly worse than they did for us last year. 10-15 players don't all turn to shit overnight. Being led, unmotivated and badly prepared by a manager out of his depth? Yeah that could've caused this.
Carrick was very good last game, but this match was one of the weakest I have ever seen of him. The sad bit though is how age has gotten to Vidic, Rio and Evra. Some years ago they were the defence in the world, now they are all well over it.
I can't stand when we lose because some of the caf turns on one another but the quality of the posts is always 10/10.
Carrick has been poor this season, some unusual problems with distribution at times but has made a lot of important interceptions. I'd hate to think how little of the ball we'd have had this season without him because we make few tackles overall as a team.
I used to like Carrick, I think he's shit now... He is one annoying inertia in our team. While people think he is essential, he might very well be damaging for the potential football we could play. I appreciate what he's done in the past though. Btw, we might not have better players than him in that position but that says a lot about the quality of our squad.
Well no it doesn't in my opinion. I just don't think Moyes is stupid enough to prevent him doing what he was so good at. On the flipside, we've seen how much of a confidence player Carrick is. When he's out of form he looks nothing like the player of last season. That's what we're seeing now.
Carrick is 33 next summer. This is old for a footballer. We tend to think that players arent that old at 33 being United fans because of the longevity of some of our players.
The reality is that many players struggle after 30. Carrick should only be a squad player from now on. Also I think we need to only have one of Fletcher or Carrick on the books next season. The reality is we cant have two of the CM spots taken by players who cant player every game.
The reality is that many players struggle after 30. Carrick should only be a squad player from now on. Also I think we need to only have one of Fletcher or Carrick on the books next season. The reality is we cant have two of the CM spots taken by players who cant player every game.
Bar Scholes he has barely had decent partner for any proper length of time.
More time for scapegoats.
The main problem with our midfield yesterday was not Carrick or Cleverley but the complete lack of penetration on the wings combined with tactics of always attacking on the flanks. Ludicrously stupid.
We could genuinely start winning a lot of games just by having the balls to drop a striker and play 3 proper midfielders.
The main problem with our midfield yesterday was not Carrick or Cleverley but the complete lack of penetration on the wings combined with tactics of always attacking on the flanks. Ludicrously stupid.
We could genuinely start winning a lot of games just by having the balls to drop a striker and play 3 proper midfielders.
I'm not sure what this means? It's not just Carrick that is consistently passing it out wide, it's everyone. It's a very deliberate and obvious tactic. Every time van Persie touched the ball he passed it out wide...do you really think that's his natural game? I don't have one of those passing direction chart things that people post on here but I imagine of all the players, Carrick probably passed it through the middle more than anyone.
And as punishment Moyes sent him to do the post match interview.
Like I said before Carrick hasn't been his best this season and could do more, certainly he could be quicker on the ball. But I can't see how people can really criticism much of his passing when it's hardly like he's turning up obvious passes.
We've got such a massive problem in games where there's just no way we can get up the pitch because out wide we often go with players who won't/don't carry the ball forward and often pass back before they will forwards and we've got a centre that is just not playing in a way that helps anyone at all. Yesterday as we've seen before as soon as we got on the ball both Clev/Rooney were no where to be seen and by the time they've come short we've lost momentum and they literally come back to pass it backwards or wide if its Rooney and we're back to square one.
We can't build there and subsequently Carrick can't find those penetrative passes because we don't play with any intent except to get it wide, wait for an overlap and hook it in. I mean you could swap Carrick out for Pirlo and you'd have the same problem. Creating attacks isn't just about someone having the vision/bottle to play a pass, you actually need players making themselves available, making runs of the ball, opening space for others etc.
We've got such a massive problem in games where there's just no way we can get up the pitch because out wide we often go with players who won't/don't carry the ball forward and often pass back before they will forwards and we've got a centre that is just not playing in a way that helps anyone at all. Yesterday as we've seen before as soon as we got on the ball both Clev/Rooney were no where to be seen and by the time they've come short we've lost momentum and they literally come back to pass it backwards or wide if its Rooney and we're back to square one.
We can't build there and subsequently Carrick can't find those penetrative passes because we don't play with any intent except to get it wide, wait for an overlap and hook it in. I mean you could swap Carrick out for Pirlo and you'd have the same problem. Creating attacks isn't just about someone having the vision/bottle to play a pass, you actually need players making themselves available, making runs of the ball, opening space for others etc.
There's a heat map I found which documents what you're talking about Brwned. I'll post it later but it's quite damming in terms of how our play has changed in the space of a season
Hard to argue with that.
Basically setting up negatively doesnt lend to good transitions.
He should still last a few years. He's not the type of player who relies on energy, so I don't see the problem. His main strengths are his positional awareness and composure on the ball, that's not something you lose quickly with age. It's dangerous to draw conclusions from a season where everything is going tits up.
Carrick is playing the same as he ever has. He just doesn't have a maestro like Scholes to play alongside him - instead he has to put up with dross like Cleverley and Fellaini.
The way Carrick played against Olympiacos was, pretty much, like a destroyer. He did a good job winning the ball back from the opposition, but he just sat deep and rarely ventured forward. That would have been fine had he had options to pass to, but against Olympiacos, everyone was far away from Carrick and/or not willing to receive the ball from him. Valencia almost always lost the ball whenever he was pressed by Holebas, so Carrick stopped giving the ball to him unless he was clearly open whilst next to the touchline. Young was playing fairly safe when on the ball even though his movement and positioning in the first half was decent (the second half was dreadful from him, however). Rooney and van Persie were too far away for Carrick to play at a fast tempo, and once Rooney started to drop deep, Olympiacos were settled into their shape, and no one else made themselves available for the ball. Cleverley was too passive to play in central midfield, of course. Even if he made himself available, he didn't assert himself on the pitch and had the attitude of a bus passenger.
There were so many instances when I saw Carrick receive the ball with no one getting into the gaps in the middle for him to pass to. Carrick, of course, didn't take risks by passing to players who were already closed down (instructions from Moyes and the coaches, maybe?), so he played passively, on the ball. Compare that to last season, when he was more adventurous with players positioning themselves better than nowadays.
One can blame Carrick for being passive and gutless, but if his options aren't readily available, and he gave the ball to them only for the opposition to win it back quickly (as was the case with Valencia), Carrick would have been criticised for not passing it to the right players.
There were so many instances when I saw Carrick receive the ball with no one getting into the gaps in the middle for him to pass to. Carrick, of course, didn't take risks by passing to players who were already closed down (instructions from Moyes and the coaches, maybe?), so he played passively, on the ball. Compare that to last season, when he was more adventurous with players positioning themselves better than nowadays.
One can blame Carrick for being passive and gutless, but if his options aren't readily available, and he gave the ball to them only for the opposition to win it back quickly (as was the case with Valencia), Carrick would have been criticised for not passing it to the right players.
I highly doubt that, we're talking about the caf where at times a good clear win has its few negative aspects talked about.Winning against Fulham with that tactic on the day would have created a lot of criticism.
Another outing where he looks as if he is scared out there on the pitch.
Most irritating aspect is to watch him not even attempt 50-50's challanges.
Most irritating aspect is to watch him not even attempt 50-50's challanges.
Ludicrous MOTM award. Possibly our worst player. I wouldn't be too disappointed to see him move on in the summer. We need more dynamism in there.
Err, he had a great block where he threw himself into a challenge in the first half.
He was mediocre for me today. Nothing special, but not awful.
He was one of the best players on the pitch. He played with composure and many of our best moves involved quick one-touch passes from him. Michael Owen had him as man of the match, although that may be a bit much.
Yup. I thought he played like a fanny today. Man of the match, apparently.
Was very average today. Dont know how he got the motm award. Didnt close down his man, preferring to stand a mile away with his hands out like a gimp pretending to close down.