Academy under "Root and Branch Review" - Woodward

Chesterlestreet said:
Well, you're entitled to your opinion. I think that's pretty much a copout myself: He's in charge of the football, formally, as well as the money side. Hiring managers, sanctioning (and negotiating) transfers, overseeing the general direction of the club - that's supposed to be his responsibility. The only indication we can possibly point to when trying to assess his performance has to be what the team deliver on the pitch - what else is there?
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The performance on the pitch is what people are, rightly, judging van Gaal on though? Are we going to get rid of the CEO (or whatever he is) every time we get rid of the manager? That doesn't seem sensible to me.
As far as I can see he's in charge of negotiating the transfers but not the guy actually coming up with the targets (I hope not at least). Then he's been doing an awful lot of work on the commercial side in terms of sponsors etc. And it looks like he's doing pretty well there. I don't think much of his work can be seen on the pitch, personally (aside from whether or not he succeeds in bringing in a given player).
Chesterlestreet said:
We can just decide that we don't know what he's actually doing - and treat his presence as that of an inscrutably deity - but that seems somewhat extreme.
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I'm not. I think his, at times (especially the start of his tenure), open-mouthed style is a bit too much. I just don't see the point in criticizing him for something I don't think he has a lot of say in. He's not a director of football after all.
Chesterlestreet said:
The academy stuff is fresh news. People have been speculating about it for months, not knowing anything beyond the fact that McClair was never replaced. He may very well be on the right track regarding the academy - nothing better if it's the case. But we don't know the details there either (a common theme, it would seem).
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Again, and this was my initial point, I think people are way too quick to say something is shit even though there's a complete lack of details one way or the other.
 
LawCharltonBest said:
Did he say new academy structure/staff would be announced in the "coming days" or "sometime soon"

I have seen both quoted
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He definitely said to expect some news in the coming days, not necessarily that a full announcement would be made then.
 
Maagge said:
The performance on the pitch is what people are, rightly, judging van Gaal on though? Are we going to get rid of the CEO (or whatever he is) every time we get rid of the manager? That doesn't seem sensible to me.
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No, that wouldn't be sensible.

The problem with Woodward is that he doesn't have anything to fall back on in terms of why we, as fans, should trust him. That's the issue with him. Take a hypothetical scenario: Remove Fergie from the equation after 2000 or thereabouts (when he seriously considered leaving the game), leave Gill in place, and assume the success of the team remains roughly the same under - say - three or four managers who perform to different levels under slightly different circumstances: Now, that would make Gill a man you can reasonably trust - it would be perfectly unreasonable to suddenly demand his head, or even to seriously question his judgment, even during a bleak and barren streak.

Woodward isn't that man, though. He has everything to prove. Nothing has gone smoothly or inspired much confidence during his years in charge. Not on the football side, that is: Nobody, as far as I know, questions his ability on the business side. What many do question is whether he's a good chairman (or vice-chairman) from a football perspective - and so far there's reason to question this, since he hasn't done anything to properly earn our trust: He's presided over a sinking ship, as many see it. For me, that's too bleak a view - and I fully agree that many jump to conclusions and are negative and pessimistic as a default stance, but it isn't entirely unfounded. Until we get back to a semblance of what we were, people will keep asking questions - I don't blame them for doing so, even though the form of the questioning can be tiresome at times.
 
great to hear about a root and branch review but it's been a whole year since McClair left?

sounds more to me this has not been made a priority given the timeframe and Woodward is simply saying what fans need to hear.....

regardless of the past I do hope he sticks to his word and sorts the situation out
 
Chesterlestreet said:
As far as I'm concerned the onus is very much on him to prove that he's the right man for the job.
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Just look at the financial numbers released to investors today. The news is incredibly positive and the outlook is good - Woodward has done an exceptional job creating the financial strength to achieve the football ambitions. The foundation is in place to bring in new people and make the needed improvements.
 
Americano said:
Just look at the financial numbers released to investors today. The news is incredibly positive and the outlook is good - Woodward has done an exceptional job creating the financial strength to achieve the football ambitions. The foundation is in place to bring in new people and make the needed improvements.
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The foundations have been in place to bring in new people and make the needed improvements ever since he took over from Gill. There's nothing new there, and nobody is denying that Woodward is good at bringing the money in.
 
A lot of people on here seem to think poor season (s) equates to the whole club being incompetent. It's been frustrating but on the whole finishing one season out of the top 4 (maybe 2 after this season) is hardly a disaster.
 
I hope we plan to do something even bigger and grander than what other clubs are doing, I want the club to get its metaphorical cock out and wave it about showing other clubs how big it is.
 
Ramshock said:
This root and branch review should have been done a few years ago if we are honest.
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I agree, but I can't help but think it was a case of "not broke, don't fix". It's only now that City have cast a huge shadow over our academy and started signing kids from the territory we once dominated that the issue has been highlighted.
 
Didn't McClair leave because he was disillusioned with the state of the academy or something to that affect? If so it sortve makes this all seem like bullshit. If they really were looking to revamp wouldn't they involve McClair or at least make him aware before he left? I suppose him leaving could have maybe forced their hand though.
 
gza the genius said:
Didn't McClair leave because he was disillusioned with the state of the academy or something to that affect? If so it sortve makes this all seem like bullshit. If they really were looking to revamp wouldn't they involve McClair or at least make him aware before he left? I suppose him leaving could have maybe forced their hand though.
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No that was just the press making things up the same way they claimed Derek Langley was leaving because he was disillusioned
 
khoazany said:
So you tell me that the club isn't as brainless as some fans claimed?Amazing.
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Yes, I mean nobody at the top end of a multinational has EVER bullshitted in order to save looking a complete cnut. Ever!

What was he going to say either way? Er, yeah...proper fecked this up as it goes lads. Our bad, our bad.

As long as its got the clubs official badge on it people will accept just about anything on here :)

I'm not saying its not the case...but I'll fecking well believe it when and if it shows evidence. Currently I don't believe the word the cnut says. He's a PR politician for MUFC FFS.

Proof of the pudding is in the eating. We shall find out if its strategic genius...or a load of shite spouted to mask incompetence.

I'm not sold either way. Yet.
 
gza the genius said:
Didn't McClair leave because he was disillusioned with the state of the academy or something to that affect? If so it sortve makes this all seem like bullshit. If they really were looking to revamp wouldn't they involve McClair or at least make him aware before he left? I suppose him leaving could have maybe forced their hand though.
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Or they didn't trust McClair but weren't comfortable with the idea of sacking him, iirc his contract was up in 2015 anyway. Or they trusted McClair and let him run the academy but when he left they realized that it was a "mess". Or they just realized that we have an academy.
 
feck me the amount of Stakeholder meetings I've sat in knowing full well someone is bullshitting to ensure they and their company don't look a cnut.

Maybe I'm just too much of a skeptic in these situations :) as I say I will believe it when I see something happen and work.
 
Akash said:
A lot of people on here seem to think poor season (s) equates to the whole club being incompetent. It's been frustrating but on the whole finishing one season out of the top 4 (maybe 2 after this season) is hardly a disaster.
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It's not a disaster, depending on how you define that term - no. And most sane folk foresaw a dip post Fergie, so it's not a lack of trophies which has (sane) folk worried.

However, this is largely a discussion about Woodward. He's on course for one season in the top four out of a possible three. That's rather grim for a club of our means. Now, you can rightfully say that there's no need to declare failure and doom just yet - but then again you can't say people are being hysterical either, for asking some questions about how the club is run.

7th under Moyes: A dip. More dramatic than most predicted, but still - wrong man hired, a feck-up, fair enough.

4th under LVG: A minimum of what most expected, but still - most were relieved we clawed our way back to CL football and weren't particularly negative about our prospects.

What happens now is crucial. At the moment nobody can confidently say we'll even replicate the bare minimum finish of last season (which would be underwhelming enough in itself - an improvement is what most expected).

5th? Back out of the CL? Hardly inspiring stuff.
 
It's an indictment of Woodward's management of the club that it was left to descend to the stage where there had to be a "root and branch" review.
 
I have always loved Woody. Especially when he said last summer something on the lines of, "When you sign one player, you immediately think, who next?" My muppet heart fell in love with him there and then and now he wants to revive the academy as well. Too much I say :drool:
 
londonredmaniac said:
Yes, I mean nobody at the top end of a multinational has EVER bullshitted in order to save looking a complete cnut. Ever!

What was he going to say either way? Er, yeah...proper fecked this up as it goes lads. Our bad, our bad.

As long as its got the clubs official badge on it people will accept just about anything on here :)

I'm not saying its not the case...but I'll fecking well believe it when and if it shows evidence. Currently I don't believe the word the cnut says. He's a PR politician for MUFC FFS.

Proof of the pudding is in the eating. We shall find out if its strategic genius...or a load of shite spouted to mask incompetence.

I'm not sold either way. Yet.
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Is correct. He's come out with some shite before as well.

Expect really big announcements for really small improvements in the coming weeks. The club is not about to pump huge investment into the academy all of a sudden(which it should be doing anyway) just because of a few newspaper articles.
 
Pexbo said:
I agree, but I can't help but think it was a case of "not broke, don't fix". It's only now that City have cast a huge shadow over our academy and started signing kids from the territory we once dominated that the issue has been highlighted.
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And that's a terrible way of managing a football club, you need to improve or fix little issues bits by bits in order to avoid big brutal changes. That's why I don't believe in the " not broke, don't fix", particularly when we talk about something that isn't supposed to yield fruits quickly, most of what the academy does today will be only seen in 4 or 5 years at best.
 
Why is everyone assuming that a restructure is a good thing? In most other places of employment, a restructure generally means cuts. Which is exactly what the papers have been reporting. Woodward may try and spin this one way, but the proof will be in the pudding.
 
limerickcitykid said:
Ah right, knew it was one of you. Just goes to show again that you (and Khoazany) know 100x more than the media claim to.
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As I keep saying the media reports are about 6 months behind whats actually happening. I don't know if they're only getting the information late or are intentionally waiting to release the stories when they'll get the biggest reaction
 
SkeppyRed said:
Is correct. He's come out with some shite before as well.

Expect really big announcements for really small improvements in the coming weeks. The club is not about to pump huge investment into the academy all of a sudden(which it should be doing anyway) just because of a few newspaper articles.
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There were things being done to fix the problems a long time before the newspapers even realized there were problems
 
londonredmaniac said:
Maybe I'm just too much of a skeptic in these situations :) as I say I will believe it when I see something happen and work.
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Sounds reasonable to me.

It's good to see the club haven't forgotten about the academy, by all means. But the proof is in the pudding, as you say. Him appearing to annouce that he intends to serve a pudding - of some sort - is hardly worth celebrating.
 
pocco said:
Why is everyone assuming that a restructure is a good thing? In most other places of employment, a restructure generally means cuts. Which is exactly what the papers have been reporting. Woodward may try and spin this one way, but the proof will be in the pudding.
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The story about cuts to the academy was rubbished straight away since any cuts would show up in the accounts
 
jb8521 said:
There were things being done to fix the problems a long time before the newspapers even realized there were problems
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I hope so jb. I just don't trust the people who run the club atm.
 
jb8521 said:
As I keep saying the media reports are about 6 months behind whats actually happening. I don't know if they're only getting the information late or are intentionally waiting to release the stories when they'll get the biggest reaction
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Do you know where the club thinks he needs to improve regarding the academy? And I heard about a possible revamp of The Cliff, is it still a project?
 
JPRouve said:
And that's a terrible way of managing a football club, you need to improve or fix little issues bits by bits in order to avoid big brutal changes. That's why I don't believe in the " not broke, don't fix", particularly when we talk about something that isn't supposed to yield fruits quickly, most of what the academy does today will be only seen in 4 or 5 years at best.
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For sure, but I'd also hazard a guess that we've been making little improvements and fixing little issues year on year.

The issue comes when your only real competition build a space age mega-structure next door and make you look like your from the stone age.

Up until City did that, the academy was attracting the best local talent and was therefore doing it's job. Now we've had our hand forced by them and we'll soon find out what action we'll take.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
It's not a disaster, depending on how you define that term - no. And most sane folk foresaw a dip post Fergie, so it's not a lack of trophies which has (sane) folk worried.

However, this is largely a discussion about Woodward. He's on course for one season in the top four out of a possible three. That's rather grim for a club of our means. Now, you can rightfully say that there's no need to declare failure and doom just yet - but then again you can't say people are being hysterical either, for asking some questions about how the club is run.

7th under Moyes: A dip. More dramatic than most predicted, but still - wrong man hired, a feck-up, fair enough.

4th under LVG: A minimum of what most expected, but still - most were relieved we clawed our way back to CL football and weren't particularly negative about our prospects.

What happens now is crucial. At the moment nobody can confidently say we'll even replicate the bare minimum finish of last season (which would be underwhelming enough in itself - an improvement is what most expected).

5th? Back out of the CL? Hardly inspiring stuff.
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it's immensely frustrating but I really don't think it's end of the world stuff even if he do finish outside the top 4. Clubs like Bayern and Barcelona have finished outside champions league places in the past and they faced nowhere near the upheaval that we have over the past 3 seasons. It happens. As long as there's no panic in the boardroom and there's a proper plan in place we'll be fine. People bring up Liverpool's fall a lot but imo Fergie has built up the club to such a degree that it will take monumental levels of incompetence for us fall like Liverpool.
 
Rednotdead said:
It's an indictment of Woodward's management of the club that it was left to descend to the stage where there had to be a "root and branch" review.
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How can you say that when he wouldn't have been in the job that long at that time? He didn't ruin the system in a year.
 
Pexbo said:
For sure, but I'd also hazard a guess that we've been making little improvements and fixing little issues year on year.

The issue comes when your only real competition build a space age mega-structure next door and make you look like your from the stone age.

Up until City did that, the academy was attracting the best local talent and was therefore doing it's job. Now we've had our hand forced by them and we'll soon find out what action we'll take.
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I understand but that wouldn't explain the none appointment of an academy director, I could eventually explain that by the unavailability of the chosen candidate.
Regarding City, we saw them build their academy, they didn't teleported secretly one night, so it doesn't make any sense to wait for them to finish it before beginning our own plans.

And to be clear I'm no blaming anyone, I'm just being curious about the circumstances.
 
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