Academy promise coming to a head?

Brightonian

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The combination of a very tense shift tonight which I wasn't even supposed to be working, and having just watched the recorded Liverpool game has me feeling pretty hyped up about our youngsters, so go easy on me if I overreach here...

Does anyone else feel like the ever-growing promise of our youth set-up over the last few years - with each set of kids seemingly even more consistently talented than the last - is about to come to a head?

I spend a lot of time boring my dad silly about our youth sides, and for a few years every time he responds to my hyperbole by asking when he's likely to see any of these kids getting a chance in the first team, I've had to answer with a lot of 'ooh, these things can't be rushed, next season or maybe the season after, but they really are brilliant I promise you...'

Now it seems like a whole host of players across a couple of different academy 'generations' are suddenly in the right place to be considered options for either first-team chances or serious, play-every-week Premier League loans.

- A good pre-season tour and the right manager, and Wilson could start getting first-team game time.
- Lawrence, Michael Keane and Lingard could surely all succeed in the right PL loans if given the chance, but would also be great shouts for promotion to the first team if the space could be found. Let's not forget that Lingard has now been arguably our most effective player on two consecutive first-team pre-season tours. Lawrence shone for the Wales U21s against an England U21 side featuring a lot of first-team PL players (Redmond, Morrison, Berahino, Ward-Prowse, Stones, etc).
- Pearson and Rothwell may still be a season away from being ready, but anyone who saw them match Dembele and Bentaleb - both first-choice first XI players for Spurs for chunks of this season - in our 1-0 win away at White Hart Lane would surely be hard-pressed to find a reason why they couldn't cope with League Cup run-outs.
- A number of players could well be useful in positions which need back-up reinforcement in the first team but won't be the focus of our expenditure. While we spend money on central midfielders and a new first-choice LB, we could trust Jones, Evans and Smalling to be first choice at CB and let Keane and Thorpe come in as their back-up, having gained a significant amount of loan experience by now. Varela is surely a viable option to do the same as Rafael's back-up - unproven he may be, but having a specialist second-choice RB is surely preferable to playing CBs out of position there as we've had to so often over the last couple of seasons.
- Januzaj has made all of this seem a lot more plausible by blazing a trail, making some progress in debunking the idea in a lot of fans' heads that the gap in quality between U21 and first-team football renders indications of talent in the former meaningless in the latter. On the contrary, those who watched Januzaj in the U18s and U21s knew that his quality was genuine, that he could maintain it and indeed make a big step up amongst first XI teammates... and he did. A lot of people were calling him our best attacking player for a fair chunk of the season.

So what do you reckon? Our academy went through a somewhat dry spell, and I think in a lot of fans' minds the idea of actually promoting youngsters into the first team in numbers is a pipe dream reserved for the elevated likes of Barcelona or specialist talent-makers like Ajax. But Southampton this season have shown just how valid an approach it still is in the Premier League, and Januzaj has proven that it can work wonders for our first team.

Are any of these players going to be in our first team in five years' time? Will any potential manager have the balls to give them serious opportunities? Or will this sense of impending promotions end up being a damp squib?
 
I can't claim to know a thing about any of these guys, but one thing I've read a lot about Van Gaal is that he puts a lot of trust in youth. If so, it'll be very exciting to see some of the youngsters getting a shot (provided they have the talent of course.)
 
I hope so. But as you can see from this season alone the PL top 4 is really tight and I'm skeptical of managers being willing to risk too many young players. That's an advantage Southampton have as they are mid-table and dropping a point or two to put in some youngsters doesn't really hurt. Whereas for a top team a point or two could mean winning the league or not or being top 4 or not.

Like you though I am really hoping we do give the chances to them and the talks about Van Gaal sound like they might.

I have a bit of an irrational love-in for Tom Lawrence so there is no one I'd like to see make it here more than him and with his loan spells, today's performance and the Wales U21 performance things are looking up for him. Moyes talked about giving Wilson some match time so I fully expect him to get some time here or out on loan next season. Personally I'd have Keane out on a PL loan and from the U21s I think Thorpe is at a similar level although a Championship loan is more likely for him. I'd be more than happy to give either some time here either.

Varela and Vermijl need to be given a chance. I see people talking about signing a back-up RB but we have two right here. Hopefully we'll see them instead of Smalling and Jones out right as our play was severely affected this year when playing them at RB compared to Rafael.

Rothwell and Pearson are brilliant, there is not many matches I have watched where they haven't been in the top 3 or 4 players on the pitch. I have no doubt if they were at a Championship club they would be regulars and being linked to Premier League clubs. Just look at Pearson getting played for the England U19s over Alex Mowatt, a regular at Leeds. Again though at the top of the table it is if you are willing to take the risk. We were hesitant with Pogba (rightly or wrongly, no need to debate this again) and we see what hes gone on to do. At 19, turning 20 in January I'd be sending both on loan as a cup match or two isn't enough. They are the type of midfielders that I love. Tough, energetic, committed, and good on the ball. Exactly the type of midfielders we are missing in the first team.

We've got a great group of lads who if given the time and trust could have a great chance of making it. In today's PL it is whether that time and trust can be given. It is an immediate results business and many managers aren't willing to bring on a 18-19 year old that they'll never even get to manage in their prime.

I really hope they get the chance and I think they deserve the chance but I am optimistic. Realistically speaking I'm not sure if they will. We need to be getting them the play they need and not holding them back. I remember a Dutch supporter on here or another forum saying if Andreas was still at PSV he'd be getting chances now as they can afford to. This leads to who do we prefer our 19/20 year old reserve with limited to no first team experience or buy a 19/20 year old with 50+ first team matches somewhere else? It is a tough one and why I personally think as a player it is beneficial to leave a top club at 18/19 for a weaker team ala Mats Daehli.

I'm just starting to ramble, like Michael Owen said I could talk about the loan system and youth football all day. So, yeah I hope Van Gaal brings some of them through. There isn't a much better sight than watching a youth player progress into the first team.
 
I doubt we'll have as many as Barcelona and Ajax in the past or this season's PSV side come through the ranks but its possible. We do have some players who need to be given a chance soon or they'll have to start thinking about a career elsewhere, like Bebe, Zaha, Will Keane, Michael Keane, Varela, Thorpe, Petrucci and Lingard who are all 21 and above.

At the same time, while we have a good bunch of young players I don't think we have more than a couple of big talents who can come close to emulating the success of Januzaj this season.

If all of the young players who have gone out on loan and done well and our most outstanding under 21 side players are given a chance I think we'd probably get a handful of players who perform well for the first team in a squad role. But thats a lot of players to give games, a lot of senior players who are being left out and we dont know who would slot seamlessly into first team football and who might struggle despite their talent. It might be some of our more talented young players struggle to have an impact with the first team, while some of the steady under 21 players come in and perform well in a Brown and O'Shea kind of way.

Van Gaal sounds like a man who will look to give several of those young players a chance. Can we do it whilst still bringing in the quality needed to challenge for the title? Probably not. Thats the risk we'd be taking. We'd be purposefully leaving ourselves short hoping that the young players would grow and bridge the gap and it could be another season outside of the champions league if they dont grow up really fast.

The other problem is the new manager isn't going to know all these players when he gets here. It'd take time to understand the situation and for that reason I think we'd be best off leaving it 1 season before trying to rely on the academy and under 21 sides to produce most of the players we use.

I think this summer if Van Gaal comes in, we should sign what we clearly need in midfield (possibly 2 players, but certainly 1 thats proven himself in a decent league) and anything else he thinks we'd need for a title challenge. And then after 1 season he'll know where he can leave us short and promote youth to fill the gaps in the future.

In the meantime I think we'd be able to hang on to our best young players coming through without them leaving for Juventus or wherever because in my opinion the most promising ones are British and not already at that 21-22 age where if it hasnt happened at United yet, maybe its not going to happen for you here.
 
The thing is, though, players who seem to be good enough won't always make it to our first-team. For someone to make it to Man. Utd.'s first team, they have to show high quality and maturity. Most of our U-21 players show good promise, with Wilson, Varela, Vermijl, and Keane being the most ready out of the current lot. Lingard may stay with us as a squad player or may leave for the prospect of first-team football.

I'm also going to add in that whilst we may have good youngsters coming through, it won't be likely that the new manager will opt for them as he won't know them well enough immediately. The likes of Lawrence, Lingard, Bebe, Petrucci, Will Keane, etc., may find it difficult with the quality of players ahead of them (maybe Bebe can make it as a goalscoring winger in the squad, but that's as far as I think that could go).

Plus, we have several young players who don't look likely to make it at Man. Utd. (most of them are out on loan, though). The likes of Blackett, Byrne, Macheda, Petrucci, and maybe even Thorpe don't look like they may make it here (if they do make it, I'll admit to making a wrong prediction).

As previously stated, these youngsters need to get some regular first-team football in order to turn promise into actual top-level ability. Several of our U-21 players look like they are ready for first-team football at the lower levels, for sure.
 
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It's amazing how much more comfortable on the ball last nights team looked compared to our first team. All the things we complain about aren't an issue at all.
 
I was interested to read mrmujac say recently that the academy is not producing like it used to. He said that the players are better technically but not as good footballers as a few years ago.

We seem to do pretty well by all accounts. Pogba and Januzaj could go down as two of the best graduates ever.

Wilson is the player that is most openly hyped. I am interested to see if Ben Person gets promoted under Van Gaal. I have always been a big fan and he is such a good worker and passer in that midfield. I know that a few are not that impressed with Pereira's overall contribution but I think he is the most talented player who will shine when he gets more responsibility.
 
Jimy_Hills_Chin said:
I was interested to read mrmujac say recently that the academy is not producing like it used to. He said that the players are better technically but not as good footballers as a few years ago.
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He means the younger age groups.For examples the group of Mitchell,Riley,Henderson,.. has nobody looks like they will strive through the rank the way Wilson or Pereira did (maybe C-B Jackson but he's a CB).
 
Quality thread..Fingers crossed Januzaj's trail blazing ushers in a new generation in the same way Giggs' introduction all those years ago did. But we've had lots of promising young players in the ranks for a long time, hopefully they can make the progression to full professionals which unfortunately doesnt always happen..
 
It's been there a while. Few seasons ago we could have looked at Pogba, Morrison, Keane, King (don't think loan worked for him), Cofie was even talented but you never know about the attitudes of some. So yeah we have a great group. I like Harrop, I think he's got good ability but then you see Lawrence yesterday and so does he. Often we look at other clubs kids because it's easier to get into their team or harder to get into ours. It don't make them a better player then what we got. We've really good potential and that's been the case for a good while. You'd have to say, in the last 20 odd years - this is the best time to introduce fresh blood but we might decide to buy everyone on the transfer market.
 
I think quite a few of our youngsters could (should) make it.
Lingard, Wilson, Varela, M. Keane and Lawrence are out in front atm imo and I genuinely think they should be integrated into the first team next season. I'll be disappointed if they aren't but PL loans wouldn't be the worst thing in the world for some.

Pearson might be my favourite player for his tenacity, enthusiasm and commitment although I think talking about those qualities in isolation does him a bit of a disservice because he isn't just good at sticking his foot in and breaking up the play he's technically very good too. I don't think he's first team ready yet but I'll be massively disappointed if he doesn't make it here if his development continues on the same trajectory.
 
khoazany said:
He means the younger age groups.For examples the group of Mitchell,Riley,Henderson,.. has nobody looks like they will strive through the rank the way Wilson or Pereira did (maybe C-B Jackson but he's a CB).
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Is that something that you agree with? I haven't watch any of the U18s for a while. Does it extend to the younger age groups too?
 
Jimy_Hills_Chin said:
Is that something that you agree with? I haven't watch any of the U18s for a while. Does it extend to the younger age groups too?
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From what I've seen, I agree in that no one stands out. It's primarily the younger age groups. But at those ages, things can change very quickly and it's extremely hard to make a judgement I suspect. Over time I'm hopeful a few will spring up. Having said that, I only started following our youth teams more a year or two ago, so I'm not sure of the kind of hype our lower age groups players had when they joined. So maybe I'm completely wrong!
 
marukomu said:
and provided van Gaal actually becomes our manager.
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I think it's safe to say that he will be our manager. When every single media outlet comes out saying that we're getting him, apart from that 'snag' about Giggs which hasn't been reported upon since, it's safe to assume he will be our next manager. The last time the media were this united in opinion was when Moyes was sacked.

If Van Gaal comes in, expect the likes of Lingaard, Lawrence, Keane, Perreira, Rothwell, Pearson et al to have a real chance of breaking into the team. Our U-21's have even reached the cup final so obviously we have a talented bunch. Van Gaal will surely promote somebody. You can bet your house on that.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
It's amazing how much more comfortable on the ball last nights team looked compared to our first team. All the things we complain about aren't an issue at all.
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Very true and a lot of that is because of Warren Joyce. The man emplys modern passing methods at our youth level. Heck even uses a 'False 9' system! Can't imagine many British managers employing that nowadays.
 
rpitroda said:
From what I've seen, I agree in that no one stands out. It's primarily the younger age groups. But at those ages, things can change very quickly and it's extremely hard to make a judgement I suspect. Over time I'm hopeful a few will spring up. Having said that, I only started following our youth teams more a year or two ago, so I'm not sure of the kind of hype our lower age groups players had when they joined. So maybe I'm completely wrong!
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You think so? Fletcher, Mitchell, Goss and Harrop for me look quality.
 
LR7 said:
You think so? Fletcher, Mitchell, Goss and Harrop for me look quality.
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I mean I don't know how much you've followed our youth teams historically, but I haven't really at all except last year or two. I don't really have anything to base it against so I could be way off the mark. You can see talent but I guess what I was referring to moreso is someone who stands out as someone who you can just tell has that something extra to get through the youth ranks.
 
rpitroda said:
From what I've seen, I agree in that no one stands out. It's primarily the younger age groups. But at those ages, things can change very quickly and it's extremely hard to make a judgement I suspect. Over time I'm hopeful a few will spring up. Having said that, I only started following our youth teams more a year or two ago, so I'm not sure of the kind of hype our lower age groups players had when they joined. So maybe I'm completely wrong!
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Definitely not true. There are already a number catching the eye. Harrop, Mitchell and Goss especially, but also others like Fletcher, Evans, Willock, and young Rashford.

Harrop, in particular, has that touch of special quality about him that Morrison, Januzaj and Pereira have had in the groups before him. It's no surprise he's already pushing for an U21 spot.

The mark for me of the genuine improvement that's been going on over the last five years or so is in the consistency of the talent. It's become less a case of one or two prospects playing amongst a load of lads who never really look likely to make it (as it was when Welbeck was coming through, for example, or even a little bit with Pogba and Morrison) - nowadays, it's hard to write off almost any of the lads at U18 level. There are still standouts, as I've mentioned, but 80% or more of that group look good enough that they could potentially become top prospects. That consistent excellence is the pay-off of all the hard work that's gone into the academy and reserves over the last ten years.
 
LR7 said:
Pearson might be my favourite player for his tenacity, enthusiasm and commitment although I think talking about those qualities in isolation does him a bit of a disservice because he isn't just good at sticking his foot in and breaking up the play he's technically very good too. I don't think he's first team ready yet but I'll be massively disappointed if he doesn't make it here if his development continues on the same trajectory.
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Yep, Pearson is my favourite too. Even when he was playing alongside Januzaj and Daehli he was my favourite to make it. On top of all his many, many qualities (is there an aspect of the game where he isn't strong?!), he's just got that... thing. That x-factor. His every touch of the ball screams 'future first-teamer'.
 
I think it's easy to get overenthusiastic about the young players, especially with the focus on the class of 92 at the moment. So few actually make it though and it's harder and harder to get established in the first team. I'd like to see the Barca model employed here, where you buy big, but the squad is supplemented by the homegrown players to keep the core identity of the club.
 
How many in the last 10 years have gone on to become 1st team regulars?. Anyone know?. I have no clue on this
 
Stack said:
How many in the last 10 years have gone on to become 1st team regulars?. Anyone know?. I have no clue on this
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Very few. Welbeck and Evans, off the top of my head. Fletcher if you go that far back.

But the academy and reserves is a very different prospect now than it was 10 years ago. Frightening amount of talent coming through, and consistently, which is the big difference. A lot of people who don't actually watch the youth sides that much will tell you that it's hype and hyperbole, that it's actually no better now than it was back then, that we can't risk bringing youngsters through and that they'll probably fail in the PL spotlight, etc etc. But they said the same thing about Januzaj. The obstacles to an U21 making it in the first team are bigger in fans' heads than they are in reality. Look at Martinez at Everton, or Pochettino at Southampton. Mostly, you just have to have the balls and take the risk.
 
Brightonian said:
Definitely not true. There are already a number catching the eye. Harrop, Mitchell and Goss especially, but also others like Fletcher, Evans, Willock, and young Rashford.
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I was talking about the age group under Harrop (Harrop belongs to the same age group Wilson which is second-year scholar).Mitchell was really hot and cold this season.Thompson strikes me as a solid talent and CBJ was good at the back but there's evidently a dip in quality at that age group.I mean obviously they're all decent talents for us to offer them scholarships but if you want to make it at United you must belong to a really high calibre of talents.

Only 8 scholars coming in from the U16s for next season I don't want to tell too soon about them but from what I see I don't see anyone do a Wilson among them (apart from Rashford maybe).Partly because the strength of the youth setup goes in cycle of course.The U15s age group has many talents that looks like they can become something special and we have Gomes and co. in the U14s.

Willock,Evans... can't be categorised as special talent IMO.Just my opinion.
 
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khoazany said:
I was talking about the age group under Harrop (Harrop belongs to the same age group Wilson which is second-year scholar).Mitchell was really hot and cold this season.Thompson strikes me as a solid talent and CBJ was good at the back but there's evidently a dip in quality at that age group.I mean obviously they're all decent talents for us to offer them scholarships but if you want to make it at United you must belong to a really high calibre of talents.

Only 8 scholars coming in from the U16s for next season I don't want to tell too soon about them but from what I see I don't see anyone do a Wilson among them (apart from Rashford maybe).Partly because the strength of the youth setup goes in cycle of course.The U15s age group has many talents that looks like they can become something special and we have Gomes and co. in the U14s.

Willock,Evans... can't be categorised as special talent IMO.Just my opinion.
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Mitchell is a flair winger, so he's always going to be hot and cold at this level, but to not categorise him as a special talent given some of the stuff he can do is crazy. And in my opinion if you can't see it with Willock you need to watch more closely. And it seems odd to mention Rashford but not acknowledge him properly - he's looked like the star player in the U18s at times and he's barely 16.

Of course if you go below the 16 and 17 year olds it's harder to tell, but that's because they're so early in their development, not because there aren't talents amongst them.

This is exactly what I'm saying: over the past five years or so, our academy development hasn't been going in cycles, it's been a crescendo. And I doubt you'd find many who'd agree with you that that hasn't continued with our latest set.
 
Hopefully. What has impressed me about the U21's is the comfort they feel when they're on the ball. Their passing and ability to work the ball in tight spaces is excellent, and has stood out amongst the opposition even in the games they have drew or lost. Bodes well.
 
The only 'special' talents we've had in the past few years were Pogba, Morrison and Januzaj.

Wilson is starting to also show that, Daehli looked v good at times and obviously talented.

As for the rest, there are some with a chance, and I admire your enthusiasm, but you need to temper it with realism.
 
Brightonian said:
Mitchell is a flair winger, so he's always going to be hot and cold at this level, but to not categorise him as a special talent given some of the stuff he can do is crazy. And in my opinion if you can't see it with Willock you need to watch more closely. And it seems odd to mention Rashford but not acknowledge him properly - he's looked like the star player in the U18s at times and he's barely 16.
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I'm sure among the U18s watchers I'm not the only one who's not really rate him this season.Credits where credits due, he has an okay season but it has been underwhelming given the expectation.Not a coincidence when our result began to drop when we promote Wilson and Janko to the U21s especially with some injuries to the second-year scholars - the first-years haven't stepped up to the required level when needed.

Not saying he won't turn out to be good but he has many things to prove at this U18s level let alone tougher challenge.

Willock has been consistently decent in the midfield but he's not Rothwell,Pearson or even Goss calibre of talent.We produce that kind of CM talent every single year.

Of course Rashford has been impressive - I was saying maybe he can reach Wilson's level of talent and he's the one I'll be most excited at the U18s level next season apart from some of the schoolboys.
 
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Not really followed the youngsters this season, but I've heard good things about them, particularly Wilson. Who are our best prospects right now? And how is Angelo Henriquez getting on?
 
Ramshock said:
Doesnt our academy need significent investment? I want an academy on par with Barca and Ajax!!
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No I don't think so. It may need some changing and tinkering, I don't know the full infrastructure but it is still a top academy. If we were in a weaker league we'd have as much opportunity to give young players a chance too. Ajax have hardly been doing that good in this year's UEFA youth league or last year's NextGen.

Speaking of the UEFA youth league, I am well pissed we are going to miss out on it next year.
 
limerickcitykid said:
No I don't think so. It may need some changing and tinkering, I don't know the full infrastructure but it is still a top academy. If we were in a weaker league we'd have as much opportunity to give young players a chance too. Ajax have hardly been doing that good in this year's UEFA youth league or last year's NextGen.

Speaking of the UEFA youth league, I am well pissed we are going to miss out on it next year.
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Why are we?
 
Brightonian said:
Very few. Welbeck and Evans, off the top of my head. Fletcher if you go that far back.

But the academy and reserves is a very different prospect now than it was 10 years ago. Frightening amount of talent coming through, and consistently, which is the big difference. A lot of people who don't actually watch the youth sides that much will tell you that it's hype and hyperbole, that it's actually no better now than it was back then, that we can't risk bringing youngsters through and that they'll probably fail in the PL spotlight, etc etc. But they said the same thing about Januzaj. The obstacles to an U21 making it in the first team are bigger in fans' heads than they are in reality. Look at Martinez at Everton, or Pochettino at Southampton. Mostly, you just have to have the balls and take the risk.
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How do you mean consistently? Januzaj's the only one made any kind of impact at first team level so far.

People get way too carried away with young players. If we can get 2 first teamers out of the current batch that will be a huge improvement.

We've been here so many times before with (Cleverley, Tunicliffe, Daehli etc..) is special but really the only special player we've produced in years is Pogba and he wasn't really a full United youth prospect.

Januzaj has a really good chance of being the second.
 
Ramshock said:
Doesnt our academy need significent investment? I want an academy on par with Barca and Ajax!!
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It's not a matter of money, it's a matter of national legislation. The good news is the FA are doing something about it.
 
Ramshock said:
Why are we?
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Well, no. We didn't accept the invitation to NextGen. In the uefa youth league I thought we were a bit unfortunate not to go through and really should have won another game or two. City, Chelsea and Arsenal all made the quarters, better than Ajax. We are in the U21 PL finals against Chelsea now.

Saying this, it is hard to base academies off of just results. Aston Villa won the NextGen series but their academy isn't that good. All I'm saying though is that talk of our academy needing huge restructuring is wrong. It may need some changes but everything needs constant productive changes. I think there is just a lot bigger of an opportunity to give youth playing time in the Eredivisie and La Liga which gives them the bonus and as Elliot says national legislation plays a big part in it too.
 
Ramshock said:
Doesnt our academy need significent investment? I want an academy on par with Barca and Ajax!!
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You'll be happy to know our academy teams are doing really well in the European under age competitions the last couple of years. In the last couple of years our under 15s have come 2nd and 4th in the Marveld tournament despite having the youngest squad in the tournament and a couple of weeks ago our under 12s got to the semi finals of the MIC cup only losing to Barcelona on penalties. Barcelona hammered everybody else including beating Ajax 5-0 in the final. We also had the player of the tournament. The group of players who'll play in this years Marveld tournament have a few exceptional players in it as well so our academy is definitely doing something right.
 
khoazany said:
He means the younger age groups.For examples the group of Mitchell,Riley,Henderson,.. has nobody looks like they will strive through the rank the way Wilson or Pereira did (maybe C-B Jackson but he's a CB).
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A bit early to make that judgement, isn't it? There have been a lot of players who've struggled to make an impact in their first year and gone on to good things. Lingard didn't score at all in his first year, Michael Keane was an absolute ghost, Tom Lawrence was always a bit in the shadow of the generation before (Morrison, Pogba, Keanes, etc.) and Paddy McNair is doing pretty well for himself now after not making much of a dent on the U18s. Mitchell's had a pretty good season compared to some of those lads.

On a separate note, you seem to know a lot about the youth teams, do you know anything about Rathbone and McTominay? They've been pretty much non-existent this year bar some time spent on the bench.
 
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