A team without Rashford, De Gea and Bruno

There's no need to be sarcastic, you are much better than that. I'm just asking a question in a more general manner. The logic you are describing is what has basically kept the likes of Martial at the club for so long. And who decides who is a 3/10 player and who is an 8/10? For the job Solskjaer (or even Mourinho, who wanted him), Maguire was probably an 8/10 centre-half. For ETH, i doubt it. Given that we'll probably struggle to beat Solskajer's 74 points tally and that we most certainly won't score 73 goals, one could make a case that the midfield partnership that allowed Bruno and the rest of the gang to shine more was McFred. The numbers would support their case. But, of course, we know that Casemiro is the far superior player. So, perhaps, your star players need a particular environment to do their thing? But... their thing is going against the grain of the football ideas which are currently dominating the scene. What then? You protect the assets or you bring the right people in to help you shift direction?

So, i repeat the question. What if by the end of next season, we still remain an 80-points max team with no aspirations to go far in the CL. I'll make it easier for you. Let's imagine that Pep coaches United. I'm using him as an example because he's probably the only manager in the world who guarantees success. He walks in and says: "I come with my brand of football. I don't have any use for De Gea, Bruno and Rashford (as the OP suggests) in my system. It will take me two or three seasons to get there, but i need to start now". What are you going to do?

Klopp changed Liverpool's fates around when he brought in Firmino for Coutinho. The latter was their star player, worth more than a 100 million. By your logic, it was the wrong thing to do.
The logic that kept Martial here still isn't the wrong logic. We kept signing old players to replace him who lasted 1 or 2 seasons and had no buyers. And I'm not being sarcastic. There's a method of recruitment that I just simply don't agree with in terms of signing stars where you already have a good output, while ignoring pressing needs. That's the thinking where we kept trying to sign wingers and strikers and centerbacks while ignoring the midfield for a decade. Our midfield was our weakest position in our squad, by far, for years. Yet what did Ole do to address it? We ignored RW for years and kept signing LW's thinking they can fit in at RW and make do.

You are comparing our goal totals where we had a fit Martial or Cavani up top, compared to now having Weghorst and a washed Ronaldo. It's not a comparison that says anything about our deep midfield roles. Again - that's my point. We don't have a striker that is even premier league level who can stay fit. We are supposed to compete for trophies, while having a player up top who is only good for working hard and literally is incapable of even getting chances let alone scoring. Address the weakest position - striker - not the creator behind him who performs to a good level but maybe not Odegaard/De Bruyne level. Replacing Weghorst with Haaland or Gabriel Jesus or Nketiah or Alvarez or even just a fit Martial would improve us FAR MORE than using Odegaard or De Bruyne instead of Bruno.

And of course star players need the right environment. Which is why my logic is address the gaping holes. For years we had problems fitting in Pogba, who had star player potential. He never had the right setup around him. Replace him with Bruno, Eriksen, whoever... You aren't getting a settled system until you just put a DM in there which we finally did with Casemiro.
 
The premise of the post is would we be a better team if we replaced them. The semantics i.e cost, do the want to go etc is irrelevant to this debate. Which team would be better A or B?
Cost is semantics now... Right. What is the point of a debate when any realistic factor is discarded?

Yes, if Ten Hag was building a squad from scratch, money was no object, you could pick who you want to play... Yeah he wouldn't pick Bruno. It's about being successful and building around the players you have, who fits your needs, how can you best improve the team each summer with the budget you have.

You're talking about a parallel universe where we just swap Bruno for Bellingham (who would cost 150m), Rashford for Kvara (who would cost 150m), and Weghorst for Osimhen (who would cost 150m). Or de Gea for Costa who would cost 70m. Like... What? On one hand you are investing 520m worth of players and getting back 180m at best between Rashford and Bruno. Net spend 340m. On the other, you are investing in just 1 position - striker. Net spend 150m. You've got 200m to spend for the other team where it's even a relevant comparison.

Why not put Costa in for De Gea as he's the next weakest after striker (70m), Frenkie in for Eriksen (70m), and get a top RB in for the rest if you are comparing on paper a starting 11? And at that point you're just asking who provides more overall, Bruno and Rashford or Eriksen and Dalot/Wan Bissaka vs the upgrades out there. Pretty easy answer for me.
 
The logic that kept Martial here still isn't the wrong logic. We kept signing old players to replace him who lasted 1 or 2 seasons and had no buyers. And I'm not being sarcastic. There's a method of recruitment that I just simply don't agree with in terms of signing stars where you already have a good output, while ignoring pressing needs. That's the thinking where we kept trying to sign wingers and strikers and centerbacks while ignoring the midfield for a decade. Our midfield was our weakest position in our squad, by far, for years. Yet what did Ole do to address it? We ignored RW for years and kept signing LW's thinking they can fit in at RW and make do.

You are comparing our goal totals where we had a fit Martial or Cavani up top, compared to now having Weghorst and a washed Ronaldo. It's not a comparison that says anything about our deep midfield roles. Again - that's my point. We don't have a striker that is even premier league level who can stay fit. We are supposed to compete for trophies, while having a player up top who is only good for working hard and literally is incapable of even getting chances let alone scoring. Address the weakest position - striker - not the creator behind him who performs to a good level but maybe not Odegaard/De Bruyne level. Replacing Weghorst with Haaland or Gabriel Jesus or Nketiah or Alvarez or even just a fit Martial would improve us FAR MORE than using Odegaard or De Bruyne instead of Bruno.

And of course star players need the right environment. Which is why my logic is address the gaping holes. For years we had problems fitting in Pogba, who had star player potential. He never had the right setup around him. Replace him with Bruno, Eriksen, whoever... You aren't getting a settled system until you just put a DM in there which we finally did with Casemiro.

What Solskjaer did was build a system with a back-four and two grafters in front of them so that our most creative player can enjoy a free role on the pitch as a roaming play-maker, and also so that our main attacking outlets wouldn't have to worry much about their defensive duties. During the course of his tenure, he also shifted from mid-press tactics to sit back, absorb pressure and hit on the counter because this is exactly the kind of football they thrive in. It worked for him... up to a certain degree. The question in the OP remains, what if this is as good as it gets with these players leading the line?

It's funny that you mention Pogba because i believe that, up until Eriksen's injury, we weren't missing him a bit. It is funny because the main cause for the never-ending quest for Pogba's "best position" on the pitch (one of the Caf's favourite pastimes) was his limited positional sense, which meant that others had to create pockets of space for him to receive the ball. Whereas Eriksen, despite being the lesser overall player, can read the game in order to position himself to receive the ball on the turn and release it with one touch. Subsequently, he offers us more rotational options in the midfield (since he can receive the ball in front of the defence with Casemiro moving further up the pitch) which can be essential for opening up spaces by not allowing the opposition to settle in their shape. But you would keep Pogba in this team because 1v1, he's better than Eriksen. I believe you can see the difference this season with an in-form Eriksen in the side.

Similarly, no one is questioning Bruno's numbers. No one doubts his impact on this side. And yes, Odegaard wouldn't have had the same impact as Bruno on this particular United side. But no one's claiming these things. The people who approach this in this manner are missing the point of the discussion and they are basically arguing against themselves. The premise is to prioritize the system over the individuals in orders to produce better results. Not because we have nothing better to do with our time, but because the "system" teams are the ones who are dominating the field and because we still look miles off them. Not on points, on the general outlook. When people compare KdB with Bruno and they use the stats to showcase how brilliant Bruno's numbers are in all the #10's metrics, they are missing a key element. What makes De Bruyne such a great player is that he achieves such productivity while integrating himself in the system and (therefore) working on the pitch to open up spaces for others, and not vice versa. Which is what (players like) Bruno needs to get these numbers. Which is also what Pogba needed at United.

Look, i understand your point. When we get down to brass tacks, facing the reality of our situation, i can definitely see where you're coming from. I saw the OP as an exercise. There are players who are like that. I remember, while i was growing up, that i loved Baggio. I wouldn't hear a bad word about him. He's one of the most naturally gifted and talented footballers i have ever watched on a pitch. The fact remains, that in the four seasons Juventus were trying to build a team around him, they couldn't even get close to the scudetto Yeah, Milan were a different beast in the era, but still, a not-really-challenging second place was the best they could manage. His replacement, while not the maverick Baggio was, but a player easier to fit in the manager's plans, left a far more lasting mark. Sometimes, you are forced to reevaluate your options and your general approach. The relationship between Gerrard and Liverpool also springs to mind.

Apologies for misinterpreting the tone of your previous post.
 
There is a split in the fanbase between some players that sacrosanct to some and we wont win with them in the team for others. Highly debatable players. Those being Rashford, De Gea and Bruno. Now lets just for argument sake say we buy a striker and then sell those 3 and replaced them. Lets also presume they adapt easily and play similar levels they are playing now.

Which team would be better over a season?

Team A
----------------------------De Gea
AWB------------Varane------Martinez-----------Shaw
----------------Casemiro--------Eriksen
---------------------------Bruno
Antony--------------Osimhen--------- Rashford


Team B
----------------------------Costa
AWB------------Varane------Martinez-----------Shaw
-------Casemiro-----Bellingham---Eriksen
Antony--------------Osimhen--------- Kvaratskhelia

B and it isn't even close
 
What Solskjaer did was build a system with a back-four and two grafters in front of them so that our most creative player can enjoy a free role on the pitch as a roaming play-maker, and also so that our main attacking outlets wouldn't have to worry much about their defensive duties. During the course of his tenure, he also shifted from mid-press tactics to sit back, absorb pressure and hit on the counter because this is exactly the kind of football they thrive in. It worked for him... up to a certain degree. The question in the OP remains, what if this is as good as it gets with these players leading the line?

It's funny that you mention Pogba because i believe that, up until Eriksen's injury, we weren't missing him a bit. It is funny because the main cause for the never-ending quest for Pogba's "best position" on the pitch (one of the Caf's favourite pastimes) was his limited positional sense, which meant that others had to create pockets of space for him to receive the ball. Whereas Eriksen, despite being the lesser overall player, can read the game in order to position himself to receive the ball on the turn and release it with one touch. Subsequently, he offers us more rotational options in the midfield (since he can receive the ball in front of the defence with Casemiro moving further up the pitch) which can be essential for opening up spaces by not allowing the opposition to settle in their shape. But you would keep Pogba in this team because 1v1, he's better than Eriksen. I believe you can see the difference this season with an in-form Eriksen in the side.

Similarly, no one is questioning Bruno's numbers. No one doubts his impact on this side. And yes, Odegaard wouldn't have had the same impact as Bruno on this particular United side. But no one's claiming these things. The people who approach this in this manner are missing the point of the discussion and they are basically arguing against themselves. The premise is to prioritize the system over the individuals in orders to produce better results. Not because we have nothing better to do with our time, but because the "system" teams are the ones who are dominating the field and because we still look miles off them. Not on points, on the general outlook. When people compare KdB with Bruno and they use the stats to showcase how brilliant Bruno's numbers are in all the #10's metrics, they are missing a key element. What makes De Bruyne such a great player is that he achieves such productivity while integrating himself in the system and (therefore) working on the pitch to open up spaces for others, and not vice versa. Which is what (players like) Bruno needs to get these numbers. Which is also what Pogba needed at United.

Look, i understand your point. When we get down to brass tacks, facing the reality of our situation, i can definitely see where you're coming from. I saw the OP as an exercise. There are players who are like that. I remember, while i was growing up, that i loved Baggio. I wouldn't hear a bad word about him. He's one of the most naturally gifted and talented footballers i have ever watched on a pitch. The fact remains, that in the four seasons Juventus were trying to build a team around him, they couldn't even get close to the scudetto Yeah, Milan were a different beast in the era, but still, a not-really-challenging second place was the best they could manage. His replacement, while not the maverick Baggio was, but a player easier to fit in the manager's plans, left a far more lasting mark. Sometimes, you are forced to reevaluate your options and your general approach. The relationship between Gerrard and Liverpool also springs to mind.

Apologies for misinterpreting the tone of your previous post.

Hit the nail on the head with the bolded part. It's always been my issue with Bruno ultimately in that I don't think it's possible to be a great side with him in your starting XI. Many thought he might change his game with a new manager but at this point in his career he is what he is. He raked in numbers under Ole because he was basically given a no limit credit card to just go wherever he wanted and try whatever he wanted on the pitch, and it coincided with a huge purple patch in pure goalscoring terms along with sort of lining up in how we preferred to play in transition. Any solid creative player could rack up assists if he had license to punt 10 straight long balls for counter attempts to Rashford making those diagonal runs. But Bruno is way too limited in his game in that if you don't give him that free roam/gunslinger license he's going to struggle to affect the game against any better sides. Very poor on the ball as a dribbler and doesn't offer any physical attributes besides huge stamina, and can't play a more controlled incisive game. Those qualities hurt us against all of the best teams.
 
Why are people clamouring for Victor Oshimen? He’s Lukaku 2.0 and we already have a better player in Rashford regardless.

I’d take Kvartshkelia if he could play on the right but sadly he can’t I doubt. Him and Rashford in a perfect world would make a great combo. Sadly play in the same position.

Bellingham I don’t mind for Bruno. Bruno is probably the better footballer currently so would have to add De Jong as well. We need a playmaker more than Bellingham.

Needed a world class playmaker for 10 years! Bellingham won’t help you with a style of play. De Jong can do that.
 
Never mind that, bar Ronaldo we've never rinsed someone for a single player sold and even then Madrid got Ronaldo for a bargain of a price given what he did for them.
Rashford hasn't signed a new contract yet so he would be available for 50m or less. I get B is a complete fantasy scenario but there is an extra 200-300m invested that could be used elsewhere in A.
 
This is funny because I was just thinking about those 3 the other day and came to the conclusion we won't improve on the ball till at least 2 of them aren't guaranteed starters anymore.

Replacing 2, then adding a non-ball playing striker?
 
Absolutely mad that there is a thread suggesting rashford needs sold for us to progress by the way haha
 
There is a split in the fanbase between some players that sacrosanct to some and we wont win with them in the team for others.
I think it’s important to outline what we count winning to be. If it’s winning the PL, you only have to look at the winners from the last 6 years to know that it takes a top class team with really great players to win it. So everyone in this team has to prove they are capable of doing that. Bruno and De Gea stand out because stylistically they are counter attack footballers and a team that sits back hasn’t won the league in aeons. You could argue that Rashford is the same as he isn’t great in tight spaces so there is an argument to be made.

Whether the other three are any better I don’t know. Serie A/ Bundesliga vs PL is a big gap.
 
This translates to the RVN departure, brilliant striker but wasn’t really complimentary to Ronaldo/Rooney and no Beckham.

Might not be true but felt like it when he left and the team as a whole started flourishing.
 
I think team B is stronger. And i like Bruno and think losing Rashford would weaken us whatever the replacement. I just think modern football is geared towards players who can do a bit of everything. Defenders who can pass and carry the ball, strikers who can defend and so on. You can argue about the choice of players but i guess i agree with the basic concept.
I think replacing de gea would probably improve us more than losing rashford would hurt us too but im not sure thats what the op was aiming at.
Realistically you cant always get mutli functional players in every single position of the level required and you have to 'make do' with a player like Rashford or Bruno. Get another midfielder and we can use Eriksen in Bruno's place when possession is at a premium. Get Sancho performing and we can drop Rashford when his dribbles and shots aren't coming off.
If the theory is right then they'll naturally fall out of the line up with the right player challenging them.
 
He's literally available for nothing at the moment and nobody wants him.
Either that or he's happy at the club and negotiating a new contract, which prospective suitors know and so aren't even bothering enquiring.
 
Team A
----------------------------De Gea
AWB------------Varane------Martinez-----------Shaw
----------------Casemiro--------Eriksen
---------------------------Bruno
Antony--------------Osimhen--------- Rashford


Team B
----------------------------Costa
AWB------------Varane------Martinez-----------Shaw
-------Casemiro-----Bellingham---Eriksen
Antony--------------Osimhen--------- Kvaratskhelia


I think Bellingham is very overhyped but Team B seems more balanced than Team A, as much as I love Bruno and Rashford.

Agree that we need an upgrade on DDG, as much as I love him too.
 
Last season when Rashford was horribly out of form and confidence and in and out the side we struggled, the season we signed Bruno the difference with and without him was massive. The last time we played without De Gea for a length of time we flourished and we're much better.
 
Depends how much we would get for Rashford, Bruno and De Gea and how much the other 3 would cost no?
Rashford - 100 mill
Brun0 - 70 mill
De Gea - 50 mill
Total - 220

Costa - 60
Kvaratskhelia - 120
Bellingham - 120
300mill

Net - 80? 100? Not impossible is it?

De Gea 50 mill. What are you smoking pal? Rashford and Bruno would probably be cheaper, specially the latter.
 
I’m beginning to come round to believing that we won’t be any good until everyone who was around the first team in the Woodward era has been purged, regardless of how talented or nice they are. The contract extension just given to Shaw shows that this isn’t happening any time soon.
 
I find it interesting there is loads of bitching and moaning and complaining about transfer fees and budget and players chosen for replacement but no one has chosen Team A
 
Hang on, even after this season, Rashford is in the "highly debatable" group? :lol:
 
Hang on, even after this season, Rashford is in the "highly debatable" group? :lol:
Its not as crazy as you think. There is a history of top players being sold/replaced and the team improving - Baggio, Coutinho, Ozil, Joe Hart already mentioned. But even at United we moved on players that were "highly debatable". Keane, Beckham, Stam etc. Sure with hindsight especially Stam was sold too soon. But the point is just because a player is playing well doesn't mean that selling them and replacing with a different skillset wouldn't be the best for the team.
 
I understand the De Gea argument, I don't agree and think we've far bigger priorities that are impossible to ignore if you're living in anything close to reality. But I get it.

But why would you possibly get rid of Fernandes and Rashford? Do you not like goals and assists? Nonsense.
 
Its not as crazy as you think. There is a history of top players being sold/replaced and the team improving - Baggio, Coutinho, Ozil, Joe Hart already mentioned. But even at United we moved on players that were "highly debatable". Keane, Beckham, Stam etc. Sure with hindsight especially Stam was sold too soon. But the point is just because a player is playing well doesn't mean that selling them and replacing with a different skillset wouldn't be the best for the team.

Hang on
 
Can we have a Team C that has Hakimi, Saka and De Jong in for AWB, Antony and Eriksen, if we are going to live in complete fantasy land?
 
We have too many players who are high-risk/high-reward counter-attacking style footballers which is really at odds with our attempted transition into a team who can control football matches.

We have to decide what type of team we want to be. If we want to be a possession-based team like City, then Bruno, DDG and arguably Rashford need to go (although might still have his uses). If we want to be a high-pressing, Klopp-style team then I feel Rashford would need to go, and DDG because we'd need a sweeper keeper.

If we want to remain a team who looks for fast transitions then Bruno and Rashford are fine and DDG isn't such a huge problem.
 
Either that or he's happy at the club and negotiating a new contract, which prospective suitors know and so aren't even bothering enquiring.
Yes because it's commonplace for players to get into the last 2/3 months of their contract without their agent even trying to make it appear that other clubs want them to get them the best deal possible. Particularly in a situation where their current employer is looking to reduce their wage by 50% or possibly even more.

So either his agent isn't doing his job properly or the only clubs that could potentially be interested in talking to him can't afford to pay him the £150k a week or so I'd imagine he's looking for, so it would be pointless taking links to them public because it would strengthen United's hand rather than his.
 
The only one of the three players mentioned who should be leaving is De Gea. Rashford shouldn't even be in the conversation here, and Bruno should only be if we are a selling club, which we are not. Bruno is a top player, who shouldn't be relied upon to do it all in every game of the season, as he is now.

We see constantly the limitations of having De Gea at the back. The last match was a prime example of this. Constantly passing to players under pressure, can't weight a short pass correctly, and causes oppo counter attacks far too often. He has been a good player for us but it's time to move on.

If we sign a new GK who is good on the ball, a midfield controller with grit who is a top passer, and a new striker who plays to the strengths of the team and our wingers, then we'll be well on our way. Obviously we also need Casemiro backup and someone needs to convincingly claim the RW , but those issues are secondary in my opinion.
 
You get other positions up to what you want until some who were not previously the weak points are now the things holding you back.

If a team simply addressed their weakest positions every summer... They would do very well. Signing a 10/10 player to replace an 8/10 player but you still have a 3/10 at DM will hold you back. Bringing in an 8/10 DM to address that hole while keeping that other 8/10 where he is will just bring the general level of the time up way more.

Bruno isn't ideal, for sure. But he's a very good player on his own right. Let's see how we do with him in the team once we address our weaknesses, some of which aren't even PL level.
  • Striker - championship level
  • DM depth - non existent
  • Goalkeeper - bottom half PL level by most metrics
And then you get to the smaller improvements where you spend big to replace a good player already. Like in CM where we have a top 4 level out of Casemiro's partner, but ideally would want someone press resistant and mobile while keeping Eriksens passing. Then you look at what are we doing at RB. Are we still being held back? Because the team should have stepped up a lot by that point. Then we address #10, by which time Bruno will be 30's anyway.

Basically, Coutinho was the last player Klopp should have been looking to replace to build his team by this logic. I’m not sure football works this way in reality.

If you are a coach with an identity, an average right back at your new club may be far less of an issue than your star striker or 10 in building the team you want. When Guardiola joined City, they had no urgent need to upgrade their goalkeeper. At least not on first appearances. However, it was probably amongst the most pressing for the manager as he could not possibly play his way with Joe Hart. It’s not as simple as ranking all players from best to worst and changing the best last. If that were the case, all these calls to replace De Gea over the years would be ridiculous, as we have worse players.

It is very feasible that a top coach could come to a club with plans to win everything and decide that replacing Lukaku or Vardy was amongst their top priorities, even if they had scored plenty of goals.
 
Its not as crazy as you think. There is a history of top players being sold/replaced and the team improving - Baggio, Coutinho, Ozil, Joe Hart already mentioned. But even at United we moved on players that were "highly debatable". Keane, Beckham, Stam etc. Sure with hindsight especially Stam was sold too soon. But the point is just because a player is playing well doesn't mean that selling them and replacing with a different skillset wouldn't be the best for the team.
That's only on the assumption that you can sell him and replace him with someone cheaper but better.... Good luck. You don't sell someone who is a wide goal threat like him with his record in big matches who is also a academy product (and a genuinely very good person amidst a sea of scumbags that you see at the top level).

The way to improve is to address weak areas. Get a striker, fix midfield partner for casemiro and his depth, get a top goalkeeper, look at right back if needed. After that? See where we are and who isn't playing at the right level, because that's 2 summers worth of transfers.
 
I find it interesting there is loads of bitching and moaning and complaining about transfer fees and budget and players chosen for replacement but no one has chosen Team A

Not sure what you find particularly interesting about it? One is our team pretty much as is, the other is our team with €200m-ish of Europe's most in demand talents poured into it. Including in two of the positions (CM and GK) most people think we need to strengthen. Along with giving us the star attacking partnership from a Napoli side that has played some of the best football in Europe this season.

Did you expect people to say "nah, we'll stick with what we have"?
 
Not sure what you find particularly interesting about it? One is our team pretty much as is, the other is our team with €200m-ish of Europe's most in demand talents poured into it.

That's a massive underestimate as well. The Napoli duo would cost the best part of 300m euros on their own.
 
Basically, Coutinho was the last player Klopp should have been looking to replace to build his team by this logic. I’m not sure football works this way in reality.

If you are a coach with an identity, an average right back at your new club may be far less of an issue than your star striker or 10 in building the team you want. When Guardiola joined City, they had no urgent need to upgrade their goalkeeper. At least not on first appearances. However, it was probably amongst the most pressing for the manager as he could not possibly play his way with Joe Hart. It’s not as simple as ranking all players from best to worst and changing the best last. If that were the case, all these calls to replace De Gea over the years would be ridiculous, as we have worse players.

It is very feasible that a top coach could come to a club with plans to win everything and decide that replacing Lukaku or Vardy was amongst their top priorities, even if they had scored plenty of goals.
True but that's finding a player who doesn't fit your style at all.

Klopp didn't look to sell Coutinho. He wanted to leave, and Barcelona paid way more than he's worth. Easy decision at that point especially if he didn't see him as key long term. Rashfords profile isn't an easy one to sign, which is why I don't see why he's part of this discussion. Bruno I see stylistically, but with the difference that nobody is paying 150m and he doesn't want to leave, so it's not something we act on. De Gea is the obvious one where his style of play actively hampers us and he just isn't very good in the first place (just like Joe Hart wasn't very good).