A team without Rashford, De Gea and Bruno

UpWithRivers

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Dec 30, 2013
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There is a split in the fanbase between some players that sacrosanct to some and we wont win with them in the team for others. Highly debatable players. Those being Rashford, De Gea and Bruno. Now lets just for argument sake say we buy a striker and then sell those 3 and replaced them. Lets also presume they adapt easily and play similar levels they are playing now.

Which team would be better over a season?

Team A
----------------------------De Gea
AWB------------Varane------Martinez-----------Shaw
----------------Casemiro--------Eriksen
---------------------------Bruno
Antony--------------Osimhen--------- Rashford


Team B
----------------------------Costa
AWB------------Varane------Martinez-----------Shaw
-------Casemiro-----Bellingham---Eriksen
Antony--------------Osimhen--------- Kvaratskhelia
 
Team B, probably. Looks far more balanced. I think Rashford is the only significant miss of the three proposed players, anyway.
 
You just illustrated how good Rashford and Bruno are. In order to replace these two we have to buy no fewer than three players. And not just three good players. We're talking three of the hottest names on the transfer marked for a combined sum of 300 million. And after all this we still have to change formation :lol:

Ah, I see that Osimhen features in both lineups. Still nuts though.
 
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I am convinced Bruno would have more assists/goals and Rashford wouldn't be given a free role if we had a striker and a right winger actually consistently scoring and creating chances. We need to get a striker and a midfielder controller before touching Bruno and Rashford. I think De Gea's future will be dictated by the budget we have in the coming window. If by some miracle Martial had stayed fit for most of the season we would have space between us and 4th place.
 
Scandi Red said:
You just illustrated how good Rashford and Bruno are. In order to replace these two we have to buy no fewer than three players. And not just three good players. We're talking three of the hottest names on the transfer marked for a combined sum of 300 million. And after all this we still have to change formation :lol:
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The only 2 players who you can rely on for us to do anything in terms of scoring a goal outside of Eriksen. Striker and Antony are the biggest issue for me. We rely too much of Rashford because of Wout and Antony.
 
sglowrider said:
Budget of 300million?
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Depends how much we would get for Rashford, Bruno and De Gea and how much the other 3 would cost no?
Rashford - 100 mill
Brun0 - 70 mill
De Gea - 50 mill
Total - 220

Costa - 60
Kvaratskhelia - 120
Bellingham - 120
300mill

Net - 80? 100? Not impossible is it?
 
This is why Osimhen doesn’t work in a team without players like Kvartshkelia.

Either buy Osimhen and a whole new creative squad - arguably all of RW, LW and CAM needs changed.

Or just find a forward that gets the best out of the inverted wingers we have.

Antony, Rashford, Garanacho, unnameable are all inverted forwards.

Our creative wide attacking midfielder type players are Amad & Sancho - with Pellestri playing out wide on his right foot being a more regular winger.

I’d go for squad A & but a different striker.
 
UpWithRivers said:
Depends how much we would get for Rashford, Bruno and De Gea and how much the other 3 would cost no?
Rashford - 100 mill
Brun0 - 70 mill
De Gea - 50 mill
Total - 220

Costa - 60
Kvaratskhelia - 120
Bellingham - 120
300mill

Net - 80? 100? Not impossible is it?
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You forgot about Osimhen.
 
I think the reason he has Osimhen is that we need a proper striker regardless of those three.
 
Why these specific lineups, if i may ask? Anyway, put Kane upfront in the first one and they'll probably win more than 5 times out of 10. Whether they would win the title is a different question.
 
UpWithRivers said:
Depends how much we would get for Rashford, Bruno and De Gea and how much the other 3 would cost no?
Rashford - 100 mill
Brun0 - 70 mill
De Gea - 50 mill
Total - 220

Costa - 60
Kvaratskhelia - 120
Bellingham - 120
300mill

Net - 80? 100? Not impossible is it?
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De Gea is out of contract in Summer and even if he wasn't we would have struggled to get fee for him 50 m is just pure delusion .

Rashford would be entering last year of his contract can't see any club paying 100 m for him either 60-70 m might be possible

Bruno might only fetch 40-50 m as his market would be limited to Clubs below top tier .
 
UpWithRivers said:
Depends how much we would get for Rashford, Bruno and De Gea and how much the other 3 would cost no?
Rashford - 100 mill
Brun0 - 70 mill
De Gea - 50 mill
Total - 220

Costa - 60
Kvaratskhelia - 120
Bellingham - 120
300mill

Net - 80? 100? Not impossible is it?
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First of all who sells a £100million player unless we are a selling club? And if Bellingham is 120m surely a pre-peak 20+goal scorer is worth more?
 
gajender said:
De Gea is out of contract in Summer and even if he wasn't we would have struggled to get fee for him 50 m is just pure delusion .

Rashford would be entering last year of his contract can't see any club paying 100 m for him either 60-70 m might be possible

Bruno might only fetch 40-50 m as his market would be limited to Clubs below top tier .
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So not only would we spend maybe 150 million net, but we'd have to get rid of two of our best players in the process. And we wouldn't necessarily improve as a team either.

And this is before mentioning the Osimhen cost that looms large in both lineups.
 
Scandi Red said:
So not only would we spend maybe 150 million net, but we'd have to get rid of two of our best players in the process. And we wouldn't necessarily improve as a team either.

And this is before mentioning the Osimhen cost that looms large in both lineups.
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I only commented on the transfer fee for our players mentioned by the poster nothing else.
Not much idea about the incoming players mentioned quality so can't comment on their prices .
 
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Some people are still arguing against Rashford? Yikes. Guess I don't venture into his performance thread often enough.

De Gea is a weakness, the only discussion is how much of a weakness relative to other weaknesses.

In the case of Bruno and Rashford, while it may indeed be possible to improve the team by replacing them it would hardly be as efficient a way of improving the team as, for example, upgrading AWB or adding a press-resistant, ball-carrying midfielder alongside Casemiro into the teams above.

And more to the point, those two at least quite clearly aren't going to be replaced any time soon. So there's little relevance to real life in discussing that particular what if.
 
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Neither of those midfields fill me with confidence. Eriksen should not be a starter if we want to challenge for trophies, while Bellingham is yet another all-action 8/10 hybrid as opposed to a midfielder who gives us more control in possession.
 
UpWithRivers said:
Depends how much we would get for Rashford, Bruno and De Gea and how much the other 3 would cost no?
Rashford - 100 mill
Brun0 - 70 mill
De Gea - 50 mill
Total - 220

Costa - 60
Kvaratskhelia - 120
Bellingham - 120
300mill

Net - 80? 100? Not impossible is it?
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No one would ever buy De Gea for 50m at this stage of his career.
 
There's a split over Rashford, yet we want to keep that absolute toothless excuse for a winger called Antony in the starting XI?
 
Are there actually people still anti Rashford? Really?

The logic with the other 2 would be just getting a #10 who is more fitting to our style than Bruno, and then getting a goalkeeper who can deal with high balls which is a basic requirement and play out from the back effectively which is a requirement for coaches like ten hag.
 
Tbf, if you take away Rashford's goals, off the ball movement and pace to stretch teams, he offers us nothing. Sell him.
 
The biggest problem in our team is we have no quality beyond the first 11 and even some question marks about the quality of the right hand side of our first 11.

I see our first 11 as;

DDG
Dalot Varane Martinez Shaw
Eriksen Casemiro
Antony Fernandes Rashford
Martial
​
Dalot has had a good season but is definitely upgradeable.
DDG is excellent at shot stopping, average at distribution - can be upgraded.
Antony - verdict is out on.
Martial - permanently injured.

These are the weakest players in our first 11, but even then, they're good players and when they play we had a very strong team. Not everyone in a first 11 is a worldie.

The drop in quality after that is horrendous.

GK - We have 2 3rd choice keepers and a second choice who wants to leave.
RB - AWB is really poor as a modern right back.
CB - Bailly, Lindelof, Maguire, Jones - all flawed or crocks, we should be shot of every one of them ASAP.
LB - Malacia seems alright
CM - DVB, Fred, McTomminay, Sabitzer - one is a loanee, the other three, who wants to keep any of them? Its a massive drop in quality.
LW/RW - Sancho? Looks like a flop for us. Elanga is average, Garnacho is an exciting prospect, Pellestri/Amad - i don't expect they'll ever be first team players with us tbh.
CF - A loanee who flopped at Burnley, an academy prospect and Greenwood? I suspect we might never see him in a United shirt again.

Right now we're playing without a functioning midfield and a striker.

The focus should not be on replacing Rashford, De Gea and Bruno, but on replacing AWB, Fred, McTomminay, Bailly, Jones.

We all know we need a striker that goes without saying.
 
Our better players in our first 11 all might have a few little questions marks over their heads but you don't start replacing them until you weed out the average/ rubbish.
 
FrankDrebin said:
Our better players in our first 11 all might have a few little questions marks over their heads but you don't start replacing them until you weed out the average/ rubbish.
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While i don't dismiss this notion, what happens if a) your manager of choice wants to instil a different brand of football than the one that suits your star players and/or b) if the maximum they can do, under a series of managers who cater to their needs, is 80 points in the league and CL quarter-finals. You keep changing the supporting cast?
 
This is funny because I was just thinking about those 3 the other day and came to the conclusion we won't improve on the ball till at least 2 of them aren't guaranteed starters anymore.
 
Idxomer said:
This is funny because I was just thinking about those 3 the other day and came to the conclusion we won't improve on the ball till at least 2 of them aren't guaranteed starters anymore.
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Thing is Rashford being a forward should get the most leeway and can be accommodated easily without much detriment to overall structure of the team , but the other two would hold United back considerably as long as they are starters .
 
gajender said:
Thing is Rashford being a forward should get the most leeway and can be accommodated easily without much detriment to overall structure of the team , but the other two would hold United back considerably as long as they are starters .
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Yeah, De Gea and Bruno are the bigger worry because their influence on the defence and midfield and ultimately our game plan is much bigger.
 
Zlatattack said:
The biggest problem in our team is we have no quality beyond the first 11 and even some question marks about the quality of the right hand side of our first 11.

I see our first 11 as;

DDG
Dalot Varane Martinez Shaw
Eriksen Casemiro
Antony Fernandes Rashford
Martial
​
Dalot has had a good season but is definitely upgradeable.
DDG is excellent at shot stopping, average at distribution - can be upgraded.
Antony - verdict is out on.
Martial - permanently injured.

These are the weakest players in our first 11, but even then, they're good players and when they play we had a very strong team. Not everyone in a first 11 is a worldie.

The drop in quality after that is horrendous.

GK - We have 2 3rd choice keepers and a second choice who wants to leave.
RB - AWB is really poor as a modern right back.
CB - Bailly, Lindelof, Maguire, Jones - all flawed or crocks, we should be shot of every one of them ASAP.
LB - Malacia seems alright
CM - DVB, Fred, McTomminay, Sabitzer - one is a loanee, the other three, who wants to keep any of them? Its a massive drop in quality.
LW/RW - Sancho? Looks like a flop for us. Elanga is average, Garnacho is an exciting prospect, Pellestri/Amad - i don't expect they'll ever be first team players with us tbh.
CF - A loanee who flopped at Burnley, an academy prospect and Greenwood? I suspect we might never see him in a United shirt again.

Right now we're playing without a functioning midfield and a striker.

The focus should not be on replacing Rashford, De Gea and Bruno, but on replacing AWB, Fred, McTomminay, Bailly, Jones.

We all know we need a striker that goes without saying.
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I agree with most of this.

In summary we need a word class no8, RB and striker.

After that, systematic upgrades of squad players or, preferably, a concerted and persistent effort to graduate academy players into the squad by trusting them and giving them proper game time (which takes guts and carries risk but doesn’t happen enough for me).
 
TheRedDevil'sAdvocate said:
While i don't dismiss this notion, what happens if a) your manager of choice wants to instil a different brand of football than the one that suits your star players and/or b) if the maximum they can do, under a series of managers who cater to their needs, is 80 points in the league and CL quarter-finals. You keep changing the supporting cast?
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You get other positions up to what you want until some who were not previously the weak points are now the things holding you back.

If a team simply addressed their weakest positions every summer... They would do very well. Signing a 10/10 player to replace an 8/10 player but you still have a 3/10 at DM will hold you back. Bringing in an 8/10 DM to address that hole while keeping that other 8/10 where he is will just bring the general level of the time up way more.

Bruno isn't ideal, for sure. But he's a very good player on his own right. Let's see how we do with him in the team once we address our weaknesses, some of which aren't even PL level.
  • Striker - championship level
  • DM depth - non existent
  • Goalkeeper - bottom half PL level by most metrics
And then you get to the smaller improvements where you spend big to replace a good player already. Like in CM where we have a top 4 level out of Casemiro's partner, but ideally would want someone press resistant and mobile while keeping Eriksens passing. Then you look at what are we doing at RB. Are we still being held back? Because the team should have stepped up a lot by that point. Then we address #10, by which time Bruno will be 30's anyway.
 
bosnian_red said:
You get other positions up to what you want until some who were not previously the weak points are now the things holding you back.

If a team simply addressed their weakest positions every summer... They would do very well. Signing a 10/10 player to replace an 8/10 player but you still have a 3/10 at DM will hold you back. Bringing in an 8/10 DM to address that hole while keeping that other 8/10 where he is will just bring the general level of the time up way more.

Bruno isn't ideal, for sure. But he's a very good player on his own right. Let's see how we do with him in the team once we address our weaknesses, some of which aren't even PL level.
  • Striker - championship level
  • DM depth - non existent
  • Goalkeeper - bottom half PL level by most metrics
And then you get to the smaller improvements where you spend big to replace a good player already. Like in CM where we have a top 4 level out of Casemiro's partner, but ideally would want someone press resistant and mobile while keeping Eriksens passing. Then you look at what are we doing at RB. Are we still being held back? Because the team should have stepped up a lot by that point. Then we address #10, by which time Bruno will be 30's anyway.
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Its not as simple as that though. Coutinho was seen as Liverpool's star man. Even more than Salah. The scousers said the same at the time - why sell a star man when we need fixes everywhere else. Same as Joe Hart. Seen as one of the best keepers. Won the prem with him. Why replace? Its not a question of if Rashford, Bruno and De Gea are bad players. They're obviously not. Its a question of would we become a better more rounded team. Ozil was the same. Class player but missing elements. There are loads of these types of players. We seem to have a few of them. World class in some aspects but lacking in others.
 
bosnian_red said:
You get other positions up to what you want until some who were not previously the weak points are now the things holding you back.

If a team simply addressed their weakest positions every summer... They would do very well. Signing a 10/10 player to replace an 8/10 player but you still have a 3/10 at DM will hold you back. Bringing in an 8/10 DM to address that hole while keeping that other 8/10 where he is will just bring the general level of the time up way more.

Bruno isn't ideal, for sure. But he's a very good player on his own right. Let's see how we do with him in the team once we address our weaknesses, some of which aren't even PL level.
  • Striker - championship level
  • DM depth - non existent
  • Goalkeeper - bottom half PL level by most metrics
And then you get to the smaller improvements where you spend big to replace a good player already. Like in CM where we have a top 4 level out of Casemiro's partner, but ideally would want someone press resistant and mobile while keeping Eriksens passing. Then you look at what are we doing at RB. Are we still being held back? Because the team should have stepped up a lot by that point. Then we address #10, by which time Bruno will be 30's anyway.
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There's no need to be sarcastic, you are much better than that. I'm just asking a question in a more general manner. The logic you are describing is what has basically kept the likes of Martial at the club for so long. And who decides who is a 3/10 player and who is an 8/10? For the job Solskjaer (or even Mourinho, who wanted him), Maguire was probably an 8/10 centre-half. For ETH, i doubt it. Given that we'll probably struggle to beat Solskajer's 74 points tally and that we most certainly won't score 73 goals, one could make a case that the midfield partnership that allowed Bruno and the rest of the gang to shine more was McFred. The numbers would support their case. But, of course, we know that Casemiro is the far superior player. So, perhaps, your star players need a particular environment to do their thing? But... their thing is going against the grain of the football ideas which are currently dominating the scene. What then? You protect the assets or you bring the right people in to help you shift direction?

So, i repeat the question. What if by the end of next season, we still remain an 80-points max team with no aspirations to go far in the CL. I'll make it easier for you. Let's imagine that Pep coaches United. I'm using him as an example because he's probably the only manager in the world who guarantees success. He walks in and says: "I come with my brand of football. I don't have any use for De Gea, Bruno and Rashford (as the OP suggests) in my system. It will take me two or three seasons to get there, but i need to start now". What are you going to do?

Klopp changed Liverpool's fates around when he brought in Firmino for Coutinho. The latter was their star player, worth more than a 100 million. By your logic, it was the wrong thing to do.
 
UpWithRivers said:
Its not as simple as that though. Coutinho was seen as Liverpool's star man. Even more than Salah. The scousers said the same at the time - why sell a star man when we need fixes everywhere else. Same as Joe Hart. Seen as one of the best keepers. Won the prem with him. Why replace? Its not a question of if Rashford, Bruno and De Gea are bad players. They're obviously not. Its a question of would we become a better more rounded team. Ozil was the same. Class player but missing elements. There are loads of these types of players. We seem to have a few of them. World class in some aspects but lacking in others.
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It's an extremely different situation. Liverpool got offered twice as much as any reasonable value that Coutinho should have had, and the player wanted to go. It worked out for them. Bruno doesn't want to leave nor is anybody offering 150m for him.

For what it's worth I don't think de Gea is a good goalkeeper. He is at best mid table level when you take it all into account, but also mid table that isn't the right fit for Ten Hag.
 
bosnian_red said:
It's an extremely different situation. Liverpool got offered twice as much as any reasonable value that Coutinho should have had, and the player wanted to go. It worked out for them. Bruno doesn't want to leave nor is anybody offering 150m for him.

For what it's worth I don't think de Gea is a good goalkeeper. He is at best mid table level when you take it all into account, but also mid table that isn't the right fit for Ten Hag.
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The premise of the post is would we be a better team if we replaced them. The semantics i.e cost, do the want to go etc is irrelevant to this debate. Which team would be better A or B?
 
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