A serious look at Michael Carrick

tomaldinho1 said:
Whilst I think we might struggle to attract the next Klopp, we've not become unappealing to 99% of managers. Barca is a poor example because they, and Ajax, have a genuine identity and youth system geared towards that specific identity.
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Okay but neither do Real, Barca or Bayern but they all signed young managers that were ex-players. The only significant difference with Arsenal was that they persevered with Arteta while the team finished 8th. Real, Barca or Bayern would never do that.

tomaldinho1 said:
What's to stop our board backing ETH in the same way Arsenal's backed Arteta given you referenced him? What would stop an older manager 'cleaning house' versus a young one?
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Firstly, It's not the manager who cleans house, it the board. I explicitly said so. No manager should be given free reign over the squad.

Why not ETH? Two things.

One, the fact that he was backed and it's not working. His tactics and team selection are not yielding results and basically none of the players (even those which he signed) are playing well under him. He's failing as a coach. His team performs much worse than the squad ability, compared even to last year. But he was backed. He was backed over Ronaldo when he was benched and then let go. He has been backed over Sancho being sent to train alone. He is being backed now with benching Varane. The whole "player power" thing is an absolute myth. He signed a new midfield (Casemiro, Amrabat, Mount) and 2/3 new forwards (Hojlund, Antony) while promoting from a youth a for the 3rd (Garnacho). It's not the player power of Rashford or Martial who is letting him down, he can bench any of them. It's him failing to get a tune out of any of his signings and the whole team, that's his problem. No one would give a feck about Rashford or Martial or Sancho if his signings worked and he could get the team to play well without them. Like very few gave a feck when Ronaldo was ousted last season.

Two, he pressed for more manager power. And he made an absolute mess of it. Arteta was thankful for the Arsenal job. He didn't do the thing ETH did, which was to press for Rangnick to leave as condition for joining. He shouldn't have been given as much power over transfers, agreed, but that's the scenario I talked about of reputable managers being given too much power at United because we're otherwise a poisoned chalice. Would ETH now accept someone above him taking more control of the transfers? At the beginning he didn't. Perhaps now, that he feels threatened, he would. Although imo he has now failed as a coach and he needs to be sacked. But I know for sure that Carrick wouldn't mind though. That's the point of the young manager, it allows the board to function without manager power.
 
Hernandez - BFA said:
Apart from McKenna's link of working under Ole - does he have any other link with us? Is he a known United fan or something?
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Yeah he’s a United fan. Was a big factor in him joining from Spurs. I’d argue it’s too soon but then people want De Zerbi and I’m not sure what he’s actually achieved to manage this club either.
 
MadMike said:
Okay but neither do Real, Barca or Bayern but they all signed young managers that were ex-players. The only significant difference with Arsenal was that they persevered with Arteta while the team finished 8th. Real, Barca or Bayern would never do that.



Firstly, It's not the manager who cleans house, it the board. I explicitly said so. No manager should be given free reign over the squad.

Why not ETH? Two things.

One, the fact that he was backed and it's not working. His tactics and team selection are not yielding results and basically none of the players (even those which he signed) are playing well under him. He's failing as a coach. His team performs much worse than the squad ability, compared even to last year. But he was backed. He was backed over Ronaldo when he was benched and then let go. He has been backed over Sancho being sent to train alone. He is being backed now with benching Varane. The whole "player power" thing is an absolute myth. He signed a new midfield (Casemiro, Amrabat, Mount) and 2/3 new forwards (Hojlund, Antony) while promoting from a youth a for the 3rd (Garnacho). It's not the player power of Rashford or Martial who is letting him down, he can bench any of them. It's him failing to get a tune out of any of his signings and the whole team, that's his problem. No one would give a feck about Rashford or Martial or Sancho if his signings worked and he could get the team to play well without them. Like very few gave a feck when Ronaldo was ousted last season.

Two, he pressed for more manager power. And he made an absolute mess of it. Arteta was thankful for the Arsenal job. He didn't do the thing ETH did, which was to press for Rangnick to leave as condition for joining. He shouldn't have been given as much power over transfers, agreed, but that's the scenario I talked about of reputable managers being given too much power at United because we're otherwise a poisoned chalice. Would ETH now accept someone above him taking more control of the transfers? At the beginning he didn't. Perhaps now, that he feels threatened, he would. Although imo he has now failed as a coach and he needs to be sacked. But I know for sure that Carrick wouldn't mind though. That's the point of the young manager, it allows the board to function without manager power.
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First point you're just being pedantic - you know what I mean - why not just do it now with ETH at the helm? Your point seemed to have been centred on a young manager being good for clearing house but why? What is it about a young manager that makes that true? You don't know anything 'for sure', you can't just write stuff liek that and not expect people to think it's a bit foolish.

Second point - the fact you say player power is a myth makes me wonder where you've been the last few years? There's no doubt ETH has disappointed this season but there are a number of caveats and he's faced more off field issues than any manager I can think of. In my mind he's an ideal candidate to clean house with - there's already unrest, let him be the focus of the negatives, then if he turns it around, that's great, but more likely a new manager comes in after him to the luxury of a dressing room without many of its problem players.
 
I sort of agree with @MadMike: EtH was given too much power in terms of transfer policy. Where me and him differ is that I'd be willing to give EtH a bit more time as long as he relinquished authority on transfers and just focused on training. Clearing out the deadwood/malcontents cannot be placed on a coach alone. That has to be done by someone else

If EtH was sacked or he resigned, I would not be against Carrick. The idea that he needs to perform miracles at Middlesbrough to be qualified for us is ridiculous. By all accounts he's doing a great job at Middlesbrough, but I'm curious as to the specifics. Is he great at forging a team identity on the training field? Can he work with a DoF? If so, feck it, bring him on.
 
adexkola said:
I sort of agree with @MadMike: EtH was given too much power in terms of transfer policy. Where me and him differ is that I'd be willing to give EtH a bit more time as long as he relinquished authority on transfers and just focused on training. Clearing out the deadwood/malcontents cannot be placed on a coach alone. That has to be done by someone else

If EtH was sacked or he resigned, I would not be against Carrick. The idea that he needs to perform miracles at Middlesbrough to be qualified for us is ridiculous. By all accounts he's doing a great job at Middlesbrough, but I'm curious as to the specifics. Is he great at forging a team identity on the training field? Can he work with a DoF? If so, feck it, bring him on.
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McKenna is performing miracles at Ipswich though so I don’t understand why we’d hire Carrick over McKenna.
 
Mickeza said:
McKenna is performing miracles at Ipswich though so I don’t understand why we’d hire Carrick over McKenna.
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Probably because Carrick fits the mould of the old central midfield football mastermind everyone is gagging for with the success of Pep, the emergence of Arteta and the freshness of Alonso in the BuLi.

There’s no particular narrative for McKenna.
 
Would rather chop my own cock off or worse re-appoint Ole
 
Mickeza said:
McKenna is performing miracles at Ipswich though so I don’t understand why we’d hire Carrick over McKenna.
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Middlesborough are playing Ipswich this Saturday so a good opportunity to look at both managers.
 
Mickeza said:
McKenna is performing miracles at Ipswich though so I don’t understand why we’d hire Carrick over McKenna.
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I need to learn more about what he's doing at Ipswich.

And I'm skeptical of miraculous exploits. Is it luck, or is it superior coaching ability? Are results outpacing underlying stats?
 
tomaldinho1 said:
First point you're just being pedantic - you know what I mean - why not just do it now with ETH at the helm? Your point seemed to have been centred on a young manager being good for clearing house but why? What is it about a young manager that makes that true? You don't know anything 'for sure', you can't just write stuff liek that and not expect people to think it's a bit foolish.
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I explained multiple times why, I don't really see what you don't get. Because a young manager with limited experience is extremely unlikely, if not certain, to acquiesce to board control over the transfers. Carrick or MacKenna have not coached any top players in their limited careers. It's practically impossible to think they will come here and they will want to bring players with them, from where Ipswich and M'boro? They will gladly take players recommended by the board.

tomaldinho1 said:
Second point - the fact you say player power is a myth makes me wonder where you've been the last few years? There's no doubt ETH has disappointed this season but there are a number of caveats and he's faced more off field issues than any manager I can think of. In my mind he's an ideal candidate to clean house with - there's already unrest, let him be the focus of the negatives, then if he turns it around, that's great, but more likely a new manager comes in after him to the luxury of a dressing room without many of its problem players.
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I've been right here, I just have the clarity of eyesight to know that different people wearing the same shirt are not the same people. The squad changes significantly year on year. The squad is much different than the one Ole inherited for example. And he has been given the power to clear the ones he doesn't like, I already gave you the examples. But that cannot continue while the team and the players he signed play like dogshit. You say that in your mind ETH is the ideal candidate to do the clear out job. But when you clear out the old you also at the same time build something new. The problems is that what he's building looks like complete dogshit. What is it in ETH that gives such confidence that a) he'll accept relinquishing transfer control and b) he'll actually get the team playing good football, when he completely abandoned that according to his own sayings.

Nothing, is my answer, I have absolutely no confidence in what he is doing any more.
 
adexkola said:
I need to learn more about what he's doing at Ipswich.

And I'm skeptical of miraculous exploits. Is it luck, or is it superior coaching ability? Are results outpacing underlying stats?
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I don’t follow them enough to know about underlying stats. I just know outside of the usual gaggle of morons on here he’s been regarded as one of the best young coaches in the country for some time - our 18s were brilliant under him - and when he left mitten et al all said the feeling was he would definitely manage a top 6 EPL club one day so what he’s doing at Ipswich isn’t surprising.

The obvious argument against McKenna is that any run of poor form the media and thus the online fandom will destroy him for having zero experience or qualifications for the job. He won’t get any time here. But that’s true of a De Zerbi or a Carrick too.
 
Mickeza said:
McKenna is performing miracles at Ipswich though so I don’t understand why we’d hire Carrick over McKenna.
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I don't know much about McKenna, is all, but I wouldn't be against it. I know Carrick, football playing qualities aside, from this post-match interviews and his short sting as our caretaker manager. I was always impressed with him, he seemed smart, switched on and a good communicator.
 
Mickeza said:
The obvious argument against McKenna is that any run of poor form the media and thus the online fandom will destroy him for having zero experience or qualifications for the job. He won’t get any time here. But that’s true of a De Zerbi or a Carrick too.
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The point of a strong football directorate is to a) recognise the difference between form/luck and coaching. b) not be influenced by media and pundits. That means knowing to sack managers when they've got nothing new to give and their cycle seems over and persevering with them it's just a blip of bad form in the face of otherwise decent progress.

Without good direction from the top, any manager would be doomed. My point about young/new managers, is that they don't bring the baggage of reputation, high demands or primadonna behaviour with them. They are more amenable to board control. Which is what we need to have if we are to avoid a wasteful, expensive and inefficient squad rebuild every 3 years.
 
Maybe Carrick and McKenna joint act? They might need somebody who knows the club inside out to tie it all together, maybe Ole.
 
MadMike said:
The point of a strong football directorate is to a) recognise the difference between form/luck and coaching. b) not be influenced by media and pundits. That means knowing to sack managers when they've got nothing new to give and their cycle seems over and persevering with them it's just a blip of bad form in the face of otherwise decent progress.

Without good direction from the top, any manager would be doomed. My point about young/new managers, is that they don't bring the baggage of reputation, high demands or primadonna behaviour with them. They are more amenable to board control. Which is what we need to have if we are to avoid a wasteful, expensive and inefficient squad rebuild every 3 years.
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I completely agree in principle but the toxicity and noise that surrounds Manchester United when we dare to lose a few games is just insane and it would take incredible leadership to ignore that. I don’t think a manager finishing 8th, 8th and 5th would ever be allowed to keep their job here for example.
 
Mickeza said:
I completely agree in principle but the toxicity and noise that surrounds Manchester United when we dare to lose a few games is just insane and it would take incredible leadership to ignore that.
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It would just take leadership that isn't bitchmade

What are the online fans going to do? Poll the club into sacking the manager? What are the matchgoing fans going to do, stop attending matches?

I don't understand this idea of a toxic fan base influencing club decisions. They have no say apart from not spending money on the club anymore, but that's a nuclear option that few fans take.
 
I think him and McKenna are great short notice options if we have to get rid of Ten Hag mid season. I enjoyed Carrick’s football in the very brief moment he was manager, the set up was well spaced and organised, plus he dropped Bruno in his first game in charge which is a bit of a flex.
 
adexkola said:
It would just take leadership that isn't bitchmade

What are the online fans going to do? Poll the club into sacking the manager? What are the matchgoing fans going to do, stop attending matches?

I don't understand this idea of a toxic fan base influencing club decisions. They have no say apart from not spending money on the club anymore, but that's a nuclear option that few fans take.
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If you don’t think the constant negative noise in the media impacts how this football club and the people in it operate - including the players - then I don’t know what to tell you.
 
Mickeza said:
I completely agree in principle but the toxicity and noise that surrounds Manchester United when we dare to lose a few games is just insane and it would take incredible leadership to ignore that. I don’t think a manager finishing 8th, 8th and 5th would ever be allowed to keep their job here for example.
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Arsenal had finished 5th, 6th, 5th the 3 years prior to Arteta's reign. They didn't go from 2nd and 3rd finished to suddenly out of Europe. It wasn't as much of a shock. Also they didn't have the money (compared to the rest) to effect a quicker transformation.

That said, I thought Arteta was also a bit lucky. After finishing 8th for a second time I though he would/should get sacked. Coming back from that was very unlikely but he did it. I assume the key here is that he had good relationship and understanding with Edu and the board, who a) took control of the transfer policy and b) shielded him while this went on.

Without an ownership with ambition and CEO/DoF with vision and balls to carry it out, we won't go anywhere anyway. No matter who's the manager.
 
I think he at least needs to prove himself in the top flight before we start talking about him as the next United manager. I'd take a serious look at De Zerbi, not Carrick. Not yet.
 
What am I missing here? You'd think Carrick was in automatic promotion the way some people was talking. He's twelfth. It's fine. Even decent, but come on; let's not compare Carrick to even McKenna at this point.

McKenna is handing his ass to him.
 
Mickeza said:
If you don’t think the constant negative noise in the media impacts how this football club and the people in it operate - including the players - then I don’t know what to tell you.
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I'm not disagreeing with you.

I'm also saying as a result, the current leadership is bitchmade.

They don't have to be influenced by the current negative noise.
 
I was very impressed with Carrick and the respect he had with the players in his short stint.

Really him and McKenna should stay away as it's unlikely they'll be kept on in the summer and are both doing well for themselves.
 
Who's coaching Girona?
Well, we're obviously not gonna get him easily considering they're part of the City group.

So, Xabi Alonso then.
Again, not easy considering he's ex Liverpool.

De Zerbi? Flavour of the month. Worth considering?

Zidane? With this lot of walkers on the field? Yikes. Besides, he wouldn't come.

That's it then.

We're going the United route. Carrick? Ah well.
 
Ole's screen said:
I think people fundamentally see football club structures wrong. To me the point of a football club is to be inward focused - to have an identity and a philosophy of football all of their own based on their roots and history, that goes right through the club up to the first team.

People are so snobbish about our own history, as though we as a club just need to adopt other club’s footballing philosophies because we ourselves are hollow and have nothing to offer. They just wanna be another City, while mocking their hollowness.

The worst mistake post Ferguson remains allowing Moyes to fire our entire back room staff and bring in the Everton lot.
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100%
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
Director of Football/Sporting Director first.

So we just target players for the club regardless of manager tbh, like Liverpool/Brighton do. So we don't end up with random dross etc.
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This. Changing managers wouldn't truly change our fortunes until we have the right support system in place.
 
MadMike said:
I explained multiple times why, I don't really see what you don't get. Because a young manager with limited experience is extremely unlikely, if not certain, to acquiesce to board control over the transfers. Carrick or MacKenna have not coached any top players in their limited careers. It's practically impossible to think they will come here and they will want to bring players with them, from where Ipswich and M'boro? They will gladly take players recommended by the board.



I've been right here, I just have the clarity of eyesight to know that different people wearing the same shirt are not the same people. The squad changes significantly year on year. The squad is much different than the one Ole inherited for example. And he has been given the power to clear the ones he doesn't like, I already gave you the examples. But that cannot continue while the team and the players he signed play like dogshit. You say that in your mind ETH is the ideal candidate to do the clear out job. But when you clear out the old you also at the same time build something new. The problems is that what he's building looks like complete dogshit. What is it in ETH that gives such confidence that a) he'll accept relinquishing transfer control and b) he'll actually get the team playing good football, when he completely abandoned that according to his own sayings.

Nothing, is my answer, I have absolutely no confidence in what he is doing any more.
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I don't get it because it doesn't make sense. Maybe if ETH had just arrived and then the board took control of transfers oging back on what was agreed or if he was one of the real elite of the elite managers and could just walk into another top job it might. You seem to be suggesting we should essentially pick someone unqualified because they won't rock the boat, that is bottom of the barrel thinking. The reality is the board could (and should) say to ETH, you have now had the players you wanted, now the scouting team will recommend players based on specific positions in the team we need to fill.

Your memory/eyesight needs testing then - from Ole's tenure AWB, Maguire, Pellestri, Varane, Fernandes, Lindelof, Shaw, McT, Rashford, Martial all have featured this season - his signings of Sancho, Ronaldo and now Varane are probably ETH's biggest headaches, he also caused a toxic situation with VdB who is still here. As debates on the caf go, that was maybe the easiest reply I have ever written.

I'm not sure on ETH candidly, I like some things he's done but the midfield setup of Case/Mount/Bruno I called from day 1 as a disaster and assumed (and still do) Mount will end up just getting minutes at 10 and the wings. The midfield is really my main disappointment. What I like is what's causing all the headlines though, he is taking on big names and we need more of this. I think this is the biggest flaw with your idea that Carrick could come in and freeze out players he's mates with, it just wouldn't happen. Hence going back to my original point that right now, this club must avoid any kind of former player or nostalgic appointment - this team needs its mentality shifted aggressively.
 
You lot are talking of bringing back Carrick and McKenna? Wow. We are truly in the pits.

God help this club I've loved since a boy.
 
So let me get this straight?

Most people lambast ETH due to the fact that his only major experience is managing in the Eredevise.

And the solution to that is to hire a manager who's only major stint was in the Championship.

Got it. Cool
 
ArmaDino said:
So let me get this straight?

Most people lambast ETH due to the fact that his only major experience is managing in the Eredevise.

And the solution to that is to hire a manager who's only major stint was in the Championship.

Got it. Cool
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Stop making stuff up there are only few who have bought this up , most lambast ETH for what they are or not seeing on the pitch at United .

There have been plenty of examples of Coaches with limited or even no experience working out so If the new board feels Carrick or any other young coach has the requisite attributes to succeed then we should have no issues Us going in that direction .
 
The only manager I can think of that can replace eth is Ancelotti. He is a seasoned winner who had thrived under some of the most demanding owners and who has experience in handling huge ego's.

The guy would be at the club for long enough for Ineos to set things up and to get rid of all the rubbish. Only then we can look at younger managers
 
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