Okay, I can't resist asking at this point. Who is saying this? And yes, I know you meant "blips".
A reminder on Liverpool, Arsenal, City's ascend
- Thread starter Alek M
- Start date
Okay, I can't resist asking at this point. Who is saying this? And yes, I know you meant "blips".
No idea why anyone brings in Klopp and Pep, those two are just on a different level. Anyone suddenly expecting ETH to be that good is living in a dream world.
The club still needs huge overhaul that will take a while, it’s very difficult to see how they can possibly retain a manager whose stock is so low to be part of that. We are completely inept against any decent team and repeat the same errors every time we face one, that along with the dreadful recruitment does the manager no favours.
The club still needs huge overhaul that will take a while, it’s very difficult to see how they can possibly retain a manager whose stock is so low to be part of that. We are completely inept against any decent team and repeat the same errors every time we face one, that along with the dreadful recruitment does the manager no favours.
No evidence of this at all. In fact evidence is to the contrary.
I remember people bringing a lot Klopp when trying to defend your previous manager, Ole, and it was a very silly comparison back then and it still is. Guardiola is a manager in it's own class right now and he was already a very condecorated and proven manager before joining Manchester City.
The comparison with Arteta feels more valid as Arsenal stuck with him despite some not very impressive league finishes. However with Arteta and Klopp (specially with Klopp) it was noticeable the improvement in the way they were playing long before3 full seasons had passed. It shouldn't take 3 full seasons to notice the impact of a manager, at that point is more like a gamble (or maybe delusion) rather than a calculated risk.
The comparison with Arteta feels more valid as Arsenal stuck with him despite some not very impressive league finishes. However with Arteta and Klopp (specially with Klopp) it was noticeable the improvement in the way they were playing long before3 full seasons had passed. It shouldn't take 3 full seasons to notice the impact of a manager, at that point is more like a gamble (or maybe delusion) rather than a calculated risk.
It’s this kind of thread that epitomises where we are as a club, misguided comparisons to clubs in a very different context to our own. I don’t think anyone on here would be so disenchanted with our current league position if we were playing like Tottenham now. The point is being lost on so many people, I like others want to see an identity forming, a clear ethos and style of play instead of Moments FC !
What the heck is this shit again, with the comparisons to Klopp and Pep? Arteta, sure. Excellent comparison and supports the general point of the OP. But the mental gymnastics involving other two?Every fecking time! I mean, OP even had to go back in time and change the course of events like who joined their club when, to make his point.
Klopp did the double over City with the team he inherited right away. The aggregate score was 7-1. The quickfire goals in those games? Yeah, that was the signature. Their main striker at that time was Benteke, whom he promptly benched and started working towards building the famed front three.
He knocked us out of the EL along with a Dortmund in full flow. Remember that 4-3 comeback win at that bloody stadium in the last minute? He couldn't have signalled progress more if he sent up flares at the end of that night.
Thankfully he just kept faltering at finals repeatedly. Otherwise, they didn't lose a knockout European tie for years. Imagine that shit. A season in the EL plus two in the CL. Didn't get knocked out once. If Klopp signed for us, he'd have a statue by now.
Right from the beginning, it was obvious that Klopp was limited by a defence led by Lovren with Mignolet at the back. Meant that they often needed 2 or 3 goals to win away games. Of course that's not doable.
But at the other end, even before Mane and Salah turned up, they were scoring goals for fun. The problem in defence was obvious and once they hit that Coutinho lottery, the result was inevitable.
Seriously, people! No one claimed that Klopp was perfect from day one. But right away, it was very clear what his Liverpool team could look like at their best. The only issue was consistency and raising the floor of their performances and that's what's behind cherry picked stats like "managed only 6 wins in 18 games against bottom 3 teams." But the fecking ceiling? You had to be blind not to see it and be worried by it.
Have we had even 10 matches over two seasons against top-10 teams or good European teams that show what ETH's Man utd could like "at their best"? This question is absolutely genuine, because I can't come up with that sort of a list.
Good posts, I was wondering if I was the only one thinking the comparisons where quite mental.
Yes, that's why I said "in my opinion". There was a lot of positives last season and he did a lot right at Ajax ( I know united operate at another level). What evidence do show us is that changing managers while the inept structure stays the same is pointless.
He has an expensively assembled squad. Many players of his own choice and familiarity. Yet in 18+ months we are running around clueless in most games we play. Am not sure what "structure" has to do with it.
These 3 had clear and visible plan ongoing even while the results were inconsistent.
United's main issue is we have no plan at all and are just hoping with time Ten Hag will turn into a success.
This thread was also done for the previous 3 managers and they all ended up sacked. Just waiting for it to click without any basis for just optimism isn't going to get you results. You just make it look like time alone will solve everything. It doesn't.
It would have been easier to support Ten Hag if he's trying to at least, at least, play some coherent football, but the guy literally revived the Fellaini strategy from LVG and Mourinho days, using Scott as a target to hoof the ball into the box for him to score while ruining any possibility of us controlling the midfield. He said, in his own words, that he's not going to implement his Ajax football here, which was what people were raving about from the start when we hired him.
So point me to what project Ten Hag is implementing at United to warrant support and faith he'll turn it with time ?
United's main issue is we have no plan at all and are just hoping with time Ten Hag will turn into a success.
This thread was also done for the previous 3 managers and they all ended up sacked. Just waiting for it to click without any basis for just optimism isn't going to get you results. You just make it look like time alone will solve everything. It doesn't.
It would have been easier to support Ten Hag if he's trying to at least, at least, play some coherent football, but the guy literally revived the Fellaini strategy from LVG and Mourinho days, using Scott as a target to hoof the ball into the box for him to score while ruining any possibility of us controlling the midfield. He said, in his own words, that he's not going to implement his Ajax football here, which was what people were raving about from the start when we hired him.
So point me to what project Ten Hag is implementing at United to warrant support and faith he'll turn it with time ?
The comparison with Arteta might be valid actually. Team got better from Emery and finished the season strong with the FA cup win, playing well - not great, but well. Then they regressed massively and were really mediocre the following season and it continued into the next, right until Arteta fecked off Aubameyang. Then Arsenal turned great overnight. Last season's only suprised people who didn't pay attention to the second half of 21/22.
Sooooo...find your Aubameyang?
Sooooo...find your Aubameyang?
Klopp came in and signed the likes of Salah, Mane, VVD and Allison.
ETH is a good coach but his diabolic transfers have hindered him.. £2t0m on Antony, Mount, Onana and Hojlund, and then the supporting cast of the likes of an old Casemiro, the injured LB guy and one or two others I can't even remember.. that's where his failure is and will stem from.
ETH is a good coach but his diabolic transfers have hindered him.. £2t0m on Antony, Mount, Onana and Hojlund, and then the supporting cast of the likes of an old Casemiro, the injured LB guy and one or two others I can't even remember.. that's where his failure is and will stem from.
They also spent quite a lot of money on players that have largely been good for them. Odegaard, Zinchenko, Jesus, White, Trossard and now Rice.
Our equivalent to that lot would be Mount, Antony, Onana, Hojlund and one or two others and they've largely been crap. Even Casemiro who was one of the good players last season looks half finished now.
Odegaard and White were much of a muchness for them right until Arteta kicked Auba off the team. Then they got good. Same with Xhaka, Thomas, Gabriel, etc, etc. Saka and Martinelli were the only players good all along. And again, Arsenal were genuinely great in the second half of 21/22. Good summer signings made them even better, but it was a side trending way up
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Very good points and it's not a surprise it's objective coming from a neutral. There hasn't been any outstanding managers since Sir Alex retired that's come to United.
That champions league final was played at the end of Klopps 3rd season at Liverpool.
Who is that certain forward in our team who also has a play style depending on pace... Hmm
Arteta was former player and captain of them. This played huge role. Just like Ole in 19-20 survived after 17th game with 25 point, less than Mourinho's (sacked after 17th game with only 26 points). Arteta was not expected to entirely better than Emery. Also remember their long term influential manager, Wenger at the end was not successful. They had been EL level team which did't change for the worse under Arteta. It sounds weird, but even though Wenger was not very successful when he got sacked, the foundation in playing style he laid was easier for other coaches to build on in the long run, than all of our overhaul. That is before we look at their structure which was ahead of us because they don't try to it their way like us.
Won FA Cup beating Man City and Chelsea on the way in his partial season, gave them some false belief. His consecutive 8th finish coincidentally fell in COVID football behind closed door period, which negated the negative from match goers, especially the ArsenalFAMTV crowd.
The fifth place finish season coincidentally was in All or Nothing filming season, which helped putting Arteta in a better light to Arsenal fan. This season even though they eventually missed out top 4, they mostly did well in most part to be around there. Last but not least, Arsenal had been actively changing their structure even agh the end of Wenger time. The upper management that got Arteta in again was a different one than the one that got Emery. They back Arteta because he is their choice. Keeping Emery wouldn't be bad choice with hindsight, but they can only work with what they trust.
In comparison, even if SAF is out of the way, ETH would be compared to LVG, Mourinho, Ole, whom to different degree can achieve CL football and Mourinho especially . So ETH had no reason to coach awful style of play just like his predecessors, while at the same time failing as bad. If the need more time excuse is given out, then all the like of Moyes, LVG, Mourinho, Ole could have benefited from it. ETH got more power to chop troublesome players than previous managers due to Murtough hide from his responsibility whereas Woodward was actively interfering and enabling players power. For example: ETH could veto DDG contract extension, whereas the club ran by Woodward would go extend contract of Martial, Rojo; opened contract talk with Pogba even when managers didn't approve it.
ETH first season was good, but it was not roaring success that you would stop you from trying with another Mourinho, Ole equivalent (winning same level of trophies, achieving similar decent CL top 4 finish).
Won FA Cup beating Man City and Chelsea on the way in his partial season, gave them some false belief. His consecutive 8th finish coincidentally fell in COVID football behind closed door period, which negated the negative from match goers, especially the ArsenalFAMTV crowd.
The fifth place finish season coincidentally was in All or Nothing filming season, which helped putting Arteta in a better light to Arsenal fan. This season even though they eventually missed out top 4, they mostly did well in most part to be around there. Last but not least, Arsenal had been actively changing their structure even agh the end of Wenger time. The upper management that got Arteta in again was a different one than the one that got Emery. They back Arteta because he is their choice. Keeping Emery wouldn't be bad choice with hindsight, but they can only work with what they trust.
In comparison, even if SAF is out of the way, ETH would be compared to LVG, Mourinho, Ole, whom to different degree can achieve CL football and Mourinho especially . So ETH had no reason to coach awful style of play just like his predecessors, while at the same time failing as bad. If the need more time excuse is given out, then all the like of Moyes, LVG, Mourinho, Ole could have benefited from it. ETH got more power to chop troublesome players than previous managers due to Murtough hide from his responsibility whereas Woodward was actively interfering and enabling players power. For example: ETH could veto DDG contract extension, whereas the club ran by Woodward would go extend contract of Martial, Rojo; opened contract talk with Pogba even when managers didn't approve it.
ETH first season was good, but it was not roaring success that you would stop you from trying with another Mourinho, Ole equivalent (winning same level of trophies, achieving similar decent CL top 4 finish).
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Second full season. After a EL final in his first partial season, followed by CL qualification in the second, then CL final+top 4 in the 3rd(and performances not matching results in the league either, every intelligent analyst saw them as the team to challenge City going forward based on their league performances)
His third season. In his first season he was appointed in October. So that counts as full season
Rashford and Martial? It seems a lot harder at United, think they'll let go Ten Hag first before doing that.
Potato, po-tah-to. Point is the upward curve was constant season to season. The only false step was the covid compressed season where they went most of it with CBs signed from league one in mega emergency and their forwards forgot how to score for a couple of months. Then they nearly pulled off the quadruple the following season once they were fit again...
Any guess about this time of the season in Arteta’s second season where were Arsenal on the table?????
15th spot. Goal dif -4. 15 points from the top of the table. 5 wins, 8 losses.
15th spot. Goal dif -4. 15 points from the top of the table. 5 wins, 8 losses.
I have the same feeling for Ange. No excuses of needing his own players and time to implement his attacking football style of play. He improves Spurs drastically with the mediocre squad.
Someone's already addressed this. Arteta was a rookie manager, with no management experience so it was expected he'd struggle as he was managing a massive club. Ten Hag has no such excuse. And even then he's improved season on season. He's got rid of the all the poisonous toxic dressing room influences, sold the deadwood and focused on the youth. That's the point at which anti-Arteta fans like me got on his fan-train, as we could see he's trying to make a change. While United do the opposite. Its absolutely unreal how Martial, Evans etc are still at the club. Its a joke Sancho is getting £350,000 a week playing FIFA every week. It speaks volumes how McTominay plays every game despite being on sale in the summer, and the games he does play I doubt even he knows his real position. Its pathetic Rashford's attitude is tolerated at a club such as Man Utd.
At Arsenal such people have been booted out last 2-3 years mercilessly. Maybe add that in your comparisons. I am not even a Utd fan and I am absolutely astounded at how these shitte standards are tolerated by people. 80% of your team would be sold if Sir Alex was here, that's how awfully lazy and poor their standards are on the pitch.
No it doesn't. What are you on about? Klopp had no input on any summer dealings, any summer plans or transfers and picked up a team in a mess left by the previous manager. Ofcourse it doesn't count as a full season. And again you ignored his 2 finals in this pointless comparison.
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That's 13 games. We're at 18 now. No point in looking at the date.
He took over mid season, finished 8th. Finished 8th again in his first full season and then 5th. The jump from 5th to 2nd was quite the big one.
If you want to compare his second 8th to ours now then we need 11 more wins from our remaining 20 to equal his point tally. Hell, we need 10 more wins to equal Ole's sacking season.
Wouldn't called it a drastic improvement. They suffered in their 2nd season with Conte which is the norm but only 2 years ago they finished 4th and this season they won't finish higher than that. That's a Spurs average if we look back at the previous 14 seasons. The main takeaway is that they got back to good Spurs without Kane.
That was an abysmal stretch he was lucky to survive. But Arteta really hadn’t had the chance to reshape his team at that point (the only players he had bought for meaningful fees were Gabriel and Partey, the latter of which was injured almost all that fall). And he then followed this period up with a fairly promising second half of the season, even if the side still finished eighth.
The thing with Arteta is that while initial results were mediocre he inherited a genuine shitshow and there was always a strong argument for giving the guy an opportunity to build a team. And the more opportunity he had to do that, the better the football and better the results.
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Obviously many of us were alarmed when ETH said at the start of the season thst he wants us to play transition football. Sorry to say but for long-suffering United fans that's codeword for clueless, moments fc football, and not what he was brought in for. We'd have gone for Conte otherwise, no?
https://theathletic.com/4733210/2023/08/07/manchester-united-best-transitional-team/
https://theathletic.com/4733210/2023/08/07/manchester-united-best-transitional-team/
Correct. Klopp qualified them for the CL in his second season. In his third season, which was their first go at the Champions League under Klopp (and only their 2nd participation in something like 8 years), he got them to a final. In his fourth season he got them to another final and they won it this time.
I still remember when Arsenal fans wanted Arteta sacked. A few signings and now they are challenging for titles. Recruitment is key.
I like how this bump is supposed to make things seem better
Better record compared to Arsenal's disastrous season at some random point in time, get in!I like how this bump is supposed to make things seem better
not in some random time. It’s a reminder where Arsenal were In December during Arteta’s second season similar to how long ETH has been on.