A Detailed Look at United's Finances

[BenitoSTARR]

The Glazers have been a total disaster for the club. When they finally leave and their debt is cleared it will be one of the best days in United's history as the club will start growing again. However, until then, we're stuck with the Glazers treating us as their personal ATM machine.

It might be unpopular but they haven’t been a total disaster for the club. I agree from 2010-2014 we really did feel the impact of the debt but our commercial power which is one of the reasons we can thrive in a post covid market wouldn’t be anywhere near the levels it is without them driving it forward (perhaps out of necessity of servicing debts and being profitable long term).

I hate them as much as anyone else and I think the way they took over should not be allowed but the club has been growing financially and to suggest otherwise isn’t true.

The good news is we are currently on schedule to service the debt over the next 9 years in which time we’ll have a massive commercial market share, no debt and hopefully a young side that has matured into PL winners. We’re already growing but the rate of investment could eclipse any club in world football if we manage ourselves well for the next decade.

The next stage for me will be the renovation of Old Trafford whether the Glazers will want to stick around for that is certainly up for debate.

I personally think that we’ve dealt with the worst of them and soon they’ll want to sell up. The problem we have is that we’ve potentially priced ourselves out of a sale. Tifo Football did a decent job of explaining this in a video today

 

[UnitedFan93]

It might be unpopular but they haven’t been a total disaster for the club. I agree from 2010-2014 we really did feel the impact of the debt but our commercial power which is one of the reasons we can thrive in a post covid market wouldn’t be anywhere near the levels it is without them driving it forward (perhaps out of necessity of servicing debts and being profitable long term).

I hate them as much as anyone else and I think the way they took over should not be allowed but the club has been growing financially and to suggest otherwise isn’t true.

The good news is we are currently on schedule to service the debt over the next 9 years in which time we’ll have a massive commercial market share, no debt and hopefully a young side that has matured into PL winners. We’re already growing but the rate of investment could eclipse any club in world football if we manage ourselves well for the next decade.

The next stage for me will be the renovation of Old Trafford whether the Glazers will want to stick around for that is certainly up for debate.

I personally think that we’ve dealt with the worst of them and soon they’ll want to sell up. The problem we have is that we’ve potentially priced ourselves out of a sale. Tifo Football did a decent job of explaining this in a video today

Fair enough

Personally, I feel that the commercial expertise that the Glazers have brought in is massively overrated. United were already a commercial powerhouse with world record sponsorship deals way before the Glazers arrived, and it could be argued that our commercial advantage over other clubs was much bigger back then than it is now. Other clubs like Liverpool are starting to close the gap because they are seeing success on the pitch.

The fact that United were miles ahead of everyone in every aspect of a football club gave the Glazers wriggle room to do what they have. Back then we were massive commercially and OT was modern and much bigger than the rest. If I compare United before the takeover to the United now, we have declined in every area relative to other clubs. Even commercially, our rate of revenue growth isn't actually that great compared to other clubs, and even though we have generated large commercial revenues, the vast majority of that money has left the club to service the Glazer debt; the club has hardly benefitted from its commercial revenues and we've seen very little investment in OT and the training ground. The football industry as a whole has exploded in value and because of this every club has seen commercial revenues shoot up, including ours. I don't think what the Glazers have done is anything special.

The gap is much smaller now than it was back then so relative to other clubs we haven't grown at all relatively.

 

[red thru&thru]

It might be unpopular but they haven’t been a total disaster for the club. I agree from 2010-2014 we really did feel the impact of the debt but our commercial power which is one of the reasons we can thrive in a post covid market wouldn’t be anywhere near the levels it is without them driving it forward (perhaps out of necessity of servicing debts and being profitable long term).

I hate them as much as anyone else and I think the way they took over should not be allowed but the club has been growing financially and to suggest otherwise isn’t true.

The good news is we are currently on schedule to service the debt over the next 9 years in which time we’ll have a massive commercial market share, no debt and hopefully a young side that has matured into PL winners. We’re already growing but the rate of investment could eclipse any club in world football if we manage ourselves well for the next decade.

The next stage for me will be the renovation of Old Trafford whether the Glazers will want to stick around for that is certainly up for debate.

I personally think that we’ve dealt with the worst of them and soon they’ll want to sell up. The problem we have is that we’ve potentially priced ourselves out of a sale. Tifo Football did a decent job of explaining this in a video today

Agree with all this.

I would add, having so many siblings with so many fingers in the pie wouldn't have helped. Each sibling will have their own best course of action for the club. With more and more reports emerging all the time, The Athletic today being one, that Joel is the man who is a fan and will want it to work.

Having gone through the company's properties today, amazing how much they have bought up in and around the stadium, even some of the Manchester International Freight Terminal next to the stadium. They must have some plans for renovations. I'm sure G Nev knows something, especially with his recent comments and him being in construction himself.

But it could also be bought up, designed and planned up and sold as potential for the next buyer?

 

[Rood]

Agree with all this.

I would add, having so many siblings with so many fingers in the pie wouldn't have helped. Each sibling will have their own best course of action for the club. With more and more reports emerging all the time, The Athletic today being one, that Joel is the man who is a fan and will want it to work.

Having gone through the company's properties today, amazing how much they have bought up in and around the stadium, even some of the Manchester International Freight Terminal next to the stadium. They must have some plans for renovations. I'm sure G Nev knows something, especially with his recent comments and him being in construction himself.

But it could also be bought up, designed and planned up and sold as potential for the next buyer?

I think they did have plans but abandoned them - the properties were purchased ages ago IIRC, in fact Im sure they even disposed of some of the surrounding properties more recently as its not a big focus anymore.

 

[red thru&thru]

I think they did have plans but abandoned them - the properties were purchased ages ago IIRC, in fact Im sure they even disposed of some of the surrounding properties more recently as its not a big focus anymore.

Disposed of some? Any links of sorts as I've not heard or read that anywhere.

When I was looking through today, they have around 36 free and lease hold properties/land. For their background of retail and property, I just can't think they wouldn't have any concrete plans to do nothing with them. There's massive opportunity for them.

But yea, things could have changed.

 

[Rood]

Disposed of some? Any links of sorts as I've not heard or read that anywhere.

When I was looking through today, they have around 36 free and lease hold properties/land. For their background of retail and property, I just can't think they wouldn't have any concrete plans to do nothing with them. There's massive opportunity for them.

But yea, things could have changed.

I could be wrong on that, I had a vague memory of it but not sure

They did go on a big buying spree of land and houses around OT about 10 years ago and there were definitely studies done into extending the ground but I think they decided it wasn't financial viable

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Fair enough

Personally, I feel that the commercial expertise that the Glazers have brought in is massively overrated. United were already a commercial powerhouse with world record sponsorship deals way before the Glazers arrived, and it could be argued that our commercial advantage over other clubs was much bigger back then than it is now. Other clubs like Liverpool are starting to close the gap because they are seeing success on the pitch.

The fact that United were miles ahead of everyone in every aspect of a football club gave the Glazers wriggle room to do what they have. Back then we were massive commercially and OT was modern and much bigger than the rest. If I compare United before the takeover to the United now, we have declined in every area relative to other clubs. Even commercially, our rate of revenue growth isn't actually that great compared to other clubs, and even though we have generated large commercial revenues, the vast majority of that money has left the club to service the Glazer debt; the club has hardly benefitted from its commercial revenues and we've seen very little investment in OT and the training ground. The football industry as a whole has exploded in value and because of this every club has seen commercial revenues shoot up, including ours. I don't think what the Glazers have done is anything special.

The gap is much smaller now than it was back then so relative to other clubs we haven't grown at all relatively.

To be clear I don’t think the Glazers themselves brought the commercial nous but I do believe out of necessity we’ve been commercially managed well.

Now you make excellent points regarding relative growth or rate of growth and I was wondering when this would be brought up for debate.

Absolutely other clubs are catching up but a lot of that is down to their improvements from such poor states in short spaces of time on the commercial front. It’s a lot harder for us to find new commercial revenue streams as we have if you’ll excuse a David Brent saying “fingers in many pies”.

I’ll have a look tomorrow to find the grow rate comparison chart and if not I’ll make one but you’re absolutely correct Liverpool and City are gaining on us. But crucially we are still considerably ahead and I don’t see us falling behind. Instead what would be expected is their growth rate to decline. It’s a bit like some of the covid graphs you see
Logarithmic scales eventually the rate flattens out.

I do think they need some credit for being able to service an enormous amount of debt and still post record revenue figures year on year. This is purely from a financial management perspective.

 

[red thru&thru]

I could be wrong on that, I had a vague memory of it but not sure

They did go on a big buying spree of land and houses around OT about 10 years ago and there were definitely studies done into extending the ground but I think they decided it wasn't financial viable

Yea when I had a look today, they have been busy in and around Manchester.

For me, the football side coming along nicely. Ed seems to not be the main man on that side of things, so I'm happy. Just the developments side now. We have to push along with that. Guess this is why they were happy to sell about 20% stake in the club to fund such developments

 

[red thru&thru]

To be clear I don’t think the Glazers themselves brought the commercial nous but I do believe out of necessity we’ve been commercially managed well.

Now you make excellent points regarding relative growth or rate of growth and I was wondering when this would be brought up for debate.

Absolutely other clubs are catching up but a lot of that is down to their improvements from such poor states in short spaces of time on the commercial front. It’s a lot harder for us to find new commercial revenue streams as we have if you’ll excuse a David Brent saying “fingers in many pies”.

I’ll have a look tomorrow to find the grow rate comparison chart and if not I’ll make one but you’re absolutely correct Liverpool and City are gaining on us. But crucially we are still considerably ahead and I don’t see us falling behind. Instead what would be expected is their growth rate to decline. It’s a bit like some of the covid graphs you see
Logarithmic scales eventually the rate flattens out.

I do think they need some credit for being able to service an enormous amount of debt and still post record revenue figures year on year. This is purely from a financial management perspective.

And United's financial figures have flat lined, with one crucial conscious decision, no increase in ticket prices for past 10 years. That would be one way of increasing but they haven't. I'd expect them to in near future, especially if ant potential development plans move forward.

 

[UnitedFan93]

To be clear I don’t think the Glazers themselves brought the commercial nous but I do believe out of necessity we’ve been commercially managed well.

Now you make excellent points regarding relative growth or rate of growth and I was wondering when this would be brought up for debate.

Absolutely other clubs are catching up but a lot of that is down to their improvements from such poor states in short spaces of time on the commercial front. It’s a lot harder for us to find new commercial revenue streams as we have if you’ll excuse a David Brent saying “fingers in many pies”.

I’ll have a look tomorrow to find the grow rate comparison chart and if not I’ll make one but you’re absolutely correct Liverpool and City are gaining on us. But crucially we are still considerably ahead and I don’t see us falling behind. Instead what would be expected is their growth rate to decline. It’s a bit like some of the covid graphs you see
Logarithmic scales eventually the rate flattens out.

I do think they need some credit for being able to service an enormous amount of debt and still post record revenue figures year on year. This is purely from a financial management perspective.

Agree, I think the Glazers have done a great job managing the debt, although I think things could've been rather different if SAF had decided to retire earlier.

What I find incredibly frustrating at this stage is not the debt and the vast sums of money lost servicing their debt (that money is gone forever), it's the fact that the Glazers continue to take money out of the club with £20 million dividends each year. On top of that they charge themselves several million each year for consultancy work. Haven't they taken enough money already? It shows where their priorities lie.

Of course they're owners and they're free to do as they like, however, the Glazers have already made billions of profit at the clubs expense. It's just bloody annoying seeing rival clubs with ambitious owners injecting money into their clubs at a time when our owners are constantly looking at creative ways to take money out.

The Glazers are the only owners to pay themselves dividends in the league and I personally don't think they should be taking so much money out when a) the club still has vast amounts of debt that will eventually need paying, b) OT needs serious investment, c) we're underachieving on the pitch, and d) the league is more competitive that ever. For all these reasons we need all the money that we've got to remain competitive.

Vast sums of money have been leaking out the club throughout the Glazers ownership and it's about time the Glazers start showing serious investment intent, rather than pocketing the money for themselves or using the money to prop up the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.

 

[Gasolin]

It might be unpopular but they haven’t been a total disaster for the club. I agree from 2010-2014 we really did feel the impact of the debt but our commercial power which is one of the reasons we can thrive in a post covid market wouldn’t be anywhere near the levels it is without them driving it forward (perhaps out of necessity of servicing debts and being profitable long term).

I hate them as much as anyone else and I think the way they took over should not be allowed but the club has been growing financially and to suggest otherwise isn’t true.

The good news is we are currently on schedule to service the debt over the next 9 years in which time we’ll have a massive commercial market share, no debt and hopefully a young side that has matured into PL winners. We’re already growing but the rate of investment could eclipse any club in world football if we manage ourselves well for the next decade.

The next stage for me will be the renovation of Old Trafford whether the Glazers will want to stick around for that is certainly up for debate.

I personally think that we’ve dealt with the worst of them and soon they’ll want to sell up. The problem we have is that we’ve potentially priced ourselves out of a sale. Tifo Football did a decent job of explaining this in a video today

I don't think they will ever sell now. There were talks about only selling 20% to the Saudis. Which basically means that Joel Glazer is not ready to let the club go away.
Who knows, we just need someone to take the right football decisions.

The renovation of OT might not be as high in the priority list as opposed to getting the team first up there again.

 

[tombombadil]

What might make more sense and likely to happen, is, like what tifo football said, Joel and Avram buy out their siblings so that they can focus on Man Utd and make better, more timely, decisions. That's what i think anyways.

 

[kiristao]

https://www.givemesport.com/1599523...m_medium=web-view&utm_campaign=organic-social

Not sure if this has been posted anywhere else.
Article basically talks about how United have paid have paid £209m in last 5 years to fund Glazers’ ownership structure: £120m interest plus £89m dividends. In fact, in last 10 years they spent an extraordinary £838m on financing: £488m interest, £251m debt repayments & £99m dividends. Took out £140m loan since year-end

 

[Bastian]

https://www.givemesport.com/1599523...m_medium=web-view&utm_campaign=organic-social

Not sure if this has been posted anywhere else.
Article basically talks about how United have paid have paid £209m in last 5 years to fund Glazers’ ownership structure: £120m interest plus £89m dividends. In fact, in last 10 years they spent an extraordinary £838m on financing: £488m interest, £251m debt repayments & £99m dividends. Took out £140m loan since year-end

In fairness to Woodward, he's done excellent in the marketing department, and the Glazers have managed the debt very professionally.

Am I doing this right?

 

[FreakyJim]

This club really is a powerhouse. We're giving teams money, we pay players the most, we're giving banks a lot of money and even Glazers are able to withdraw money for themselves.

Being milked like a golden cow.