It's unprecedented for a club with these resources to be this bad. Milan at least had some financial woes that triggered their decline, and it coincided with the decline of Serie A in general. We don't have any mitigating factors.
A decade of irrelevance in the CL
- Thread starter VorZakone
- Start date
United and Milan do have a bit in common with their declines. I think both clubs had a generational team that grew up together, and when they eventually retired there was nobody to pass the baton to. The class of 92 all retired around the same time Fergie did. So did the Milan side with Gattuso, Pirlo, Seedorf, Maldini, Nesta etc, around 2011/12 ish.
What was left at either club afterwards other than a massive void? Feels like both clubs have been basically rudderless ever since.
Exactly. United is the only club of this size that declined exclusively due to mismanagement on the sporting side (yes I know the Glazers are leeches who sucked money out of the club - please look at the amount United still spend on players and just shut up about that aspect). Every other club which had a somewhat similar experience was massively hit by issues like financial trouble or general decline of their league which made it harder to compete (looking at clubs like Ajax here)
We've spent unbelievable amounts of money and have had resources to build 3 generational teams over the last decade.
Yet we have got progressively worse and are at by far our worst right now, and still trending downwards.
I think United, as a whole, are really overrated as a European force. We're just not, and we rarely have been.
Some of it comes down to timing. If we'd been the dominant force in the 70's/80's, when the league champions won the European Cup pretty much every season, then we'd have more CLs then we do. By the same token, we started our own period of dominance when we weren't even allowed to enter European competition and it took years to bridge that gap. And we also had the misfortune to continually run into that incredible Barcelona team.
So we've been a bit unlucky too. But as a club, we just don't have that affinity for it that you see with some clubs. We have to be miles better than the majority of the competition to even stand a chance of winning it. And even then we usually mess it up.
Liverpool and Chelsea have won the CL whilst finishing fifth and sixth in the league. Can you imagine a United team ever punching miles above their weight like that? Not a chance. Doesn't happen, ever.
Liverpool always seem to be competitive in the CL, even if they're third or fourth in the league. Then there's Real Madrid.
We're not even competent in the Europa League. We should've won that a few times, or at least got to the final and competed to win it, but we fail constantly.
We're just not good at European football. We're just not. It never feels like a natural fit somehow.
Some of it comes down to timing. If we'd been the dominant force in the 70's/80's, when the league champions won the European Cup pretty much every season, then we'd have more CLs then we do. By the same token, we started our own period of dominance when we weren't even allowed to enter European competition and it took years to bridge that gap. And we also had the misfortune to continually run into that incredible Barcelona team.
So we've been a bit unlucky too. But as a club, we just don't have that affinity for it that you see with some clubs. We have to be miles better than the majority of the competition to even stand a chance of winning it. And even then we usually mess it up.
Liverpool and Chelsea have won the CL whilst finishing fifth and sixth in the league. Can you imagine a United team ever punching miles above their weight like that? Not a chance. Doesn't happen, ever.
Liverpool always seem to be competitive in the CL, even if they're third or fourth in the league. Then there's Real Madrid.
We're not even competent in the Europa League. We should've won that a few times, or at least got to the final and competed to win it, but we fail constantly.
We're just not good at European football. We're just not. It never feels like a natural fit somehow.
Both clubs also made the mistake of becoming a retirement home for washed up players.
Sure, Real Madrid stands head and shoulders above the rest when it comes to European football (gold standard since the 50s).
Then you have Bayern as a distant second (have consistently performed well since the late 60s and bring home trophies).
Then teams like Barcelona and Milan that have really dominant periods (Barcelona with Cruyff and later Messi, Milan with the Nesta, Maldini, Pirlo etc. era), but also very lackluster phases.
After that teams like Chelsea and Liverpool (also bring home trophies, but aren't really consistent at all).
I didn't include the very recent sugar daddy clubs like City and PSG, since they've only been relevant for about a bit over a decade and weren't exactly super successful either.
The thing is this - United should absolutely be able to compete with teams like Bayern or Barcelona internationally, but in reality it's a gigantic gap.
In fact, considered how much money United has spent this past decade, the international results are shockingly poor.
You mean like I acknowledged in the part you decided not to quote?
A lot people saying United were never a force in Europe and it got me thinking.
We had a good period through the following years;
2006/2007 - semi final
2007/2008 - Final (winners)
2008/2009 - Final (runners up)
2009/2010 - Quarter Final
2010/2011- Final
Above is recent enough memory.
Three finals, semi and quarter was a forceful period. Just unlucky Barca were so good, the Barca team in their history.
The late 50s and 60s there was 4 semi finals and 1 final. We have the same number of semi finals as Liverpool (12).
We could have had one or two more.
We had a good period through the following years;
2006/2007 - semi final
2007/2008 - Final (winners)
2008/2009 - Final (runners up)
2009/2010 - Quarter Final
2010/2011- Final
Above is recent enough memory.
Three finals, semi and quarter was a forceful period. Just unlucky Barca were so good, the Barca team in their history.
The late 50s and 60s there was 4 semi finals and 1 final. We have the same number of semi finals as Liverpool (12).
We could have had one or two more.
United unfortunately has a romantic relationship with the UCL which has compromised (IMO) our performances in the latter stages of the tournament. The occasion always got to the players and unless they make a habit by winning it 2-3 times in 5-6 years, that will never go. (Currently, this looks like a pipe dream). The busby babes history and everything just escalates around a big European night and the noise adds more pressure on the players.
We haven’t really played well in any of the 2 finals we won in recent past as well. 1999 was iconic but the game was almost lost at 90 mins, without United scoring a goal. In 2008, we needed penalties and Ronaldo (one of the most consistent penalty takers) missed a penalty in the shoot-out. We have the John Terry slip to thank for that trophy! So, expecting United to be a dominant force in the UCL is not likely- but it will always remain a big draw for the fans. There is more romanticism there for United than any other club (except Madrid).
We haven’t really played well in any of the 2 finals we won in recent past as well. 1999 was iconic but the game was almost lost at 90 mins, without United scoring a goal. In 2008, we needed penalties and Ronaldo (one of the most consistent penalty takers) missed a penalty in the shoot-out. We have the John Terry slip to thank for that trophy! So, expecting United to be a dominant force in the UCL is not likely- but it will always remain a big draw for the fans. There is more romanticism there for United than any other club (except Madrid).
That is very, very good but also 15 years ago. That is the issue with young(er) fans. They have "never" seen a dominant European campaign (or a league title) by United. Hence the flock to the likes of City or PSG.
Sorry, mate. It wasn't meant as a dig at you. I just wanted to highlight, that it is obviously harder to qualify for the CL than in other leagues, but that United also sucked when doing so.
You guys are incredibly harsh on this issue on your team.
CL wins involve very very thin margins where a lot of luck also has to go a teams way. I'll give you our example. Lost the final which we should have won after missing sitters at 1-0. Then against an ATG Barca team we were holding on well till we got absolutely cheated by RVP being sent off. Then the 2 years after again an ATG Barca team and Bendtner misses a golden tap in in the final minute away from home, something which we would have won and made it through. So even the ATG Barca team needed a lot of luck, who remembers that away leg at Chelsea? Look at Madrid who beat Atletico by barest of margins twice. Any small luck could have handed Atletico their wins.
These are very small margins. Same for United. You simply came across a superb Barca team, twice. Otherwise you'd won 3 titles in 5 years. Which is excellent across any era by any team.
Granted things are a bit dire now but United have a good European history. Could it better? Maybe but 3 titles is nothing to be scoffed at.
CL wins involve very very thin margins where a lot of luck also has to go a teams way. I'll give you our example. Lost the final which we should have won after missing sitters at 1-0. Then against an ATG Barca team we were holding on well till we got absolutely cheated by RVP being sent off. Then the 2 years after again an ATG Barca team and Bendtner misses a golden tap in in the final minute away from home, something which we would have won and made it through. So even the ATG Barca team needed a lot of luck, who remembers that away leg at Chelsea? Look at Madrid who beat Atletico by barest of margins twice. Any small luck could have handed Atletico their wins.
These are very small margins. Same for United. You simply came across a superb Barca team, twice. Otherwise you'd won 3 titles in 5 years. Which is excellent across any era by any team.
Granted things are a bit dire now but United have a good European history. Could it better? Maybe but 3 titles is nothing to be scoffed at.
Yeah agreed on the thin margins. I'm still reeling from the shocking Scholes offside goal decision against Porto in 2004 as well as Cnut Cakes sending off Nani against Real Madrid during Fergie's last season. I genuinely believed we would have gone all the way in those years. The Barca era of dominance was just bad luck like you said, a bit like Klopp's Liverpool ascension coinciding with the cheating Stockport cnuts era of dominance.
I've banged on about this for yonks but United have NEVER been a successful football club. They have only had success when they've had managers that have been almost bigger than the club.
In almost 150 years we've only had 3 managers who've won the league. Bear in mind that those 3 managers are also responsible for around 95% of our trophies.
Compare it to Liverpool - in the same period they've had 9 different managers who have won the league for them.
In almost 150 years we've only had 3 managers who've won the league. Bear in mind that those 3 managers are also responsible for around 95% of our trophies.
Compare it to Liverpool - in the same period they've had 9 different managers who have won the league for them.
Great outlook to have. So if Arsenal win the next CLs they’ve “never been a successful club” whatever the feck that means
This thread amuses me. Hard to believe that any United fan who has watched us this past decade would place importance on us not being “relevant” in the CL for a decade when we have been so badly run and so poor to watch. Surely those are the things you want to see change first and foremost - to tune in and actually be entertained by your team as opposed to what seems like a test of endurance and ability to withstand excruciating pain.
Maybe it’s becuase the OP is a Dortmund fan (unless I’m mistlaken).
Maybe it’s becuase the OP is a Dortmund fan (unless I’m mistlaken).
Why does that discount it as success? What a mental outlook.
I don't think it's mental, it's interesting. Because it is another point to prove that United is a club were the manager is much more important than at most other clubs. It doesn't have to be that way forever, but it explains why discussions about the manager are much tougher among United fans than among fans of basically every other club. No other big club has success so tightly related to very few managers as United. So it's fair to say that United as a club never learned or understood how to be a top club without a larger-than-life manager
Put down the crack pipe buddy. Those three managers account for about 1/3 of our entire existence and the impact Busby and Fergie in particular had on United and british football in general is unmatched.
It would be like saying Argentina have never been a great world cup team. In 100 plus years of football they've only had success with Maradona, Kempes and Messi.
Or Brazilian strikers aren't even that good if you don't count Pele, R9 and Romario.
Spot on there. Suffice to say there's 3 replies to the original post that are the typical mocking/scoffing/scornful type of response. And they all badly miss the point I'm making in their haste to reply to what I'd imagine they deem as an idiotic post.
Unlike them you've actually given it some thought and have worded it better than I could myself. I've often said that United are a badly run club that got lucky 3 times but your final sentence nails it much more precisely.
Cheers.
Thanks. I probably did that because it's a point I often made myself already in discussions about managers, especially when talking about potential new managers
So for me it wasn't a new thought at all, but I also experienced the same backlash you just did. It's still hard for most United fans to truly accept that a manager is just a part of the whole and not the single most important person around whom the whole club should revolve.
Except that’s exactly what most have understood and is actually being it in place by the club itself. But no, let’s claim (or agree with) something moronic like “we’ve never been a successful club” because it sounds like a bold take.Thanks. I probably did that because it's a point I often made myself already in discussions about managers, especially when talking about potential new managers
So for me it wasn't a new thought at all, but I also experienced the same backlash you just did. It's still hard for most United fans to truly accept that a manager is just a part of the whole and not the single most important person around whom the whole club should revolve.
Spot on there. I don’t disagree that our success has been accumulated under two managers, but there’s a magic and romance to that as well that’s part of the club’s fabric - with those managers serving for so long, as you rightly say. Not that this has to be the way going forward.
Put down the crack pipe buddy. Those three managers account for about 1/3 of our entire existence and the impact Busby and Fergie in particular had on United and british football in general is unmatched.
It would be like saying Argentina have never been a great world cup team. In 100 plus years of football they've only had success with Maradona, Kempes and Messi.
Or Brazilian strikers aren't even that good if you don't count Pele, R9 and Romario.
I don’t think anyone here believes that we only need a great manager and nothing else matters - in fact everything you read here says the otherwise. That people structure and vision from the top and less power solely to the manager.
Of course it's mental.
He's literally said we're not a successful club, despite us being one of the most successful clubs in the history of European football, and the most successful club in the history of English football.
Any point about how the club has been ran throughout its history is effective bollocks too, unless you think not much changed between the days of John Henry Davies and the Glazers?
Being coddled by an Arsenal fan on a lack of CL success. Bleak.
Not sure why the snideness? Had we won one CL trophy my comment still would be as valid. Or is this your tactic of discouraging posters from other clubs posting?
Not a United fan. The snideness is because your post had "Arsenal fan coming in peace" type reddit energy and those sorts of posts annoy me no matter who they're directed at or where they're coming from. It also reeked of a kind of excuse-making, loser mentality I'd associate more with Arsenal's history (or lack of it) in the competition than United, so yes, I do not think your comments are valid in this discussion, just like they wouldn't be valid to a discussion of Bayern Munich. Losing to a better team in Barcelona is not some hard luck story for United, they're fecking United. You operate under an entirely different set of expectations. Your comments may be more applicable to a, I don't know, Monaco or whatever.
Every club has good and bad luck/draws/decisions in the CL and we all know the margins are extremely slim at the top, the great ones are just better at putting themselves in a position to succeed enough times where they can navigate those variables. Imagine presenting your line of thinking to a Real Madrid fan. Not too long ago, that's where United fans saw themselves, and now here you are lumping them in with yourselves in a competition where you've largely been irrelevant (or a joke) and Atletico Madrid (underdogs punching well above their weight), and patting them on the back with a "actually you've done well lads, be proud of yourselves" - and the collective morale here is so low that not a single United fan (until SirAF) even bothered to call you out on it. I just thought that was bleak. It's not personal. Please keep posting.
does united treble season start from qualification?
arsenal is the champion of 1997 PL, united runner up and go to qualification
play in 1998-1999 CL final, and win a treble?
In order for Manchester United to be a successful club, they should have sacked Ferguson as soon as he won the league and tried with a new manager.
That's obviously not the point. The club should have learned from SAF how to be successful instead of relying on him to live forever (and work forever).
“Wealth”, being a big club has little to do with money.
You only have to look at Romano’s twitter over the course of a Summer to know who THE big club is.
Liverpool have won just 1 league in 35 years though.
After 1923 they went 40 years without a title.
It almost mirrors like for like United’s barren periods.
Your point?
I mean, if more managers winning makes you more successful, who do you consider the successful clubs in English football better it’s an odd criteria?
I wouldn't call it under performance, I would say it's a fair reflection on where we are as a club and where we have been since Fergie left.
Not to be doom and gloom but it is possible/likely that this is our level for the next ten years or more, a team capable of beating top teams and picking up the occasional trophy, basically how we were in the 80s.
Not to be doom and gloom but it is possible/likely that this is our level for the next ten years or more, a team capable of beating top teams and picking up the occasional trophy, basically how we were in the 80s.
I agree with you. Whatever financial advantage we have due to our stadium/fanbase is eroded by all the FFP stuff so there’s no good reason to expect us to dominate on this basis. We’re basically in the same boat as a bunch of other clubs, all hoping we can snare the next Klopp/Pep. And we’re no more likely to do that than any of them.
Successful institutions try to keep talented people on. That's part of their success.
United just had bad owners.
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Did we even go to the quarters?
Yes. In 2013-14 and 2018-19.
You need to add the no CL for the current campaign.
Perhaps that's the problem retaining managers after finishing 8th and being dumped in a piss easy CL group.
Obviously the club has a dominant history not that far, obviously there is the history pre Ferguson era, but between 1992-2013 the club was a major force in Europe, dominating EPL and winning UCLs and going toe to toe with other European giants, and becoming the richest club in the planet, the fact is the club continued since 2013 to be one of the richest sports entities on planet and pay top wages in Europe, hence the big club tag, but sporting wise, we became a non-entity with several years failing to qualify to UCL,that's a sad reality that I hope will slowly change soon with INEOS