The value policy worked very well for fergie....he is britians most successful after all. It seems though that it may not work for others, perhaps because some of the fans are so impatient that they want instant success.
A change in transfer philosophy? Was "Value" a false economy?
- Thread starter Pexbo
- Start date
Manchester United turmoil is partly down to Sir Alex Ferguson and the club's transfer policy
by Mark Ogden
Humiliating defeat to MK Dons exposed the flaws in Manchester United's 'value in the market' transfer policy since 2009 - it has been five years of mis-investment
Reality checks tend not to arrive when all is going well, but Manchester United could really have done without discovering the cost of five years of mis-investment and cautious spending on the day they obliterated the British transfer record by lavishing £59.7m on Angel di Maria.
The outlay on the Real Madrid winger may yet prove to be too much, too late, if United’s Capital One Cup capitulation at the hands of MK Dons offers a true barometer of the current state of health at Old Trafford.
Many will bear the brunt of criticism for United’s 4-0 surrender at Stadium:mk. Louis van Gaal, David Moyes and Ed Woodward, the club’s executive vice-chairman, will all find condemnation heading their way, as will many of the players – the experienced ones – who failed to justify their wages or reputations against League One opponents.
But the paucity of United’s performance can be traced back to the summer of 2009 and the direction taken by the club, under Sir Alex Ferguson’s charge, in the summers following the world record £80m sale of Cristiano Ronaldo to Real.
Carlos Tevez also passed through the exit door that summer, controversially heading to Manchester City at the end of his two-year loan at Old Trafford, and the Argentine’s departure has proven to be just as significant as Ronaldo’s.
Tevez’s move heralded the beginning of City’s rise and, at the same time, the birth of a strangely meek transfer policy at Old Trafford, with Ferguson decrying the spending of United’s local rivals at the same time as insisting he and chief executive David Gill would only pursue ‘value in the market.’
Tuesday night in Milton Keynes showed us the long-term return on the ‘value’ policy and it is left to Van Gaal and Woodward to somehow breathe new life into a squad which is now not even good enough to defeat a team from the third tier of English football.
A year on from the departures of Ronaldo and Tevez – United recruited Michael Owen, Antonio Valencia and Gabriel Obertan that summer – Ferguson sat alongside Chris Smalling, Javier Hernandez and Bebe at an Old Trafford unveiling press conference and decried the ‘kamikaze’ spending of the club’s rivals in that same transfer window.
City had just spent £110m on the likes of Yaya Toure, David Silva, James Milner, Mario Balotelli and Jerome Boateng, an outlay which dwarfed United’s £24m spending spree, but four years on only a fool would argue that United’s money was invested more smartly than City’s.
Toure and Silva could have ended up at Old Trafford rather than the Etihad Stadium, but the ambition and long-term view of City’s owners caught United, hampered by the debt-servicing of the Glazer family, out of step.
The trend continued 12 months later, with City landing Sergio Aguero and Samir Nasri while United brought in David de Gea, Ashley Young and Phil Jones.
When United and Ferguson finally threw off their spending shackles and overcame City to signing Robin van Persie in the summer of 2012, the outcome was the club’s 20th league title, but the damage had arguably already been done by the time of Van Persie’s arrival.
A succession of transfer windows had seen United chase ‘value,’ but the defeat at Milton Keynes was the football equivalent of discovering that your pension fund has been stuck in a scheme offering one per cent interest for the last 20 years.
Keith Gillespie, the former United winger, offered a pertinent assessment of the club’s current predicament via his Twitter account following the MK Dons defeat.
“Man Utd squad players have to be viewed as being able to play at Premiership level,” Gillespie tweeted. “If they can't, they shouldn't be there. No excuses.”
Too many of those on duty against MK Dons were found wanting, but the young players given their opportunity by Van Gaal were asked to fill holes created by the ‘value’ policy.
At City, the club now has at least two Champions League-class performers in each position as a result of their policy of pursuing signings at the top end of the market.
United, in contrast, now have a squad which, prior to Di Maria’s arrival, possesses perhaps just three players who could sit comfortably in City’s squad – Van Persie, Wayne Rooney and David de Gea.
It is why Woodward, Van Gaal and, previously, Moyes, have overseen a 12-month spending spree that reached the £196m mark with the signing of Di Maria. United are playing catch-up and it is costing them a fortune.
From Marouane Fellaini and Juan Mata, through to this summer’s acquisitions of Luke Shaw, Ander Herrera, Marcos Rojo and Di Maria, United have been forced to pay over the odds for players who have all arrived at Old Trafford with inflated price tags. It is because United no longer have a squad capable of competing with the likes of City and Chelsea.
The ‘value in the market’ policy has failed and it is United who are now embarking on ‘kamikaze’ spending.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...x-Ferguson-and-the-clubs-transfer-policy.html
by Mark Ogden
Humiliating defeat to MK Dons exposed the flaws in Manchester United's 'value in the market' transfer policy since 2009 - it has been five years of mis-investment
Reality checks tend not to arrive when all is going well, but Manchester United could really have done without discovering the cost of five years of mis-investment and cautious spending on the day they obliterated the British transfer record by lavishing £59.7m on Angel di Maria.
The outlay on the Real Madrid winger may yet prove to be too much, too late, if United’s Capital One Cup capitulation at the hands of MK Dons offers a true barometer of the current state of health at Old Trafford.
Many will bear the brunt of criticism for United’s 4-0 surrender at Stadium:mk. Louis van Gaal, David Moyes and Ed Woodward, the club’s executive vice-chairman, will all find condemnation heading their way, as will many of the players – the experienced ones – who failed to justify their wages or reputations against League One opponents.
But the paucity of United’s performance can be traced back to the summer of 2009 and the direction taken by the club, under Sir Alex Ferguson’s charge, in the summers following the world record £80m sale of Cristiano Ronaldo to Real.
Carlos Tevez also passed through the exit door that summer, controversially heading to Manchester City at the end of his two-year loan at Old Trafford, and the Argentine’s departure has proven to be just as significant as Ronaldo’s.
Tevez’s move heralded the beginning of City’s rise and, at the same time, the birth of a strangely meek transfer policy at Old Trafford, with Ferguson decrying the spending of United’s local rivals at the same time as insisting he and chief executive David Gill would only pursue ‘value in the market.’
Tuesday night in Milton Keynes showed us the long-term return on the ‘value’ policy and it is left to Van Gaal and Woodward to somehow breathe new life into a squad which is now not even good enough to defeat a team from the third tier of English football.
A year on from the departures of Ronaldo and Tevez – United recruited Michael Owen, Antonio Valencia and Gabriel Obertan that summer – Ferguson sat alongside Chris Smalling, Javier Hernandez and Bebe at an Old Trafford unveiling press conference and decried the ‘kamikaze’ spending of the club’s rivals in that same transfer window.
City had just spent £110m on the likes of Yaya Toure, David Silva, James Milner, Mario Balotelli and Jerome Boateng, an outlay which dwarfed United’s £24m spending spree, but four years on only a fool would argue that United’s money was invested more smartly than City’s.
Toure and Silva could have ended up at Old Trafford rather than the Etihad Stadium, but the ambition and long-term view of City’s owners caught United, hampered by the debt-servicing of the Glazer family, out of step.
The trend continued 12 months later, with City landing Sergio Aguero and Samir Nasri while United brought in David de Gea, Ashley Young and Phil Jones.
When United and Ferguson finally threw off their spending shackles and overcame City to signing Robin van Persie in the summer of 2012, the outcome was the club’s 20th league title, but the damage had arguably already been done by the time of Van Persie’s arrival.
A succession of transfer windows had seen United chase ‘value,’ but the defeat at Milton Keynes was the football equivalent of discovering that your pension fund has been stuck in a scheme offering one per cent interest for the last 20 years.
Keith Gillespie, the former United winger, offered a pertinent assessment of the club’s current predicament via his Twitter account following the MK Dons defeat.
“Man Utd squad players have to be viewed as being able to play at Premiership level,” Gillespie tweeted. “If they can't, they shouldn't be there. No excuses.”
Too many of those on duty against MK Dons were found wanting, but the young players given their opportunity by Van Gaal were asked to fill holes created by the ‘value’ policy.
At City, the club now has at least two Champions League-class performers in each position as a result of their policy of pursuing signings at the top end of the market.
United, in contrast, now have a squad which, prior to Di Maria’s arrival, possesses perhaps just three players who could sit comfortably in City’s squad – Van Persie, Wayne Rooney and David de Gea.
It is why Woodward, Van Gaal and, previously, Moyes, have overseen a 12-month spending spree that reached the £196m mark with the signing of Di Maria. United are playing catch-up and it is costing them a fortune.
From Marouane Fellaini and Juan Mata, through to this summer’s acquisitions of Luke Shaw, Ander Herrera, Marcos Rojo and Di Maria, United have been forced to pay over the odds for players who have all arrived at Old Trafford with inflated price tags. It is because United no longer have a squad capable of competing with the likes of City and Chelsea.
The ‘value in the market’ policy has failed and it is United who are now embarking on ‘kamikaze’ spending.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...x-Ferguson-and-the-clubs-transfer-policy.html
This kind of silly tautology is completely needless.
The very concept of there being such a thing as a 'value policy' is completely absurd. It's a universal thing. Every manager looks for value. They'd be bloody fools if they didn't.
At this moment, I think it's safe to say that SAF and the club's transfer policy during the latter years of his reign failed.
We're stuck with a lot of potential that didn't materialize, while at the same time we've lost our star quality due to age and departures (Ronaldo mainly, but also Tevez).
Also, our refusal to just bite the bullet and pay top dollar for a proper CM replacement over several summers despite the obvious need, have come back to haunt us big time. Now, with Carrick reaching the stage where his contribution will diminish, suddenly we need a whole crop of midfielders instead of just buying a couple over the last few seasons - of the highest quality.
It also seems like this will happen in defence. Losing previous top performers like Vida and Rio, despite it being obvious they were declining, and trying to replace them with potential that we've played out of position/are chronically injured instead of just going for someone like Benatia.
We're stuck with a lot of potential that didn't materialize, while at the same time we've lost our star quality due to age and departures (Ronaldo mainly, but also Tevez).
Also, our refusal to just bite the bullet and pay top dollar for a proper CM replacement over several summers despite the obvious need, have come back to haunt us big time. Now, with Carrick reaching the stage where his contribution will diminish, suddenly we need a whole crop of midfielders instead of just buying a couple over the last few seasons - of the highest quality.
It also seems like this will happen in defence. Losing previous top performers like Vida and Rio, despite it being obvious they were declining, and trying to replace them with potential that we've played out of position/are chronically injured instead of just going for someone like Benatia.
Ogden you absolute bugger! That's plagiarism!Value, when applied correctly, was and still isn't, a problem. Value isn't just about buying potential or spending less then 20 etc.
A transfer like Fabregas and Kroos this season alone, constitutes "value". You can probably add Mandzukic, Khedira to that list etc.
The key is obviously being interested and fending off competition from rivals and being the player's preference etc (whichever applied to the above 2).
SAF always sought value (young potential we can mould - with a high sell on value), which has only really become a issue recently, as we've seemingly struggled to replace any of the old guard (Giggs, Scholes, Rio, Vidic, Evra), though he also wasn't scared to buy PL established players.
I think the transfer of Veron really put SAF off buying established foreign stars for lavish amounts.
A transfer like Fabregas and Kroos this season alone, constitutes "value". You can probably add Mandzukic, Khedira to that list etc.
The key is obviously being interested and fending off competition from rivals and being the player's preference etc (whichever applied to the above 2).
SAF always sought value (young potential we can mould - with a high sell on value), which has only really become a issue recently, as we've seemingly struggled to replace any of the old guard (Giggs, Scholes, Rio, Vidic, Evra), though he also wasn't scared to buy PL established players.
I think the transfer of Veron really put SAF off buying established foreign stars for lavish amounts.
I think I must have flattered him earlier on on the summer
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/mark-ogden.389186/
To go after value in the market is not wrong per se and Fergie proved that time and time. But just to go for the cheap option when there is an obvious need to invest is surely not the right way
The problem was not buying them, it was SAF's refusal to admit he had made a mistake and not getting rid of them quickly. Yes you have to take a punt on potential sometimes but you also have to be man enough to admit when you were wrong. The old Fergie of the mid 90's would not have thought twice of discarding players. The latter years he got far too mellow and sentimental.
Looking for value is fine, but our returns on "value" have been awful. You need to look at the likes of Dortmund to see that looking for value in the market is not a bad thing.
I think our problems are twofold - finding players who aren't good enough, and not developing the younger players (who are usually cheaper) properly.
The first problem is fairly obvious, when you consider the likes of Obertan, Manucho, Owen et al. While I can perhaps see some rationale behind their signings (Obertan a flawed winger with decent technique; Manucho a punt on a powerful striker; Owen a proven poacher who has seen better days), we seem to have ignored the fact that these signings are also likely to have a high failure rate - you get what you pay for - and that when you have as many failures as we have had, the rest of the squad doesn't just magically get better. Didn't someone on the Caf once joke that we might "sell Rooney and ask Valencia to step up" (in response to how we dealt with the Ronaldo sale)?
We should probably take a better look at how Dortmund scout players. Are we doing something fundamentally wrong? Our scouting department should be superior to Dortmund's - so why are they getting better results?
The second part is development, and this is typically applied to the younger talents we've had, like Powell, Petrucci and Macheda - youth is a good source of value-for-money. Our youth development beyond 19 appears to be "send them out on loan until they impress in the Premier League" (Cleverley, Welbeck and Evans), without realising that the holy grail of a successful Premier League loan is a Catch-22 situation because few Premier League sides will take an unproven youngster on loan, and those that will are likely to be scrapping for relegation (and hence likely to be ditched in favour of experience in a relegation dogfight). Rafael is the only youngster I can think of that broke through without a loan, and he's an academy product in name only.
While this is a English issue in general, surely there is a better way? To take Dortmund again, or even Bayern Munich or Barcelona, several of their youngsters stay in the first-team to learn. Unfortunately for us, this goes back to the squad because the likes of Anderson is taking up a spot that Powell, say, could probably be having. Our squad has a very "long tail" in the sense that there is a lot of dross that I would be happy to have as squad players, but we have far too many and we expect them to be first-choice world-class players. Youngsters would only contribute to that long tail and wouldn't get any chances.
Or maybe we can send them out on loan to Europe more often. As much as I hate what Chelsea B - sorry, Vitesse - do, maybe we need to do something like that. The Championship is too competitive, and the Premier League is too difficult for a youngster to break through - so we need to seek loans a league slightly below the Championship for younger players, and a league between the Championship and Premier League for the older players.
To bring back Rafael as an example - he deputised for Brown and O'Shea, conveniently coming at a time when Brown was approaching 30 and O'Shea looking to leave. Now, I think Rafael is a superior player to Brown in terms of ability, but if Brown had been 2 years younger, Rafael might too have suffered from "loan hell" and not developed. I'm not convinced we have a real plan to bring through the youngsters we do sign. While it's true our academy produces great players, and many of them go on to have good, professional careers, other clubs seem to have better success in transforming them into stars at their own clubs. The fundamentals appear to be there - but something to take them beyond that is missing.
I think our problems are twofold - finding players who aren't good enough, and not developing the younger players (who are usually cheaper) properly.
The first problem is fairly obvious, when you consider the likes of Obertan, Manucho, Owen et al. While I can perhaps see some rationale behind their signings (Obertan a flawed winger with decent technique; Manucho a punt on a powerful striker; Owen a proven poacher who has seen better days), we seem to have ignored the fact that these signings are also likely to have a high failure rate - you get what you pay for - and that when you have as many failures as we have had, the rest of the squad doesn't just magically get better. Didn't someone on the Caf once joke that we might "sell Rooney and ask Valencia to step up" (in response to how we dealt with the Ronaldo sale)?
We should probably take a better look at how Dortmund scout players. Are we doing something fundamentally wrong? Our scouting department should be superior to Dortmund's - so why are they getting better results?
The second part is development, and this is typically applied to the younger talents we've had, like Powell, Petrucci and Macheda - youth is a good source of value-for-money. Our youth development beyond 19 appears to be "send them out on loan until they impress in the Premier League" (Cleverley, Welbeck and Evans), without realising that the holy grail of a successful Premier League loan is a Catch-22 situation because few Premier League sides will take an unproven youngster on loan, and those that will are likely to be scrapping for relegation (and hence likely to be ditched in favour of experience in a relegation dogfight). Rafael is the only youngster I can think of that broke through without a loan, and he's an academy product in name only.
While this is a English issue in general, surely there is a better way? To take Dortmund again, or even Bayern Munich or Barcelona, several of their youngsters stay in the first-team to learn. Unfortunately for us, this goes back to the squad because the likes of Anderson is taking up a spot that Powell, say, could probably be having. Our squad has a very "long tail" in the sense that there is a lot of dross that I would be happy to have as squad players, but we have far too many and we expect them to be first-choice world-class players. Youngsters would only contribute to that long tail and wouldn't get any chances.
Or maybe we can send them out on loan to Europe more often. As much as I hate what Chelsea B - sorry, Vitesse - do, maybe we need to do something like that. The Championship is too competitive, and the Premier League is too difficult for a youngster to break through - so we need to seek loans a league slightly below the Championship for younger players, and a league between the Championship and Premier League for the older players.
To bring back Rafael as an example - he deputised for Brown and O'Shea, conveniently coming at a time when Brown was approaching 30 and O'Shea looking to leave. Now, I think Rafael is a superior player to Brown in terms of ability, but if Brown had been 2 years younger, Rafael might too have suffered from "loan hell" and not developed. I'm not convinced we have a real plan to bring through the youngsters we do sign. While it's true our academy produces great players, and many of them go on to have good, professional careers, other clubs seem to have better success in transforming them into stars at their own clubs. The fundamentals appear to be there - but something to take them beyond that is missing.
I'm sick of hearing the word 'philosophy'
We were everything but exciting to watch. It was even at that time becoming ever so apparent that the squad wasn't that good. In our last title win only Van Persie, DDG, Carrick and Rafael had a great season, the rest was a mish mash of squad players constantly revolving to keep the team going, Lord knows how many times Van Persie bailed us out that season with moments of absolute class. Carrick ran an exclusive one man midfield throughout the season in what remains to this day as his best season to date. These complaints about the squad aren't just complaints that have popped up since the great man left, they are just worse now cause its two years down the line. Poor Moyes was left with a Van Persie that couldn't stay fit, a Carrick showing his age, a rafael that couldn't stay fit and had to make do with the aforementioned mish mash. Rio was a year older, vida basically done, and evra was even worse than he'd been during his decline since 2010. Obviously Moyes himself was inept and certainly not the sort of manager that could guide us through a transition. Sadly he wrongly thought he was getting a quality squad while he instead got a cut and paste team riddled with overrated youngsters, fallen legends, inconsistent squad players and injury prone superstars.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...x-Ferguson-and-the-clubs-transfer-policy.html
Ogden has had a crack at Sir Alex and United's transfer policy.
Ogden has had a crack at Sir Alex and United's transfer policy.
It's pronounced Fosh-iffy.
He clearly reads this forum and was clearly inspired by my thread.
The quality of the team has been decline for years and most of our most technical/reliable players were at the wrong end of their career (Scholes, Giggs, Vidic, Evra, Rio etc). SAF was a fantastic manager with some outdated ideas in terms of transfer fees. We insisted on placing bids which reflected the situation of 10 years ago rather then current time.
I find some of you 'failures' strange to say the least so I've made some comments within the quoted text.
That's about spot on.
I think you've been overly generous in some of those cases.
Well, I was defining success as to the club. Selling them for profit (Buttner, Tosic) is not successful transfer imo!
Zaha, Kagawa & Hernandez - If your definition of success is 'mostly useful subs'. None have made it to the main team regularly. I don't think any of them would consider their stint here as successful!
Nani, Anderson, Young & Valencia are a bit better. They had the reputation and a season or two at the top, but for the money paid to them and overall worth the team got out of them, I think they are at best 'not bad' transfers.
I'll give you the two we sold for a profit. Bit I did say Zaha and Kagawa are to be decided. Hernandez for the money is a success, he won points for us in title winning seasons. Nani and Valencia played major roles in title winning seasons, a bit better than 'not bad'.
Want to elaborate?
value policy has just led to us having to spend more now. imagine if we had spent an extra couple of million and got Hazard rather than refusing to pay his agent what he wanted. We'd have saved about 30 million as we probably wouldn't have needed Di Maria.
That could take ages.
Not with spending like this summer.
Ferguson simply didn't have money, hence the famous "value" quotes.
We're talking about man who was setting british transfer records every couple of years, of course before Glazers' arrival.
SAF questioned Hazard's fee of 34m in 2012, while ten years back he had no problem with paying 30m for Ferdinand - who was the most expensive defender for the next decade!
Of course SAF and Gill were always praising Glazers, their full support etc., but I don't buy it. Ferguson always liked big transfers.
Eight, seven or five years ago total cost of our debt, including all those PIK's, was about 70-80m per year, now it's around 20-30.
If we didn't have to spend all that money on paying Glazer's debt off, we wouldn't be in this situation today. And we wouldn't have to overpay for players, as we have to now.
We're talking about man who was setting british transfer records every couple of years, of course before Glazers' arrival.
SAF questioned Hazard's fee of 34m in 2012, while ten years back he had no problem with paying 30m for Ferdinand - who was the most expensive defender for the next decade!
Of course SAF and Gill were always praising Glazers, their full support etc., but I don't buy it. Ferguson always liked big transfers.
Eight, seven or five years ago total cost of our debt, including all those PIK's, was about 70-80m per year, now it's around 20-30.
If we didn't have to spend all that money on paying Glazer's debt off, we wouldn't be in this situation today. And we wouldn't have to overpay for players, as we have to now.
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Sir Alex spoke of value, then went on and wasted millions of pounds. As much as I love the man, and we owe him everything, his decisions regarding transfers in the later part of his career were absolutely woeful. The money was there, he just chose to follow the idead of Wenger by squandering it on unproven players.
I'd disagree in a few fronts. Part of the problem is that a good number of transfers don't come off for one reason or another so being able to get rid of a player for profit is a success especially if you're getting a good return.
In the case of Hernandez, United
may have been able to sell him for 2.5x-3x his initial purchase price but now he's regressed and he's lost value. If you get 15-18 million for him 2-3 years ago that's money that could have been used for 2-4 good young prospects, a midfielder like Cabaye, some loan deals and a good prospect.
It's the same with Kagawa. He could have been sold for 18-20 12-18 months ago which again would give option to acquire young talents, cheaper back up players loans etc.
Philosophy is the study of general and fundamental problems, such as those connected with reality, existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language.[1][2] Philosophy is distinguished from other ways of addressing such problems by its critical, generally systematic approach and its reliance on rational argument.[3] In more casual speech, by extension, "philosophy" can refer to "the most basic beliefs, concepts, and attitudes of an individual or group".[4]
The word "philosophy" comes from the Ancient Greek φιλοσοφία (philosophia), which literally means "love of wisdom".[5][6][7] The introduction of the terms "***********" and "philosophy" has been ascribed to the Greek thinker Pythagoras.[8]
The word "philosophy" comes from the Ancient Greek φιλοσοφία (philosophia), which literally means "love of wisdom".[5][6][7] The introduction of the terms "***********" and "philosophy" has been ascribed to the Greek thinker Pythagoras.[8]
Debatable. The main purpose of a transfer is to improve the team. If that failed, then making money alone would not be a success. We are after all a footballing club.
No doubts that money has been poorly invested by Ferguson and more recently Moyes. It hasn't helped that we have had a third manager in the space of 3 years. All of them have had their own ideas and approach. Ferguson left a decent but unbalanced squad, signing Kagawa reflected his visions that Rooney was coming to the end at United. In came Moyes and his single mindedness ignored any advice given, made a big mess and signed two unnecessary players. One of whom is far and away from a United player. Mata came in for a big fee and was a panic buy, quality player but his position is more than covered. Moyes also pandered to Rooney and the squad is so top heavy on attacking players, it is proving impossible to fit them in. Also far form convinced that RvP and Rooney can work together.
Ferguson's latter record in the transfer market is pretty poor, downright appalling when you focus on just midfielders. Of course it is football and nothing follows a straight path. Been really unlucky too with players not turning out to be as expected and injuries, such as Hargreaves. Though you do question being in for him at all with his injury record. He has always had his hopeful punts, many of which have paid off. But additions such as Young and Valencia have been players known not to be of United quality. Valencia has been some success to extent but he does remain a very poor footballer. As with Young, not good enough, nothing player and never in a million years worth what was paid. Has seemed that in recent times that the right kind of players haven't been targeted. Signings have been made that have glossed over problem areas and meant some have played out of position. Frustratingly additions have been made that have unsettled things, creating more problems in terms of having a fully functioning fluid team. Berbatov signing was one and RVP too. Not for a moment saying Van Persie was a bad addition, just that it has followed trend with not always buying sensibly.
Value, unwillingness to spend and a desire to stick with players that are known about (within the Premier League) has certainly had an affect on the quality of the squad. In turn it has caused the club to throw money about to attempt to remedy the problem. Necessary I guess, there is more money available now too thanks to Woodward's commercial enterprises! All in all things are certainly different, let us just hope that the money does the talking and that LVG knows what he is doing in getting the team sorted. It will be a disaster to lose out on Champions League football for a consecutive season, for a multitude of reasons- most especially the cash influx from this super kit deal.
Ferguson's latter record in the transfer market is pretty poor, downright appalling when you focus on just midfielders. Of course it is football and nothing follows a straight path. Been really unlucky too with players not turning out to be as expected and injuries, such as Hargreaves. Though you do question being in for him at all with his injury record. He has always had his hopeful punts, many of which have paid off. But additions such as Young and Valencia have been players known not to be of United quality. Valencia has been some success to extent but he does remain a very poor footballer. As with Young, not good enough, nothing player and never in a million years worth what was paid. Has seemed that in recent times that the right kind of players haven't been targeted. Signings have been made that have glossed over problem areas and meant some have played out of position. Frustratingly additions have been made that have unsettled things, creating more problems in terms of having a fully functioning fluid team. Berbatov signing was one and RVP too. Not for a moment saying Van Persie was a bad addition, just that it has followed trend with not always buying sensibly.
Value, unwillingness to spend and a desire to stick with players that are known about (within the Premier League) has certainly had an affect on the quality of the squad. In turn it has caused the club to throw money about to attempt to remedy the problem. Necessary I guess, there is more money available now too thanks to Woodward's commercial enterprises! All in all things are certainly different, let us just hope that the money does the talking and that LVG knows what he is doing in getting the team sorted. It will be a disaster to lose out on Champions League football for a consecutive season, for a multitude of reasons- most especially the cash influx from this super kit deal.
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No, not really. Most fans have felt the same way for a few seasons. Hardly a light bulb moment.
Ogden can be a bit reactionary can't he. Jumping on an overloaded bandwagon if you ask me.
Good post that. It's a lot more complex than "value=bad" "over-spending=good" and you've nailed a lot of the subtleties there. Ogden plagiarised the wrong post.
I think we need to improve our scouting department dramatically and be more willing to take a punt on talented young players even before they reach the portuguese league. We can do with a few more South American scouts to unearth the next big thing. If visas are an issue, we can always re-establish our sporting links with the top Portuguese clubs and try to have first refusal on their top talents.
Agreed, the no value in the market policy destroyed the quality of the squad on the long term
After the departing of long service players (Vds, Rio, Vidic, Evra, Neville, Scholes, Giggs, Park, the Ronaldo sale, replaced by Valencia) the squad imploded.
Now to come back on the top it is necessary to spend 200 million/year for I dunno of how many years...
Despite the recent invstments the squad is still quite laughable...
During these years we have had a healty core of great players. But, the additions the last years have been largely squad players and it has been signed a couple of players too many of lesser quality. When we then also had at least five or six key players getting to old the last year, we entered a time of transition that is similar to the Djemba Djemba days. I don't think the value thing was bad at all, but we failed to see the end to some of our key players and they have to be replaced by players of greater quality.
When you factor in the manager change and Gill leaving, we have all sort of challanges and changes to make. A lot of decisions has to be right, all at the same time or fast not to loose more years of CL football. To invest heavily now will in reality not cost us at all if it brings us back to the CL and it will maintain/add to our fan base and keep us attractive to sponsors.
The most important thing this year was to sign the best players possible and without CL that is probably a bit difficult, but the Glazers, Woodward and LvG clearly understood this and has done great. I feel we are getting a leadership structure at Our Club that will keep us going stong. Ok, it has been a challanging year, but I have confidence in the owners, Woodward and the manager.
Future looking good if we keep this up. If we add one more midfielder and get the deadwood out, we can start to add some value players again.
When you factor in the manager change and Gill leaving, we have all sort of challanges and changes to make. A lot of decisions has to be right, all at the same time or fast not to loose more years of CL football. To invest heavily now will in reality not cost us at all if it brings us back to the CL and it will maintain/add to our fan base and keep us attractive to sponsors.
The most important thing this year was to sign the best players possible and without CL that is probably a bit difficult, but the Glazers, Woodward and LvG clearly understood this and has done great. I feel we are getting a leadership structure at Our Club that will keep us going stong. Ok, it has been a challanging year, but I have confidence in the owners, Woodward and the manager.
Future looking good if we keep this up. If we add one more midfielder and get the deadwood out, we can start to add some value players again.
I don't believe there was no value in the market there were plenty of players that went for bargain prices in the last 5 to 6 years namely Vidal to Juve, Reus to Bvb, Ozil to madrid, Robben to Bayern, Sneijder to Inter, Silva to Mancity, Toure to City, Oscar and Mata to Chelsea, Suarez to Liverpool etc, all of these players went for prices between 10 to 25 million pounds, but we just didn't sign them and instead went for proven Premiership players and spent ridiculous amounts on Valencia, Young, Zaha, Fellani , when they clearly weren't worth the price paid or went for cheapish players like Obertan, Tosic etc . I would say our decline is due to a combination of plenty of things firstly scouting has been pretty poor we are neither able to unearth great young players who go on to become World class players, nor sign players who are clearly talented and just need a big move, we would rather wait and let the big clubs snatch them for peanuts and then pay ridiculous amount to get them.
Fergie had a big role to play in it as well, we love the man, but he let the squad rot and when he did invest, he was happy to invest in quantity rather than quality, he never invested in certain markets due to which we didn't sign players of certain nationalities namely German, and sentimentalism was another thing due to which we are suffering now, players like Nani, Valencia, Young, Anderson would have longed being shiped out by any other top side, and Giggs and Scholes going on and depending on them, instead of them being mere option and there to keep the squad harmony and learn from them was another mistake. So overall our Decline and Transfer policy is related of course and this value notion is coming to haunt us back because we are left with players with limited ability which are difficult to offload and on ridiculous wages which others won't pay.
Fergie had a big role to play in it as well, we love the man, but he let the squad rot and when he did invest, he was happy to invest in quantity rather than quality, he never invested in certain markets due to which we didn't sign players of certain nationalities namely German, and sentimentalism was another thing due to which we are suffering now, players like Nani, Valencia, Young, Anderson would have longed being shiped out by any other top side, and Giggs and Scholes going on and depending on them, instead of them being mere option and there to keep the squad harmony and learn from them was another mistake. So overall our Decline and Transfer policy is related of course and this value notion is coming to haunt us back because we are left with players with limited ability which are difficult to offload and on ridiculous wages which others won't pay.
Careful now, you will have glazer supporters quoting random figures to support the ridiculous idea that they invested properly in the squad!
Are some parts of the media actually blaming Ferguson? I gained new found respect for him for what he did with that piss poor side in 2012/13.
Could have kept the team of 2008 and I still think Moyes would have failed, Ferguson was one of a kind, and it didn't matter what side they had, it was widely thought they'd fall apart when he left (as much as Utd fans didn't want to admit it.)
Could have kept the team of 2008 and I still think Moyes would have failed, Ferguson was one of a kind, and it didn't matter what side they had, it was widely thought they'd fall apart when he left (as much as Utd fans didn't want to admit it.)