40s Draft R1 - Balu vs Invictus | Invictus wins 10-8!

[Moby]

Team Balu​

Tactics:
We're playing in a 433 shape. It's nothing too complicated. The plan is to keep it safe in defense, protect the back four against the threat of Eusebio and Mazzola on the counter and rely on the attack to create chances for arguably the most lethal finisher of all time. The following three parts will explain how the players connect with each other.

Attack:
I'll talk a bit more about Gerd Müller during the match. He's often a bit misunderstood, seen only as the greatest poacher of all time, but there's much more to his game than that. His first touch wasn't elegant, but flawless nevertheless. He often used it in a rather unconvential way to create space for himself and finish chances from a position the defenders didn't expect.

If there's one thing that Müller lacked in his game, it's dribbling. It's difficult to say, if he just hated doing it or sucked at it. The truth is, he never even attempted dribbles, he was always a player who loved to connect with his teammates instead through short passing, playing 1-2s. The strength in my attack is that the other 3 attackers all offer outstanding dribbling. Rensenbrink and Magnusson on the wings play their natural game, provide service for Müller but can also score themselves. The one running the show in midfield is the wonderful Nicolae Dobrin. He's a complete attacking midfielder, often dropping deep, spraying the ball around the halfway line but also excellent at dribbling, carrying the ball forward or scoring himself. He'll make sure that the attack won't ever be isolated from my midfield.

Spoiler: Nicolae Dobrin in short

Dobrin spent pretty much all his career at his home town club FC Argeș Pitești. He refused to move to a bigger Romanian club, so he carried the club on his own for 2 decades. Twice he lead them to the league title, the only trophies the club has won in its entire history. In the European Cup in 1972/73 Arges faced Real Madrid in the round of the last16. A brilliant display by Dobrin helped the team win the first leg, but in the end they lost narrowly 3-4 on aggregate. He impressed Real's famous president Santiago Bernabeu so much, that he offered a record 2 million dollar to sign him. The political situation in Romania prevented the move from happening though. Bernabeu even traveled to Romania to personally talk to Ceaușescu, but the Communist leader couldn't be persuaded.

Central Midfield:
Cornel Dinu played as a sweeper for his nationalteam, but was a brilliant defensive midfielder for most of his club career. His trademark long diagonal passes will find the wingers countless times. Next to him we have one of the scariest box to box players ever. Romeo Benetti is a brilliant allrounder with a very good short passing game and he will run himself into the ground for the team. The perfect complement next to Dinu.

Defense and Goalkeeper:
We're quite versatile in defense. A lot depends on how our opponent sets up. Invictus doesn't have an out and out winger in his side and relies on his wingbacks to provide width, which opens up quite a few possibilites for my fullbacks to tuck in and defend narrowly, therefore reducing the space to exploit for Eusebio and Mazzola even further. Both Vogts and Cuccureddu are excellent for that. We'll start in a regular back four with Pierluigi Frosio and Dragan Holcer as the central defenders. And we have Pat Jennings in goal. If eveything else fails, that'll help.

Spoiler: Frosio & Holcer

Pierluigi Frosio was the star of the invincible Perugia side of 1978/79. They're often considered as one of the greatest sides never to win the league in Italy. Despite going unbeaten all season, the huge numbers of draws meant they finished behind Milan. Perugia's young manager, Ilario Castagner, built a modern defensive set-up, inspired by the Dutch way of defending, and found in Frosio the 'Beckenbauer of Perugia'. He was of similar stature, elegant, strong with excellent technique. A master of sweeping up behind the defense and initiating attacks from the back. Perugia conceded only 16 goals in 30 games, the best defensive record in the league and that 2nd place is still the club's best ever league finish.

Dragan Holcer is the perfect partner, a fantastic stopper, tactically disciplined and great in the air. He's a legend at 2 clubs. At Hajduk Split as a part of the club's golden generation in the 70's and at Stuttgart. I can't comment on how great he actually was playing for Split. I've seen him in Bundesliga games for Stuttgart though, towards the end of his career and he was still fantastic. A calming and intelligent presence, who rarely did anything wrong. At that point his athletism had declined after a serious injury, but from what I've heard and read, he had to be a truely brilliant defender in his prime during the 70's. Even though he wasn't part of the Stuttgart side anymore, when they finally won the league title, his influence on establishing the club between the top teams in the league and developing that strong defensive core around Karl-Heinz Förster can't be understated.

Spoiler: Vogts & Cuccu

Good luck @Invictus

TEAM BALU

TEAM INVICTUS

 

[Moby]

Team Invictus​

Good luck @Balu.

Link to player profiles in draft thread.


Defense

Ivo Viktor is the 11th outfield player. A marvelous shot stopper and dominant in the air, he had excellent control over his area, was comfortable on the ball, and can even be the genesis of the team's attacking moves. The defensive line is marshaled by of one of the greatest central defenders and charismatic leaders of all time, and the second greatest South American defender of the 1960s : 'El Mariscal' Roberto Perfumo, famous for his positional intelligence, anticipation and covering skills. Joining him at the heart of the central defense is a man who complements him perfectly : 'The Bull', West German international Wolfgang Weber, a Köln legend and one of the best stoppers in the history of Germany who specialized in man marking, uncompromising stoutness, and tracking movement. They are flanked by the no-nonsense Brazilian international Rildo da Costa, a star of Pelé's Santos team, and a player considered to be the most defensively astute Brazilian leftback of all time. Superb at marking, physically dominant, agile and an expert and slide tackling, he can isolate any dangers on the left side of the field. Rounding up the defensive line is Wim Suurbier, The Flying Dutchman, one of the most legendary attacking rightbacks of all time, who owned the entire right flank for both Ajax and The Netherlands during their Golden Age in the 1970s. More on Suurbier later, because stereotypical arguments regarding him might be forthcoming, and are expected.

Central Midfield

Although 2 players have been listed under his header, it's much more flexible than that. Both the advanced midfielders - Hristo Bonev and Sandro Mazzola offer the versatility, tactical intelligence and experience to drift deeper, and flood the center of the pitch if need be, or form a marvelous transitional link. Arie Haan needs no introduction. He can be plugged in any position in the midfield and defense, and he'll do a superb job of it. Equally comfortable in defending, breaking down plays, marking, passing, covering for Suurbier like he did for Krol, or going for goal, he is the best and most complete defensive midfielder on the pitch, and a very essential component of the team. He is joined by Paulo César Carpegiani, the architect, the #6 Volante midfield Maestro of both Internacional and Botafogo. Always around the ball, the Brazilian international has the ability to dictate the rhythm of the game in Carrick-esque fashion, whilst being a solid protective shield for the defense.

Spoiler: Carpegiani Sample

Dominates the midfield area with Rivellino, a player not very different from Sandro Mazzola in effect. Excellent control of the game rhythm and timing of passes, great positioning always, builds up to some key moves, constantly on the move and available for the pass, extremely high workrate, and is a veritable thorn in the feet of the Argentine attackers.

Charted the game at x2 speed, slowed down for his bits in the defensive phase, and :

Tackles won 4
Int 5
Dispossess opponent 10

11:45 Dispossesses Kempes.
12:26 Dispossesses Balbuena and launches counter with Jairzinho
13:00 Starts move with Rivelino that leads to shot on goal.
14:00 Presses Kempes until he is dispossessed.
30:30 Dispossesses outside box.
35:45 Dispossesses Kempes again.
39:15 Wins tackle outside box.
42:45 Int.
49:12 Sends Jairzinho through on goal.
51:35 Int.
58:11 Nice skill.
65:15 Pressing ball carrier.
65:45 Starts off move that leads to free kick in front of Argentina's goal.
67:10 Dispossesses Ayala.
68:50 Intercepts and starts counter.
69:10 Again there to receive ball and almost assists goal with beautiful chip.
74:45 Interception.
81:10 Dispossesses ball carrier.
91 First to shake referee's hand.

Match log is a bit rushed, can rewatch for more info, and clarifications. He's #17 for Brazil, and the commentator refers to him as Paulo César (of Internacional). Prominent throughout, in both phases of the game.

Advanced Midfield

This is where things start to get very, very tasty for those who prefer attacking football - this duo is among the greatest attacking midfielders of time, and arguably the greatest tandem in the entire draft. 9 time Ballon D'Or nominee Sandro Mazzola was the iconic attacking heart for some legendary Internazionale teams, led Italy to the 1968 European Championship, and the finals of the 1970 World Cup. He is joined by 4 time Ballon D'Or nominee, the Bulgarian legend, Hristo Bonev. A god of the art of play making, he can dribble past opponents with ease, which allied with his superb vision, excellent positioning skills and awe-inspiring passing range makes him perfectly suited to the team. And, he scored about 250 goals for club and country.

Forwards

László Fazekas is a prototypical jack in the box. Possesses relentless work ethic, can drift out wide, he can press the defenders, brilliant crosser, decisive passer, can dribble with aplomb, set up team-mates and score heaps of goals evidenced by his record of 300 goals for club, and 24 for the Hungarian national team. He will scrap all day long, and is a nightmare for defenders with his drive and determination. Fazekas is joined by The Black Pearl, The Black Panther, O Rei, whatever you want to call him. 11 times Ballon D'Or nominee, multiple Golden Boot winner, a frightening one man army, Eusébio doesn't even need any help to demolish a defense. And like the other attackers, he is versatile in his movement, passing, and dribbling skills, apart from providing yet another goal outlet - 679 goals in 678 games per FIFA, not too shabby that.

 

[Moby]

Gameplan

The team will play a balanced style. We will dictate the flow of the game, and control possession, but won't be super obsessed about it, or leave the defense stranded. Well timed runs, organisation, and team ethic when the ball is lost and we need to press - all the outfield players were tireless workers both offensively and defensively. The midfield is really cagey, and tough, enabling us to direct the traffic whilst simultaneously buffering the defense.

The defense will play a medium line, with only Suurbier allowed much positional freedom. The Marshal will be the leader of the pack, and will constantly bark positioning orders to maintain the integrity of the setup. It is stout enough to handle inevitable bombardments, especially with Viktor's aerial prowess and feline shot-stopping skills. Also, let's address the Suurbier shaped elephant in the room. He is one of the greatest attacking fullbacks of all time, and gets stereotypically casted as a poor defender as a consequence. Is he a Bergomi is defense? Not really. But in the scheme of my team, he will make calculated forays forward while offering tremendous energy to go with Fazekas further forward, and Haan in the center. He has the ability to provide an ever-present threat down the flank which cannot be ignored, doesn't stop running ever, and in Arie Haan, he has the perfect buffer in terms of positional responsibility, and defensive solidity.

Spoiler: Golden Cock

Arie demonstrates his positioning skills perfectly to make up for Ruud Krol's attacking ventures here.

Spoiler: Wim

Suurbier displays a well rounded game here, always providing an outlet, excelling in all phases.

On to the next level, both the central midfielders are ideal vanguards with their blend of positional intelligence, stamina, work-rate, wide array of passing, and grit. They are the ideal players for the scheme. And I'll have greater control of the midfield area. In Haan, Carepgiani and Mazzola/ Bonev I can produce midfield trios that complement each other brilliantly, all of them are energetic and defensively aware, and highly composed on the ball. Haan is the do-it all type, who can mix roles between being a traditional midfielder and a sweeper. Carpegiani has immaculate touch, pass timing, and vision to go with great defensive responsibility. Mazzola and Bonev can effortlessly link the midfield to attack. The likes of Benetti and presumably Dinu whilst not super-poor on the ball was no Haan and Carpegiani.

Here is a sample of what Mazzola for example can do as a passing source when he's allowed the liberty to drop slightly deeper :

Spoiler: Sandro vs Poland

In attack, there is a core of 4 dynamic players who can all score (1500 goals between the lot), can all dribble, create chances for team-mates, 2 excellent headers of the ball in Bonev and Eusébio, excellent free kick takers, all very hard workers an dynamic, and in Fazekas and Bonev I have 2 attackers who can make all sorts of dummy runs to free space for Eusébio and Mazzola, be it sticking to the flank or drifting inwards. They opposition will have a very hard time countering the collective, the tempo of the attack, and extremely diverse goal threat they will provide.

Spoiler: Couple of gifs to illustrate what the attackers can produce

Mazzola on a devastating counter (can imagine him linking with with Eusébio) :

Mazzola's goal threat when he arrives just outside the box :

Mazzola's endless energy and pressing skills can throw defenders off :

One touch passing and goal while rushing from the midfield area, Eusébio can and will occupy multiple defenders opening up spaces like this :

Counter from deep as 3rd man in attack. Eusébio + Mazzola + Fazekas can be scary to counter :

Small Eusébio clips, can do it all.

Fazekas too :

Beautiful weight on the ball by Fazekas to Nyilasi and leads to a goal for Hungary. Can create great synergy with Eusébio + Mazzola + Bonev's ever present threat :

Fazekas cuts in from the right side with a monster left footed shot to scored from outside the box, Suurbier will supply him balls like that all day long.

Fazekas with the corner, and a delivery into the box that is headed away, doesn't matter, scores anyway :

Fazekas outwits his marker on the right flank, shimmies past another defender, avoids the third to assist the header for Nyilasi that goes wide of Pfaff, as Gerets is in no man's land and can only stand and watch. Can see Eusébio and Bonev capitalizing on such deliveries.

 

[Moby]

Why my team will win

Stalemate in defense, Wim's defensive play will inevitably be targeted, but it's not a concern - Cuccureddu isn't a great forward threat, and Fazekas provides great work-rate down the right hand flank to mesh with Suurbier's energy, plus Haan will always monitor dangerous situations. Also Suurbier's a more comprehensive threat than Vogts, Perfumo is the best central defender of pitch, and has the perfect physical partner in Weber. Rildo will be impassable on the left flank, especially with Vogts offering weak offensive threat. Also, Bonev, Mazzola and Fazekas were exceptional in the defensive phase for attackers, as opposed to Dobrin and Magnusson, which will give us the upper hand when containing the opposition as a unit.

I have a clear advantage in midfield. The likes of Benetti were great defensively and decent at passing, but Haan and Carpegiani aren't just great defensive screens with superb positioning nous, tackling ability, and enormous work-rate, they are both really, really good on the ball in relative terms.

Spoiler: Golden Cock goes to the World Cup final

The latter especially was renowned as a Maestro, a cultured Volante, and was generally the first man the goalkeepers passed to when building from the back. Both Mazzola and Bonev can recede slightly centrally on the occasion, and unlike a Dobrin, they are both excellent defensively as far as attacking threats are concerned. Sandro especially was trained under Helenio Herrera, he will provide way more defensive effort and grit, than broke ass Nicolae (shots fired, his dribbling montages will inevitably get posted, but he's no Sandro offensively, apart from Sandro being a far better effort player), Dobrin was more of a showman. Carpegiani negotiated the likes of Kempes in the World Cup, and went against the great Brazilians domestically, he can take care of what their midfield and attacking midfielder has to offer, while screening the defense. There will be a major advantage in the center.

Can totally envision something like this happening :

Spoiler: Sandro Polska

Look at where Mazzola gets the ball against 1974 World Cup semi-finalists Poland. That's atleast 60 odd yards from goal. And then watch what he does when chased by the defensively weak Deyna (who Dobrin is comparable to in terms of deensive effort, also Magnusson was light defensively). FWIW, the gif cuts, and it didn't lead to a goal, but just to illustrate how Mazzola created something all by himself, a million miles away from goal. Fazekas is gonna put it in the back of the net all day long. Mazzola played in La Grande Inter's school of Catenaccio, he understands his defensive duties perfectly, can drop into his own half, help out his midfield, and then burst forward up the pitch. Balu will have to sit deep to account for Eusébio's running threat, opening up all kinds of spaces for the rest of my attack and midfield.

The opposition can try and target Suurbier, but with Fazekas being an effervescent presence in both phases of the game, and Haan beside him, it's not gonna happen.

The opposition will have to rely on Müller and Rensenbrink as constant goal production threats. Dobrin and Magnusson weren't exactly super prolific. Which suits my team fine to be honest. Rensenbrink will be well shepherded. Müller was ace, sure - absolutely not going to deny it in fairness. He's the greatest, most ruthless poacher in football history as far as I'm concerned. And I appreciate that despite him being an opposition player. But he can be isolated and controlled by the excellent duo of Weber and Perfumo. And Viktor will scoop up aerial bombardments all day long if too many crosses as send in from wider areas.

Eusébio will take multiple markers to control, if he's not marked constantly, he will run riot. Gifs of Nobby and the likes might be brought up, but that was the exception to the norm for The Black Pearl, a couple of games doth not a career make. He is as good of a scorer as Müller, evidenced by his record of a goal per game, but he is a significantly better all round threat who will drag defenders and open up spaces, dribble directly with a combination of strength and blinding pace, create for the others around him, and vice versa with the combination of Fazekas and Bonev and Mazzola creating chances for Eusébio.

Also, one of the luxuries of having such all round gifted offensive weapons, is that they can all move synchronously, instead of just the one man being targeted, which will be the case with Der Bomber, and to a lesser extent Rensenbrink.

We can form multiple offensive fronts aside from the base template given how prolific and versatile everyone is, without compromising creativity or goal-scoring capacity :

Spoiler: Configurations

We can create overloads to one side to combine Suubier's menace, and strand Vogts, or Mazzola and Bonev (who also played as a central midfielder) can drop slightly deeper, like he did vs Polska, allowing Haan slight freedom to have a lethal shot from distance, or freeing Carpegiani who had an exceptional goal record from midfield :

Or even Eusébio could drift slightly deeper like he did for Guttman, pulling a marker, and freeing Mazzola with his pace and technique to lose his marker, and have clear chances on goal :

Or the fullbacks can be pinned back by a combination of Bonev and Fazekas, in sync with Suurbier, while Carpegiani and Haan soak up the pressure, or fill in for Wim, allowing the duo of Eusébio and Mazzola to rip the defense to shreds.

The combinations are virtually limitless when the players are this versatile, and offer exceptional quality.

Dobrin scored just 6 goals in 50 matches for Romania, and Magnusson scored 3 for Sweden. That's pretty underwhelming to be honest, and their club productivity isn't glittering either. My goal-threats are more diverse, Eusébio can create and score, as can Fazekas, Bonev and Mazzola (combined for 1500 goals between the four of them, and more equally distributed instead of Müller inflating the opposition's total); Haan and Suurbier were exceptional at long range shots (Haan's goals vs Italy and West Germany are the stuff of legends), and Carpegiani had 13 goals in 30 matches for Brazil despite being a central holding midfielder. The goal sources are too diversified to control. Also, I can see the dirty Vogts hacking Bonev down when Hristo goes wide. And in Bonev and Eusébio my team has two excellent set piece takers, backed up by Haan who can feast on rebounds to score long range screamers from the resulting clearances.

Also, we will not afford them any time or space on the ball. All my outfield players are capable of giving 110% effort, and are tactically flexible to an extent, unlike atleast a couple of the opponents who were slackers in the defensive phase, and can't always keep up. More commitment, more desire, more sources of creativity in the team even if he tries to kill a couple, goal sources all over the pitch, my midfield is more balanced while being defensively secure, and attack more potent and diverse, fiery leaders all over, his wide threats can be contained, which can leave Müller in a spot of bother. He isn't a walking terror who can create chances for himself, run at defenders, behind them, power through them, and set up others like my main man Eusébio can and will.

 

[Moby]

@Balu
@Invictus

Good luck gentlemen.

 

[Balu]

We should really start a Redcafe retro football blog thing. I'll read all that tonight when I'm back home (3 posts for tactics and 3 posts for the player profiles is a new record, right?), and I'll read @Gol123 write-up as well over the next few days. There's so much brilliant information about football players from past decades in these fantasy draft games on here. It's a shame that most of it gets burried deep in the redcafe thread history.

And it seems that every new generation of draft junkies puts even more effort into it than the one before. It's crazy and also brilliant.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

We should really start a Redcafe retro football blog thing. I'll read all that tonight when I'm back home (3 posts for tactics and 3 posts for the player profiles is a new record, right?), and I'll read @Gol123 write-up as well over the next few days. There's so much brilliant information about football players from past decades in these fantasy draft games on here. It's a shame that most of it gets burried deep in the redcafe thread history.

And it seems that every new generation of draft junkies puts even more effort into it than the one before. It's crazy and also brilliant.

Aye its nuts. So many managers researching carefully these days. It does make a big difference to the credibility of a manager's arguments when you realise they've actually made the effort to watch footage of their players, as is the case here. In the earliest drafts it was pretty clear that some managers were very unfamiliar with the players.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Invictus - "Dobrin scored just 6 goals in 50 matches for Romania, and Magnusson scored 3 for Sweden. That's pretty underwhelming to be honest, and their club productivity isn't glittering either."

Magnusson played 14 games overall for Sweden because in his peak Marseilles manager Henri Leclerc refused to let him play for the national team as he was too important for them. Your point still stands though, Magnusson was the opposite of a goalscorer and pretty unique in that regard considering he was renowned for his dribbling ability which earned him the nickname "The Swedish Garrincha".

Not because he was a poor finisher, he scored 47 in 97 games for Åtvidaberg but rather because he was nearly unstoppable at beating his man then providing an assists and he amassed an astounding 90 assists in those 97 games as well. Not read about any player who reached those kind of figures when it comes to assists.

He was rather odd as he was brutally efficient from the wing, he didn't look to beat his man completely like a modern winger and then cut inside to get clear on goal but neither was he a Beckham type who would hug the side line. He would play the game from a similar position as the modern day inside forwards, but he would rather use his dribbling to gain a yard on the opponent and then cut open the defense with a pass or a great cross instead.

A lot harder to defend against and also a much higher success rate as completely ghosting through your opponent is a lot more difficult to achieve.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Balu's left flank vs Suurbier will be productive.

Not sure if I'd prefer Eusebio leading the line. He was devastating dropping deep running at the defence. Mazzola though is perfectly placed, but Balu's defensive midfield should play their parts.

Vogts there should beef up defence and it's be an interesting battle between him and Bonev.

Edging towards Balu...

 

[Pat_Mustard]

What's everyone's thoughts on Eusebio leading the line? Personally I think he's clearly got the skill set for it, but he did play for much of his peak alongside a target man in Jose Augusto Torres, and when we had him in the All-Time Auction Draft the consensus was that someone else should play in the No. 9 role.

Other than that, I feel Benetti got a harsh appraisal in Invictus' write up (which was excellent btw). From what I've seen and read, he was a monster defensively and more than competent on the ball too.

 

[Gol123]

Eusebio, Mazzola and Bonev is ridiculous. However, I think Balu has the better defense and Vogts will have little trouble dealing with Bonev (Nothing against Bonev but Vogts was that good). Balu will also get lots of goals in Muller and Rensenbrink. Question is, who will score more?

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Balu's left flank vs Suurbier will be productive.

Not sure if I'd prefer Eusebio leading the line. He was devastating dropping deep running at the defence. Mazzola though is perfectly placed, but Balu's defensive midfield should play their parts.

Vogts there should beef up defence and it's be an interesting battle between him and Bonev.

Edging towards Balu...

Right on cue

 

[Balu]

Also, one of the luxuries of having such all round gifted offensive weapons, is that they can all move synchronously, instead of just the one man being targeted, which will be the case with Der Bomber, and to a lesser extent Rensenbrink.

@Invictus
I disagree with quite a lot you wrote in your essay but this sticks out.

Gerd Müller was an incredibly mobile player, who constantly made himself available to receive passes all over the pitch. Quite often he dropped really deep, passed the ball wide and stayed behind the ball while the wingers attacked the space that opened up when defenders followed him. Then he used his movement to find open space in the box to finish. He's not easily isolated and you really underrate how fluid, almost total football - esque Germany in the 70's and to a lesser degree Bayern played. He's not just a target in the box with everyone else just trying to find him. He'd love to connect with his teammates, play 1-2s in and around the box.

In comparison, Eusebio was actually a true individual. Not in an egoistic sense of course, far from it. He was a force of nature, a more rounded attacker than Müller, but in my opinion at his best as a 2nd striker who wasn't asked to drag defenders around or follow a tactical concept with collective, synchronised movement. You make it sound as if you want him to play a tactical complex false 9 role, but that wasn't really his game. When Eusebio broke into Benfica's first team, he played deeper, first behind Aguas. And even later, when he played behind Torres it was a similar set-up.

 

[Gol123]

Here is the problem I have with Mazzola and Eusebio. Both of these players at their best were second strikers playing off of a target mam. The worry would be whether they are both doing the same job and making the same runs/moves?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

First thoughts are all I can sneak on the phone during the vacation! Match gets over before I can return to the thread.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Here is the problem I have with Mazzola and Eusebio. Both of these players at their best were second strikers playing off of a target mam. The worry would be whether they are both doing the same job and making the same runs/moves?

Yeah, as Pat said Eusebio can play that role nicely though it's not his best position.

I really see Invictus team working as a sort of False 9 formation and with the players he has it would be incredibly difficult to defend against. Fazekas is the piece that would make or break that attack imo.

 

[Invictus]

Sorry, just got back. Had a niece. Yay me!

Will read up and reply in like 15-20 mins.

 

[Gol123]

I do really like Invictus's attack though. I also really like Balu's balance in all parts of his team.

 

[Balu]

than broke ass Nicolae (shots fired, his dribbling montages will inevitably get posted, but he's no Sandro offensively, apart from Sandro being a far better effort player), Dobrin was more of a showman.

I don't bite. If people want to believe your hilarious exaggerations, I'll live.
Stuff like:

Also, I can see the dirty Vogts hacking Bonev down when Hristo goes wide.

Seriously? You don't have anyone in your side who comes even remotely close to Vogts' defensive abilities. And Bonev certainly isn't Cruyff anyway.

or

The likes of Benetti and presumably Dinu whilst not super-poor on the ball was no Haan and Carpegiani.

is just cute and really, really silly.

@Invictus

 

[Invictus]

Balu's left flank vs Suurbier will be productive.

Do think Suurbier's apparent defensive frailties are overplayed around these parts. And it's not like Cuccureddu will breeze past Fazekas to join Rensenbrink in attack, given Fazekas' relentless playing style. Also conversely, my right flank of Fazekas and Suurbier will be productive against his left flank. Fazekas was a very dangerous player, and with Suurbier behind him, that's a dangerous combination.

Not sure if I'd prefer Eusebio leading the line. He was devastating dropping deep running at the defence. Mazzola though is perfectly placed, but Balu's defensive midfield should play their parts.

To be fair, it's not about preferences and positional compartmentalization. Not every team has to play with a strict Van Basten-esque target man. Eusébio had the skill set to play in the position, and he fits into the overall attacking unit perfectly. The selection should ideally be judged on the merit of the overall scheme.

Seriously? You don't have anyone in your side who comes even remotely close to Vogts' defensive abilities. And Bonev certainly isn't Cruyff anyway.

I have acknowledged Vogts' quality as a defender. Don't take it in the wrong way mate. But he did commit a lot of fouls, which was the basis of that particular argument. Don't see how it was hilarious to be honest. It's something that can definitely be schemed around from my perspective, given Bonev and Eusébio strength on set pieces. Isn't the point of game planning also to account for certain tendencies the opposition might have, and can be exploited?

is just cute and really, really silly.

It isn't mate, there is a big gulf in quality in relative terms, which was the underlying point. Haan and Carpegiani were both quality passers of the ball, especially the latter, for both Internacional and Botafogo. Dinu was more of a up field/ long crossing threat than someone who excelled at maintaining the rhythm of the match. And similarly, Benetti was a defensively astute box to box whose game wasn't predicated on being a brilliant passer of the ball. There is a distinct gulf in passing quality here, and it should be acknowledged. Can easily envision the duo of Benetti and Dino losing out their control of the midfield to Carpegiani and Haan, which is where most matches are decided at the end of the day.

 

[harms]

re: Vogts style of defending

I feel like this is the first draft in quite a long time when we can stop with this "today he would've been sent off" arguments and imagine that we are playing by 60-70's rules, where the likes of Vogts played and dominated defensively. And it's not like he was Gentile-esque in his style (and even with Gentile the point about his constant fouls is overplayed).

 

[Chesterlestreet]

re: Vogts style of defending

I feel like this is the first draft in quite a long time when we can stop with this "today he would've been sent off" arguments and imagine that we are playing by 60-70's rules, where the likes of Vogts played and dominated defensively. And it's not like he was Gentile-esque in his style (and even with Gentile the point about his constant fouls is overplayed).

Fair point.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Some segments are slightly harsh from Invictus but it's a cracking write up overall. Agreed with Balu's appraisal of Müller and I can see him working exceptionally well with Magnusson and Rensenbrink. However, I'm not too sold on Dobrin connecting them all together though. He has a good pass on him but seems to be far too individualistic with his dribbling and also seems to be quite the ball-hogger. Two out of that trio could have been fine but all three together seems a bit of an overkill. Would love to be proven wrong though.

Generally don't like seeing Eusebio as the centre-forward but in this scenario, he has a Fazekas who seems like a Rummenigge type goalscoring wide-forward who will give Eusebio the freedom to drop deep when he desires. Can see Mazzola's ingenuity and Eusebio's sheer directness working really well too. I'm more concerned about Bonev's position as he seemed like a central AM from what little I've watched of him. Also given Rildo's defensive gameplay it does leave the left flank a bit undermanned. Generally I would have said Vogts isn't the ideal player to capitalise on that, with Rildo on Magnusson, but having watched footage of the 70s Gladbach side recently, I've grown to appreciate his attacking game a lot more.

Other than that two great teams and can't see much in between them.

 

[Balu]

but having watched footage of the 70s Gladbach side recently, I've grown to appreciate his attacking game a lot more.

People really should watch that Gladbach side a lot more. Judging Vogts on the '74 World Cup really is a bit sad. He sacrificed a lot of his natural game next to Beckenbauer and also Breitner in that backline. It's actually unfair to almost all the players bar maybe Beckenbauer. Even Müller was quite underwhelming (besides scoring the 2-1 in the final of course). It was a typical German tournament, underwhelming for the most part but getting the job done in the end. Sadly it overshadows the beautiful football we played in '70 and '72 and the wonderful free flowing football Bayern and Gladbach played during the 70's.

Some segments are slightly harsh from Invictus but it's a cracking write up overall. Agreed with Balu's appraisal of Müller and I can see him working exceptionally well with Magnusson and Rensenbrink. However, I'm not too sold on Dobrin connecting them all together though. He has a good pass on him but seems to be far too individualistic with his dribbling and also seems to be quite the ball-hogger. Two out of that trio could have been fine but all three together seems a bit of an overkill. Would love to be proven wrong though.

It's a fair point about Dobrin. But he never really played with teammates as brilliant as here and he was quite a selfless personality after all. You could say he was forced to do a lot of ball-hogging because of the lack of quality in his teams and the way I rate his character, I can see him adjusting really well and enjoying the free flowing game unfolding around him. I didn't plan on picking Magnusson though, but I rate him very highly and at that point he was just too good to ignore. But yeah, I get that it could be a minor issue with Dobrin, he might be forced to drop deeper than he usually played. But I don't think that would actually hurt my team.

 

[ThierryHenry]

Not too hot on 1940s Germany, I've voted Invictus.

 

[Balu]

It isn't mate, there is a big gulf in quality in relative terms, which was the underlying point. Haan and Carpegiani were both quality passers of the ball, especially the latter, for both Internacional and Botafogo. Dinu was more of a up field/ long crossing threat than someone who excelled at maintaining the rhythm of the match. And similarly, Benetti was a defensively astute box to box whose game wasn't predicated on being a brilliant passer of the ball. There is a distinct gulf in passing quality here, and it should be acknowledged. Can easily envision the duo of Benetti and Dino losing out their control of the midfield to Carpegiani and Haan, which is where most matches are decided at the end of the day.

I'm not claiming Benetti was a brilliant playmaker or anything like that, but his short passing is quite underrated in my opinion. He looked excellent under pressure, always doing basic things but he did it consistently really well. I really love my midfield set-up. It has a wonderful balance with all players offering something different, opening up different ways to get the ball forward. I rate Dinu's long ball passing higher than Haan's for example, that's good enough for me. It's exactly what I need, a strong defender who can give me an excellent direct option to my wingers on the counter. I don't think they'll lose control of the midfield easily. I'm actually not entirely sure what you mean by control. Your team is much more threatening if it attacks in a rather direct manner in my opinion. I don't mind if your midfielders hog the ball while Eusebio works with his back to goal in the penalty box.

I have acknowledged Vogts' quality as a defender. Don't take it in the wrong way mate. But he did commit a lot of fouls, which was the basis of that particular argument. Don't see how it was hilarious to be honest. It's something that can definitely be schemed around from my perspective, given Bonev and Eusébio strength on set pieces. Isn't the point of game planning also to account for certain tendencies the opposition might have, and can be exploited?

It's not true that he commited a lot of fouls in general and he definitely wasn't a dirty defender in any way. He was tough but actually quite fair and well respected. There's no way that he played more dirty than the other defenders of that era, including yours. Wolfgang Weber played every bit as hard as Vogts, he was quite famous for his tough style.

 

[Fergus' son]

Sorry, just got back. Had a niece. Yay me!

Will read up and reply in like 15-20 mins.

Congrats!

Voted for you too.

 

[Invictus]

I'm not claiming Benetti was a brilliant playmaker or anything like that, but his short passing is quite underrated in my opinion. He looked excellent under pressure, always doing basic things but he did it consistently really well. I really love my midfield set-up. It has a wonderful balance with all players offering something different, opening up different ways to get the ball forward. I rate Dinu's long ball passing higher than Haan's for example, that's good enough for me. It's exactly what I need, a strong defender who can give me an excellent direct option to my wingers on the counter. I don't think they'll lose control of the midfield easily. I'm actually not entirely sure what you mean by control. Your team is much more threatening if it attacks in a rather direct manner in my opinion. I don't mind if your midfielders hog the ball while Eusebio works with his back to goal in the penalty box.

Control as in we can dictate the tempo of the match from midfield, no team will robotic-ally go full throttle counter attack for 90 mins without any variation in the rhythm, even if they they have Eusébio, or Best or whomever. Directness works best in calculated bursts, hence the need to have good passers centrally. eg. United with Scholes under Fergie, Bayern under Heyneckes with Bastian and even Martinez, Madrid with Kroos and previously Alonso under Mourinho, and so forth. Some quality teams that had certain players that functioned best in a direct attacking system. But they always had that key in central midfield to orchestrate the proceedings. Your team is missing that element in its current guise. Individually, Vogts is the best fullback, and Perfumo is the best center-back on the pitch. But to be honest, neither defense is strong enough at this stage to contain all the offensive talent for the full 90 mins, a trend shared by almost every team until the defenses start to stack up with the big hitters in later rounds.

Which is why the central midfield needs to not only shield them, but be proficient while in possession to avert danger, spray the ball around, and build up for the forward players. Hence the word control. Dinu crossing out wide sounds good in theory, but in terms of incremental volume, the approach will lose its effectiveness as the match progresses, and the trend is figured out by virtue of becoming monotonous. Carpegiani and Haan can set Mazzola up (who as mentioned in the OP isn't just a superior attacker to Dobrin, but superior of the ball given his roots with Herrera, and the Italian national team). They can take the direct route to Eusébio, they can punt it up to Fazekas, they can combine with Bonev with quick, short passes. Their passing set is way more versatile. And Nicole will look out of place ahead of the two central midfielders, he won't always provide the level of effort off the ball that Sandro will, further weakening the center of the pitch.

Hence the previous Müller getting isolated argument. I get that he could link up with the other forwards, but here he will lose a lot of effectiveness when Dobrin can't get enough of the ball, and my midfield of Haan, Carpegiani, and Mazzola providing a release option has the ability to starve him of it, having an adverse domino effect on Müller's effectiveness in the box, where he was at his best, link-up play now-withstanding. If he keeps linking up and going backwards, who will lead the line? Who will be in the box to get at the end of crosses? It poses a significant conundrum, all stemming from the lack of an expert passer in midfield.

 

[Invictus]

Not too hot on 1940s Germany, I've voted Invictus.

Only the 1 vote, and that's from @Fergus' son. Keep 'em votes rolling lads!

 

[Balu]

Control as in we can dictate the tempo of the match from midfield, no team will robotic-ally go full throttle counter attack for 90 mins without any variation in the rhythm, even if they they have Eusébio, or Best or whomever. Directness works best in calculated bursts, hence the need to have good passers centrally. eg. United with Scholes under Fergie, Bayern under Heyneckes with Bastian and even Martinez, Madrid with Kroos and previously Alonso under Mourinho, and so forth. Some quality teams that had certain players that functioned best in a direct attacking system. But they always had that key in central midfield to orchestrate the proceedings. Your team is missing that element in its current guise. Individually, Vogts is the best fullback, and Perfumo is the best center-back on the pitch. But to be honest, neither defense is strong enough at this stage to contain all the offensive talent for the full 90 mins, a trend shared by almost every team until the defenses start to stack up with the big hitters in later rounds.

Which is why the central midfield needs to not only shield them, but be proficient while in possession to avert danger, spray the ball around, and build up for the forward players. Hence the word control. Dinu crossing out wide sounds good in theory, but in terms of incremental volume, the approach will lose its effectiveness as the match progresses, and the trend is figured out by virtue of becoming monotonous. Carpegiani and Haan can set Mazzola up (who as mentioned in the OP isn't just a superior attacker to Dobrin, but superior of the ball given his roots with Herrera, and the Italian national team). They can take the direct route to Eusébio, they can punt it up to Fazekas, they can combine with Bonev with quick, short passes. Their passing set is way more versatile. And Nicole will look out of place ahead of the two central midfielders, he won't always provide the level of effort off the ball that Sandro will, further weakening the center of the pitch.

Hence the previous Müller getting isolated argument. I get that he could link up with the other forwards, but here he will lose a lot of effectiveness when Dobrin can't get enough of the ball, and my midfield of Haan, Carpegiani, and Mazzola providing a release option has the ability to starve him of it, having an adverse domino effect on Müller's effectiveness in the box, where he was at his best, link-up play now-withstanding. If he keeps linking up and going backwards, who will lead the line? Who will be in the box to get at the end of crosses? It poses a significant conundrum, all stemming from the lack of an expert passer in midfield.

I get what you mean, but I simply don't see that happening or as a problem in my side, certainly not to a degree that would starve my attack off the ball. Both my wingers and Dobrin are happy to drop deep and initiate attacks if my defenders and my CMs struggle to play forward. I don't need a true deep lying playmaker here. I'm not sure how much you've seen of Rensenbrink at Anderlecht, but I remember him dropping deep to collect the ball almost of Haan's feet quite a lot. Rensenbrink was clearly the playmaker in that side and probably did as much for the build-up in CM as Arie Haan:

 

[Invictus]

I get what you mean, but I simply don't see that happening or as a problem in my side, certainly not to a degree that would starve my attack off the ball. Both my wingers and Dobrin are happy to drop deep and initiate attacks if my defenders and my CMs struggle to play forward. I don't need a true deep lying playmaker here. I'm not sure how much you've seen of Rensenbrink at Anderlecht, but I remember him dropping deep to collect the ball almost of Haan's feet quite a lot. Rensenbrink was clearly the playmaker in that side and probably did as much for the build-up as Arie Haan:

Fair enough. However, by dropping deep to aid Dinu and Benetti constantly, can the wingers be expected to maintain the structural integrity of the attack? Can Magnusson for example drop deep to receive the ball, then go past both the in-position Carpegiani and Rildo to provide the threat from out wide? I don't think so to be honest. They will inevitably leave massive pockets of space behind to be ruthlessly exploited, and one loss of possession could be deadly if Mazzola and Eusébio choose to counter centrally (which is the weakest part of your defense with the best defensive player at right back); or Fazekas and Suurbier out wide with Haan covering up.

Don't see how the configuration will work effectively when almost every top 4-2-3-1 setup has a deft passer at the heart of the midfield to dictate the tempo of the match. Cazorla at Arsenal, Fabregas at Chelsea last season, Toure is a very good one for City, Carrick for United, both Kroos and Modric for Madrid, Gundogan at Dortmund, and on and on. The only team that successfully functions without a top passer at the highest level of Champions League competition is Atletico. But they have a quality all-round defense, and central midfielders out wide in a jarring setup to gameplan around that.

Also, if your team is protecting a late lead, or want to slow down the temp of the match, what the plan? Sit deep and try to soak everything up? The defense is not stout enough to withstand an onslaught, and neither is mine in fairness. The easiest solution in that situation would be to pass the ball around with precision, release it when pressed, used the depth of the field, and figuratively expand the pitch. That option is kind of lost on your central midfield personnel.

 

[Balu]

Fair enough. However, by dropping deep to aid Dinu and Benetti constantly, can the wingers be expected to maintain the structural integrity of the attack? Can Magnusson for example drop deep to receive the ball, then go past both the in-position Carpegiani and Rildo to provide the threat from out wide? I don't think so to be honest.

You make it sound as if everything is static, which isn't the case at all. Of course wingers can drop deep, play 1-2s with other teammates and move forward in passing triangles or carry the ball themselves. Your midfielders can't do everything after all, they can't press my CMs to prevent them from doing the build-up themselves and cover the wingers dropping deeper to collect the ball. If one of my wingers drops deep, there are still three attacking players roaming around, moving into open space to receive a pass.

They will inevitably leave massive pockets of space behind to be ruthlessly exploited, and one loss of possession could be deadly if Mazzola and Eusébio choose to counter centrally (which is the weakest part of your defense with the best defensive player at right back).

Wait, now you jumped a few steps forward? Why would my wingers dropping deeper leave massive pockets of space behind to be ruthlessly exploited by your attackers? Do you plan on attacking your own goal?

And again, you overrate your CMs in comparison to mine. The gap is nowhere near as big as you make it sound. You won't dominate possession in a crazy van Gaal-esque way here. Most of your players aren't used to retain possession as a defensive concept either. This is an open game, going back and forth. And it'll be like that till the end.

 

[Invictus]

You make it sound as if everything is static, which isn't the case at all. Of course wingers can drop deep, play 1-2s with other teammates and move forward in passing triangles or carry the ball themselves. Your midfielders can't do everything after all, they can't press my CMs to prevent them from doing the build-up themselves and cover the wingers dropping deeper to collect the ball. If one of my wingers drops deep, there are still three attacking players roaming around, moving into open space to receive a pass.

There-in lies part of the problem though mate. Every time they drop deeper to collect the ball, there is inevitable wasted motion in terms of the directness of the team, which is what your attack is kind of predicated on. And it gives a chance for the opposition to align themselves accordingly. However, if the midfielder is an expert passer, and capable of threading or raking the ball, the transitions are much quicker and smoother, and IMO more effective because having a player who can pass in an array of ways can throw the defensive shape of the opposition into disarray at times. At worst it can provide a surprise element overall.

Wait, now you jumped a few steps forward? Why would my wingers dropping deeper leave massive pockets of space behind to be ruthlessly exploited by your attackers? Do you plan on attacking your own goal?

And again, you overrate your CMs in comparison to mine. The gap is nowhere near as big as you make it sound. You won't dominate possession in a crazy van Gaal-esque way here. Most of your players aren't used to retain possession as a defensive concept either. This is an open game, going back and forth. And it'll be like that till the end.

Nope, the opposition goal. There is always a chance to get dispossessed when a traditional winger is on the ball. It's an inevitable part of the price that has to be paid for their risk-taking and creativity. It might be better to use a graphic for this, one sec. hold on please :

Spoiler

Only one situation for example, doesn't always apply to your team in fairness, but just to illustrate the point. Here Rensenbrink (or player ABC) drifts deeper to collect the ball for example. X is where a traditional winger could've been if the CM's passing range was more superior. Y is where he is now. The attack has become more condensed instead of being expansive. And it can lead to something resembling this if he loses the ball :

The opposition can quickly transition to a counter, and the defenders, and defensive midfielders don't have enough time to position themselves properly because the pitch had been condensed, so there's less time to recover and regroup.

If however, the passer had greater range and guile, then this kind of situation could have been reduced because he can efficiently pass the ball horizontally, vertically and diagonally; maybe even punt it over the top to try and unsettle the defense. In general just mix things up with a wider array of passing moves. Players could still lose the ball, but the further forward they do it, the more ground the opposition has to cover (for example X in that position instead of Y), and the more time the defenders and defensive midfielders have to get in position to soak up the counter-attack.

Err, dunno if I explained what I was thinking properly, sorry if I didn't. But it can be a problem IMO.

 

[harms]

Only the 1 vote, and that's from @Fergus' son. Keep 'em votes rolling lads!

I believe that it was a Nazi joke

 

[Invictus]

I believe that it was a Nazi joke

Ooh snap!

 

[Balu]

Nope, the opposition goal. There is always a chance to get dispossessed when a traditional winger is on the ball. It's an inevitable part of the price that has to be paid for their risk-taking and creativity. It might be better to use a graphic for this, one sec. hold on please :

Come on, that's a silly assumption. Why would a winger take a crazy risk so deep in transition when all he does is drop deep to make himself available for an easy pass. Yeah, he could make a mistake, misplace a pass. But that can happen to every player on the pitch. And it's not that big of a problem, when I'm sitting deep with 4 defenders and 2 CMs behind him. I'd understand your point if you went full out pressing with your whole side, but that's a huge risk in itself, because then you need to commit more of your players forward and if for example Rensenbrink like in your example dribbles past Suurbier, your team is the one left exposed in attack.

I also don't understand why you cut half the team out of the equation. Obviously the rest of the players position themselves accordingly.

That picture doesn't make any sense by the way:

No one is putting pressure on Benetti in the first place. With Mazzola so high up front, where's Dinu and why wouldn't he be available for an open pass? Why wouldn't Müller move to the left and make himself available? Haan would still be forced to cover the passing lane to Dobrin.

Out of interest, how did in your opinion the Milan side with Benetti and Rivera work? From what I remember, they usually played with Rosati at DM, who was much more limited on the ball and Benetti as the sole midfielder connecting defense and attack and of course Rivera running the show. I really think you underrate Benetti in his box to box role here and overrate the need for a deep lying playmaker.

 

[green_smiley]

What's everyone's thoughts on Eusebio leading the line? Personally I think he's clearly got the skill set for it, but he did play for much of his peak alongside a target man in Jose Augusto Torres, and when we had him in the All-Time Auction Draft the consensus was that someone else should play in the No. 9 role.

Other than that, I feel Benetti got a harsh appraisal in Invictus' write up (which was excellent btw). From what I've seen and read, he was a monster defensively and more than competent on the ball too.

Benetti was a brilliant player. Was looking at some old Juventus matches when I researched for Chain Draft, and I am impressed by his involvement in the game

 

[green_smiley]

Gerd Müller was an incredibly mobile player, who constantly made himself available to receive passes all over the pitch. Quite often he dropped really deep, passed the ball wide and stayed behind the ball while the wingers attacked the space that opened up when defenders followed him. Then he used his movement to find open space in the box to finish. He's not easily isolated and you really underrate how fluid, almost total football - esque Germany in the 70's and to a lesser degree Bayern played. He's not just a target in the box with everyone else just trying to find him. He'd love to connect with his teammates, play 1-2s in and around the box.

Müller would not be one of, if not the best, striker of all-time if he limits to just goal poaching. He was a nuisance to the opponent's defense even when they had the ball. They just couldn't afford to leave him alone.

 

[Balu]

*push for a late comeback*

 

[Balu]

Fun facts about Gerd Müller as an introduction to the following post:

He was really scared of flying. Every time he landed safely after a flight, he put a 100 D-Mark bill in a different pocket to donate it to the church.

Fun fact number 2:
He was of course named 'kleines, dickes Müller' for a reason (it's a rather sweet wording for 'small, fat Müller', difficult to translate). Anyway, in 1968 Branco Zebec was the new manager at Bayern and he forced Müller to put two shirts on during all training session in pre-season, so that he would sweat more and lose more weight. It worked, he lost 4kg rather quickly, finished the season as the top scorer in the league and Bayern won the Bundesliga for the first time.