4000 consecutive first team matches with homegrown player(s) in the squad | 4284 as of 15 Dec 2024

Sunny Jim said:
Sorry for bumping the old thread but...


with McTominay gone, Rashford likely leaving the club am i right thinking that Mainoo is the only youth product in the squad now and the record is in somehow jeopardy?
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Garnacho, Evans, Heaton.

Amass, Collyer and Wheatley have all been on the bench this season. It’ll be fine for now but next season is a bit more of a risk, however I would be surprised if Amorim doesn’t find someone he likes from the reserves. Amass looks good for the wing back role or he might bring back Alvaro Fernandez who would count.
 
I think it’s a somewhat legitimate worry. Heaton won’t make the bench other than in the Europa League, and Rashford and Garnacho were taken out of the squad recently. Kobbie’s been struggling with injuries and form.

Most likely the bolded ones will make the squad until the end of the season, but last Sunday we were one Mainoo illness/knock away from ending the record.
 
I'm sure someone at the club will have told Ruben about this and he'll bring players in to the squad just to keep this amazing run going. They had that Kukonki kid in there the other day.
 
top1whoisman said:
I think it’s a somewhat legitimate worry. Heaton won’t make the bench other than in the Europa League, and Rashford and Garnacho were taken out of the squad recently. Kobbie’s been struggling with injuries and form.

Most likely the bolded ones will make the squad until the end of the season, but last Sunday we were one Mainoo illness/knock away from ending the record.
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That's true.

There might well be some games where it takes a conscious decision to put a Heaton or Evans on the bench solely for the record. In that moment, I guess it all hinges on whether Anorim actually wants to keep the record going as a proud history for the club - or is prepared to see it end as part of the reset and new beginning.

Hopefully he's happy to see it continue - there's certainly a lot the club do need to change and move away from going forward, but this record certainly isn't one of them and is something to be proud of.
 
It should be a record based on merit. If we start just calling someone up with no intention of bringing them on, just to keep the record, it’s a hollow record to have.

We shouldn’t be afraid to lose it if there isn’t a player in the squad on merit. Part of moving forward is not being tied to the past. Not having a youth product in the squad doesn’t erase the history and won’t stop the club bringing new players though as it always has.
 
Sunny Jim said:
Sorry for bumping the old thread but...


with McTominay gone, Rashford likely leaving the club am i right thinking that Mainoo is the only youth product in the squad now and the record is in somehow jeopardy?
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What about that young CB?
 
Maluco said:
It should be a record based on merit. If we start just calling someone up with no intention of bringing them on, just to keep the record, it’s a hollow record to have.

We shouldn’t be afraid to lose it if there isn’t a player in the squad on merit. Part of moving forward is not being tied to the past. Not having a youth product in the squad doesn’t erase the history and won’t stop the club bringing new players though as it always has.
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Fair point - if that became an ongoing issue.

But if it's just a specific match where, because of circurmstances, all players perfectly capable of starts (Mainoo, Garnacho, Rashford) were unavailable - then I think it would be a real and unnecessary shame to end the run when you could just as easily put the likes of Heaton on the bench (who is no worse than Bayindir, and either unlikely to be used), or Evans (perfectly capable understudy who does get some starts already), or a youngster with some genuine potential (plenty have featured as unused subs during our injury issues last season and this).

All these players are in the squad already, with first team squad numbers, and already featured in matchday squads - so putting them on the bench at another point hardly makes the record 'hollow'.
 
Maluco said:
It should be a record based on merit. If we start just calling someone up with no intention of bringing them on, just to keep the record, it’s a hollow record to have.

We shouldn’t be afraid to lose it if there isn’t a player in the squad on merit. Part of moving forward is not being tied to the past. Not having a youth product in the squad doesn’t erase the history and won’t stop the club bringing new players though as it always has.
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Absolutely.
 
It’s likely next season we will only have Garnacho and Mainoo in the squad with maybe Amass on the bench depending on progression
 
hellhunter said:
What counts as homegrown? Would that young striker we signed from Arsenal count for example?
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In premier league terms it's someone who has played three seasons for the club before their 21st birthday
 
The Boy said:
In premier league terms it's someone who has played three seasons for the club before their 21st birthday
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Cheers!

Does play in this context mean any minutes for the first team? Registered for the squad (youth players don't need registering, right?)
 
Maluco said:
It should be a record based on merit. If we start just calling someone up with no intention of bringing them on, just to keep the record, it’s a hollow record to have.

We shouldn’t be afraid to lose it if there isn’t a player in the squad on merit. Part of moving forward is not being tied to the past. Not having a youth product in the squad doesn’t erase the history and won’t stop the club bringing new players though as it always has.
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Yep. Also if it gets broken because players are injured then oh well? What exactly is the purpose of keeping it going? Cause it looks good? Yeah it might be an annoying itch to scratch for your brain if we go one game without but it doesn’t really mean anything in the grand scheme of things.
 
hellhunter said:
What counts as homegrown? Would that young striker we signed from Arsenal count for example?
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It’s in the op.

…what constitutes a homegrown player – have to have signed before the age of 18, played at a junior level below the first team at United and not to have played for another team at senior level.
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top1whoisman said:
It’s in the op.
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Though that seems to have changed a little. Toby Collyer counted and United website explained why at the time...

The historic academy graduate methodology for all players signed before 1 July 2012, is as follows:

- Signed for Manchester United before turning 18
- Never played senior professional football for any other club
- Played fixtures for an academy team

For any player signed after 1 July 2012 (Introduction of EPPP and creation of PL2):

- Signed for Manchester United before turning 21
- Never played senior professional football for any other club
- Played fixtures for an academy team

Congratulations for the remarkable achievement, Toby!
 
Bertie Wooster said:
Though that seems to have changed a little. Toby Collyer counted and United website explained why at the time...

The historic academy graduate methodology for all players signed before 1 July 2012, is as follows:

- Signed for Manchester United before turning 18
- Never played senior professional football for any other club
- Played fixtures for an academy team

For any player signed after 1 July 2012 (Introduction of EPPP and creation of PL2):

- Signed for Manchester United before turning 21
- Never played senior professional football for any other club
- Played fixtures for an academy team

Congratulations for the remarkable achievement, Toby!
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Yeah that was what United decided to do. Tony still doesn't consider Collier as a United academy graduate because he was 18 when he signed.
 
Solius said:
Yep. Also if it gets broken because players are injured then oh well? What exactly is the purpose of keeping it going? Cause it looks good? Yeah it might be an annoying itch to scratch for your brain if we go one game without but it doesn’t really mean anything in the grand scheme of things.
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It's a record to be proud of to me. If it doesn't mean making compromises I'd love to see it continue.
 
I'm sure Amorim will promote someone from the academy. Over the course of this season or the summer.

Even if that doesn't happen, this record will almost certainly be unbeatable. It will have to end some day.
 
I’d be surprised if the club isn’t aware of it and managers aren’t under instructions to keep the record going as it’s such an impressive stretch.

However, if that’s the case it almost makes it a bit of an artificial record if it’s only continued because the manager was obligated to put an academy player on the bench instead of their preferred choice.
 
Pexbo said:
I’d be surprised if the club isn’t aware of it and managers aren’t under instructions to keep the record going as it’s such an impressive stretch.

However, if that’s the case it almost makes it a bit of an artificial record if it’s only continued because the manager was obligated to put an academy player on the bench instead of their preferred choice.
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Fortunately at United the higher-ups don't get involved in squad selections. The club of course is aware of it as is Amorim, but I don't think anyone is forcing it to continue.
 
If it's just about being in the squad/on the bench, I don't see why we would have any problems?

Only Mazraoui, Shaw and Mount who's injured/doubtful currently.
 
AltiUn said:
It's a good point, but for what it's worth there's definitely a few from the current crop who I think would be worthy of a part in the first team.
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Perhaps so, but if they're good/ready enough, they will be in the squad. If not, they won't. And when more or less the whole first team squad is fit, it's difficult for those 16-19 year old players to get a chance. As it should be.
 
If Kobbie was injured on sunday and Rashford + Garnacho were dropped regardless that squad space would go to either Evans or an academy player anyway I imagine.
 
top1whoisman said:
It's a record to be proud of to me. If it doesn't mean making compromises I'd love to see it continue.
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I’m sure everyone would but it breaking because Mainoo/Garnacho get injured or don’t make the squad doesn’t make it any less impressive, and it would carry on after that too.
 
Solius said:
I’m sure everyone would but it breaking because Mainoo/Garnacho get injured or don’t make the squad doesn’t make it any less impressive, and it would carry on after that too.
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Yeah fair enough. Although it would be a new record of 1 game, then 2, then 3 etc... A bit different to 4,284. The consecutiveness is the impressive part about the record.
 
Whilst I get the merit of the "it should be based on merit" argument, having 1 academy product (however that is defined) in the matchday squad is not a huge ask. Whether an academy product in the first team or a member of the youth yeam who is doing well, we should aim to preserve that tradition. Its not a huge sacrifice to keep an element of the club that has now become part of our identity.
 
The Irish Connection said:
Just bring Alvaro back to be safe. His stats are nearly as good as A. Davies and his wages would be 2/3rds lower.
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He's not as good as Davies full stop, I like Alvaro but there's so many better options knocking about
 
It shouldn't become a tick box exercise just to keep the run going. There's lots of talent in the academy though. I'm all in favour of rewarding hard work with a place in the match day squad.
 
To be fair, to everyone saying "the spot should be earned" etc. that's slightly short sighted. In theory, yes. But in actuality, it's not an exact science to find if a player is good enough to make the step up. Look at Rashford.

The statistic is much more about sending a message to the academy that yes, there is always a place for you in the first team. That route will always be open to you, you'll always have a chance of making it if you work hard and step up at the right moment. That's pretty powerful and I think ending that would be an awful message to send to the academy and the academy staff which would have much further reaching repercussions than you'd expect. United is a place that trusts in youth, that youth will step up when called upon. And part of that requires a bit of blind trust on the clubs part.
 
AltiUn said:
He's not as good as Davies full stop, I like Alvaro but there's so many better options knocking about
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I don't know. I think for the price and wages compared to other options and especially at wing back, I would be delighted with him.
 
Apparently Forest also have a similar streak going, stretching back to 1941. [source]

Nottingham Forest have preserved their record of having a homegrown player in every matchday squad since 1941 by including 18-year-old Zach Abbott on the bench at Everton.

The club’s run, which stretches back 4,084 games, had been put under threat due to the suspension of Ryan Yates.

But Nuno Espirito Santo included defender Yates on as a substitute at Goodison Park, to keep the record going.
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It's nice in a way but doesn't mean as much as it once did. Very watered down, even compared 20-25 years ago when the game was already global.

Up to 9 players sitting on the bench now in the league and even more in Europe, is it up to 11 or 13? It all started when it was 0. It was 2 or 3 when Giggs broke through, 5 I think when it was Beckham, Butt, Neville brothers etc.

It once implied a kid that was spotted playing Sunday league football or for his school at the ages of 11-15, perhaps even younger. This showed more skill in talent spotting, dilligence and hard work to uncover these talents and then there was the nurture element. Having these kids with the club for a long period of time, develpoing their talent, teaching them and hopefully help them grow up and blossom into successful footballers and human beings.

Now it can include transfer fees being paid to poach players from notable clubs all around the world when they're older, or encouraging them not to sign pro contracts with them. Much less skill involved. You can watch U17 world cups on the telly, UEFA youth league too, or go to big tournaments featuring Barcelona, Bayen Munich, River Plate, Ajax youth teams etc. Just buy them and call them your own, even though you've actually done very little to help them develop. They're really the products of those clubs. It's just finishing school, if even that by the time you get them. Many more talents are too obvious to fail at that sort of age.

Big difference between Mainoo/Rashford and Garnacho or Collyer if United are claiming him, and what it all means, why it's admirable and the romance of it all. Or going back, was much more special when you had to be one of 11 to make it, or one of 13/16 rather than 20+

If you somehow can't do it now, it means there's something very wrong going on at the club considering how much easier it is so it's worth keeping from that perspective. It 100% is something we should strive to keep even if it's not as impressive or simply not as nice an achievement these days.
 
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Uniquim said:
Apparently Forest also have a similar streak going, stretching back to 1941. [source]
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It's two different records as far as I am aware.

United's record comprises all players under 18 and played in our youth team.

Forest's record comprises all players who played for Forest as their first club which will include players 18 and over.

The original criteria is:

a) played in Academy (or historical equivalent) - you can't exactly say someone is a youth player if never played in the youth team

b) never played first team football anywhere else - if they have already played first team football then their development suggests they were ready and you can't really take credit for that

c) Joined the club at 17 years-old or younger before being a professional

Forest's record is impressive, but if we added 18 year-old players then we would have another 20+ players who would be added to the list and the consecutive run of matches would go back another few hundred games.

I dislike the concept of changing criteria all the time and both United and the FA/PL are always doing it.

PR matters more than facts
 
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