30 goals in all comps for Rashford - first player to do so since RvP 12/13

crossy1686 said:
I think it's about time we revisit whether or not allowing newbies to post in these threads has really worked.
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Do you really believe crap like this or are you just a WUM.
Do you think all newbies are like 12 yo and have never watched football before this season or something.
My kids are probably older than you :lol:
 
ifightdragons said:
Yes. We should ban differing and unpopular opinions.

I think Rashford has had a very prolific season in terms of goals. There's no denying that, he has absolutely improved his runs and finishing.

I still am of the opinion that he doesn't score enough goals in the Premier League. And that his form is way too inconsistent, as it has been for every season since his debut. He goes through long dry spells every season.

And I think he is a possession waster, and lazy when having to defend or track back.

He is not my type of player, and I think he suits a counter attacking side a lot more than the possession based style that Ten Hag is known for at Ajax and FC Utrecht, but is yet to implement at United. I think he gives the ball away far too much, and has poor decision making.

Ironically, he was actually very good yesterday against Chelsea. He made the right choices, passed well, and kept the ball in the team. He rarely plays that well, even when he scores.
He was still lazy when defending though, but no one is perfect.

Rashford is also incredibly valuable in the market, and our most sellable asset, so I would sell him. He is easily worth 100 mill. I would be very happy to see him go, especially since his wages are way too high, which sets an unecessarily high ceiling in our wage structure, wherein more players will demand similar wages.

But, of course he will stay. Everyone loves him. I can understand and appreciate why, I just don't agree. At least I can agree that he is a very useful impact player, as he can beat defenders who are tired.

Poor you, for having to read a differing opinion to yours. If you disagree, feel free to actually argue and elaborate why. Or don't. No one cares what you, me or anyone thinks.
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It’s not a different opinion, it’s bullshit based on an agenda certain posters have made up because we’ve been shite for years.

Tell me, if not Rashford then who would you have had leading the line for United over recent years? At the very least he’s as good as Saha and he was pretty damn good so let’s stop making bullshit excuses to talk the lad down and just enjoy him.
 
Eric_the_Red99 said:
The hate boner that some people still have for this guy after his best season ever - one of the best seasons any of our players have had in recent years - is truly bizarre.

No doubt if a non-English player had just had a similar season in the Dutch or German leagues, these people would be creaming themselves at the prospect of us signing them for £100m+. And yet they can’t get excited about one of our own academy graduates, a local lad, achieving such heights for us, having cost us absolutely nothing in transfer fees.

It’s just pointless arguing with such people now. I say just leave them to their weird hate.
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A lot of our online fan base are weird. Some genuinely seem to dislike Mancunians being involved in any context.
 
crossy1686 said:
It’s not a different opinion, it’s bullshit based on an agenda certain posters have made up because we’ve been shite for years.

Tell me, if not Rashford then who would you have had leading the line for United over recent years? At the very least he’s as good as Saha and he was pretty damn good so let’s stop making bullshit excuses to talk the lad down and just enjoy him.
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Yes, just call someone who disagrees bullshit, that's a solid argument.

My measure of a good player goes beyond goal tally.

Who would I rather have on our left wing instead of Rashford? There are so many, though some are unrealistic alternatives:
Mitoma (Brighton), Grealish (City), Kvaratskhelia (Napoli), Trossard (Arsenal), Martinelli (Arsenal). I think Grealish would be the best fit. Those are just a few that I think would suit Ten Hag's United better in the long run. I can easily name more players, but I like to stick to those I have watched aplenty in full matches. Several of these are of course not available, but that's besides the point. You asked who I would rather have, and I can easily think of many. I'll explain why -- again -- further down

In our squad right now there aren't many great alternatives on either wings. Sancho has his own major flaws, and so does Antony. Garnacho is still young and shouldn't be overplayed, and Elanga is simply not good enough. Pellistri hasn't played nearly enough to even know his limits, but he would probably have played more if he was ready and good enough. At least, I think that's a reasonable assessment.

When we start with Rashford, we are setting up for hoofing it and playing on the break. This means we will be spending a significant portion of the game chasing the ball out of possession, which naturally leads to more chances conceded, and less chances created. It also means that our left channels will be exposed and exploited, because he won't commit to defending or counter-pressing. I don't think that type of football helps us in the long run.

But as of right now, starting Rashford might be our only chance of beating City at the moment. So in the final, I'd probably start Rashford. If we have to play counter attacking football, Rashford is one of the best options in the entire world. He has the pace, and he has a powerful shot on him.

The crux of my argument is that I believe that we have to move away from defaulting to that style of football to become a dominant force.
It's not as much a critique on Rashford, as it is on our collective inability to control games. I just think he is not a good fit for what we are moving towards.

And just to reply to your post below:
I'm probably older than you.
Not that it should matter either way.
If a 12 year old has an opinion and can argue it properly, I'd commend him for it, instead of deriding him for being born "too late".
 
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I don't think Rashford is at a level anymore where style of play or tactics come into it. However you want to et up the team he would have to be in it, because you're not going to find another player who'll get you 30 goals from a wide position and can also stand in as a centre forward. Not to mention a fair chunk of his goals he either has no right to score or creates for himself.

United will be able to keep possession and be less reliant on counter attacks when they find a centre forward who is actually half useful and doesn't either lose the ball 75% of the time or spend the whole game half attempting to do their job. And also when they have more than two midfielders in their squad who can play a forward pass through a defensive line. This maybe will mean less goals for Rashford but it wont really be a problem because it would mean not being reliant on him to score all of the goals our centre forwards don't as well as his own. Or maybe it'll just mean we win more games and score more goals, and actually benefit him because teams wont find it as easy to double or triple up on him whenever we aren't counter attacking.
 
noodlehair said:
I don't think Rashford is at a level anymore where style of play or tactics come into it. However you want to et up the team he would have to be in it, because you're not going to find another player who'll get you 30 goals from a wide position and can also stand in as a centre forward. Not to mention a fair chunk of his goals he either has no right to score or creates for himself.

United will be able to keep possession and be less reliant on counter attacks when they find a centre forward who is actually half useful and doesn't either lose the ball 75% of the time or spend the whole game half attempting to do their job. And also when they have more than two midfielders in their squad who can play a forward pass through a defensive line. This maybe will mean less goals for Rashford but it wont really be a problem because it would mean not being reliant on him to score all of the goals our centre forwards don't as well as his own. Or maybe it'll just mean we win more games and score more goals, and actually benefit him because teams wont find it as easy to double or triple up on him whenever we aren't counter attacking.
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Very fair points.

Our strikers are not nearly good enough.
But, and this is actually true anecdotally (by watching the games) and statistically: Neither Martial or Weghorst give up possession a lot, and 75% is just obscene. They don't even give the ball away half the time. They are in fact both quite good at holding up the ball and linkng up play.

That being said, they are not nearly good enough inside the box, especially Weghorst. We are obviously crying out for two new strikers. But to criticize their hold-up play is disingenuous. That's really one of the few things about them that's actually quite good.

I can totally see the use-case for Rashford, once we bolster our midfield and strikers. I've been pretty clear that he has some extreme abilities. At the same time, I still think he lacks the discipline and decision-making to be our best option in the market.

As some people have lazily suggested, I don't hate Rashford. I've never hated any United player, and I wouldn't spend energy hating anyone I don't even know. I quite like him, he seems an alright lad, and is lightning fast when he times his runs correctly. I just don't find his overall skillset to be anywhere near a perfect fit for a team that's looking to control the game.

Then again, if he starts playing like he did against Chelsea, week in and week out, I'd be forced to reconsider my views. Because in that game, he was not at all wasteful in possession, and he almost always made the right decision to pass or go past his man when appropriate. He was disciplined in possession, and that resulted in us creating a ton of chances from our left side. He was still lazy and not disciplined when defending, which is disappointing, but par for the course. Some players are not bothered to track back, and even the likes of Messi are guilty of this.

If he can keep on playing like he did against Chelsea, instead of running straight into defenders and lose the ball, I'd be very happy if he stays for ten more years. But that was truly one of the few games for years that he has been this disciplined in possession. I just don't see that happening on a regular basis.

But, I hope that it will. If he (and everyone else) can continue to do that, it would make us so much better and reliable in creating chances, and spending less time chasing after the opposition to recover lost possession.

Hopefully Ten Hag can instill this in his game, and Ten Hag mentioned in an interview with Viaplay yesterday that he has to improve certain facets of his game. Those are very likely the exact same things he is referring to, so I'd wager a bet that Ten Hag would agree that he needs to improve his ball retention.

On a side note: He also mentioned that he wanted 40 goals from his next season. But he must be very pleased with him reaching 30. He should be, it's a phenomenal achievement for a wide attacker, no doubt. It's more a statement to spark motivation to further push his game for next season, which is good management. Like Ten Hag has said so many times already: Good is not good enough. It's the perfect mantra -- in lieu of a better term -- for a team vying to be the best.
 
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ifightdragons said:
Yes, just call someone who disagrees bullshit, that's a solid argument.

My measure of a good player goes beyond goal tally.

Who would I rather have on our left wing instead of Rashford? There are so many, though some are unrealistic alternatives:
Mitoma (Brighton), Grealish (City), Kvaratskhelia (Napoli), Trossard (Arsenal), Martinelli (Arsenal). I think Grealish would be the best fit. Those are just a few that I think would suit Ten Hag's United better in the long run. I can easily name more players, but I like to stick to those I have watched aplenty in full matches. Several of these are of course not available, but that's besides the point. You asked who I would rather have, and I can easily think of many. I'll explain why -- again -- further down

In our squad right now there aren't many great alternatives on either wings. Sancho has his own major flaws, and so does Antony. Garnacho is still young and shouldn't be overplayed, and Elanga is simply not good enough. Pellistri hasn't played nearly enough to even know his limits, but he would probably have played more if he was ready and good enough. At least, I think that's a reasonable assessment.

When we start with Rashford, we are setting up for hoofing it and playing on the break. This means we will be spending a significant portion of the game chasing the ball out of possession, which naturally leads to more chances conceded, and less chances created. It also means that our left channels will be exposed and exploited, because he won't commit to defending or counter-pressing. I don't think that type of football helps us in the long run.

But as of right now, starting Rashford might be our only chance of beating City at the moment. So in the final, I'd probably start Rashford. If we have to play counter attacking football, Rashford is one of the best options in the entire world. He has the pace, and he has a powerful shot on him.

The crux of my argument is that I believe that we have to move away from defaulting to that style of football to become a dominant force.
It's not as much a critique on Rashford, as it is on our collective inability to control games. I just think he is not a good fit for what we are moving towards.

And just to reply to your post below:
I'm probably older than you.
Not that it should matter either way.
If a 12 year old has an opinion and can argue it properly, I'd commend him for it, instead of deriding him for being born "too late".
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Mate stop bothering. You are not going to change the climate around here and you won't be able to convince people, that reality has more layers between "player A good" and "player B bad". Just look at this thread and to a big degree the ETH thread as well - you are writing lines and lines about reasonable (the extent of that might be debatable) points only to then be greeted by accusations of "hate", "agendas" and "where would we be without him". Obviously those points have not the slightest to do with the points you raised but here we are. There are many people around here, who seemingly have a very difficult time when asked to stand different view points and opinions and cancel culture arrived here just as well. Some people just are incapable of standing ambivalance and insecurity, add a certain group dynamic and self-justification and you are right where you are. You could bring the best points possible to the table, as soon as you are seen as some sort of adversery, its over.

Your points will not be met with open ears, there will be defence from the get go. It is constructive criticism, save yourself the time, it will only end in disappointment. I can see your points though and, to a degree, share your concerns. But I think, Rashford is young and seems intelligent enough to add some new capabilities to his arsenal plus he has shown, that a more rounded player is in there somewhere in the 2019/2020 season.
 
Poster 1 - "When we start with Rashford, we are setting up for hoofing it and playing on the break."

Poster 2 - mate don't bother, you made your points well, it was constructive criticism, all hugs and kisses.
 
roonster09 said:
Poster 1 - "When we start with Rashford, we are setting up for hoofing it and playing on the break."

Poster 2 - mate don't bother, you made your points well, it was constructive criticism, all hugs and kisses.
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Redcafe is a better place now that you took 15 seconds of your precious time to write such a constructive reply.
 
i swear its only this place that our player scoring 30 goals this season ends up been a toxic back and forth arguments. Jesus
 
NZT-One said:
Mate stop bothering. You are not going to change the climate around here and you won't be able to convince people, that reality has more layers between "player A good" and "player B bad". Just look at this thread and to a big degree the ETH thread as well - you are writing lines and lines about reasonable (the extent of that might be debatable) points only to then be greeted by accusations of "hate", "agendas" and "where would we be without him". Obviously those points have not the slightest to do with the points you raised but here we are. There are many people around here, who seemingly have a very difficult time when asked to stand different view points and opinions and cancel culture arrived here just as well. Some people just are incapable of standing ambivalance and insecurity, add a certain group dynamic and self-justification and you are right where you are. You could bring the best points possible to the table, as soon as you are seen as some sort of adversery, its over.

Your points will not be met with open ears, there will be defence from the get go. It is constructive criticism, save yourself the time, it will only end in disappointment. I can see your points though and, to a degree, share your concerns. But I think, Rashford is young and seems intelligent enough to add some new capabilities to his arsenal plus he has shown, that a more rounded player is in there somewhere in the 2019/2020 season.
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You are right. I obviously expected my points would be met with disagreement. Everyone knows how beloved Rashford is for the majority of our fanbase.

But I didn't expect that there would be very little well-constructed arguments to oppose my views. It's a shame, but probably my own fault for expecting more reasonable arguments.

There were some very decent replies though, from a couple of respectable posters that actually forced me to re-assess some of my viewpoints. That makes it worth it to me.

Case in point: You mentioned that Rashford has unleashed (or perhaps) unrealized potential, and that he has shown glimpses of it, especially in the 2019/20 season. That's a fair shout, and I think we saw that against Chelsea as well.

Cheers, mate.
 
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roonster09 said:
No problem, trying to help here and there.
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You certainly are doing a great job. The people's army thanks you for your services, I am sure. But lets try to be constructive again. Wouldn't you agree, that running in behind is currently Rashfords biggest strength or attacking weapon? And wouldn't you agree, that playing balls in behind is Brunos biggest trait as well?

So even if ETH isn't actively setting us up to "hoof the ball" (and I probably agree with you that isn't his objective) that is what is happening on the pitch (and to our benefit of course, why wouldn't you use your best players best traits).

Ceteris said:
i swear its only this place that our player scoring 30 goals this season ends up been a toxic back and forth arguments. Jesus
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Ah toxic is also onboard now. BS bingo in full flow I see. Lets see how long it takes for somebody to question the supporter status because "a real supporter has to be happy".
 
NZT-One said:
You certainly are doing a great job. The people's army thanks you for your services, I am sure. But lets try to be constructive again. Wouldn't you agree, that running in behind is currently Rashfords biggest strength or attacking weapon? And wouldn't you agree, that playing balls in behind is Brunos biggest trait as well?

So even if ETH isn't actively setting us up to "hoof the ball" (and I probably agree with you that isn't his objective) that is what is happening on the pitch (and to our benefit of course, why wouldn't you use your best players best traits).


Ah toxic is also onboard now. BS bingo in full flow I see. Lets see how long it takes for somebody to question the supporter status because "a real supporter has to be happy".
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You should check what hoof ball means. Yes running in behind is one of Rashford's strength, so is switching the ball to shooting position and taking shot quickly, so is his dribbling ability outside (which he isn't doing as much), so is his striking technique.

There are plenty of strengths for Bruno, what you mentioned is just one of it.

Please don't use "constructive criticism" for every shit post made. There are lot of posters who tag themselves with the posters who makes good points and also add the tag "constructive criticism" for their shit posts.

And your post "But lets try to be constructive again" fecking hell :lol:.

Now I get your posts in EtH thread if all you see is hoofball.
 
NZT-One said:
You certainly are doing a great job. The people's army thanks you for your services, I am sure. But lets try to be constructive again. Wouldn't you agree, that running in behind is currently Rashfords biggest strength or attacking weapon? And wouldn't you agree, that playing balls in behind is Brunos biggest trait as well?

So even if ETH isn't actively setting us up to "hoof the ball" (and I probably agree with you that isn't his objective) that is what is happening on the pitch (and to our benefit of course, why wouldn't you use your best players best traits).


Ah toxic is also onboard now. BS bingo in full flow I see. Lets see how long it takes for somebody to question the supporter status because "a real supporter has to be happy".
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Yes i call it toxic, there is a performance thread that we can all discuss how the lad has played this season and what he needs to improve on, this thread was about celebrating a milestone for the season. It should really be congratulations all round but see what it has turned to?

You have people talking about better alternatives that play at other clubs, so what's Rashford crime? that he scored 30 goals?
 
He’s been great!

Rashford, Casemiro, Martinez, Shaw and Bruno have all be quality.
 
Ceteris said:
Yes i call it toxic, there is a performance thread that we can all discuss how the lad has played this season and what he needs to improve on, this thread was about celebrating a milestone for the season. It should really be congratulations all round but see what it has turned to?

You have people talking about better alternatives that play at other clubs, so what's Rashford crime? that he scored 30 goals?
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That's true, this probably could have been a discussion better suited for the performance thread.

It was just the thread about Rashford I actually saw on the front page.

And to be fair, I've touched upon his goalscoring milestone a bunch of times in this thread, and made it relevant to my argument.

I've also praised him for it, several times in this very thread.

So I see your point, but I don't agree that a thread should just consist of one-sided opinions and congratulatory posts. This is not an awards ceremony or a eulogy, it's a forum for debates.

Or perhaps more accurately, a forum where attempts to debate is met with some sort of weird cancel culture, unfounded accusations of trolling and hate, and just absurd personal personal attacks.

If anything's "toxic" -- which is a word I would never use about anyone disagreeing -- that's it.

If you're calling my differing opinions on Rashford toxic, then I'm as far removed from understanding or agreeing with you as possible.
 
roonster09 said:
You should check what hoof ball means. Yes running in behind is one of Rashford's strength, so is switching the ball to shooting position and taking shot quickly, so is his dribbling ability outside (which he isn't doing as much), so is his striking technique.

There are plenty of strengths for Bruno, what you mentioned is just one of it.

Please don't use "constructive criticism" for every shit post made. There are lot of posters who tag themselves with the posters who makes good points and also add the tag "constructive criticism" for their shit posts.

And your post "But lets try to be constructive again" fecking hell :lol:.

Now I got your posts in EtH thread if all you see is hoofball.
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I'll skip the last few lines because theres no point to be won.

As far as I am aware of, there is no DIN nr. associated with the term hoof ball. For me, it means, playing it long and in behind. If it means something different to your, I am happy to hear it.

About Rashford I said his "biggest strength", so I am happy you agree with it. Don't know exactly what you mean with the switching to shooting position means and I wouldn't agree with the dribbling aspect but that might be the result of me thinking, that the player himself overestimates his dribbling ability, which then results in bad decisions like running into 3 people. Not always of course but often enough to notice it.

Ok so we established, that running in behind is one of Rashfords strength (we seemingly not agree about if it his biggest strength or not). We also seemingly agree on Bruno. So we are making use of two our best players biggest strength by playing in long. As long as we are doing it, we often lose possession. Not a criticism, it is what it is, long balls in behind are high risk, high reward and more often than not, they don't come off. Again, not an issue per se because if you defend well, it is enough when it works just one single time to win 1:0.

I am sure you are aware that City and Liverpool (and Chelsea) over the last years played with an above 60% possession average. This isn't me saying this is good or bad, it is just a description of the status quo. Valueing possession is something, the more successful teams in the league do. And when we want to re-enter this group, we agree, that we probably have to go down that route as well.

Going down that route MIGHT lead us into a situation, where we can't make use of the strength of our two best players as often as we are doing it now. Would you say, that this conclusion is wrong? Don't put a label like "true", "right", "wrong" on it, I just want to understand, if even the "logic" behind it, is already something, you don't accept.
 
Just one time i'd like to see him surrounded by a team of title-calibre players. I firmly believe he can hit 30 plus PL goals in a season.
 
Ceteris said:
Yes i call it toxic, there is a performance thread that we can all discuss how the lad has played this season and what he needs to improve on, this thread was about celebrating a milestone for the season. It should really be congratulations all round but see what it has turned to?

You have people talking about better alternatives that play at other clubs, so what's Rashford crime? that he scored 30 goals?
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Look mate, nothing wrong with your take on it but the bolded parts are basically just your subjective standpoints. I can only advise you to use the ignore function, if anything that occurs outside of your comfort zone is making you feel irritated.
 
NZT-One said:
I'll skip the last few lines because theres no point to be won.

As far as I am aware of, there is no DIN nr. associated with the term hoof ball. For me, it means, playing it long and in behind. If it means something different to your, I am happy to hear it.

About Rashford I said his "biggest strength", so I am happy you agree with it. Don't know exactly what you mean with the switching to shooting position means and I wouldn't agree with the dribbling aspect but that might be the result of me thinking, that the player himself overestimates his dribbling ability, which then results in bad decisions like running into 3 people. Not always of course but often enough to notice it.

Ok so we established, that running in behind is one of Rashfords strength (we seemingly not agree about if it his biggest strength or not). We also seemingly agree on Bruno. So we are making use of two our best players biggest strength by playing in long. As long as we are doing it, we often lose possession. Not a criticism, it is what it is, long balls in behind are high risk, high reward and more often than not, they don't come off. Again, not an issue per se because if you defend well, it is enough when it works just one single time to win 1:0.

I am sure you are aware that City and Liverpool (and Chelsea) over the last years played with an above 60% possession average. This isn't me saying this is good or bad, it is just a description of the status quo. Valueing possession is something, the more successful teams in the league do. And when we want to re-enter this group, we agree, that we probably have to go down that route as well.

Going down that route MIGHT lead us into a situation, where we can't make use of the strength of our two best players as often as we are doing it now. Would you say, that this conclusion is wrong? Don't put a label like "true", "right", "wrong" on it, I just want to understand, if even the "logic" behind it, is already something, you don't accept.
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No, i didn't say that was Rashford's biggest strength. You should read properly and I'm not going to waste time reading long ass post built on wrong premise.
 
ifightdragons said:
That's true, this probably could have been a discussion better suited for the performance thread.

It was just the thread about Rashford I actually saw on the front page.

And to be fair, I've touched upon his goalscoring milestone a bunch of times in this thread, and made it relevant to my argument.

I've also praised him for it, several times in this very thread.

So I see your point, but I don't agree that a thread should just consist of one-sided opinions and congratulatory posts. This is not an awards ceremony or a eulogy, it's a forum for debates.

Or perhaps more accurately, a forum where attempts to debate is met with some sort of weird cancel culture, unfounded accusations of trolling and hate, and just absurd personal personal attacks.

If anything's "toxic" -- which is a word I would never use about anyone disagreeing -- that's it.

If you're calling my differing opinions on Rashford toxic, then I'm as far removed from understanding or agreeing with you as possible.
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I use toxic not because I disagree with you or anyone else.

I am referring to the fact that all the replies have taken away from what the actual thread was for.

It's like the conversations have skewed away from what the thread is supposed to be
 
roonster09 said:
No, i didn't say that was Rashford's biggest strength. You should read properly and I'm not going to waste time reading long ass post built on wrong premise.
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Ok, that seals it then.

You're admitting to not bothering to read something that hardly could be presented and argued in a more logical manner, whilst also confirming that you actually don't read what you are responding to. Ironically, you claim others don't read your posts properly, which they evidently, and oh so clearly, do.

Yet, you engage in it by deriding those who disagree with you.

My points may come across more acerbic and absolute than his, so to a certain -- yet very limited degree -- I can understand your frustrations and your sensitive feelings being hurt.

But when this is your reply to a reasonable post like that... That's the forum summed up in a nutshell. That's actually quite sad, how angry and sensitive you are to everyone disagreeing. Honestly, I feel bad for you. It must be tiresome.
 
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roonster09 said:
No, i didn't say that was Rashford's biggest strength. You should read properly and I'm not going to waste time reading long ass post built on wrong premise.
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Maybe you should take your own advice :D FFS I talked about his "biggest strength", you replied with a list of his strengths and I concluded that we seem to agree that running in behind is a strength of his.
But yeah, lets leave it at that. Thanks for making my points as obvious as possible.
 
ifightdragons said:
Ok, that seals it then.

You're admitting to not bothering to read something that hardly could be presented and argued in a more logical manner.

Yet, you engage in it by deriding him

My points may came across more acerbic and absolute than his, so to a certain -- yet very limited degree -- I can understand your frustrations and your sensitive feelings being hurt.

But when this is your reply to a reasonable post like that... That's the forum summed up in a nutshell. That's actually quite sad, how angry and sensitive you are to everyone disagreeing. Honestly, I feel bad for you. It must tiresome.
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I don't think he needs a side kick, but in any case you should read it properly.

I know it might be too much information to process, so I have highlighted the part in bold.

roonster09 said:
No, i didn't say that was Rashford's biggest strength. You should read properly and I'm not going to waste time reading long ass post built on wrong premise.
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NZT-One said:
Maybe you should take your own advice :D FFS I talked about his "biggest strength", you replied with a list of his strengths and I concluded that we seem to agree that running in behind is a strength of his.
But yeah, lets leave it at that. Thanks for making my points as obvious as possible.
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I said one of his biggest strength and you replied saying "so you agree with me, this is Rashford's biggest strength" and then built some points on that.

Leaving all that, maybe you should start watching 2022-23 season games if you think we play hoof ball or all we do is just kick the ball behind defense. When there is space and you have quick attackers, thats used by every club, even the club like Liverpool who used Salah's pace with VVD and TAA passing.
 
Ceteris said:
I use toxic not because I disagree with you or anyone else.

I am referring to the fact that all the replies have taken away from what the actual thread was for.

It's like the conversations have skewed away from what the thread is supposed to be
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Look, I believe you that you do not intend to be personal or something but calling something "toxic" is accusing of ill-meant intentions. If you don't agree, do not agree. If you want to ignore, ignore. If you want to write your take on stuff, go for it. But lets not fire shots at people based on their supposed intentions. Again, I am sure, you may not intend to do it but this is what it feels like for people reading such posts.
 
roonster09 said:
I said one of his biggest strength and you replied saying "so you agree with me, this is Rashford's biggest strength" and then built some points on that.

Leaving all that, maybe you should start watching 2022-23 season games if you think we play hoof ball or all we do is just kick the ball behind defense. When there is space and you have quick attackers, thats used by every club, even the club like Liverpool who used Salah's pace with VVD and TAA passing.
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Granted, when a pass like this is on, many clubs are using it. But those teams end up with higher season averages of possession so the assumption would be plausible that they do not do it as often as we. Maybe you can describe what you mean, when you say hoof ball, I think I gave my understanding of it.

(Would repeat here for your convenience but I don't want you to be bothered by too much text again ;) )
 
NZT-One said:
Granted, when a pass like this is on, many clubs are using it. But those teams end up with higher season averages of possession so the assumption would be plausible that they do not do it as often as we. Maybe you can describe what you mean, when you say hoof ball, I think I gave my understanding of it.

(Would repeat here for your convenience but I don't want you to be bothered by too much text again ;) )
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You made a simplistic conclusion that more possession or in our case less possession means more direct passes, we don't have higher possession as we don't control the game, we look for vertical passes much more than measured risks. Check the below table, the teams that are in top 3 in possession are also in top 3 when it comes to playing the ball behind the defense.

This is one his goals video, not sure if it has all 30 goals but how many of them are the goals from "hoof ball"? Rashford scored more goals from tap in, headers or beating defenders than running-in behind from Bruno's passes.



Anyways hoof ball is something that Stoke, Burnley played. Defenders just kicks it as soon as they get it to the target man, who either holds the ball or flicks on for second attacker.

Btw do you think Scholes was hoofing the ball when he was playing passes to Valencia or any of our wingers to set them 1v1 against defender?

Also from whoscored definition, Through Ball- An attempted/accurate pass between opposition players in their defensive line to find an onrushing teammate (running through on goal)
guess which team has more players (in top 20) playing through passes per 90 mins?

City and Liverpool have 2 players, averages close to 2 through ball per 90 mins, Liverpool pair averages 1.6, ManUtd pair averages around 1.5

Through ballMinsTB per 90 mins
Bruno
35​
3236​
0.97​
KdB
28​
2425​
1.04​
TAA
26​
2842​
0.82​
Gundogan
22​
2359​
0.84​
Salah
13​
3297​
0.35​
Casemiro
11​
2059​
0.48​

If you take team total, ManUtd played 103 through ball, Liverpool 100, City 92. They are the top 3 in PL.

One drawback with this stat is, it doesn't take the space into account, TB is a TB if there is 10 yards behind defense or 50 yards, so for all we know KdB might be playing perfect through ball with only 10 yards between GK and defenders while Bruno might be "Hoofing" it with 50 yards between defenders and GK. To get accurate measure, people should watch every single pass made. Point is, playing the pass behind defense has nothing to do with team's ability to keep possession. It's more to do with how much coach believes in his philosophy of keeping ball and building measured attacks and how good your entire team is on the ball, so much that they back themselves to receive the ball on half turn and play the passes trusting their teammates, and teammates ability to see the pass before they are closed down and again the team's ability to help the player in possession by creating passing angles.
 
I hope ETH reads the Ranty Boi posts and remembers his 30 goal player doesn't fit in with his plans before giving him that massive contract.
 
Also one more "Constructive criticism" is how Rashford gives away possession, so much that we can't build a possession team or he won't fit possession team.

Here are Rashford stats compared to Liverpool attackers who averages 2nd or 3rd in possession this season.

Better pass completion, better dribbles completed, better success rate than 2/4 Liverpool attackers and loses possession less via Miscontrols and getting tackles than 3/4 Liverpool attackers. But somehow Liverpool can build possession based team but we can't because Rashford has pace and Bruno has eye for pass.

RashfordSalahGakpoJotaNunez
# of passes
19.5​
24.6​
17.8​
23​
13.7​
Pass completion
76.5​
76.30%​
74.80%​
74.20%​
64.30%​
Dribbles completed
1.7​
1.29​
1.39​
1.21​
0.96​
Dribble successrate
38.7​
35.9​
46.8​
36.8​
40.9​
Miscontrols
2.57​
2.98​
2.53​
2.76​
2.18​
Dispossessed
1.41​
2.13​
2.22​
1.55​
1.44​
 
roonster09 said:
Also one more "Constructive criticism" is how Rashford gives away possession, so much that we can't build a possession team or he won't fit possession team.

Here are Rashford stats compared to Liverpool attackers who averages 2nd or 3rd in possession this season.

Better pass completion, better dribbles completed, better success rate than 2/4 Liverpool attackers and loses possession less via Miscontrols and getting tackles than 3/4 Liverpool attackers. But somehow Liverpool can build possession based team but we can't because Rashford has pace and Bruno has eye for pass.

RashfordSalahGakpoJotaNunez
# of passes
19.5​
24.6​
17.8​
23​
13.7​
Pass completion
76.5​
76.30%​
74.80%​
74.20%​
64.30%​
Dribbles completed
1.7​
1.29​
1.39​
1.21​
0.96​
Dribble successrate
38.7​
35.9​
46.8​
36.8​
40.9​
Miscontrols
2.57​
2.98​
2.53​
2.76​
2.18​
Dispossessed
1.41​
2.13​
2.22​
1.55​
1.44​
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Any reason you haven't used the ones from City? :) If possible, adjust your table to include Citys, Arsenals and Brightons players, don't know the outcome but would be interesting to know.

Plus I didn't say we CAN'T built a possession based team with Rashford and Bruno. I said, it may contradict them using their biggest strength. Both players are talented enough to adjust better than expected.
 
Well done, he is my Man Utd player of the year, and best left wing forward in the league too.
 
NZT-One said:
Any reason you haven't used the ones from City? :) If possible, adjust your table to include Citys, Arsenals and Brightons players, don't know the outcome but would be interesting to know.

Plus I didn't say we CAN'T built a possession based team with Rashford and Bruno. I said, it may contradict them using their biggest strength. Both players are talented enough to adjust better than expected.
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Because City are outlier in every possible way, Pep teams are special. If you want to check, their 2 best attackers Haaland and KdB have less pass completion than Rashford but they are not wide attackers, so whatever.

Also why Liverpool, because you said this

I am sure you are aware that City and Liverpool (and Chelsea) over the last years played with an above 60% possession average. This isn't me saying this is good or bad, it is just a description of the status quo. Valueing possession is something, the more successful teams in the league do. And when we want to re-enter this group, we agree, that we probably have to go down that route as well.
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Arsenal attackers are on par too, not sure on Brighton. Not sure why it is even relevant when I have added 2 teams who are very good in possession.

RashfordSalahGakpoJotaNunezSakaMartinelli
# of passes
19.5​
24.6​
17.8​
23​
13.7​
30​
26.9​
Pass completion
76.5​
76.30%​
74.80%​
74.20%​
64.30%​
73.80%​
75.20%​
Dribbles completed
1.7​
1.29​
1.39​
1.21​
0.96​
1.7​
1.96​
Dribble successrate
38.7​
35.9​
46.8​
36.8​
40.9​
37.6​
44.7​
Miscontrols
2.57​
2.98​
2.53​
2.76​
2.18​
2.25​
2.68​
Dispossessed
1.41​
2.13​
2.22​
1.55​
1.44​
1.61​
1.81​

You can move goal-posts, back track or come up with more mental gymnastics, it really doesn't matter. You didn't say we can't build possession based system with them in the team, you implied it and it is very clear in your posts.
 
roonster09 said:
Because City are outlier in every possible way, Pep teams are special. If you want to check, their 2 best attackers Haaland and KdB have less pass completion than Rashford but they are not wide attackers, so whatever.

Also why Liverpool, because you said this



Arsenal attackers are on par too, not sure on Brighton. Not sure why it is even relevant when I have added 2 teams who are very good in possession.

RashfordSalahGakpoJotaNunezSakaMartinelli
# of passes
19.5​
24.6​
17.8​
23​
13.7​
30​
26.9​
Pass completion
76.5​
76.30%​
74.80%​
74.20%​
64.30%​
73.80%​
75.20%​
Dribbles completed
1.7​
1.29​
1.39​
1.21​
0.96​
1.7​
1.96​
Dribble successrate
38.7​
35.9​
46.8​
36.8​
40.9​
37.6​
44.7​
Miscontrols
2.57​
2.98​
2.53​
2.76​
2.18​
2.25​
2.68​
Dispossessed
1.41​
2.13​
2.22​
1.55​
1.44​
1.61​
1.81​

You can move goal-posts, back track or come up with more mental gymnastics, it really doesn't matter. You didn't say we can't build possession based system with them in the team, you implied it and it is very clear in your posts.
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You need to get this info to the club before we give him a contract. PLEASE.
 
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